Can You Shoot MOA All Day Long?

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Whether online or in person, we have all met that one shooter who claims their super special rifle (and finger) can shoot “1/4 MOA all day long”. First, ask them to explain the definition of MOA.  After they stumble through some strange combination of MILs and MOA, they will probably head back to their bench grumbling. (Or they will just log off the internet for a few hours).

Thankfully there’s a call-out made for guys just like the one above. Made famous on forums like AR15.com and snipershide.com, the ‘MOA All-Day’ challenge is a way to say “prove it” to your loud mouthed buddy and his tricked out Remington 700.

MOA All-Day is a relatively simple test of rifle skills that can humble even the best of shooters. You see, whether they are embellishing their marksmanship prowess or not, most casual shooters rely on a single three-shot group to prove themselves worthy of the next sniper school call-up. But the problem with three shot groups is that they don’t encompass a large enough sample size to label a shooter and their rifle as sub-MOA.

The challenge is centered around a single sheet of paper with five targets (or simply dots) in which the shooter will shoot five, five-shot groups. Anything more or less than 25 rounds showing on paper disqualifies the target. And, before you start dusting off your ransom rest or shooting vice, MOA All-Day is meant to test the shooter’s skills, not the gun’s mechanical abilities. As such, there are some simple, yet particular rules that are required of each shooter.

Pick a rifle:

Almost any rifle will do, but the cartridge, action and optic types will determine the suggested distance at which you will shoot.

Pick a distance:

For the sake of brevity, I am going to simplify the rifle/optic/range competition.

Rimfire rifles – 25 yards for iron sights and 50 yards for any optics is the norm.

Centerfire rifles – 50 yards for iron sights and non-magnified optics. Rifles with magnified optics get pushed out to 100 yards.

Setup:

You can shoot in any position as long as you are in control of your rifle and are not relying on mechanical sleds, vices, braces and overly-large sandbags. Shooters can use a squeeze bag or small wedge to support the stock.

Other details:

All five groups must be shot in a reasonable amount of time in one day (i.e. not one group per day).

The distance you are shooting at should be verified with a range finder or known distance markings.

Pictures should be taken of your equipment setup in position, the range/distance with your rifle in the foreground, your target on the stand, the measurement of your smallest group and your target with MOA calculations written next to each grouping.

Groups should be measured from edge to edge, then subtracting the diameter of a bullet. For example, if the largest spread of a group for a .223 AR15 is 1.0″ (edge to edge) the group size is actually 1.0 – .224 = .776.

Don’t forget to list the details about your gun, optic and ammunition.

Helpful information:

1 MOA @ 100 Yards = 1.047″
1 MOA @ 50 Yards.  = 0.5235″
1 MOA @ 25 Yards   = 0.26175″

Example:

MOA1

MOA2

Results:

List your performance as follows –

Pete M., 10/22, Volquartsen bbl, Timney trigger, Hawke 8-32x, Eley 40gr hollow point :

.374″ + .514″ + .57″ + .655″ + .483″ AVG = 0.5192″ = (.5192/.5235) = .992 MOA

I wouldn’t brag about my skills based on this target, but at least it is MOA.

So, can you shoot MOA all day long?


CALL OUT: Nathaniel F., Nicholas C, Katie A., Alex C., Adam S., Tom R., Nathan S., Erik B., Miles V., Richard J., Rusty S., Pete M.*!

Not because any of you have made wild claims – I just want to see TFB trigger pullers pick their favorite rifle and punch some small groups.

(Why not Phil or Steve? That’s what I would call a no-win scenario for me – never call out the bosses.)

* I’m calling myself out on my 18″ .223 AR. 



Pete

LE – Science – OSINT.
On a mission to make all of my guns as quiet as possible.
Pete.M@staff.thefirearmblog.com


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  • PK

    What a fun challenge! I’ll have to see what I can do with some of my favorites, as well.

  • m-cameron

    100yds centerfire?…..could they make that any easier?

    Jesus, make that 100yds rimfire and 600yds centerfire and then you’ll have something….and even then, that’s not all that hard….

    God, if you’re not shooting sub-moa in this “challenge” you should be ashamed……

    • Pete M

      Consider yourself “called out”. It’s harder than it looks.

      • m-cameron

        I’m ans NRA master prone shooter and former NCAA rifle shooter…..trust me….I know how “hard it is…….its not

        • Schnee

          Less typing, more shooting.

        • Dan

          Ok you can go now, you’re one of the internet “badasses” we all make fun of.

