Modern Intermediate Calibers 005: The .300 AAC Blackout

On the right are two .300 AAC Blackout rounds, alongside the green-tipped 5.56mm and shorter .221 Remington Fireball that serves as the round's parent case.

On the right are two .300 AAC Blackout rounds, alongside the green-tipped 5.56mm and shorter .221 Remington Fireball that serves as the round's parent case.

Previously, we talked about the Soviet 7.62x39mm caliber, which was paired with the famous Kalashnikov automatic rifle. With its much heavier bullet, larger caliber, and lower velocity, the 7.62x39mm contrasts heavily with the US 5.56mm caliber, and US weapons manufacturers took note. The .300 AAC Blackout is in many ways similar to the 7.62x39mm caliber, being – like the 6.8 SPC – inspired by it, but designed to add new capabilities. The origin of the Blackout lies in the earlier .300 Whisper, a wildcat developed by JD Jones from the .221 Remington Fireball to fire both heavy subsonic projectiles and lighter supersonic rounds with ballistic characteristics similar to the 7.62x39mm, while being highly compatible with existing AR-15 type rifles. Versus the older Whisper, the Blackout is little changed, but its introduction, backed by the force of Advanced Armament Corp, Remington, Barnes, and other companies, made it virtually an overnight success on the US civilian market.

Now, let’s take a look at the ballistics:

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You can see how the heavy bullet subsonic load retains velocity and energy very well, and has low wind drift due to its mass, but also has very poor drop characteristics, restricting its usefulness to a short-range, special applications round.

Ammunition for the .300 AAC Blackout is in the middle of the pack for overall weight, with lighter 110 and 115 grain loads weighing about 14 grams (216 grains). However, the heavier special subsonic loads are much heavier, at about 21 grams (324 grains), very similar to the .45 ACP pistol caliber.

Note: All ballistic calculations are done with JBM’s Trajectory calculator, using the ballistic coefficient appropriate to the projectile being modeled, and assuming an AR-15 as a firing platform. Also, keep in mind that there is no single true velocity for a given round; velocity can vary due to a large number of factors, including ambient temperature and chamber dimensions. Instead, I try to use nominal velocity figures that are representative of the capability of the round in question.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • As the owner of a 300 Blk pistol, I have yet to have anyone explain to me how a 300 Blk Subsonic round is any better than a 45. I can suppress by 45’s just as easy, I’ve always gone with the idea that a center fired rifle round should be more powerful than a hand gun round.

    • BillC

      Sectional Density. The subsonic 300blk will penetrate more and easier. Also, the 300 blk subsonic will carry the energy of a .45 for much, much longer.

      • It will, but as I explain in this post, just because it retains energy better doesn’t mean it can utilize it as effectively: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/08/08/energy-dont-sweat/

        • BillC

          Until (more) dedicated bullets are designed for 300 blk subsonic use (i.e. expanding). Using 200+gr OTM rounds is an expensive band-aid.
          The only offering I am aware of is the $2.50 per round, Lehigh Defense 300blk subsonic Maximum Expansion. Bill Alexander has expressed his desire to make dedicated 300blk bullets, but last I heard of that was nearly a year ago.
          The main beauty of the 300blk system, as you know, is the ability to launch good energy (relatively speaking), out of a short barrel, either supers or subs, suppressed or unsuppressed. I really like it, it’s the reason why I got into SBRs and Suppressors, but it’s not replacing my modestly short or 16″ 5.56mm/.223 uppers/rifles for most uses. It’s another Horses for Courses kind of thing, not an end-all-be-all.

          • valorius

            .300 blk is an answer looking for a question.

          • Younggun21

            Actually, it is the answer to having a cartridge that can be supersonic rifle ammo, but switch to suppressed subsonic with a simple mag change. It allows hunting to be done out past 300 yards, ethically, with super sonics and quiet close range shooting to be done with a suppressor and sub sonics. It does all of this with a shorter overall barrel length requirement than any other rifle cartridge and out of a modular system that is so ubiquitous at this point that you can find magazines, lowers, bolt carrier groups, sights, and modifications for pennies on the dollar when compared to other semi automatic platforms.

          • Shadow

            It’s a harder hitting round than 5.56, which is why I use it, and it suppresses better when you want that.

            Here’s Travis Haley’s thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgKjbySsAik

          • valorius

            Is it harder hitting than 5.56mm? Using premium ammo in 5.56mm, i seriously doubt the 300 blkout holds any advantage whatsoever in terminal ballistics, at least vs man or deer sized targets.

            Maybe for bears, but i wouldnt suggest .300 blkout as a bear gun either. 😉

            Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out.

          • Badwolf

            It’s the answer to this question… How do shoot a 30 caliber bullet out of an AR with just a barrel change.

          • Ethan

            The question was
            -Why does 5.56 have so little terminal impact?
            -Why does 5.56 have to lose so much energy in shorter barrels?
            -Why does a short barrel 5.56 have to be so concussive to shoot?
            -Why does 5.56 blow so much gunk in my face when suppressed?
            -Why is 5.56 have to be so loud even when suppressed?
            -Why can’t we have a AR cartridge that can take advantage of the full range of 30CAL projectiles?

            All of these questions have the same answer: 300BLK.

          • valorius

            I dispute whether .300 blk is any more terminally effective than top 5.56mm loads.

            The rest i wont dispute, as ive never fired a .300 blk out suppressed to compare it to 5.56mm directly.

          • Sianmink

            Gorilla Ammo Silverback ($2 a round) looks promising, but it and the Lehigh are the only credible expanding subsonics I know about right now.

          • JoelC

            Having shot a lot of things with 208 grain to 230 grain subs, I can say that when they hit something they tend to tumble. A bullet that is over an inch and a half long does a lot of damage when it tumbles. Expanding would be nice, but the regular hollow point bullets work just fine.

      • valorius

        because .45 acp has a problem with penetration????

        • iksnilol

          It kinda does.

          Round, heavy and soft bullet going slowly is a horrible penetrator. Just try on a steel pot helmet or something. A 9mm will penetrate where the .45 will just dent.

          • Anon

            Exactly, it’s harder to stop a fast and light bullet than it is to stop a slow and heavy bullet.

            Also, this is the reason that a 5.56×45 will go through what a 7.62×39 can’t as well.

          • iksnilol

            True.

            Can’t really agree on the other part though. Maybe with AP ammo or something. But regular FMJ 5.56 simply fragments too much to be able to go well through barriers.

            Tumbling bullets can tumble through cover, but fragmenting bullets can’t really.

          • Anon

            I’m refering to 5.56’s ability to go through some types of AR500 steel plates (level 3), because the velocity allows it to punch through, whereas 7.62×39 doesn’t have that ability.

            Now, as for hard barrier penetration, yes, 7.62×39 is deflected less.

            M855A1 does have good barrier penetration though, but that’s bullet design more than it is the 5.56.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s a rumour. I heard that too. Like the M16 can pinch a bullet through these plates.

            Das ist fantastisch!

          • Anon

            Google “AR500 vs XM193”, make sure it’s not a level 3 plate.

          • Sermon 7.62

            No penetration.

          • Anon

            https: / /www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8

            Fix the link by removing the spaces and putting a “.” where it says “dot.

            Now, XM193 won’t go through their level 3+ plate, because that’s specifically designed to stop it. Also, a 22 inch barrel is basically the same as a 20 inch barrel, and a 16 inch barrel will go through at like 12 yards IIRC.

            Still, interesting to know, in my opinion.

          • Anon

            I mean level 3+ plate.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Source?

          • iksnilol

            That’s the main kind of penetration I am interested in in regards to firearms. I don’t worry about armor that much. You can always hit them again and GTFO.

          • Anon

            I doubt I’ll be shooting through cover all that much (I’m a civilian), so 5.56 probably suits my needs, and I’d trust my life with it.

          • iksnilol

            Not a wrong choice by any means. It is just a personal preference of mine.

          • Anon

            Now where did I imply that you said that?

            But anyway, what was your preference for a rifle round again? I forgot, but I think it was either 7.62×39, or .308/7.62×51.

          • iksnilol

            Since I am in Norway (like 10-11 months a year), my most feared opponent is the mighty moose. So it is usually 308 (due to it being common cheap) or 6.5×55 (due to it being common and cheap here whilst better than 308 in every single way).

            Against people and in my homeland Bosnia I prefer x39. People are the most likely threat, people, wolves and boar. Those can be handled by x39. + I think it is safer for unarmored, without backup me to shoot through a wall to get somebody before retreating instead of depending on y’know, both me and my opponent being open to each other. But I’ll admit, 5.56 is pretty cool. Easy to shoot and also cheap. I oughta build a bolt action chambered for it.

