BREAKING: US Army’s Modular Handgun System Moves Forward, to Downselect to 3 Competitors

m9pistol-army

The US Army’s Modular Handgun System is slated to move forward, downselecting in August of this year from a reported 12 submitted proposals to only three, in preparation for the final competition. The program solicitation was released in September with a deadline of the 1st of February, but the deadline for submissions was extended to February 12th. Now, it seems the Army is in review of the proposals and is poised to choose the final three entrants, one of which will become the next US military standard issue pistol. IHS Jane’s reports:

The US Department of Defense (DoD) will downselect a total of three preferred bidders in the third quarter of 2016 as its Modular Handgun System (MHS) programme continues on course despite recent calls to replace the effort with a commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) solution.

Entrants are understood to include Beretta’s APX, Ceská zbrojovka’s CZ P-09, FN Polymer striker fired pistol (as yet unknown model), General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GDOTS) and Smith & Wesson’s M&P polymer handgun; the Glock 17 and 22; and Sig Sauer’s P320. However, sources informed IHS Jane’s that the DoD had yet to make a final decision regarding calibre of the MHS, although 9×19 mm and .40 calibre appear to be favourites at the moment.

The DoD has now begun an evaluation programme of the 12 weapon systems. A downselection to three is expected to be made in August, leading the way into a nine-month production verification test (PVT) programme. Following the successful conclusion of the PVT, a preferred bidder will be selected ahead of low-rate initial production and first deliveries to US armed forces.

Earlier this year, US Army Chief of Staff Mark Milley questioned the need for the program, suggesting instead that the Army procure Glock 19 handguns off the back of a SOCOM contract for those handguns. We discussed this suggestion, and explored a few other possibilities for procuring new handguns in previous posts.

Strong bets are on SIG, S&W/GDLS, and Glock, with dark horses from M9 maker Beretta and CZ-USA. The odd man out is FN, who’s entry is as yet unknown. As for calibers, reportedly the .45 ACP is the least favored option, but no word yet on the 9mm versus its competitors .40 S&W.

Phil Note: I was contacted by FN a short while ago and the information on the FN Five-Seven as an FN entrant in the competition is incorrect. FN is not at liberty to discuss their pistol at the current time. FN will contact me with the pistol information and photos as soon as they are allowed to release the information. My apologies for the misinformation.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Mystick

    A 9mm 1911 would just be…. humorous…

    • milesfortis

      Don’t laugh too hard. That was actually submitted by Colt when the 1911s were going to be replaced. Colt’s proposal was to provide 9mm conversion kits with all the necessary parts.

      • Kivaari

        Colt Commander from the 50’s. It was OK, except the ejector was fragile in 9mm. The slide stop activated on the .45s when you didn’t want it to. It could have been fixed, had Colt put the detent on the contact surface of the slide stop. Look at M1911A1s, issue ones, they have the little detent cup. Commercial guns often don’t. Why, is the makers don’t care.

        • milesfortis

          Yep, they tried back then too, and failed.
          Paterfamilas has a newer 1911 9mm, (started complaining about the .45 ‘hurting to shoot’. I should be so lucky when I’m 91).
          So far, no hiccups.

    • Big Daddy

      How about a polymer version?

      • Bullphrog855

        I would love a 1911 poly lower double stack 9mm. Maybe even striker fire but I wouldn’t care one way or the other.

        Just a 1911 brought up to 2016 standards.

        • Swarf

          Is that a joke?

          • Bullphrog855

            Purist are going to kill the 1911

          • Zachary marrs

            It’s already dead

          • Swarf

            You want a polymer-framed, striker-fired double stack 9mm that is still a 1911. What’s left?

            You want a Ruger SR9 with a straight pull trigger.

            … Well hell, now that I think of it, so do I. But not for the same reasons.

    • Don Ward

      1911 in .38 Super Plaise! It’s NOT too late!

      • Qba

        Its to late

        • Don Ward

          *Sad face*

  • Sasquatch

    Really FN…. 5.7? Why not the fns or fnx?

    • Big Daddy

      I’m thinking those guns might show up to be so bad in trials it will hurt sales in the long run.

      • Sasquatch

        I would have to disagree I would put my fns 9 right up next to the oh beloved Glock in at torture test any day.

    • therealgreenplease

      I’m guessing FN has submitted it as a marketing stunt. They’ll market the reliability data from the Army’s testing while marketing their own data for why 5.7 is “superior” to 9mm or whatever.

      • Sasquatch

        Has to be marketing. I can see the concept for the 5.7 as a sub machine and get why. But even thought you can penetrate body armor you have to pop off half the mag in your hand dragon (dat blast) just to kill someone.