        • notalima

          Are you ‘that guy’? If not, you’re making a heroic attempt…

      • m-cameron

        Oh, and here’s my answer to your “callout”…….10 shot 1 MOA group with a 22lr @100yds, shot from a sling at Nationals last year……

        • Pete M

          25 shots. Five targets. One sheet of paper. That’s the challenge.

          It’s not like there’s a cash or a trophy at the end.

          • m-cameron

            yes, well seeing as i heard about this literally today at work, pardon me for not being able to get out and shoot the proper targets for you…..

            but seeing as im shooting 1 MOA at 100yds with a 22……doing the same at 50 isnt much of a challenge for me…..

          • Pete M

            You missed the point. No one cares if you shoot it or not. It’s a challenge for yourself.

            It’s supposed to be fun. You are making it not fun.

            Do it or don’t. But stop sh*tting on my challenge.

          • John

            Being able to poke holes in a paper target with a ball point pen doesn’t count.

            JK

          • Michael every comment you have made since signing up a few days ago has been negative, combative or very troll like.
            We don’t need these kinds of comments. Play nice or go someplace else and be negative.
            Last chance to change the tone nobody wants to hear it—–

    • Schnee

      Ummm, the beautiful thing about MOA, and it was part of the point he was making here, is that it is scaled to distance. Not sure you understood this. Shooting quarter inch at 25 yards with irons is serious. Sub 1″ at 100, Sub 6″ at 600, and sub 10″ at 1000 should not be much more challenging. Wind and humidity and coriolis start to figure at those distances, but do it on a calm day and use your smartphone.

      And since it appears you are hitting from the PGA tees, how about follow the rules and show us 4 .5 MOA groups at the easy 100 yard distance?

      • m-cameron

        Reading and adjusting for wind and mirage at those distances IS the hard part…….any tard can shoot a MOA group with a centerfire rifle at 100yds…..unless you live in tornado alley, there is really no adjustment you need to make at that range………pushing that out to 600ydsand adjusting for conditions seperats the yahoo from someone who knows what they are doing…

        And where the hell are you that you have a 600yd range with no conditions?

        • Schnee

          the point stands that this challenge was made for Internet sharpshooters like you. Load up!

    • The_Champ

      Haha, why such disgust at this challenge?

      My experience is that the majority of shooters, and rifles, are not capable of CONSISTENTLY shooting 1 MOA groups. Myself and my rifles included.

    • John

      What you must realize is that we don’t all shoot Rem 700s in 6.5 Creedmoor. Try your “easy” 1 MOA with with a $400 unmodified .308 with .40 cent a round PPU ammo.

      The challenge is not to get 1 MOA from a $7000 sniper rifle, the challenge is for the rest of us shooting 18″ ranch rifles with a $300 scope who can only afford to shoot PMC Bronze.

      Equipment CAN change the game regardless or your skill level…or can you still easily get 1 MOA with a Saiga AK?

      • Bob

        Bet Rob Ski of AK Operators Union could. ;D

        • John

          Yes Bob, but HE would be able to do it with his eyes closed!

          • Bob

            I shot at an Appleseed recently with my Wasr10, figuring if Rob Ski can manage to sneak a one inch group at a hundred yards out of one in one of his videos, surely I could get Rifleman (AKA Expert) on the AQT. That’s not so hard, 4 MOA would do it, but no, this was not to be. I got close though, so next time, next time…

      • n0truscotsman

        I can with a Vepr but its not easy by any means. 😀

      • All the Raindrops

        Go look at the moa all day rankings, nobody is using ranch rifles lol.

    • Lt M

      All I’ve seen for over the last few days is you crapping on pretty much every post on TFB. It seems to me that if you don’t like the content they’re posting, you should stop coming to the website and keep the negativity and braggadocio to yourself.

      • Dan

        When your stuck in your moms basement most of your adult life, you have a lot of time to build up anger and stories to impress the internet.

  • Nimrod

    Seriously, you can shoot off a rest? Make non supported except a sling and maybe you have a challenge.

    • Schnee

      Called out!

  • Big Daddy

    Some days I shoot pretty good others not so good. I’m older and crippled and it depends a lot on the weather and the condition of my body.

    • Ed Forney

      I hear ya.

    • John

      Why do you think I went from 9X to 16X to 24X, for me to hit a 1 inch target, it has to look like beach ball!

  • Oh sure, I’ll get right to shooting below 1 MOA with my 1915 Carl Gustav. 😉

    Maybe I’ll ask Alex if he’ll let me use his PSG-1…

    • Pete M

      Nice!

    • iksnilol

      put in a full auto trigger pack. Less time spent shooting, means less time to screw up 😛

  • Don Ward

    No. I can only shoot MOA All Night Long. And then only when a Lionel Richie song is playing on the tape deck.

