TFB Writers MOA All Day Challenge- Rusty S.

You did say "All day", Right?

You did say "All day", Right?

For this challenge, I used two firearms.  In anticipation of pronghorn season, I brought out my 6.5 Grendel AR. For the other firearm, when Pete first brought up the challenge with the title “MOA All Day”, I immediately thought of a belt-fed with a quick change barrel, as they can shoot “All Day” a bit better than other firearms.

Firearm 1:

My Setup:

  • Ohio Ordnance Works M240SLR
  • Standard M240 Bipod
  • Elcan Specter DR DFOV14-C2 set on 1x power as specified for 50yards per the challenge
  • Black Hills 168gr BTHP

Photos:

Firearm

Firearm

Optic set to 1x as required

Optic set to 1x as required

Target (Holes at top center are from ranging shots to adjust for impact difference for 50yards vs zero distance)

Target (Holes at top center are from ranging shots to adjust for impact difference for 50yards vs zero distance)

P7122416

Target w/calipers on tighest group

Target w/calipers on tightest group

Raw Data:

.948, .955, 1.212, 1.232, 1.365

Subtracting bullet diameter of .308 to get center-center:

.64, .647, .904, .924, 1.057

Average:

.834

MOA at 50 Yards (in inches:

.5235

MOA:

.834/.5235= 1.59 MOA average

 

Firearm 2:

My Setup:

  • Les Baer Custom 16″ 6.5 Grendel upper receiver
  • POF-USA P-415 lower
  • Timney Trigger
  • Magpul Furniture
  • Grip Pod (1st gen)
  • Swarovski Z6 1.7-10×42
  • Alexander Arms 123gr Lapua Scenar BTHP

Photos:

Target confirmed at 100 yards using rangefinder

Target confirmed at 100 yards using rangefinder

Shot target still on frame frame

Shot target still on frame frame

Smallest group

Smallest group

Excuse the scribbles, my micrometer was not zeroing out correctly, giving smaller values than it should. Changing the batteries fixed the problem.

Excuse the scribbles, my micrometer was not zeroing out correctly, giving smaller values than it should. Changing the batteries fixed the problem.

Raw Data:

.60, .696, .833, .995, 1.15

Subtracting bullet diameter of .264 to get center-center:

.344, .44, .577, .739, .894

Average:

.5988″

MOA at 100 yards (in inches):

1.047″

MOA:

.5988/1.047= .572 MOA average

Observations:

There’s always room for improvement, and the fundamentals of shooting cannot be ignored.  Shooting the 240 for groups was hilariously fun, despite the not-so-match trigger and the rather long lock time.  The CX5936 Reticle is pretty thick and I did not have it mounted up in an M192 Tripod, so I had to be careful. I did really enjoy shooting the challenge with a firearm that can shoot MOA literally all day, given enough ammo and another barrel.  As far as the 6.5 Grendel AR goes, I could improve, but I was pretty happy with the results.  Where I got myself into trouble and larger groups was in getting impatient with the wind and rushing a few shots.  This was a very fun challenge, I look forward to doing it again in the future with some different firearms.  Thanks, Pete!



Rusty S.

Having always had a passion for firearms, Rusty S. has had experience in gunsmithing, firearms retail, hunting, competitive shooting, range construction, as an IDPA certified range safety officer and a certified instructor. He has received military, law enforcement, and private training in the use of firearms. He is fortunate enough to have access to class 3 weaponry as well.


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  • Giolli Joker

    “I immediately thought of a belt-fed with a quick change barrel, as they can shoot “All Day” a bit better than other firearms.”

    Game and match.

    Oh, wait… Alex C. has a Browning M2…

  • Pete – TFB Writer

    This. Is. Awesome. I saw the title picture and was sure it was a mistake. Well done.

    And great shooting!

    • Rusty S.

      Thank you!

  • Pete – TFB Writer

    That bottom right group is smoking. I have a lot of work to do.

    • Rusty S.

      Thanks, Pete!

      • Chris

        This is also the same name that was belittling the Seals on the comments section off the article here on TFB that discussed the SR team that got killed during Operation Red Wings. Seems like no matter the subject he/she/it is the expert and nothing you do will ever measure up to their standards.

        What would make the 240 groups perfection is if they were shot full auto!! You’re slacking Rusty 😉

        • Rusty S.

          Good suggestion! I do have access to a post sample MAG58. The top cover and rear sight need some serious TLC in order to get it close to being a precision gun. Maybe next time I’ll do a full auto one with an H&K G3 though…

    • CommonSense23

      Why don’t you guys make the requirement that all shots have to be shot on the same target instead of cherry picking your data.

      • Pete – TFB Writer

        They are all on the same target. I’m confused.

        • CommonSense23

          But your target has 5 poa with 5 different poi centers. If you overlayed the taget and counted it as a 25 round group it wouldn’t be MOA.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            The groups are averaged. There’s no cherry picking.