      • LimaYankee

        I think they would make still more sales on the FNX/FNS if it was entered. Or maybe FN has another side that actually entered as FNH-USA that entered the FNX/FNS series?

        Having an actual military contract drives sales for those.

    • Qba

      Because it is 5.7 FN round

      • Sasquatch

        And?

        • Qba

          On own cartridge they will earn more money.

          It would be foolish if they competed with gun chambered in .40SW

          • Sasquatch

            Then why is Sig not pushing 357Sig?
            Because it’s foolish to push a proprietary round. Even thought
            I would prefer 357Sig over 5.7fn.

  • Major Tom

    Well there would be an advantage in moving to the 5.7mm handgun. It means you can consolidate pistols and PDW’s to the same standard of ammo as the P90.

    • John

      That way we can have a terrible caliber in TWO platforms

    • SP mclaughlin

      US Army doesn’t have any P90s…

      • But Stargate Command does.

        • hikerguy

          Yes. And the P90 and HK G36 have killed and wounded more hostile alien lifeforms than all other weapons on Earth combined. 😉

          • Which is amazing when you consider the fact that almost none of them raise the weapon up high enough to use the sights.

          • hikerguy

            True that. Maybe those Marines and Air Force guys SG Command has are all natural shooters with eyes like eagles…

          • They’re going to start issuing Carter Specials… you’ll see.

      • 68Whiskey

        They’re actually floating around in small quantities out there surprisingly. Not anything sizeable but I’ve seen an MP unit using them overseas.

        • Kivaari

          That little 4.6 HK MP7 is out there as well. In the hands of Navy SEALs.

          • milesfortis

            and a few other SMUs as well.

          • CommonSense23

            And it gets no respect.

        • CommonSense23

          What MP unit did you see using one?

        • Kivaari

          Isn’t it the diplomatic security?

      • Qba

        But can buy P90 if chose Five-seveN

    • CommonSense23

      Why would you use a PDW when you got access to MK18s.

      • milesfortis

        Hear, hear.
        I like my MK18 clone.

        • Kivaari

          I have a Colt M4 11.5″. It is handy, it does give up a little punching power. BUT, it IS handy. The M4A1 14.5″ is just fine. If you need a PDW it is to replace a handgun. You wouldn’t need a pistol and PDW.
          Now, I can justify having an M4 and a Glock 19. The G19 with 3 magazines should be enough, since it would not be asked to do the job of a rifle. Just like those complaining about how poor of a rifle the M1 carbine was. It was a replacement for the M1911. I still carried both for some years. Many of use grew up in the 50s where WW2 and Korean War guns were the guns t have. I had them before I went into the Navy (’67). My ship had WW2 small arms.

      • Kivaari

        Or a M4A1?

      • Major Tom

        Low risks of overpenetration/collateral, higher capacity magazines (at least for MP7/P90) that don’t weigh much. Excellent performance from suppressed weaponry and more.

        • CommonSense23

          Crappy rounds, crappy rounds suppressed, and the MP7 is surprisingly big, and the P90 while nice and compact doesn’t give you anywhere the flexibility a 10inch does.

        • Sasquatch

          The only gain you get from 5.7 is defeating body amor. That’s it. The 9mm hits harder and really harder in hollow point fashion. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

      • 40mmCattleDog

        I don’t understand the fascination with fielding more PDWs and PDW calibers when a suppressed MK18 with M855a1 or mk318 can do everything better than them and is already in the supply chain.

  • xebat

    Why in gods name didn’t they consider the FNX 45 Tactical ?
    It is just perfect for it’s purpose.

    – High capacity
    – Has ambi safety, decocking
    – Changeable grips
    – Option to mount RMR
    – Is perfect for silenced use( caliber, higher irons sights)

    • Wagon_Waifu

      probably a cost thing. you ever see the MSRP on one of those?

      • Robert Harper

        Yes, when I picked mine up for under MSRP! 🙂

      • Kivaari

        Civilian pricing has little to do with the cost to produce. It is set by market research presenting a product that people are willing pay $xx for.

    • Kivaari

      It is a club. No one under 6’6″ with gorilla hands can actually use it like a combat pistol needs to be used. You need a gun that fits the majority of users. Anything in .45 for uses other than suppressed is the wrong choice. A big issue about the M9 is it is too big for most users. Hand them a Glock 17 or 19 and it serves the purpose of a general issue handgun. Glock offers high capacity, no one needs bilateral-ambi controls, offers RMR, offers threaded barrels wit high sights, and doesn’t need changeable grips. A Gen 3 Glock will fit more hands, and no number of changeable back straps on the HK makes the pistol grip smaller.