    • Pete M

      Keep trying. You’ll get there.

      (I’m referring to your comedy, not shooting skills)

    • Please, god help us!

      Would that be an 8-track tape deck? If so, where do you wedge the matchbook, top or bottom?

  • Major Tom

    I’m tempted to try this with my Mosin. I’ll need some new targets for measuring.

    All I’d need to do is keep my grouping below 2.9cm at 100 meters. Something I’m not sure I can do.

    • The_Champ

      Hah, I know not all Mosins are made equal, but the last time I tried to group my M44 the best three shots I squeezed out were about 4 inches at 100 meters.

      Granted there is always a major disadvantage with open sights, but I have been able to plug 1 5/8th inch groups with my K31 from time to time, so decent groups are possible with stock sights on old milsurps.

      • All the Raindrops

        K31 and the Mildurp ammo ate accurate

    • Bob

      No way I could do that with my Mosin. If you can, the more power to you.

    • This will be impossible to record and prove, because the dragon breath flame explosion coming out of the Russian beast will incinerate the target 100 yards away!

      • Major Tom

        With an Obrez maybe.

  • Tyler McCommon

    I’ll try my Enfield or perhaps M39

  • ElderAmbassador

    I have two centerfire rifles, OK, maybe 3, that have done this several times. My loads are tailored to each rifle (1 in 300 WM, 1 in 30’06, and the maybe last in 7 RM) after a long process for each. Both of the first two have done it time after time, from a rest. The 7 RM is fairly new, only a few years shooting, and has SO FAR done it. But the first two have been doing this (3/4″) for many years. When I finally got that “magic” load I put together a number of those hunting loads. I Think the 7 RM will continue to do it, but I’ll see.
    Because those rifles can do this, I can only blame myself when I don’t live up to Their expectations!

  • Bob

    Oh please, this is way too easy. I prefer to blindfold myself and shoot one inch groups at six hundred yards duel wielding 1911s. I also consult for Hollywood movies, if you couldn’t tell…

    In all seriousness, my questionable skill + cheap guns + cheap ammo = 2-4 MOA most of the time. I was pretty pleased with myself for repeatedly dinging a metal gong at 300 meters with my AK the other day, which should tell you all you need to know about my skills and choice of percision firearms.

  • John

    SIR!

    You have given me purpose!

    I am just getting over my loss of the perfect ammo from Australian Outback. I bought 200 rounds for $15 a box and was getting about 1 MOA each time after testing lots of other brands to get there. I just found out the company no longer sells to my store but will let me buy it for $30 a box! No thanks. I am about to embark on a new set of trails to find the perfect, inexpensive .308 ammo. My 18″ ranch love 168 gr but I am going to try again with 147 and up. Once I find the sweet spot ammo again I would love to try this. I admit I think of MOA testing as 3 shot groups because of barrel heating but 5 shot seems to be the standard these days.

    • Holdfast_II

      Did you check Aim Surplus online? I know they used to stock it.

      • John

        I did and they don’t have it.

        Fun fact, it say this on their website “Although
        not identical, the 7.62×51mm NATO and .308 Winchester cartridges are
        similar enough that they can be loaded into rifles chambered for the
        other round.”

        YIKES!!!

        • DwnRange

          Here’s the skinny on your YIKES: (by folks that know, by Clint McKee and Walt Kuleck, which you can find thru Fulton Armory)

          “They are the same, ’cause nobody (and Clint’s been looking for many years!) makes 7.62MM ammo that isn’t to the .308 “headspace” dimension spec. So 7.62MM ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.

          But in some 7.62MM rifles the chambers are long (to the 7.62MM
          military spec), notably the Navy Garands with 7.62MM barrels. Thus, using commercial ammo in such a rifle is not a good idea; you need stronger brass. Use military ammo or the best commercial only, e.g., Federal Gold Medal Match.

          Most of the time it’s a distinction without a difference. But if you
          intend to shoot .308 commercial in a military arm chambered for 7.62MM, first check the headspace with .308 commercial gauges first.”

          So unless you are using an old Garand the site was correct (btw: not part of the article but, I like using LC 308 brass in my 308/7.62 loads).

          This is much the same as the “5.56 vs .223” issues, which for the most part is the same “much ado about nothing” – suggest you go to Lucky Gunner Labs site and read their .”5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong” article – if you are interested, good article.

    • John Mood

      Or knuckle down and reload. Meticulously measure each charge, meticulously prepare your cases, prime and seat thee projectiles with the same meticulous methods, and your groups will shrink a little..