          • Anon

            I’m definitely not going to call you an idiot for using any of those, but I will say that you should try to avoid using 7.62×39 M43 ammo, as that is known to ice-pick (the cases where people have been shot over twelve times by 7.62×39 and LIVED could probably be attributed to M43), what you should use instead is quality hollow or soft points, or if you want to use FMJs, use M67 instead, as that is a MUCH better performer in tissue than M43, because it actually yaws, doing a LOT of damage.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Iksni is Fan #001 of M67, no need to convince him of its merits. 😆

          • Anon

            Then it’s great that he has his head screwed on correctly, glad to hear that. 😀

            Seriously, I saw it just about rip a block of ballistics gel in half from shooting it three times.

            Makes me wish that I had an AK or SKS.

          • iksnilol

            I actually use M67. Brasss cased modern production to boot. Only M43 I can get is that Chinese ammo. But I’d rather buy local.

          • Anon

            Great choice. Also, is the Chinese ammo cheap?

          • iksnilol

            Last time it was.

            Good plinking ammo.

          • Anon

            I bet it is, too bad it’s banned from import here in the United States (and I don’t even have a rifle chambered in 7.62×39).

          • valorius

            It’s not a good penetrator vs armor, i’ll certainly give you that. (I have .5″ bulletproof glass that will stop a .45ACP FMJ. Ive shot the same glass with .380+P underwood max penetrator rounds, they go right through it.

            But vs soft tissue, and bone, a .45 acp is a tremendously effective penetrator.

      • Anon

        Still not enough to penetrate a level IIA vest, let alone a IIIA.

        • Anon

          Also, .300 Memeout is known for ice-picking.

          • CommonSense23

            So a round that is easily capable of expansion to .6 inches in diameter is ice picking?

          • Anon

            If it’s subsonic, no, it probably won’t do that.

          • CommonSense23

            Expanding subs are a thing now. And you realize what the point of .300BLK is right? Even if you don’t have a expanding sub. You have the flexibility of shooting supers without a mag change.
            300BLK isn’t a general purpose round. Its a speciality round developed for a very specific military purpose that it excels at.

          • Anon

            Saying that the .300 Blackout excels at anything other than its versatility (which IS a great advantage for the niche it fills, I’m not going to lie) is an outright lie, and have you heard of the Hague Conventions? How’s those expanding subsonics now for your military purposes?

            Also, good subsonic ammo for the .300 Blackout is more expensive than say, 9mm subsonics, or .45 ACP (assuming hollow-points for all three). Admittedly, that previous point is coming from a civilian’s perspective.

          • CommonSense23

            Do you realize the guys who use .300BLK in the military haven’t been worried about the Hague conventions in terms of expanding munitions for a while. Plus Hague conventions leave a lot of room to use expanding rounds anyway.
            And yes it excels at its core role. That of offering a suppressed firearm that allows the user the ability to have extremely quiet suppression levels. While with the same gun and even with the same mag still be a capable of rifle caliber ballistics.

          • Anon

            For the last thing you said, you essentially repeated what I just said (that’s exactly what I meant by “versatility”, I was saying that it’s not going to be the quietest or most effective at range).

            Also, have you seen hollow-points being used yet? OTMs don’t count.

            Also, I will say that it’s news to me that the military uses it. They seriously do? I’m rather surprised, but I can believe it.

          • CommonSense23

            Hollowpoints yes. And 300BLK is honestly a military round. It had a lot of money thrown at it quietly by SOCOM to make it work. That’s why it exist.
            It’s a round that allows you to shoot someone in one room without waking up someone in the next room. Walk outside and engage someone 200 yards away with the same gun and mag. It allows the user not to need multiple kits or waste time setting up there kit to run specifically suppressed. It allows armorers to need no special training to maintain the weapon.

          • Anon

            I’m probably thinking too much from the perspective of a civilian and the “general-purpose round”, aren’t I?

            From my perspective, I find that a 20 inch AR-15 is perfectly adequate for home defense and general use, because I know that I’m probably never going to clear rooms, and 5.56 needs all the help it can get.

            Well, I’m sorry that I started crap over something that we seem to agree on, that being that .300 Blackout is great for its versatility, because I think I got the false impression that everyone else was arguing that it’s the end-all-be-all.

            I’m still going to be obstinate on whether SMGs are obsolete or not though.

          • Ethan

            “From my perspective, I find that a 20 inch AR-15 is perfectly adequate for home defense and general use”

            Try doing the same home defense exercise with an 8in barrel – it’ll change your life. Honest – I used to thing the same thing until I tried a short barrel “pistol” AR. Now a 16″ barrel makes me feel like I’m trying to carry an ironing board through my house..

          • Anon

            Do you think that a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel is short enough for home defense? It’s generally agreed by people that it is, and a 20 inch AR is about the same length.

            Also, if you can help it (if you have no kids or whatever), you shouldn’t be clearing rooms for home defense, because it’s better to ambush intruders (wait for them to come to you), as opposed to walking around a corner to possibly get shot or otherwise attacked.

            Finally, let’s not forget that if you don’t have hearing protection on, I’d much rather have a 20 inch barrel than an 8 inch barrel (assuming no suppressors, and 5.56), because those things are LOUD out of an SBR.

          • Ethan

            The Hague convention is an internet myth in this context – the U.S. is not bound by any treaty other than aversion to change that prevents us from using fragmenting or expanding rounds.

            Just look at the M885A1, and the hollow point pistol rounds being adopted by the military.

          • Anon

            M855A1 doesn’t fall under the Hague Convention, because fragmenting ammunition is allowed under that, just look at M193 ball.

        • .300 Subsonic does defeat IIIA in tests on youtube. Really depends on the projectile; copper rounds like the Lehigh and Barnes Vortex worked well as I recall.

          • Anon

            Please show me the links for this happening, because I’ve never seen that happen.

            Make sure you break the link(s) so your comment doesn’t go into moderator limbo by changing the “.”s to “dot” and putting a space beteen the two “/”s.

          • I’m sorry, I’ve tried to find the video and I can’t. It was with Lehigh’s Controlled Fracturing that features the “Harpoon Tip.” Watched it about a year ago?

          • Anon

            It’s okay, I can believe it, after all, I’ve seen videos of subsonic 5.7×28 and subsonic .223 (the reason they went through is probably because they had a thick jacket that just didn’t deform) go through soft body armor before, so it’s plausible to me that certain .300 Blackout bullets can go through soft armor at subsonic velocities.

          • That’s funny, I was actually going to use the subsonic SB193 5.7×28 test as an example.

          • Anon

            Oh, Buffman’s channel? If so, have you seen that RMA level IV plate stop .300 Win Mag loaded with M2 AP? That was insane.

    • Joel

      I have actually wondered if a 300 Blk subsonic is better than a 9MM subsonic. One element of that, which is being worked, is that the 9MM subsonic will reliably expand at its impact velocities and has highly developed (FBI requirement compliant) projectiles. For the 9MM, subsonic expansion is old, known technology.

      • valorius

        I agree.

      • Porty1119

        I suppose the advantage of 300BLK is that a simple magazine swap gets you back to an intermediate rifle caliber. Try doing that with a PCC!

        • Jared Vynn

          Also 300 has better aerodynamics allowing for greater energy retention over a greater range.

    • Duray

      Your 45acp can’t have 7.62×39 ballistics at the swap of a mag. Plus, fwiw, the blackout well penetrate waaaaay more than the fat 45 slug.

      • valorius

        The .45 slug has problems penetrating?

        7.62x39mm ballistics are impressive?

        seems to me a suppressed ,30-30 already does everything .300 blk can do, and has been doing it for a century.

        • David Harmon

          It’s a solution for a specific platform. I don’t get it why this is so hard for everyone to understand.

          You don’t have a use for it, fine, then don’t buy into the platform or the caliber. There is no reason to try and question why someone else would want the caliber.

          Me personally, even though I don’t have to validate why I like the caliber, I like it because it gives AK performance while not being stuck in a piece of crap AK design, or having to lug around huge oddly shaped AK magazines that only seem to fit in borderline useless ChiCom chest rigs that have the durability of a box of kleenex.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Even if AK rounds could be used in AR mags and fired from AR it would not make it AK, so performance is not going to be the same, as AR is a cheeper, fool-proof, simplistic piece of garbage designed to be dropped on the battlefield as soon as a Vietnam soldier gets killed from a helicopter’s machine gun.

          • What, are you Rousso’s alt account or something?

          • Sermon 7.62

            I signed up.

          • Anon

            Could’ve fooled me.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Is there someone else like me?
            No!

          • Anon

            You act a lot like him, hence Nathaniel’s sarcastic comment, and you obviously missed the sarcasm.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Chill out, bro.

          • Anon

            Lol.