      • Bullphrog855

        Generally Glocks not fitting well in the hand is the main complaint leveled at Glocks ironically enough

        • Kivaari

          I hear that from M1911 users. Once you are issued ONE handgun it becomes part of you. Oddly the Gen4 Glock seem to not get sold in Europe since there is no need for the adapters elsewhere. I use Gen3. I tried Gen 4s, but took all adapters off. Another odd thing I see is in the 1920s, the army surveyed the soldiers about what they did not like about the M1911. What resulted was the A1, having a SHORT trigger, scallops around the trigger window, ARCHED mainspring housing, bigger sights, bigger safety, longer grip tang. What I see on new M1911 types are long triggers and flat housings. I don’t understand why a flat housing and long trigger help at all. So both the 11 and A1 feel awkward to me, whereas the Glock 17 fits.
          Deciding how it feels at a gun counter for the first time is not the way to pick a gun. Unless it really fits OK.

          • Cannoneer No. 4

            I miss arched mainspring housings.

          • Richard

            The Springfield armory mil spec has one and you can get aftermarket arched mainspring housings from certain parts makers like smith and Alexander, if they are still around.

          • Kivaari

            Brownell’s sell some nice ones. Remember the plastic Colt parts. If anyone wonders why Colt keeps having issues needs to remember the laughter turning to groans, around the gun counter as new Government Models were first seen.

        • Sasquatch

          This is true. I want to like glocks but that grip though.

          • Bullphrog855

            I agree, it just isn’t something you hear about often with M&Ps and Sigs, which is why I don’t think Glock is going to win, unless it comes down to it’s last bastion. Weight.

            Or it’s cult of personality which shouldn’t be dismissed. But honestly if it was going to come down to that, the gun would of have been picked by now.

          • Kivaari

            Early SIGs felt better, but many of us used our thumb, and it rested on the slide stop. The gun would run dry and not lock back. SIG changed the grip, “bulging out” the area below the slide stop. That worked to eliminate that issue, but for me it became awkward. Even on Glock 34s with the extended slide stop and magazine release, I replace those parts with standard M17 parts. I seriously, thin you have to stop playing with other guns until you get whatever is really used is engraved on your brain. I still find myself forgetting safeties if I am shooting M1911 or BHPs. I bring them up like a Glock and they don’t go bang.

          • Bullphrog855

            I do that with my thumb as well, first time I shot the M9 I was hit the slide release accidentally every time on the last round. Took me a min to catch on.

            I honestly don’t know what to do with my thumb on guns like that lol

          • Kivaari

            I owned lots of SIGs and loved the old ones. Even the European P220s and the first P225. I just learned it wasn’t good for me to have a bunch of guns that all operated differently. With Glocks, I push the trigger and it goes bang. With S&W K-frame revolvers I press the trigger and it goes bang. I rarely use single action.

          • All the Raindrops

            Glocks are just the best general purpose guns

          • Steve Milliron

            Maybe, if they didn’t have finger grooves.

            But, honestly, there’s not a whole lot of real, significant differences between today’s polymer framed, striker fired pistols. All of them are accurate, rugged and reliable. If you’re a newbie, buy one that fits your hand well (which for me means no finger grooves), and learn to shoot it.

          • Sasquatch

            I would like to see the S&W M&P win. Seems to be the most American thing up there and stupid reliability accompanied by a nice grip. I think it would make a fine choose in 9mm or 40.

          • Bullphrog855

            I would too just because they’re the under dog. People want Sig and Glock to win; I want to see an upset.

          • Or cost. Glock is the simplest locked break handgun to produce (it has the least machining operations due to slide shape and extensive use of plastic and stamped parts.)

            If Glock really wanted the contract they could underbid everyone, especially when you consider the contract including magazines. Glock mags are cheaper to produce then Mecgar’s. That double combination of low cost gun + low cost mag + works means they could absolutely win on price if it’s down to Glock vs. Anyone else at the finish line.

          • Glock has an inside track because it has a *huge* history of reliability and durability (provided you arent talking about earlier G23s or Gen 4 G19s – although I think they fixed the Gen4 G19 issue)

            If modularity is a key factor (particularly if they consider the logistics of keeping full size service pistols and more compact versions as needed), the Sig has an advantage – although I can easily see PVT Skippy damaging the trigger group more easily with it versus the Glock or Smith.