      I’ve seen my own groupings shrink some with this. Enough to be worth the trouble. And it’s way cheaper.

    • John

      NOW I see why the 5 shot grouping is so difficult. As you can see, my first 3 shots on target are great, then I start to falter. Once I get a nice 3 shot group, I am trying SO hard to get the other two that I overcompensate and screw them up. Very frustrating!

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d1e076776953ad996a6df851c240bab305a8aebea72801d146f2c58f5192c58d.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/513cf0e8955d4d6bc41ac44a313eac5f8ad65c1f9e3fec23919c8ebf0c5f3e75.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ab58b864b9dd20c9c137912830ce604ca28d5844da59472390c02f515bf17ca0.jpg

      • John

        BTW, the smaller numbers are the first 3 shots followed by the larger numbers which are the 5 shots together. Each 5 shot group is done in about 1-2 minutes so I did not have much time to let the barrel cool down between shots.

        • Pete M. – TFB Writer

          Awesome!

          The numbers don’t matter. As long as you are improving.

          Great job.

          • John

            My question is, why 5 shots not 3? If I am shooting at game and need more than 3 shots, I should get a new hobby. If I am shooting a rifle for defensive purposes and need more than 3 shots from a bolt action, again, I am playing the wrong game. The barrel gets much hotter from 5 shots taken closely together and takes longer to cool down which affects accuracy. Why not 10? or 20? What are we trying to prove with 5?

            Just a question.

  • With my duty GA Precision Rock in .308, yes. With my Savage 111 combo hunting rifle in .30-06, mmmm not likely, but maybe (especially with the Hornady SST I’ve been using).

    Sounds like a great challenge for fun with my less than $1000 hunting rifles. Thanks for the post Pete.

    • Pete M

      A GA Precision setup in .308 is on my list of ‘someday must have’ guns!

      • I’m spoiled. The GA shop is less than an hour away, and the guys are pretty good with us, so we get to fondle new rifles when we’re down there. Recently we tested the GAP-10, semi-auto .308. Let’s just say manufacturing has come a LONG way for semi-auto sniper rifles, and this one keeps the GA name proud.

      • Rusty S.

        I have zero buyer’s remorse with my Gladius. It is the most consistently accurate rifle I own.

        • Pete M

          Rusty. I left you off the list. Apologies.

          Consider yourself called out!

          • Rusty S.

            No worries, Pete! Belatedly, welcome to the team! Callout answered, please see my review of the POF USA Renegade+.

          • Pete M

            Thanks Rusty!

        • AaronE

          The Gladius is another outstanding GA selection!

  • iksnilol

    Eh, I kinda did this each week.

    Sauer 200 STR + some German ammo that comes in a gold box (.22 LR) = Sub-MOA

    Then again, I shot 30+5 rounds.

    • Sarig

      Since you do DFS, and I haven’t done proper competitions in about a decade, just informal local stuff: How big is the centre of the standard target at 200 metres? Is it 1 MOA?

      • iksnilol

        The 10 at 200 meters is pretty easy, it is like 108mm. Note that is the ten, not the inner-ten.

        The 100 meter target is 60 cm wide, the 10 itself is 6 cm wide whilst the inner-ten is 3 cm wide.

  • Bob

    OK, I think I will attempt this challenge. Clarification please: When it says no vices, braces, etc, does that mean one cannot use a loop sling around the arm? And where it says shooters can use a small wedge to support the stock is that supposed to be used as a rest in front or simply to support the butt end at the shoulder? I’m inclined to want to shoot without rest and with a loop sling since I have had some Appleseed training, but the rules are a little unclear to me at this point.

    • Pete M

      Hey Bob,

      A bipod, sand bag, rest or whatever for the forearm as long as isn’t locked in place.

      The buttstock can be semi supported with a small squeeze bag that the shooter has to control to shoot.

  • Martin Grønsdal

    (.5192/.5235) = .992 MOA why this calculation?

    • Schnee

      Martin I think you caught a math mistake. He switched the numerator and the denominator. Should be .5235/.5192 = 1.008 MOA. So it’s not sub-MOA.

      In any case these triple digit decimal places give the impression of precise measurement. Standard deviation of those group sizes is .104 inches, so I’d say 1.008 is statistically indistinguishable from .999 at very reasonable confidence levels. So it’s sub-MOA with an ass-hat asterisk.

      • Martin Grønsdal

        But why one divided by the other in the first place?

        • Martin Grønsdal

          What math am I missing?

          • Schnee

            See above edit

      • Pete M

        Thanks for clearing that up. I was worried I messed up the math.

        • Schnee

          Awesome article! I think if everyone worked on this, we’d all be much better and smarter shooters.