          • Anon

            What? Have you researched what ACTUALLY caused the M16’s problems in Vietnam?

            If you’re too lazy, it’s called some morons decided to cut costs in vital areas like chrome-lined bores, not issuing cleaning kits, claiming that it’s self-cleaning, and using crappy powder.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s right.

            And making disposable “drop-free” magazines. Americans are still acting like magazines are disposable. Drop and forget.

          • Anon

            What? They make better magazines these days you know…

          • Sermon 7.62

            So stop dropping them. This is stupid.

          • Anon

            What are you talking about? Americans don’t treat magazines as disposable.

          • Sermon 7.62
          • Anon

            So, what you’re saying is that is soon as the magazine hit the ground, we Americans forget about them and never reuse them, right?

            What are you even getting at, seriously? What’s your point?

          • Sermon 7.62

            Are you retarded or something

          • Anon

            That’s what I want to know about you, seeing how you seem to believe everyone else is psychic and you think it’s unnecessary to explain what you mean.

            I’m going to ask one more time: What are you getting at? If you’re saying magazines automatically break after being dropped, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Kid, if you drop it and keep going and shooting, will you come back later to pick it up?

          • Anon

            How is that a fault of the magazines? And under normal circumstances, that is to say not under an immediate life-and-death situation, you’re going to keep the magazines.

            Also, I don’t know why you seem to think that Americans are unique in the regard of drop-free magazines, because I can’t think of one detachable magazine fed rifle that doesn’t have drop-free magazines.

            Finally, there’s something called “tactical reloading”, where you retain the magazine.

          • Sermon 7.62

            AK doesn’t have drop-free magazines. Because soldiers are not supposed to drop them in the mud.

          • Anon

            Then what do you call the “Israeli reload”?

            Why can you find beat-up magazines in the US military that have been used repeatedly in combat?

            If you think that Americans treat magazines like they’re disposable most of the time, you obviously don’t understand American doctrine. Why else is it suggested that if you find a damaged magazine that won’t work, you smash it, so it isn’t reused? Maybe it’s because we reuse them!

          • Sermon 7.62

            Israeli reload? I have no idea about that. Israelis do a lot of stupid sh*t.

          • Anon

            Basically you hit the magazine release with a fresh magazine, knocking the old one out, as opposed to grabbing the magazine release and the magazine and throwing it out.

            You don’t mean to tell me that “emergency reloads” aren’t a thing with AKs, do you? I know they’re a thing, so you’re wrong if you think that dropping the magazine during a reload is purely a Western thing.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s the kind of reload that I posted a pic of a bit earlier in response to your comment? That’s the stupid sh*t I thought Americans invented.

            In Russia, people are trained to reload AK not standing like an idiot, but to hide, or to get on the ground, and then to reload and keep the mag. We reload with the right hand, holding AK in the left hand, barrel down. Much more practical.

          • Anon

            If something works, it isn’t stupid, and there is no rule that you have to be out of cover or stationary while reloading in America, and I’m pretty damn sure they train you to take cover while doing so here as well.

          • BillC

            Don’t worry, valorious is here to tell you why you’re 100% wrong, even if you are not pushing anything on anybody, you’re just wrong.

          • valorius

            I think the reason to question why people us it, is to foster discussion.

          • David Harmon

            In other words you want people to justify themselves to your standards…

          • valorius

            Who doesn’t?

        • Jared Vynn

          Oh you mean there is a 30-30 Semi-Automatic? Except for lever revolution ammo 300 blackout has better ballistics than 30-30.

          • valorius

            Yes, the .30-30 lever action semi automatic cartridge is called the 7.62x39mm.

          • OJS

            Would it not be 7.62×51? aka .308 NATO

          • valorius

            No, 7.62mm NATO is a much more powerful round, whereas .30-30 and 7.62x39mm are nearly identical in performance.

          • Jared Vynn

            In other words no. 7.62×39 is not 30-30 unless you also think 38 super or 357 sig is 9mm Luger.

          • Anon

            What I think they mean is that 7.62×39 mirrors 30-30 ballistically.

          • Jared Vynn

            30-30 160gr can go at 2,400 fps like the 124 gr 7.62×39. some loads of 30-30 may be similar to some loads of 7.62×39 but 30-30 has many loads that are better. Factory loads not handloads.

          • Anon

            30-30 is more versatile in the loadings selection department, but 30-30 doesn’t really have many autoloading options, in stark contrast to the 7.62×39.

          • Jared Vynn

            It has no Semi-Automatic firearms chambered for it, but in theory a dragunov type rifle could be chambered for it. Or anything that uses 7.62x54r. It isn’t a design fault it doesn’t have any autoloader offerings yet.

          • Anon

            A semi-automatic 30-30 would definitely be cool.

          • Jared Vynn

            I’ve been pondering it for a while, a AK pattern 410 shotgun with a new barrel could work. Biggest issue is magazine because of the rim.

          • valorius

            .30-30 is a near ballistic twin to the 7.62x39mm.

        • Sianmink

          You’re right, but suppressed .30-30 doesn’t come in a modern platform and 30-60 round magazines.

          • valorius

            A .30-30 AR would be truly unique and REALLY cool.

          • valorius

            A suppressed .30-30 lever action is a pretty daggone effective tool for defense and hunting. Just sayin’…

    • valorius

      I agree 100%.

    • CommonSense23

      It allows you MP5SD quiet levels with the ability of a mag change to have rifle capabilities.

      • Anon

        Rifle capabilities that are inferior to the 5.56.

        • BillC

          You still don’t get it. No one here has said it’s “better” than 5.56mm
          1) subsonic 5.56mm is about the same as .22lr
          2) 300blk was designed to shine out of very short barrels, where 5.56mm completely sucks at in comparison, you know, sub 10.5″, with either supers or subs.

          • Anon

            If a rifle round can be stopped by AR500 level IIIA armor when it’s supersonic, yet an AR pistol length barrel in 5.56 defeated the same armor, then I don’t want that round.

            I wasn’t advocating subsonic 5.56, I know that sucks, where did I say that? “Rifle capabilities” implies that I mean supersonic loadings.

            What situation could you possibly think of that 2″ is going to make an actual difference? Hell, if you’re not going to clear rooms, then a 20″ AR would work fine.

          • BillC

            Ha, where? Video? I can only find IIIA stopping subs, supers will fly through IIIA just like pretty much any other supersonic rifle bullets.

          • Anon

            Hold on, I failed at avoiding moderator limbo, sorry.

          • Anon

            Here: https:/ / www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=69akpvc2mX4

            ( Replace the “dot”s with “.”, remove the spaces, then hit enter)

            Skip to about 6:30 in the video.

            The above instructions are to avoid moderator limbo.

            Admittedly, I don’t think it’s likely that you’re going to run into someone wearing this steel pistol plate, but the possibility exists. Also, you can see that M855 (which sucks for penetrating steel) out of a 10 inch barrel went through that plate without any issues.

          • CommonSense23

            Did you notice the speed he had for that 300BLK round.

          • Anon

            Yes, it was previously averaged at 1,742 FPS, and if you don’t trust that, he tested steel core and lead core 7.62×39 out of an SBR, and the Chinese steel core barely got through at 2,099 FPS, the lead core cracked (that is to say, it didn’t go through, despite what the description says) the plate at 2,137 FPS.

            Also, the M855 went through at 2,496 FPS, and the FMJ .30 Carbine failed at 1,851 FPS.

          • BillC

            Please, 110gr 300blk moves out of a 9″ barrel @ approx 2,100fps. Don’t come at me with that at as proof when this video is using 147gr. That weight and bullet (M80) is purely a plinking round in 300blk. It (clearly) moves too slow to be any good. The sweet spot for 300nlk is 100gr.

          • Anon

            Then I suppose that the part where 7.62×39 with the lead core only cracked the plate didn’t happen?

            Isn’t .300 Blackout supersonic basically a mirror of 7.62×39? So, according to the previously recorded average of the lead core 7.62×39 (the previously recorded average was 2,137 fps for the lead core), the .300 Blackout would still fail, which is backed up by how that Chinese steel core stuff with a harder core barely made it through @ 2,099 fps (previously recorded average), if you think .300 Blackout would go through that plate, by all means, test it yourself, we would all appreciate it (I’m not mocking you here, I’m serious).

          • Anon

            The bullet weight for both of the 7.62×39 bullets were both 124 grain, by the way.

          • Sermon 7.62

            But lead can’t go through steel, and even steel core is not meant for that. Use AP.

          • Anon

            What kind of nonsense is that? So what you’re saying is, you’d stand in front of a .50 BMG because “LOL, it’s okay, it’s only lead”.