            The Smith is new (like the Sig), and less modular than the Sig, but ha a huge bowwave of users in US police purchases, and is more modular and ergonomic than the Glock. Plus,has the advantage that morons who don’t realize that Smyrna, GA and Newington, NH are both located inside the US won’t protest.

      • Matt

        I carry an fnx45 tactical with an rmr and surefire x300 ultra and I’m only 5’11” it fits my hands perfectly. When I hold any type of glock I seem to point it at the dirt.

        • Kivaari

          The persons hand shape is critical. It also has a lot to do with how much and how long you have packed a particular pistol. Most first time handlers of the Glock complains about them pointing skyward. Serious M1911 users in particular. Those 1911s using a flat MS housing typically, need to be forced upward to come onto target. If it’s the only pistol you use you muscles and brain adapt. I can shoot Glock 9mms and S&W K-frame revolvers the same. Today hand me a M1911, M9, or the PX4 and nothing points right. I’ve been using the G17 primarily for almost 30 years. Everything else feels horrible. Like Luger P.08s, they are the most awkward pistol that people love, because they have been told for 100 years that the Luger is perfect. I would not own one, except to resell for a profit. Lugers are good trade stock to get a better pistol.

      • john huscio

        Beg to differ on the vp9 sidepanel/backstrap combos not making the grip smaller.

        • Kivaari

          We were talking about the FNX45. I like the feel of the VP9, it is after all a 9mm and is properly sized. I can’t get a proper grip on any .45 quality built pistol. I had Gen 4 Glocks, in G17 and G22, and I left all the back straps off. It felt better. I prefer the Gen 3s, and only in 9mm.

          • All the Raindrops

            The gen4 with no back straps is smaller than the gen3 (stock)

            One of thr reasons I prefer g4

          • Kivaari

            It may be in a very small manner. I liked the feel. I don’t need to add anything. I disliked the more complex spring system. I had one of the recalled models, and I simply didn’t like them. I understand that in Europe they don’t bother with the back strap feature. The first gen Glock (only M17s) were too large. Because of that i never bought one. When the G19 came out, I loved the size. BUT, the gun was unreliable (as were G17s) and needed the recall parts. I used Gen 2 and Gen 3 for decades. I loved them. I tried all of them after retiring, and settled on Gen 3 M17 and M19. Many of the guns now coming with changeable back straps add way too much material for me. It’s like having a short stock on a long gun. Tall shooters can use the short stock well, while short users can’t use long stocks well. Therefor, make them short or adjustable like the M4.

          • FarmerB

            My Gen 4 M17 has adjustable backstraps and I bought it in Europe.

          • Kivaari

            All Gen 4 have that feature. I’m sure you can buy any configuration Glock you want wherever Glocks can be sold. It’s good for some. I liked the Gen 4 without any add-ons. I really disliked the recoil spring, especially, when it was recalled. Since the Gen 3 gave me what I wanted, I stay with G3s now. G1 -17s were too large and slippery. Thus the G2. I can live with a G2 or 3.

          • FarmerB

            Sorry, I was just replying to “I understand that in Europe they don’t bother with the back strap feature”.

    • therealgreenplease

      Weight. I’m *hoping* that weight is a major consideration in this procurement process. Go with a Glock or similar polymer pistol in 9mm to reduce the soldier’s load a bit. Every pound counts.

      • kamen_volk

        The problem with the military is that if they take weight off your gear in one area, they figure out how to add it in another. Either with more ammo, plates, or other junk, but they always find a way.

        • Kivaari

          But, you still get a pistol and more other stuff. You could leave the pistol behind and still carry more stuff. If you get stuck with 80 pound load, do you carry a pistol that allows you to carry more 5.56mm. No matter, you get 80 pounds. I like having the pistol.

          • kamen_volk

            That wasn’t my point. Handgun is there regardless whether it’s the metal M9 or Poly Glock, but since they cut the weight of the pistol they add it somewhere else. I was just saying that the “weight” savings of the pistol are pointless because in the end your still carrying 90+ lbs.

          • Kivaari

            That is what I am saying. The M9 is big and heavy so you get less of the other stuff. I like the Glock 19, so you can carry more of the other stuff. Like spare radio batteries for calling in airstrikes.

    • Ergo

      Shepard

    • n0truscotsman

      Because Glock and the M&P are better in every way. (*runs and hides*)

    • Rusty Shackleford

      Probably because it has a large grip. There are a ton of small men and women in the military with tiny hands.

      • Qba

        Because FNX 45 Tactical does not meet the requirements, like 17 rounds magazine and modularity.

    • All the Raindrops

      It’s huge and expensive

      Soldiers want light and small secondary weapons. Suits want cheap. You’re missing the whole point.