  • Schnee

    My first outing with my SCAR 17 and sellier and belloit cheap brass case ammo from cabelas, I shot this three shot group at 100 yards. It’s the paper targets that break clean holes which is why it looks like I punched the holes. There is nowhere to go but down from this group. I’m depressed now. But I get a little happiness from the amount of sadness I’ve given my Larue and M1a fanboy friends with this group.

    • sundancer32

      so in response to an article proposing five 5-shot groups to judge accuracy because a single 3-shot group is useless, you post a picture and a story of a single 3-shot group? i don’t get what you’re trying to say…

      • Schnee

        I should have been more explicit that I recognize that my former source of pride actually might suck, and I need to be honest even if it means getting larger groups. So I’ll be punching 20 holes soon with the SCAR to see how good it really is.

    • DwnRange

      Odd that my 6.8mm rounds on the same brand of target looks strangely and completely different………

      Infact they actually look like bullet holes.

      • Schnee

        That’s an amazing group. Re my target: I know I shot those holes and I have no way to prove to you that I did. The paper I used is advertised to tear clean breaks for the holes. I didn’t post to brag. I posted to show a lucky group that i need to replicate now with 4×5 shot groups. (The pattern on the paper on my target looks slightly different–a line bisects the diamonds on my target).

        • DwnRange

          Redfield style Champion – I was using the outer lower left.

          • Schnee

            I am away from my target for another week. When I am back, I’ll look at the brand. The guy at the range told me these were made to have crisp bullet tears and it surprised me how good it was. If I were lying I’d pull down my post and slink away. My guess is that if you get your micrometer out and do some algebra on my photo, you’ll find that I have somehow gotten my hands on a .308 caliber hole punch. Again, I wasn’t putting that photo up to brag. Quite the opposite. I was putting it up to show that a single three-hole group can look misleadingly good. Cheers.

          • Schnee

            Got home and looked at my target. Not the same as yours, no brand, only marked with windage and elevation. Don’t know what to tell you–the paper tears clean.

    • SCAR-17 with S&B? Hole punch target? That would be a great troll for ARFCOM.

      • All the Raindrops

        Would be some douchenozzle behavior

    • All the Raindrops

      1 3-round group doesn’t mean anything, that is the point here

      Also, those don’t look like bullet holes.

      Lol.

      • Schnee

        Yes that is the point I was making about sample size. A lucky 3-hole group is nothing to brag about.

        And yes those are suspiciously crisp holes. When I’m back in the same room with my target I’ll snap a photo of the brand of target. Maybe I’ll even video me shooting the target. If I were faking this I’d either take this post down and cry myself to sleep or i’d poke holes with a pencil.

      • Talos

        Those, my friends, are hole-punch holes. Perfectly round, clean edges, no depression of the edges.

        You have a 1/2 “MOA hole punch. Mine is a 0” MOA hole punch. All day.

  • Iggy

    I doubt you could find one, let alone enough for a whole day’s shooting and you’d get in an awful lot of trouble…

    • Rusty S.

      Pure LFB genius

  • politicsbyothermeans

    I can do minute of bad guy for a few hours. It’s not just good, it’s good enough.

    • jay

      I could tell. Your avatar has that 1000 yd death stare down pat. ;-}

  • Independent George

    Shows what you know. I can’t shoot 1 moa in the first place!

  • SimonSays

    This is a great initiative and I like the idea of shooting all rounds on the same targets (great for evaluating consistency). I am awaiting the delivery of a 700 Police in .308, and cannot wait to try this a few times to see how I get accustomed to the rifle and the barrel wears in.

    • Pete M

      Awesome. Glad to hear it.

      I just bought some ultra match 22lr. Can’t wait to run this challenge a few times.

  • Adam

    Dont hang out at Bench rest shoots much?

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      Bench Rest does not equal the MOA All Day challenge.

  • Geoffry K

    That picture at the top of the article is wrong. You measure center to center for group size, NOT edge to edge.
    “Shooters can use a squeeze bag or small wedge to support the stock.”
    No no no no no no. Cheating. That is full support. Only elbows and shoulder. If you are going to allow a stock rest, may as use a rifle rest.
    Use the free version of OnTarget and scan your target into the program and it will do the calculations for you, way more accurate than calipers.
    www ontargetshooting com/
    100 yards is normally 3 shot groups.
    If I had more Match ammo I would take you up on this, but I need to load up another few hundred rounds, running low.
    Can’t afford a range finder right now. My 100 yard target was measured with a 100′ steel tape. +- 6 inches to 1 foot.

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      Geoffry, did you actually read the article?