            25 rounds on one POA would eat a hole in the target, with no where left to aim

          • CommonSense23

            So overlay the 5 individual groups then. You have 5 different POIs for the same POA. If your gun is truly MOA capable, and you are. You would have all your rounds impacting within a .5 minute of your POA. But you don’t.

          • Schnee

            I keep reading your comments and I can’t make sense of what you are suggesting. The whole exercise is meant to shoot 5 different groups of 5. That’s the way the challenge is constructed. For convenience, he did it on the same piece of paper with five different points of aim. Central limit theorem, my good man.

            POA/POI vs grouping doesn’t matter for this exercise. It is measuring precision, not accuracy. If you want to throw that in, then have at it. But that that’s not the point.

            Mathematically, a 25 shot group is likely to be quite a bit larger because you increase the likelihood with each additional shot of getting an outlier. That’s why they are doing 5-shot groups instead of 3-shot groups–anyone can get lucky with 3-shot groups. 5 is about right for ferreting out lucky groups and not getting unlucky with huge groups. I don’t know of anyone in the world (militaries excepted?) that does 25-shot groups.

          • CommonSense23

            The issue is he has 5 slightly different POIs with the same POA. If his gun is accurate. Than the gun isn’t as precise as he is making it out.

          • Rusty S.

            While I had no issue with your comprehension of the challenge, i find it strange that you now question my integrity. I was following the guidelines of the challenge, and submitted the required data. I have plenty of high round count groups in my DOPE books, but that’s not what this particular challenge called for. Sounds like this is a good opportunity for you to create your own challenge and go try it out.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            I think Rusty and his rifle are actually MORE accurate than he is making out. This challenge is harder than pulling the trigger 25x on one target.

          • Schnee

            Dude, you need to enroll in a statistics course. I think your head is no bueno. This feels like talking with a stubborn teenager with lots of conviction and not much smarts. Extend your weird logic and ask yourself why we are not doing 1000-round groups. Why? Moar bullets better, right? The answer is that with 1000 rounds, given the distribution of bullet locations and assuming some kind of Gaussian distribution of hole locations, we’d expect to find a few serious outliers. Same with 100 rounds and probably for 25, too. Five is a nice number for these purposes. Better than three but not too large.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            I guess I’m not understanding the issue of using five different POAs on one target. Five five-shot groups is the challenge. One 25 shot group would be a different challenge.

          • CommonSense23

            What challenge would that be. Actually shooting MOA all day long. If he shot 5 different targets. Aiming dead center on each on. And measured each group individually. Instead of overlaying them. You don’t see the issue with that.

          • Isn’t this challenge ripped directly from ARFCOM? I would take it up with them, then, I guess.

          • CommonSense23

            It doesn’t matter who came up with challenge. Its puts out a false understanding of what’s a actual 1 minute round/rifle and shooter.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            Would one five round group make you an MOA shooter? Three? 10?

            You have any references to show one 25 round group is preferred?

            Maybe I’m dumb, but I still don’t get it.

          • CommonSense23

            Your own data shows that a 25 round group is a better representation of the facts.
            Let’s try this your data you posted couple days shows all but one group were sub MOA. And one group would have been good except for 1 round. So same gun and ammo. Allow you to get a perfect zero. Put up 25 1inch circle pasties at 100 yards. How many of them with the data you came to, would you be able to hit?

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            Five round groups makes the shooter adjust POA. It’s part of the challenge. The shooter is being tested, not a gun in a vise.

            25 dots is a different challenge all together. Precision vs accuracy.

            There are many ways to measure precision rifle skills. I’m saying this challenge is one of those. Not the end-all-be-all.

            Try it, you might actually like it. 😉

          • CommonSense23

            Was your point of aim on each target the same?

          • Rusty S.

            I think that “What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate. Some men, you just can’t reach”.

          • CommonSense23

            Your own data as someone pointed out in the comments showed the gun shot roughly a 1.5MOA 25 group which is amazing for a semi auto 5.56 with over the shelf ammo. That’s a good gun and ammo combo. But its not 1MOA or better.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            R99 is a statistical approximation. It’s not telling you what you actually shot.

          • CommonSense23

            I really feel you are trying to troll me right now.

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            I’m honestly not. I’m trying to understand. And I’m curious enough now to shoot one 25 round group.

            Maybe the name of the challenge is misleading?

            I get that the dispersions were off from my groups. My ammo wasn’t all from the same lot, different mags, barrel cooled while I took notes, mirage cover adjustments, wind, acts of God. I don’t know.

            But that’s the challenge, testing the shooter with the gear and ammo you have.

          • Ehhhh, the probability of shooting 5 groups of 5 rounds that all each come under 1 MOA but that represent a group that together would be substantially short of 1 MOA would be pretty slight.

            Yes, if you change targets your POI may change, especially if you’re shooting from NPOA and aren’t so worried about your actual POA. Does that make sense?