            Also, they list the AR500 Level 3+ plate as being special threat rated to stop XM193, so that means that it’s known to go through their regular plate, and that’s a LEAD bullet.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I meant lead core bullets and steel armor plates, man. Read it in context.

          • Anon

            I DID read it in context, and it’s wrong, have you watched the video I linked above?

          • Anon

            The one that involved XM193 defeating a level III AR500 steel plate, that is.

          • BillC

            Well true. My main point of contention was that M80 does have a steel cap on the lead core, but 300 black pushes it too slow to reliably push it through.

        • Sianmink

          Not indoors out of an 8″ barrel without exploding your eardrums.

          • Anon

            They make something called electronic hearing protection, and failing that, suppressors.

            And 10.5 inch barrels are SOOO long, aren’t they?

          • AlDeLarge

            An 8.5″ barrel with a 6″ suppressor is as long as a standard M4 (14.5″) barrel, less actually with the thread overlap.

        • Shadow

          Or better than the 5.56 with supersonic rounds.

    • It’s more about versatility. You can’t change mags in your .45 and begin firing projectiles at supersonic speeds (2000+ fps).

      • Mag change to 45 Super nets 1300 fps

        • That’s still hardly 2000+ fps, and even more expensive!

    • Kivaari

      The trouble is they are making the 300 into something it wasn’t designed for. It was just a replacement for the .45, since few .45 carbines existed. It was an easy thing to create the Whisper and get .45 performance. Then someone decided it needs to be super sonic as well. Soon it becomes one gun does it all. Wikipedia even claims it has effective ranges far in excess of 5.56mm. As long as a mortar sight is installed along side the stock.

  • BillC

    Your caption needs to say “on the right”, first.

    • Whoops. Thanks for the correction!

      • BillC

        Obvious to those that are used to seeing these cartridges, but it might confuse the large base that are not too familiar with them.

  • Sermon 7.62

    But designed for added capabilities?

    Please, elaborate more on these “added capabilities”. Because the Russians are making 10 kinds of 7.62×39 ammo, including FMJ, subsonic, AP, API, tracer and HP.

    • Duray

      Was the 762×39 and its host weapons engineered to cycle subsonic without modification?

      • Sermon 7.62

        The subsonic version of 7.62×39 was designed for a suppressor.

    • Alexandru Ianu

      I think he meant ability to use in a regular AR-15 magazine (instead of the highly curved AKM magazine). Otherwise, the .300 blackout is a bit weaker than the 7.62×39, and mostly identical when it comes to the subsonic versions.

      • Sermon 7.62

        I don’t think that’s what he meant. He just doesn’t like the fact that US product is inferior to the Russian, and states something opposite to that. Usual propaganda tactics.

        • Younggun21

          Propaganda? It is just simple common sense and logistics. Not all that ammo is making it over to the US civilian market. Quality AKs are not as availible as quality AR parts. AR manual of arms and magazines are easier to come by. Making something that is compatible is just smart.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I think this blog is being read by a lot of people outside the US.

    • Yeah, you see a lot of the Russian subsonic 7.62×39 ammunition running around here in the States?

      You can do quite a lot with 7.62×39, but currently the West is not. .300 Blackout was explicitly designed to do those things in an AR-friendly package.

      You can get indignant about the fact that 7.62×39 subs exist somewhere past the Urals, but that doesn’t change why the .300 Blackout, and Whisper that preceded it, were designed.

      • Sermon 7.62

        I don’t see the Russian subsonic 57-N-231U ammo in the US, (the 4th from the right on the pic), but I don’t see a reason to not import it from Russia, too. And it took me a second to find the American made AK subsonic ammo.

        Engel Ballistic Research, 220gr “Jackhammer” FMJ, for $30 and 220gr, expanding, “Ghost” for $40. Is it not good?

        • You are missing the point. Look at the documents and press packages released for the .300 Blackout at the time it was introduced. Look at what AAC said about its mission and why they chose the configuration that they did (which was almost identical to .300 Whisper). The literature explains their rationale for not simply adapting 7.62x39mm, even though they could have. Numerous others in this thread have gone over all of these points in exhaustive detail, so I see no reason to retread that ground.

          Ultimately, your objection is just “but you can do subsonic 7.62×39 too!” Nobody said you couldn’t, buddy.

          • Sermon 7.62

            I assume their rationale is related to politics and business. That’s normal. But the objection is not about that no one said I couldn’t but because no one said that I could.

  • valorius

    .300 blackout makes no sense to me. If you want a suppressed heavy bullet, just use a .45acp weapon.

    If you want high velocity, there are much better choices as well.

    • CommonSense23

      So what two work together as well as 300BLK.

      • valorius

        I just said i think .45 acp is as good as .300 blk.

        • CommonSense23

          For taking a 200 yard shot you think you can do as well with a .45ACP?

          • BillC

            Just stop arguing with valorius, he clearly has what “works” for him and what works for him, shouldn’t work for you. Please, respect his wishes. ALL HAIL THE .45ACP!

          • BillC

            *should work for you*, not shouldn’t.

          • valorius

            Absolutely, yes. A .45 acp carbine is perfectly capable of taking high hit probability shots vs man or deer sized targets at ranges of 200 meters.

          • CommonSense23

            So what do you zero your laser to allow for short range use and 200 yard use with a .45ACP carbine.

          • valorius

            Iron sights man.

          • CommonSense23

            How do you use Iron sights at night on NODs?

          • valorius

            Flash light or illumination flares.

          • Sermon 7.62

            M70 has tritium iron sights

          • valorius

            I like tritium irons, but if your target is not visible, they’re of limited utility. Hence the light (for civilian use), or illumination flares (military use when you dont have NVGs).

          • CommonSense23

            So just give away your night vision advantage with flares. Or make your self a giant target with a flashlight.

          • valorius

            Well you know people are quite fond of weapon mounted lights, despite the drawbacks. And we’ve been using illumination flares in battle for, oh, 100-150 years now.

            Everyone commenting here is going to use .300 blk out in a civilian role, not on a modern battlefield.

            If you want to kill something without giving up your location at long range on a modern battlefield, i suggest a predator drone strike. Or my personal favorite…a nice artillery barrage 🙂

          • CommonSense23

            Weapon mounted lights are backups. Or for searches after initial clearances.
            And its never a good idea to call in artillery or a air strike on a building your in or within 50 yards of your position.

          • valorius

            What does any of that have to do with .300 blk out dude?

            PS: I’m ex infantry

          • CommonSense23

            Cause 300BLK is a speciality weaponround. Its not for the infantry. Its a round that was designed so guys didn’t have to carry a MP5SD plus their rifle. Its for shooting people and not waking up the neighbors. Its why SOF is the only guys running it military. The round makes sense only in a military setting.

          • RocketScientist

            “Absolutely, yes. A .45 acp carbine is perfectly capable of taking high hit probability shots vs man or deer sized targets at ranges of 200 meters.”

            Yup, and they;ll only have 1/4 to 1/5 the energy of a .300 blk round at that range, and considerably more drop. SOUNDS GREAT!

          • Anon

            Now, I’m not sure that I’m the best person to be talking about this, but what freaking moron shoots a “deer-sized target” at 200 meters, with a .45 ACP? There are so many better ideas/options, it’s not even funny.

          • valorius

            What are you going to shoot at 200 yards that a .45 acp from a carbine won’t kill? Please, do tell.
            Remington’s old .45acp+P 185gr FMJ was really out of my old Marlin camp carbine, and had would certainly kill anything that needed killing out to 200 meters, no problem.

          • valorius

            185gr+P Underwood from an 18″ carbine should still have in excess of 400fpe at 200 meters. That round uses the excellent gold dot bonded core JHP.

            It will kill any reasonable target that needs killing.

          • valorius

            If you want a pointy nosed alternative: 7.62x39mm.

          • CommonSense23

            Those mags don’t work in a 5.56 mag pouch.

          • valorius

            I hear they make tactical vests for AK’s. 😀

          • CommonSense23

            Yeah so the recce guy who just got told hey he is swapping places with someone a hour out the door now needs to reconfigure his kit to run AK mags.
            300BLK was a round developed to be a set of compromises. Working in a AR platform with AR mags was one of them.

          • valorius

            The US military uses .300 black out in recon units? Or is this just a specious argument? 😀

          • CommonSense23

            Yes the US military uses 300BLK. It was a given a lot of money by SOCOM.

        • Younggun21

          No, its not. At 10 feet, the difference between the subsonic loads might not be that noticeable, but saying .45 is going to be as good as 300blk as a blanket statement equates .45 with rifle caliber ballistics with is simply ludicrous.

          • valorius

            A .45acp will kill anything that you’d be shooting at with a .300 blk out just as dead at any range out to 200 meters.