      Edge to edge is a much more precise measurement than center to center. THEN you subtract the diameter of a bullet. There’s no guessing where the center is.

      A squeeze bag is not full support.

      Three shot groups are not a reliable sample size. Five each target is more representative.

      This is the challenge, people. Do you all show up to a match and say “no, this is not the way I do it, I’ll shoot and score how I want to.”

      Lastly, it’s supposed to be pure fun. There’s no cash prize or anything.

      • Please, god help us!

        If only people could read and comprehend with the same precision they claim to shoot then there would be less keyboard maintenance.

      • Geoffry K

        Yes, I read it. Is a bipod allowed? Or do I have to pile sandbags?
        Doesn’t make any difference. If I can stabilize the rifle to where it doesn’t move I can do even better.
        Yes, I am an excellent shot.
        These were shot using only the bipod on a bench with my shoulder and elbows for support.

        Well, if you insist. 5 shots. I’m ordering up 500 Sierra MatchKing 77gr. HPBT with cannelure and will load them up.
        I know it’s just for fun. We do the same thing every month over on taurusarmed dot net. Monthly rifle and handgun competition. Bragging rights is the prize for the month.
        If you are propping up the stock in any manner, to me that is full support. Bean bag, squeeze bag, monopod or whatever.
        If I can support the stock I can get an even tighter group.

        Try the OnTarget. Calipers are NG for measuring groups. Paper shreds, rips or otherwise does not give a precise edge to measure from. Human error is involved.
        Did you even LOOK at the OnTarget scan of my target?
        It can precisely find the center of the bullet hole because it presents a circle around the bullet hole. You can magnify the target to get more precise.

        I’ll get back to y’all after I get my Match Ammo loaded.
        The second target I shot yesterday.
        Both of these are not match grade ammo.
        Hornady 55gr. FMJ-BT w/cannelure.

        • Pete M. – TFB Writer

          Bipod is fine. And you don’t have to use a squeeze bag, but others can.

          FWIW, I’ve seen OnTarget make mistakes. It’s no more accurate than calipers. It draws a circle around what it thinks the hole is.

      • A Curmudgeon

        Umm…I thought the US military and the NRA in the days of the .30-06 determined that .308 diameter projectiles punch a hole in paper somewhat smaller than .308?

        Get out those handy-dandy calipers again and tell us whether your targets’ holes are .308 or .224 or .264 or whatever, or smaller, please. I am away from any range for several more months and cannot test this myself.

        But that is why I measure near edge to far edge whenever possible. Any diameter discrepancies get canceled out. If the groups get too tight to do that, I just move the distance out to the next increment.

        And please know that one of the ways the Uber-precise 50-meter smallbore people do it is with a scoring overlay, clear, with a precise .223 (or whatever .22 LR is supposed to be) ring that is centered over the boolit hole to see whether the scoring ring was touched. I have *heard* that benchresters do something similar using calipers and two circles on clear plastic. Center both over the hole and you are good to at least .01 inch rather reliably.

        • Pete M. – TFB Writer

          Good info, thanks.

  • Pete M. – TFB Writer

    Thanks for this. It may be too much statistical analysis for Saturday morning. I’ll have to revisit it after more coffee.

    • 6ShotsOr5?

      No an engineer. I probably cannot explain it better than they did, but I’ll try to explain it without going through all the math. Just look at their table. You need a correction factor for the number of shots. If you are familiar with the concept of standard deviation or a normal distribution like a bell curve, you know that when you take a lot more shots, you will have more outliers to a statistician — flyers to a shooter. If you dont believe that, go shoot some 25 shot groups, and compare your group size to the average of 5 of your five shot groups. Your 25 shot groups will be a lot bigger. You can use their table to estimate howmuch bigger. You need a correction factor based on the number of shots to accurately determine your group size in MOA units. By coincidence, the correction factor for four shots is 0.98 which is very close to 1.0 which means you can ignore the correction factor when you shoot four shots. If you shoot five shot groups, the actual MOA will get a little better when you correct for shot number, but why not just shoot four to save on the math and the ammo?

  • John Mood

    Wouldn’t you want to calculate using the radius of the bullet’s caliber, so as to be calculating the point of impact of the center of the bullet, rather than the diameter? Educate me on this if I’m wrong, please.

    Plus, one shooter made a good point, a cold bore target is not going to work well. Warm it up, then go for the MOA challenge.

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      You are on the right track. You are taking 2 radius measurements off. One from the right hole and one from the left hole. That will give you a CTC measurement.