          • CommonSense23

            I can’t tell you how many times I have tested accuracy where going from 5 to 10 opens up half minute groups to over 1 inch.

          • Yep, that’s very common. What I was saying is different. If you shoot 5 consistent 5 shot groups under 1 inch, then the likelihood is very high that you can shoot a 10-shot group under one inch, as well.

          • CommonSense23

            Unless he changed the POA in between groups. Then weren’t consistent groups. They were tight groups with different POI which is the issue.
            I’ve seen this so many times when people try to sight in M855. They shoot a type 5 round groups. A tight group for M855. Like 1.5MOA. Then make a adjustment off of that. Then there next group is off by 2 MOA. And so they go chasing their tight 5 round groups for 30 minute not understanding why they can’t get a group to center back to back.

          • I get your concern, and I’ve seen that happen too.

          • CommonSense23

            By the way. Do you have any knowledge of the 80gr 5.56 load blackhills makes?

          • Can’t say I do, sorry.

          • Pete – TFB Writer
          • Pete – TFB Writer

            Seeing as how hundreds of people have shot this challenge, some of them being professional marksman, and no one has ever made this argument before, I don’t see any issue with the groupings.

            Is this a statistical issue for you or a technical issue.

            Either way, this is the challenge. You can create your own own challenge if you’d like. But this is MOA All Day.

          • CommonSense23

            Here is a question. Let’s say we take a rifle. Bolt it to down on a inside range. Fire five, five round groups. And measure the group and it comes out to 1.5MOA.
            Now same gun, same range, same ammo. A shooter shoots the same groups. But the shooter just averages the five groups independent of each other, than averages the five averages together.
            He comes to its a 1MOA gun and ammo.
            Which one is more accurate of of representation of the gun and round. Is it a 1MOA gun and round. Or 1.5MOA?

          • Pete – TFB Writer

            What group is the bolted rifle measuring? Not an average but the best group? The worst group?

            So this is a sample size issue? But in your suggestion to dial in different POAs doesn’t solve a sample size problem.

          • CommonSense23

            Also if you are worried about. The rounds eating a hole. You can just dial so your POI is up and right of your POA. Then just aim at the bottom left target.

  • THE_manBEar

    Wow that’s some nice shooting Tex – I may have missed it in the article, but are you using your own reloads for the 6.5 or is that store-bought ammo?

    • Rusty S.

      Thank you, bought it directly from Alexander Arms.

  • Schnee

    I like a dude who rocks a $50,000 gun and uses a $9.98 micrometer from Harbor Freight to measure his groups. That is the very definition of Keepin’ it Real. Good show!

    • Rusty S.

      Neither of this firearms was anywhere in the realm of 50k to purchase. Which one did you think was? Any micrometer suggestions?

      • Schnee

        I figured the M60 was in that range. I have UTG rings holding up a Schmidt and Bender on a SCAR 17, so I appreciate selective cheapness! I say stick with Harbor Freight!

        • Rusty S.

          Thanks!

          • Schnee

            I think if I had that gun, I’d be sitting there staring at it creepily with a Dremel and an AK Slidefire stock. Nice gun.

        • Not Gersh Kuntzman

          Its a semiauto version of the M240 made by OOW. Retails for $14,000. Still pricy…but nowhere near $50,000.

      • FarmerB

        Mitutoyo are rock solid, if a little pricey.

  • Not Gersh Kuntzman

    Belt-fed with 168gr ammo…sounds expensive.

    • Rusty S.

      Expensive indeed. I usually use Austrian 147gr, but broke out the good stuff for this challenge.

  • QuadGMoto

    I thought I would give this a try this weekend. I took 3 different .22 rifles out to the range and 4 different levels of ammo. I only had time to shoot two of the rifles.

    Rifles: Ruger 10/22 Anniversary Design Winner with a lot of gunsmith tweeks and a Burris 4x fixed scope. Browning T-Bolt Varmint (heavy barrel) with a Leupold VX-2 3-9x Ultralight. (Significantly better than the Burris!)

    Ammo: Wolf Match Extra, Lapua Center-X, Lapua Midas +, Lapua Midas M (previous generation Midas)

    8. 10/22 with Match Extra: 1.9003 MOA (first shots of the day. My heart was pounding too hard, made worse by the .223 being fired next to me.)

    7. T-Bolt with Match Extra: 1.8762 MOA

    6. T-Bolt with Center-X: 1.5221 MOA

    5. T-Bolt with Midas M: 1.1954 MOA

    4. 10/22 with Midas +: 1.1629 MOA

    3. 10/22 with Midas M: 1.1320 MOA

    2. 10/22 with Center-X: 1.1064 MOA

    1. T-Bolt with Midas +: 1.0288 MOA
    (0.856, 0.558, 0.420, 0.434, 0.425 inches)

    Oh so close! But no cigar.

    Best individual group of the day was from the 10/22 with Center-X: 0.261 inch or 0.4986 MOA

    This challenge is even tougher than I thought.