          • Younggun21

            You are kidding yourself. You are trying to tell me that a PISTOL CALIBER carbine is going to be as effective as a rifle caliber moving twice as fast at the muzzle? You have effectively called for the return to WW1 style warfare with pistol caliber carbines and full size rifles for anything farther. Intermediate cartridges were designed specifically because they are far superior to pistol calibers and lighter with less recoil of fullsize rifle calibers like 30-06. Saying 45 is going to be just as effective as a rifle round at any distance is being willfully ignorant of history, science, and common sense. If you want to trust the 45, go for it. But stop telling other people blatant falsehoods.

          • BillC

            You got that all wrong actually. You missed the part about both being subsonic. In the subsonic realm, the 300blk and .45 ARE very close, especially at 100 yards, but there is more of a drop at 200 yards for the .45; however there is less drift with the 300blk because of the bullet shape.

          • valorius

            .45’s make very big holes, big holes let out lots of blood. Furthermore, carbine fired 185gr+P .45acp ammo (550fpe of muzzle energy from a 5″ 1911) is probably comparable in muzzle energy to .30 blk out at 200 meters. Finally, energy doesnt really matter very much when it comes to killing things. Big, deep holes are what you want- and the .45 acp is great at making those.

            Trying to argue that .45acp+P JHP ammo from a carbine is not lethal at 200 meters is silliness.

          • valorius

            .45acp+P 185gr Underwood (Gold Dot bonded core JHP) should produce 1425fps/830fpe energy from an 18″ carbine. (1200fps/590fpe from a 5″ 1911). At 200 meters it should still be putting out in excess of 400fpe of energy. You’re trying to seriously argue that a 185gr bonded core gold dot with that level of energy would not be a highly lethal round at 200 meters?

          • RocketScientist

            LOL, ok, so you’re just trolling. Or maybe you’re mentally defective… at 200 yd a .45 acp will have around 200 ft-lbf of kinetic energy. .300 blk will have over 800 at same range.

          • valorius

            Bro, a .45ACP 185gr+P round fired from a carbine is probably every bit as powerful as a .300 blk out when it comes to muzzle energy. From a 5″ pistol barrel that round produces about 550fpe of energy.

            I never anywhere stated “230gr hardball ammo”.

          • valorius

            185g+P bonded core (Gold dot) JHP Underwood from a 5″ 1911 makes 1200fps and just shy of 600fpe energy at the muzzle. From an 18″ carbine that should translate to 1425fps and 830fpe of energy at the muzzle. At 200 meters that loading should still be well in excess of 400fpe of energy, and make a BIG deep hole.

            Plenty vs deer or man.

    • David Harmon

      It’s a niche round that fits a specific niche. I can go hog hunting with it, and later on use it to plug noise home invaders without waking up the whole house and neighborhood with loud bangs.

      • valorius

        So you bought a vastly more expensive 7.62x39mm alternative. 😀

        • BillC

          While you haven’t been “right” on everything, you probably should come off of that high horse.

          • valorius

            I’m just making conversation. I dont even own a horse. 😉

          • BillC

            For me, I like having the 300blk. It’s just another horse in my stable, because I want it. Reloaded 147gr (which does mimick the 7.62ak) are cheap and fun out of my 9″ Upper. I can use 110gr for hunting hogs and deer (which mimics the 30-30, but out of a reliable, lighter, smaller, higher capacity semi-auto). For fun (which it is for me) I can shoot subs stupid quiet with a suppressor, reliably (not too expensive with subsonic, reloaded, lead core powder coated bullets). All with just an upper swap.

            I’m not comparing the 300blk SYSTEM to the AK, because it really isn’t. The 300 BLK is just the most versatile.30 cal for the AR15 system. People just need to agree on what it is and ISNT. Of course other systems are more powerful, cheaper, better at xx, etc. we know 7.62ak is cheaper. I find there is value in having a .30 cal launching out of an AR15 with only a different barrel needed, just as much I value having all my other 5.56mm ARs.

            For me, I want this horse. It’s cool if you don’t, just don’t be a d!#k about it.

          • valorius

            Hey man, i’m just sayin’ 😉

        • David Harmon

          Incorrect, I bought a vastly more cost effective 7.62 intermediate round. Start adding up the cost of replacing barrels in an AR versus replacing the entire rifle for an AK, and bear in mind for some of us 300blk is only about $0.10-15 more expensive per round when reloading compared to 762x39ru.

          The cost argument was valid, about two years ago. Not anymore.

    • Jared Vynn

      I can use it in super sonic for deer hunting and with no modifications to the rifle also shoot subsonic that outperform 45acp in energy retention over distance thanks to the better ballistics.

      • valorius

        They call that the 7.62x39mm bro. It’s been around since 1947. 😉

        • RocketScientist

          Right and the 7.62×39 is designed to run fine out of 9″ barrels right? and has a taper that allows it to be used in AR pattern magazines, right? and also has commonly available subsonic loadings that reliably cycle the action of an AK, right? Oh wait, the 7.62×39 does NONE of those things??? well damn…

          • iksnilol

            Runs just fine out of a 10″ barrel, doubt another inch off would make problems. Subsonic loads aren’t hard to make if you reload (which considering how little one uses subsonic 7.62×39 you might as well do).

            Why would I use AR pattern magazines when I can just run an AK?

          • RocketScientist

            Maybe I worded it wrong. While i’m no AK expert, I sorta assumed 7.62×39 would fire/cycle in a short barrel setup (I mean, I’ve seen “krinks” etc). I was more suggesting that it suffers a significant performance loss out of a short barrel vs long, whereas as .300 was designed with quick-burning powders in mind, and sees very little performance loss in going from a 14+” barrel to a 9″ one. Again, no AK expert, so could be totally wrong here, but I’m guessing the same can’t be said of the x39?

          • Sermon 7.62

            I cab be said, of course.

            300 Blackout copies 7.62×39, it’s nothing else but imitation. The specs for Zastava M70: 16″ barrel, 720 m/s (2,400 ft/s). Zastava M92 has a 10″ barrel and 678 m/s (2,224 ft/s).

          • iksnilol

            By runs fine I meant it doesn’t lose much velocity. Of course, you lose a bit but not much. Just look at 7.62x39s shoulder and you’ll understand.

            Also, look at velocity data so you don’t embarass yourself. Please?

          • Sermon 7.62

            7.62×39 is designed to run fine out of 9″ barrels, too. Like it does from Arsenal AR-M14SF and Zastava M92. And for those thinking that it doesn’t run fine as subsonic, see “AK47 Krink with a Surefire Socom762-RC Suppressor” clip on Silencer HQ channel.

          • RocketScientist

            Yeah, but then you have to shoot an AK… and who wants that? 🙂

          • Sermon 7.62

            AK is the King of the Jungle.

          • Jared Vynn

            Funny I thought they found it jams in mud and dust while the AR kept going. Pretty sure it was here on TFB I saw it.

          • Sermon 7.62

            That’s a dumb propaganda flick for low IQ people.

          • Anon

            Are you honestly telling me that Ian and Karl are shills for the AR-15 industry?

            Stop embarrassing yourself, please.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Some people just like it, and do it for free. But that clip is too dumb and I think those dudes know it.

          • Anon

            What are you on?

          • Sermon 7.62

            Stop trolling, kid.

          • Anon

            You’re the one calling video evidence a “dumb propaganda flick”, so I think you’re the troll, kid.

          • Jared Vynn

            No it was designed for a 20 inch barrel and they have made new loadings that can work with shorter barrels since same as 5.56 while 300 blackout was designed with short barrels in mind from the start.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Incorrect.

            7.62×39 was designed as a main round for a range of firearms that had to be developed later. In 1992 a 10″ barrel AK was developed in Serbia. It uses the standard ammo.

            300 Blackout was designed as a 7.62×39 kind of round for the AR platform. It had been known to them that the round was good for the short barrel carbines. So, please…

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/213b7207335d66c4a4fe70d5603cc9444d3ae337d76aa50faed3cbb59dccc435.png

          • Jared Vynn

            Reinterpret history as you like, but they didn’t come out with a short barrel until decades later and unless they had incredible foresight there is no way they planned the cartridge for a firearm not to come out for almost 50 years.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So?

            Like 300 Blackout designers “planned” something, except for imitation.

          • Jared Vynn

            They designed 300 blackout with short barreled carbines like the M4 in mind while maintaining versatility of being able to switch from suppressed subsonic to supersonic without modifying anything on the rifle. 7.62×39 was designed with a light machine gun RPD, a Semi-Automatic carbine, and an assault rifle. Keep in mind the carbine was the SKS with a 20″ barrel. 300 blackout was designed with a 9″ barrel barrel and not intended for use in a light machine gun or “carbine” rifle like the SKS.