      Thanks

    • DwnRange

      duuhhh, 2 x the radius = the diameter, when I went to school……. (Mr. Pete below has probably lost all his hair and bit his lip) : )

      • John Mood

        DwnRange

        I asked a reasonable question, and the writer answered it civilly, that’s quite enough for me. You don’t like my comments, please just ignore them.

        I reload, I shoot a well tuned, well maintained rifle, and I hunt deer, some varmints, coyotes, and I drop them or I don’t take the shot. I hate wasting hand loaded ammunition. Been shooting since I was 10 years old, and I’d say that 50 years is a bit more than your experience.

        Please don’t be that troll guy, OK? BTW, I’m surprised you went to school…

        • DwnRange

          perhaps by the time you reach my age you’ll be better able to take a joke…….

          • John Mood

            You don’t like my comments, please just ignore them. Please don’t be that troll guy, OK? And I don’t really care how old you may be, your writing sounds mid 20’s, and your so called ‘humor’ doesn’t cut it.

          • DwnRange

            and you should change your handle to “Bad” Mood – ‘cus when I use a smiley face I mean it’s a joke and no offense was intended……..

          • John Mood

            DwnRange. I’ll agree to a cessation of hostilities with you if you get off my f***ing back.

          • Pete M. – TFB Writer

            Alright. Both of you. Double MOA challenge. No posting until you are done.

          • John Mood

            I don’t know, I’m better when it’s breathing. I’ll wait until deer season or the next time I go coyote hunting and post. For now I’ll call a halt to any exchanges, per your request. Targets don’t really trip my trigger so much. Yeah good practice. But I’ll check in when I have some game to post.

            If I happen to find a range, I’ll give it my best, but rifle ranges in SC are scarcer than hen’s teeth, unless you can afford a club, and I don’t have that much cash to waste..

            Proof’s in the pudding as they say.

          • John Mood

            And my nickname when I was a working cop was Bad-Ass Mood. Top Trigger on two different police departments.

  • Chris Floyd

    Ok, gun geek in me just had a full up happy spaz dance. Just getting in to long range shooting, have a Ruger Precision in .308 with lovely vortex 6-24 glass.. going to run this as a on going drill for all my LR support guns.. LMT MWS 18″ w/ vortex 4-16, Frankengun in 5.56 18″ 1-6x and my bastard PTR-91 w/10x Bushnell

    Seems to me that asside from errornet bragging rights, this is an excellent drill for 25rnds.

    Hell the RPR is very capable of doing these groups if I can get my head out long enough to do my part. Strongly suspect the MWS can do this all day long..the 556 and PTR91 …Those will be the real challenges

    This is gonna be fun!

    Side note, anyone know of an andriod app similar to the OnTarget pc app noted below. Dont want to drag a laptop to the field

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      It’s so simple. it’s the perfect self-test.

      • Chris Floyd

        The equivalent of cqb dot torture for long range wannabes like me 🙂

  • McThag

    Anyone and everyone shoots MOA every time they shoot. As long as you prefix it with a large enough number…

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      Har har.

      I’m not renaming it the “1 MOA or Less All Day Challenge Extravaganza.

  • IndyToddrick

    One time, using a Rem700 30-06 on a bench with a bipod and a cheap blurry 24x Simmons scope (which came loose the next time I went to the range and fell apart lol), I put three shots touching in a nice triangle shape AT 150 YARDS! I haven’t shot long range much since, but I wish I could find out if that barrel is capable of more like that.

  • Ron

    Yes I can. Shooting a GA PRECISION Crusader 308_Leopold Mark4_6.5 x 20 reloaded lapua brass Sierra 168 grain match bullets sub 1inch out to 300 yards all day long no problem

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      Sounds like you are ready for the challenge. 😉

      And 1″ @ 300yds = ~0.29 MOA. THAT is some shooting.

  • Pete M. – TFB Writer

    Ok, so as a follow up…

    Are you a statistician? Because I don’t understand why four shots needs a different variable than five? I need some hand holding…

  • Mike Lashewitz

    Following because I want to see what happens next!

  • Mikial

    Yes.

  • Geoffry K

    The picture at the top of the article. Give me the distance to target and caliber and the distance between rings and I’ll give you the exact group size and distance from POA.

  • Geoffry K

    Well, I imported your Glow Shot target with the inked in measurement into OnTarget. Since it is a 10″ X16″, I entered the 10″ dimension as the width for reference. Looks like .22 caliber at 100 yards. At least OnTarget was happy with that. It being a splash target which enlarges the impact, it was a bit tricky fing the center of each hole, but I got it as close as possible. Your caliper measurements are off.

    Sorry. Text got chopped uploading it.

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      “it was a bit tricky fing the center of each hole, but I got it as close as possible.”