          • Sermon 7.62

            So?

            It had been a known fact that the round was being used with the short barrel carbines at the time, and there’s nothing there that was invented or improved by the Blackout designers.

          • valorius

            I’ve seen plenty of AK pistols with short barrels work perfectly fine with 7.62x39mm ammo.

            Is this a serious comment?

          • valorius

            I personally see no practical use for 9″ AR pistols, at least not in civilian trim. Sorry.

        • Jared Vynn

          Only in nonstandard loads of which the cartridge and rifles were not made for unlike 300 blackout.

          Sure you can get 220 gr 7.62×39 loads for almost $2 a round, but they are a modern product.

    • RocketScientist

      And what suppressed .45acp weapon can also fire supersonic rounds with ballistic similr to .30-30 or 7.62×39? Or can shoot subsonic heavy bullets with a sectional density and better terminal performance than .45acp… and also better ballistics? the main appeal of .300 blk to many people is its flexibility in the AR platform. I can use it as a bedside hearing-safe HD gun, a hearing-safe plinker at the range, take it hunting for deer, or ring steel at hundreds of yards. All with the same gun. Thats pretty cool. And not really possible with any single .45acp gun im familiar with.

      • valorius

        A .45 acp has plenty of ballistics out to 200 meters in skilled hands. The .300 blackout offers nothing that .30-30 hasnt for a century. Or 7.62x39mm, for that matter.

        An answer in search of a question.

        • CommonSense23

          Yeah cause at night on NODs I really want to have to deal with figuring out that couple foot drop of a .45ACP.

          • valorius

            If you cant make 200 meter shots easily with a .45 acp carbine and iron night sights, you probably shouldnt be making 200 meter shots with anything. Just sayin’ 😉

          • CommonSense23

            You have you to be trolling right. You really think you can make a 200 yard shot at night at a target you couldn’t see past 25 yards without NODs with iron sights?

          • valorius

            I feel as if this argument is now a bit of an obfuscation, as ive been arguing caliber not target acquisition, but i’ll play:

            I was in the Infantry in an era when NVGs and night optics were not common, we used a thing called an illumination flare. In open terrain they are certainly bright enough to shoot targets several hundred meters away.

            However, as a civvie, lacking fancy night vision optics, i’d use a high power gun mounted light, or even better, a buddy with a hand held search light.

          • CommonSense23

            The whole point of 300BLK is so people will never know you are there. Shooting illumination flares is a thing of a bygone era.

          • valorius

            This is a ridiculous argument… unless you plan on executing a modern battle with your .300 blk out.

          • CommonSense23

            No was is suggesting it is for everyone. But for recce guys.

          • BillC

            No, no it isn’t at all. Trust me.

          • CommonSense23

            Where were you at that you gave up the advantage of NODs.

          • BillC

            Africa. Illumination flares are also used as a show of force or deterrent, reminding the d-heads that we are looking for them. This is isn’t a discussion of tactics, that’s a completely different time and place and takes way too long to talk about.

        • Younggun21

          Are you kidding? Can you shoot .30-30 out of an AR-15 style rifle? Can you suppress 7.62x39mm as quiet as a .45acp? Can either of these rounds be shot out of a 9 inch barrel maintaining optimum ballistics? I think not.

          • iksnilol

            Actually, subsonic 7.62 is quieter than .45 ACP simply because it is smaller. + if it doesn’t cycle the action then you don’t have the racket of the action working (depends on loading and gas system of course).

          • Sermon 7.62

            It is quieter than all other calibers. Because PBS-1 suppressor uses rubber buffles that seal the exit hole after the bullet passes.

          • iksnilol

            Thats suppressor specific, and not related to the cartridge. I was thinking because it is smaller less gas passes behind it.

            Wipes are ancient suppressor technology. No real use for them anymore, maybe for pocket pistols but that’s it.

          • Sermon 7.62

            The Russians are still using them. Each box of subsonic ammo contains a set of new baffles. It is ancient, I agree but so is the AK. And these suppressors can be used for a long, long time. Just replace the baffles.

          • iksnilol

            That last sentence is but one of the reasons why wipes are obsolete.

            The other reason is that they mess with precision, they touch the bullet. No go for me unless it is something intended for close range (like a pocket pistol).

          • Sermon 7.62

            But the Russians use them for ambushes and CQB. For other tasks, there is the VSS.

            Though, according to the tables, it takes 1 shot for “best shooters” to hit a head target from 100m, 4 shots from 300m. This is statistics. Prone position. And for standing position, 2 for 100 and 16 for 300m.

        • RocketScientist

          Jesus christ, are you intentionally being obstinate? Yes, if you buy a .45 acp handgun, a long gun chambered in .45 acp, a lever gun in .30-30 and a semi-auto in 7.62×39, you can do all the things the .300 blk will do from ONE gun. No, the .300 is not significantly better than any of the three cartridges you discus, but it is just-as, or damn-near-as-makes-no-difference as good as each of them, and again, its JUST ONE GUN. Also, i don;t care how “skilled” the hands are shooting the .45… they’re not going to magically change .45s ballistic coefficient, retained energy, or sectional density. I’m sure someone very well-versed in shooting a .45 could probably make hits on a target at 200 yds. But the ease with which they did so, and the effect of the rounds on that target are going to be dramatically different. and thats just comparing to subsonic .300 blk. If you’re using supersonic rounds it’d be like night and day.

          And just to be clear, not a .300 blk fanboi. Buddy has one that I shoot fairly frequently, and I’ve been impressed enough I’m planning on building a suppressed SBR AR in the next year or so.

          • valorius

            Come on now dude, a .45acp carbine is completely capable of making 200 meter shots and killing whatever it hits at that range quite dead. Maybe if you’re shooting at bears there’d be a difference, but .300 blk out is not optimized for that sort of shooting either.
            I’ll give ya this for the sake of open mindedness- a .300 blk out is better at penetrating soft body armor.

            A suppressed .30-30 does in ONE GUN everything .300 blk out does, but in a lever action platform.

            A 7.62x39mm does in ONE GUN everything .300 blk out does, but in an AK platform.

          • RocketScientist

            @ 200 yds, .45 acp will retain about 200 ft-lbf of kinetic energy. >300 blk will have over 800 at same range… thats equivalent performance in your book?

            Also, no a .30-30 lever gun will not have capacity of an AR. Will not have ergonomics. Will not relaod as quickly. And the .30-30 wil NOT perform same as a .300 blk out of a 9″ barrel (.300 was optimized for quick burn).

            Similarly, AK does not reliably cycle on the few subsonic 7.62×39 loadings out there (so far as I know, could be totally incorrect about that). Also significantly worse eprformance out of a 9″ barrel, whereas .300 blk loses almost nothing on short barreled actions.

          • Sermon 7.62

            It is incorrect. Subsonic ammo has been used since 1960’s in Russia.

          • iksnilol

            Incorrect, 7.62×39 works well out of short barrels. going to a 10 inch barrel nets like a 5-6% loss in velocity (IE negligible).

          • valorius

            depends on the round. From my old Marlin Camp Carbine .45acp i’d shoot Remington 185gr+P JHP ammo. From a 5″ 1911 it had over 550fpe of energy at the muzzle. From an 18″ carbine, it is PLENTY powerful enough to cleanly take any reasonable living target at 200 meters.

          • valorius

            Just did a little research. Underwood 185gr+P from an 18″ carbine should produce 1425fps and 834 fpe of energy at the muzzle. Doubletap and Buffalo bore also offer comparable loadings. I’m sure it will bleed off a lot of energy by 200 meters, but i suspect it will still have in excess of 400fpe of energy at 200 meters. And make a damn big, really deep hole.

            Plenty for a man or a deer.

          • iksnilol

            200 meters out of a PCC is mighty optimistic if we aren’t talking 5.7 or 7.62×25.

          • Jared Vynn

            Or 22tcm.

          • Anon

            By the way, soft points suck at going through armor, so before you try to use .22 TCM to go through armor, DON’T USE SOFT POINTS, it won’t work.

          • Jared Vynn

            True I think they failed at level iii out of a handgun with soft points, but using proper bullet types like some 5.7 loadings had and you would be good to go.

          • Anon

            And to clarify, I know you mean level IIIA, not level III, and I think I watched the same video, I think it was on Buffman’s channel.

            But anyway, yeah, if it has the proper bullet construction, it could go through, since it certainly has the velocity to do so, and 9mm itself can go through armor with proper bullets, like a solid copper spun bullet for instance.

          • Jared Vynn

            Yeah I forgot the “a” oops.

          • Anon

            No worries, I’ve made more embarrassing mistakes here.

          • valorius

            I used to have a .45 acp marlin camp carbine, i could make 200 meter shots all day long- with iron sights.

  • cwp

    300 Blackout seems to generate a lot of strong opinions — a lot of people really seem to like it, and a lot really seem to hate it.

    I think it makes sense as long as it’s in the context of the AR-15 platform — outside that, not so much. If you view it as an attempt to add capability to the AR-15, rather than as a thing in itself, then you can see the appeal: good subsonic performance, passable supersonic performance, in a package that fits in standard AR magazines and can be switched over to by popping two pins and changing the upper.

    Okay, you don’t really get anything out of it you can’t get out of other calibers, but from a logistics standpoint this is an enormous win. You don’t need another magazine. You don’t need to train your armorers on another gun. You don’t need to train your soldiers on another gun. You only need a small amount of new spare parts. If you want a round that does really well in short barrels and suppresses well — and it’s not hard to see why a military might want that capability — the logistical footprint from just adding .300 BLK to existing AR-15s is going to be a lot smaller than AR-15s plus some other gun that fills the same role .300 BLK does. Even for civilians, the utility of being able to turn an AR-15 into something that’s widely legal for deer hunting is a significant benefit … as long as you already have an AR-15.

    It’s not a be-all, end-all caliber by any means, and once you step outside the context of the AR platform, it starts to look like an answer to a question that nobody asked. (Or that only a few people asked, at any rate.) Still, it’s a useful round to have around, even if some of its design criteriae seem to have been more logistical than ballistic.

    • BillC

      The people who hate it generally seem to hate it because it’s gotten popular and probably never shot either 300blk or 5.56mm out of an SBR or a suppressor. It’s probably the same crowd who thinks the .45ACP in a 70 series 1911 is the only answer and only probably “accepted” 5.56mm last year. This is a different subset of caliber haters from say, people who hate 6.8 SPC(II) or 6.5 Grendel.

    • Younggun21

      Finally. So many here just don’t understand. 30-30 and 7.62×39 are being brought up as solutions? The .45acp? Last I checked, there isn’t an AR chambered in 30-30. Follow up shots aren’t nearly as easy with a lever gun, those that think it is should take one into Afghanistan and see how they do. I don’t care how many specialty rounds the Russians make in 7.62×39. First, they arent making it over the US civilian market. Second, AKs are not nearly as modular as ARs. 300blk uses the same boltcarrier and magazine on a platform that is more standardized, well known, and easier to acquire parts for.

      How is .45ACP even being considered? Is this the 1920s? I thought it was fairly well established at this point in time that rifle calibers are going to be superior to slow moving subsonic pistol loadings but apparently there are some still holding on to the idea that intermediate cartridges were foolish despite all evidence to the contrary mathematically and historically.

      • iksnilol

        Well, if you’re using subsonic then the aerodynamic shape of 300 BLK isn’t the most useful.

        • Younggun21

          Of course not, but the point is that you can switch mags and get rifle ballistics out of the same compact gun. Of course there are guns out there that accomplish a specific task better, like long range shooting or suppressing. But none do all of them out of a modular platform like the 300blk does. Those that insist upon brining 45acp, 30-30, and 7.62×39 into the conversation as a cartridge that does everything that 300blk does ignore all the benefits in favor of some concept of “it works for me”.

          • iksnilol

            Agree with you there. If I didn’t run an AK I’d look at 300 BLK to be honest.

          • Sermon 7.62

            But, if I’m not mistaken, the 308 can be subsonic, too?

          • iksnilol

            Yes, it can.

            Anything can be subsonic, really. But subsonic 308 isn’t done too often. I know that integrally suppressed AW and Sako rifles have 12″ barrels that become 20″ with the integrated suppressor. There are recommended to be only used with subsonic ammo.

          • Sermon 7.62

            And SR25, SCAR, HK417 don’t run it?

          • mig1nc

            The problem with subsonic .308 is that it is very hard to tune a single autoloading gun to fire both subs and supers in that caliber. That’s why .300Blk is so versatile. The super and sub characteristics are close enough that they can make it work. Maybe with a really adjustable gas block!

          • Anon

            But that completely ruins the round, why would you do that?

          • Sermon 7.62

            It’s quiet

          • Anon

            So? Use 9mm subsonics, 45 ACP, .300 Blackout, 9×39, anything else, because you’re wasting the .308 if you do that, because that’s an awfully big cartridge to make subsonic.

          • Sermon 7.62

            Subsonic complements supersonic, if the situation requires that

          • Anon

            If the guy with the .308 is filling the same role as the guy with a guy with an SMG/.300 Blackout, you’re doing something wrong, and should reconsider how you’re doing things, because subsonics aren’t very helpful for a Designated Marksman role.

          • Sermon 7.62

            In Russia, this is done like that. Subsonic ammo is used by recon troops, paratroopers, etc. if it is needed, or for assassinations and ambushes, and such things. One rifle, 10 kinds of ammo for various missions.

          • Anon

            Are they making shots past 600 yards?

            Name me ONE advantage to using subsonic .308, that I couldn’t get from using .300 Blackout.

          • ostiariusalpha

            400 gr subsonic bullet!! Just kidding. I wish someone would do it though.

          • Anon

            It certainly would be something fresh and different.

          • .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf?

          • Anon

            Out of a .308.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Not aerodynamic enough. Ah wunts muh soopah-doopah Seb-Sanik 3-oh-8 Winning!!

          • mig1nc

            .338 Federal Subsonic. It’s basically a giant blackout (.308 necked up).

          • Sermon 7.62

            It’s good to have subsonic ammo, if you have a 308 rifle and a suppressor. For some situations.

          • Anon

            They make .300 Blackout, for ANY situation that you want to shoot subsonic ammo, it can even use the same bullets as a .308.

            And you failed to specify the situations in which that would be useful.

          • FarmerB

            You’re not listening. Sermon said “if you have a 308 rifle and a suppressor”. Same as “if you have an AR, a 300 Blk barrel and a suppressor”. You seem to be arguing that if you have a 308 and a suppressor, instead of loading it with subsonic 308, you should switch to a 300blk in a different platform?

          • Anon

            I’m arguing in the context of “Can it cycle a semi-automatic?”, and I’m pretty sure the answer’s no, but if you know of any easily obtained semi-auto .308s that can cycle with subsonic .308s, feel free to tell me.

          • FarmerB

            Cannot answer in generalities – As I said above – adjustable gas system helps.

          • Anon

            Without an adjustable gas system? I wouldn’t want to screw around getting the gun to cycle, I would want to chamber a subsonic round and have it work immediately, with no fiddling around with the gas system.

          • FarmerB

            Huh? You don’t need a gas system to fire a round. You chamber it – it goes bang. No “fiddling”. Do you even know how a semi-auto works?

          • Anon

            If the gun doesn’t cycle a subsonic .308 because you failed to adjust the gas system properly, then no, it doesn’t “just chamber” after the first shot.

            Did you even read the comment?

          • FarmerB

            You miss the point – it depends on the job at hand. If I run a 308 DMR and I have a job to do that’s short range and needs some quietness, having a mag of this ammo means I don’t have to have a second rifle.

          • Anon

            Does it cycle the action?

          • FarmerB

            Depends on whether you have an adjustable gas block – all of my DMR’s do. In spite of that, I’ve mainly shot sub-sonics in a bolt. Anyway, it’s probably not a deal breaker if it doesn’t.

          • Anon

            So you have to adjust the gas system, you’re carrying heavier ammo, a heavier gun, and you’re losing magazine capacity, awesome.

          • FarmerB

            Yeah, and I can hit a dude at 1000 meters with it. Awesome!
            You don’t have to adjust anything – you want to take a short, extra-silenced shot, you just fire it. It might cycle by doing nothing – depends on the ammo. Adjusting gas block takes less time than a magazine change if you really need lots of follow up shots. But if you do, you’ve really failed. If you need to fire more than one shot, then you don’t need subsonic.

          • Anon

            Why bother with an adjustable gas system when you can just use .300 Blackout and not worry about it? And “might cycle” is like saying that a parachute “might open”.

            Keep in mind that I’m not a big fan of .300 Blackout.

          • FarmerB

            300 BLK as DMR? You joking? You really think you can effectively engage anything beyond 300m with a 110 gn .308? Seriously? Have you ever used a very light weight bullet in 308? Even the 123 gn from the AK is too light – although appropriate for the case length.
            A subsonic shot with suppressor should be a single shot anyway – not a big deal.
            If you have a gun that’s running rough you’d be bloody happy you have an adjustable gas regulator.

          • Anon

            Did I ever say that the guy with a .300 Blackout would be performing the DMR role? I’m sure I didn’t, I was arguing that subsonic .308 is a waste of the round, and that .300 Blackout can serve as an intermediate cartridge and a subgun round better than the .308 ever could, because you can alternate without messing with the gas system.