      How is that more accurate than calipers?

      Shoot the challenge if you’d like. Like I said, there are no cash or prizes involved.

      • Geoffry K

        Because the “splash” is not consistent size. Paper target makes a nice clean hole, especially 24 pound..

        Is this setup OK with you?
        Homemade beanbag, dried dark red kidney beans, if I recall.
        And my 100 yard range into the pine forest, marked at 100′, 200′ and 300′.
        Measured this morning +- 1″ per 100′, so 3″ error at 100 yards. Close enough?

  • Core

    I tested Windham Weaponry’s new 7.62×39 AR prototype today at their new indoor range. It has a keymod fore-end with a nice gray coating from fore-end to buttstock. Very nice, light, had Magpul BUIS, shot four rapid ten shot groups standing at 25 yards. My first 7.62×39 AR experience, very impressed. I didn’t like the way the BUIS were setup and didn’t want to mess with them but I liked the groups all things considered. Very mild recoil, lightweight, great trigger. I can’t shoot MOA standing at 25 yards, but I can prone. Not sure if I can shoot 5 five shot groups with irons but I’m game. Sounds like a good challenge.

  • Core

    I’m waiting for MOA @ 1000, I know there’s someone out there with maybe a Tac50 or AI?

  • DwnRange

    First off “PSI” and “CUP” are not the same, as well noted in the comment section of the link YOU posted – none of which is discussed in the article I posted above and is a strawman’s ploy which does not matter here.

    Secondly, the purpose of my post was to hopefully educate you and others on the reasoning behind the 7.62 vs .308 cartridge issues. No matter what the CUP of civilian vs military rounds the issue really has always been with the longer 7.62mm Mil-Spec chambers in older military firearms, as the experts point out above.

    Thirdly, this is why I suggested you check out the excellent work done by Lucky Gunner Labs, which although a different caliber, explains things with regard to “pressure” issues and why and how .223 vs 5.56 and 7.62 vs .308 paranoia got started, as they are somewhat related.

    You expressed fear that one should “never” intermingle 7.62 rounds with .308 (the YIKES in your original post intimated that) and that is really just propagating a fallacy which, for the most part, does not exist. As long as your old military firearm headspaces properly you can use SAAMI spec ,308 in it, according to folks that know more than most of us.

    • John

      Well I can’t be held responsible for repeating bad information I got from the Internet! Last night I read that UP was DOWN and BLACK was WHITE and I spent all night sleeping in the basement with the lights on!

  • Geoffry K

    Here is a 1 MOA @ 100 yard target that will print on legal (8.5X14) paper and can be scanned into OnTarget for measurement. I guess you don’t like .pdf files (upload rejected). The reference distance is the 2 fine lines between the “10” and from the inner edge of the line is 2.097″.
    Slightly over 2 MOA by .003″, printer error. Accurate enough.
    I have 500 77gr. Sierra MatchKing on order with Graf & Sons and will shoot this challenge after they arrive and are loaded. Most likely before the 25th.

  • John

    Here is my humble opinion….

    Why do we shoot guns?
    To hit our target and/or have some fun.

    If we are really concerned with hitting our target precisely we must ask, are we a sniper, a hunter, a competitor or in a combat situation?

    For combat, I agree, you need at least a 10 shot group to show what a well heated gun will do in a firefight.

    If you are a competitor you have a lot more time and options and the only thing you have to lose is the competition or bragging rights.

    If you are a sniper or a hunter than a ONE shot group is all you should need.

    WHY?

    Because, you will be shooting a cold barrel ONE time to make the critical shot, if you miss you are probably screwed.

    SO, you should practice hitting a quarter at 100 yards with your first shot. Come back the next day after the gun has completely cooled and hit the SAME quarter AGAIN with the first shot. Do THIS for ten days and you are set. If you shoot a 3 shot or a 5 shot group, after the first shot, the rifle condition is no longer the exact same way it will be when you take it out of its case when you need that perfect shot.

    If, however, you have a rifle that never changes POI due to heat or carbon build up and you have ammunition that is exactly the same for each round without any fluctuation of any component and you put it in a vice it should be able to stay in a 1 inch circle at 100 yards for thousands of rounds…. theoretically but then, who has that kind of money and time.

    Let me know if I am way off base here.

    • Pete M. – TFB Writer

      You are on track.

      Any good sniper/counter sniper will check their cold bore shot every time they are Confirming their zero.

      They will record the cold bore POA/POI along with their confirm zero groups in their dope book.

  • John

    Where are all the pictures of the challenge? So far, I can only see mine. I thought dozens of people were going to do this. Is there another site where they are posted???