            If you have a .308, you’re not going to be the guy who’s covertly shooting people, because that’s not the role you’re performing, and if you are, you’re doing something wrong, because there are better options.

          • Ben Pottinger

            Subsonic just doesn’t work very well in 308, as most of us silencer owning reloaders know. It “works” just not very well or consistently. The problem is simply too much case volume. A lot more goes into internal ballistics than just the projectile size. Case volume, propellant volume, empty case volume, neck tension, etc etc. Not to mention the differences in weight and suggested twist rates between super and subsonic projectiles.

            I had a 300blk and loved it. The main issue for a non-hunting civilian is simple cost. If all I want is a quiet subsonic shoulder fired gun then 9mm males way more sense then 300blk. If ammo ever goes down in price it would be a lot easier to justify. even as a reloader the projectiles are outrageous. I think it’s because we are using match grade projectiles for subs since no one manufactures a cheap lower quality heavyweight 30 caliber projectile. Instead we use match projectiles intended for the 300WM or similar rifles.

          • FarmerB

            Yeah – agree all around. If you are always going to need a semi-auto with subsonic ammo, and your supersonic shots are only going to be less than 300 meters then the 308W is a poor choice. My point was merely to say that on the odd occasion you might need a subsonic round you are better off to stick one in the .308 you already have rather than get another gun. Not ideal – but solves the problem. If you are planning on firing a magazine full of subsonic, then either 1) you have the wrong solution or more likely 2) you don’t need subsonic.
            If you have an AR-15 in 5.56 – there is no realistic subsonic solution but is effective for maybe 0-500m. If you have a 300 BLK then you have a solution for supersonic which isn’t much good beyond 3-400m and works for subsonic. If you need to fire subsonic at close range all day out of a semi-auto – go for 300 – but I don’t see a widespread use case. I just think the 300, for 99% of the time is very limited solution to a problem that’s already mostly solved by a 308W DMR, an AR-15 carbine and a 9mm SBR.

          • AirborneSoldier

            Barely any recoil with a 30 cal round appeals to some

          • AirborneSoldier

            Key question. Mine wont except with the lighter grain stuff. I use an ar pistol in 300 for deer hunting.otherwise the round is great for cqb, which i no longer do. If my state didnt allow the ar pistol with this caliber for deer i wouldnt have it

        • Jared Vynn

          It’s better than 45acp or 9mm subs though, aerodynamically wise.

          • Anon

            No arguments there.

          • iksnilol

            You’re missing my point. An ideal shape for subsonic projectiles is a tear drop shape. BC sorta changes with velocity. What is ideal shape for one velocity isn’t ideal for another.

          • guest

            No it’s not. Same kind of laws of aerodynamics apply to bullets as to aircraft and the like, and there the laws are relatively few and they are relatively simple: if supersonic – the bullet should be as “thin” cross-section wise as possible, and if supersonic or subsonic it should be to decrease drag it should follow the “area rule”. So no, anything that is not as slender, long, and with very smooth likes as say a good Berger bullet will not perform as well and will have more drag, even at subsonic speeds. As long as bullets go faster than say 150m/s they need to follow the area rule, as simple as that.

          • iksnilol

            Terminal efficency will be lower with the slender bullet since it is less likely to expand (and forget about fragmentation).

            + most of the drag on a subsonic bullet is at the base.

          • George

            No, the Area Rule is applicable to transonic (Mach 0.75-0.8 and up) not “anything over 150 m/s” which is only M 0.45 or so.

            Before you hit compressibility effects the minimum drag shapes look nothing like area ruled. See for example the Parsons paper at the CAFE Foundation website. Darn, going to have to paste the URL in second post, editing is messing up.

      • Kivaari

        The whole idea was to WISPER. A .300/220 OTM was giving .45/230FMJ velocities and energies. A rifle that gave supporessed .45 performance in a modern package. That is why the .45 gets compared, it’s always been about those two cartridges. WE can have a .45 in a purpose built AR. It’s easier to throw a .300 upper on an AR lower to get the same performance,without needing an entirely new rifle.

    • gunsandrockets

      So far in the controversy rankings we have:

      6.8mm SPC with 9 comments

      7.62x39mm with 20 comments

      5.56x45mm with 30 comments

      6.5mm Grendel with 67 comments

      and finally…

      .300 AAC Blackout with 184 comments!

      • cwp

        184 is minor league. If we don’t break 300 I’ll be disappointed.

        • Jared Vynn

          100 to go.

          • Anon

            I’m glad to have contributed.

        • Anon

          Your wish has been granted. 🙂

      • ostiariusalpha

        67 for the Grendel, but not much arguing. Where are the zany 6.8 guys to spice things up?

        • Anon

          I don’t know, but I’ve caused over 60 comments, if you combine how many comments I’ve made and how many replies people have made to my comments.

  • Vitor Roma

    The 220gr ballistics are quite crazy. I love it!

    • Mazryonh

      You wouldn’t think so, but there is in fact a specific pistol caliber loading, the 10mm Auto with a 220 gr bullet, which when loaded to a just-subsonic muzzle velocity achieves similar ballistics to that of 220 gr. bullets used in subsonic .300 Blackout.

  • Sermon 7.62

    Don’t be too serious. I tease people sometimes.

  • YZAS

    Gees, all you have to do is say “300 Blackout” and you get 183 comments …well, 184 now.

    I’m sure my opinion is some mix mash of everything mentioned below, so I won’t even bother trying to elaborate.

    • Anon

      Aw come on, we need more debates.

    • Jared Vynn

      Over 320 now.

  • gunsandrockets

    That all copper bullet load for the .300 AAC is fascinating. Light but nice and long and pointy bullet. It reminds me of the old CETME 7.62x51mm intermediate cartridge concept brought back to life.

  • DIR911911 .

    how about 16 in barrels like the majority of us are likely to purchase?

  • Jared Vynn

    Without artillery sights.

  • valorius

    You’ll never be shooting to 800 with yours.

  • Kivaari

    What’s the real scoop on accuracy with sub-sonic ammunition. The excellent Sierra Matchking bullets going subsonic usually means the bullet go unstable as well. So starting out at what is normally unstable seems like the accuracy would not be very good. But, if it is used like the .45 ACP as a suppressed gun for ~50m maybe it’s good enough. Just how does the 220 gr. OTN compare to .45 ACP from a modern DeLisle type carbine?

    • Duray

      Being fired subsonic is different from “going” subsonic. It’s the transition that’s bad: not necessarily subsonic speed itself. So yes if you’re taking a 1000 yard shot with a 300 win mag, your bullet dropping through the sound barrier won’t do you any favors. But that doesn’t make a subsonic bullet inaccurate.

  • Kivaari

    From a real world point of view I see no need for a modular AR rifle capable of firing the .300 Whisper. Who really needs one. In many if not most settings a suppressed weapon gets fired a couple times, then all hell breaks loose. Shoot the barking dog, and likely there will be a big bullet slap, and a yelping dog. Shoot the guard and chances are they wont go down like in the movies but will still sound an alarm. Maybe even return fire. Suppressed rifles can sure be fun. They do have a place on the battle field, like a full power 5.56mm or 7.62x51mm having cans that disguise the shooters location. Whacking the tail-end-Charlie usually alerts all those troops close by. A bullet slap in the quiet of night is loud. Getting a one-shot-stop and silent death is not likely. I think too much Hollywood is making its way into the discussion.

    • CommonSense23

      Except the people who are actually using this actually are killing people quietly enough that no one knows what’s happening.

      • Kivaari

        Is anyone ACTUALLY using it?

        • CommonSense23

          Yes. Its in use by JSOC. And its already built a amazing reputation.

      • Kivaari

        I just know that with rare exceptions dogs and people don’t go quietly into the night after getting shot. Many times, if not most it takes multiple hits. I’d like to read actual after-action-reports of its use in the field. Can you direct me to REAL reports?

        • CommonSense23

          You really think you are going to find AARs from JSOC open source?

  • Kivaari

    Nathaniel, Are there any REAL public sources showing the military use of the .300 in combat? I can’t find anything beyond internet chatter saying it is being “used a lot”. I suspect it has not been used much.

  • Joe Gamer

    I love my 300 blackout pistol to bits, As an intermediate/cqb range, compact weapon it is the bees knees. Far better than .556 out of a 10.5″ barrel. First time I ran it we ended up punching holes in some of our 3/8th inch steel targets with 147 grain FMJ’s. We have pounded them with .556 and 7.62×39 for months but it was 300 Blackout that broke them. Outstanding performance in a short barreled package and a long established(.308) selection of bullets to accommodate a wide variety of purposes. Aside from the price I see nothing to dislike here.