      • Jwedel1231

        Good point. The FNX 45 Tactical is made for people who plan on using that gun a lot., hence the price and features. If 99% of the people are never going to use it in anger, then you’ve wasted a ton of money that can be wasted elsewhere in more fantastic fashion (F-35, anyone?).

        Wait, did I just disprove myself?

    • 11b

      Because .45 isn’t a good option compared to 9. 9mm gets the job done, is cheaper, and most importantly, lighter. The FN 9 is a good choice tho

      • 11b

        Also the optic mount and suppressor capability are a moot point. Those who want that on a pistol can already buy nearly anything their unit needs (Read: SOCOM). Big Army doesn’t care if you want an optic on your pistol- they care if it’s cheap, light, and gets the job done for the most soldiers.

        • Well, wait a second… I think you’re discounting an optic too quickly. Teaching pistol marksmanship is far harder than teaching rifle marksmanship. If the optic-equipped pistols suddenly start showing huge accuracy increases that’s going to weigh in on things. Like you, I doubt they’ll be adopted, but I wouldn’t rule it out out of hand.

          • Kivaari

            More to fail. Technology isn’t always worth having. Good iron sights on a handgun for serious use are just fine.

    • ProLiberty82

      Or at least send in the FNX 9 or FNS 9, but the Five Seven WTF!? Moder plate armour defeats it anyways and the US military don’t have P90’sin their inventory so it makes no sense.

      I have the FNX 45 Tactical BTW, after a testing all of the modern high cap .45’s I found it to be the overall best choice, 1000 rounds and not one hick up.

      • xebat

        Exactly. It is the best .45 and the best out of the box option for supressed and RMR use and RMR is the future of handguns.

        • Qba

          Its worst, because it does not meet the requirements.

      • James Young

        They probably did submit the FNS 9. Why do you think they didn’t?

        The story says 12 guns were submitted but only 7 listed of them. The FNS 9 is most likely FN’s other gun.

        Six companies…each was allowed two gun submissions:

        Beretta – 2 calibers
        CZ – 2 calibers
        FN – 2 guns
        S&W – 2 calibers
        GLOCK – 2 calibers
        Sig – 2 calibers

        FN is likely the only one who submitted two very different models.

      • Qba

        The program is looking to replace the entire handgun system, which includes the gun and ammo, therefore Smith & Wesson compete wich M&P chambered in .40SW, SIG Sauer with P320 in .357 SIG, and FN with Five-seveN in own 5.7 FN caliber.

    • cwolf

      Because FN didn’t submit it.

      • Qba

        FNX 45 Tactical does not meet the requirements, like 17 rounds magazine and modularity.

    • James Young

      I thought they were looking for a striker fire gun, no external hammer.

      Don’t think FNX45 (as cool as it is) is something that would be considered for people with small hands.

      FN FiveseveN is also huge but they know it probably wont win. They likely submitted the FNS9 as their second gun, not the FNX.

    • Qba

      FNX 45 Tactical does not meet the requirements, like 17-round magazine and modularity.

    • Kivaari

      Isn’t it mentioned that the .45 is essentially out of the running. MOST don’t want a .45.

    • They may. I posted a correction to the article. The Five-Seven is not under consideration. This came from FN approx one hour ago.

  • m-cameron

    Can we just finally decide on the g17 and be done with it…….

    • Kivaari

      Or 19. It’s big enough for a service weapon and a concealed pistol. Smaller like the SIG M11 our Navy fliers like.

      • therealgreenplease

        I say go with the 19 and keep the weight and bulk down as much as possible. It’s a secondary weapon.

        • Kivaari

          It is perhaps the best compromise in size, weight and power. It would be a go to first pistol should I really need one. OK, I carry a M642.

      • I actively dislike Glocks, and have to admit that it’s hard to go wrong with major purchase, choosing the G19.

        Of course, the Sig is even more adaptable, with only the trigger group being serialized, and swapping configurations could be a be a user level task (although, it would almost certainly be treated as a company armorer level task by Big Army.)

    • victory0311

      Nope Sig p320!!

  • Very bold move by FN to submit the Five-Seven over the FNS/FNX series.

    While I’m a huge fan of the pistol and the caliber, I think it’s a submission meant more to show the reliability and accuracy of the platform for the wider consumer/international market, rather than winning the competition.

    I base that on the fact that from a reading of the MHS solicitation, and simply the name ‘modular handgun system’ – the Five-Seven is not modular at all. It’s strictly a fullsize pistol with a grip circumference identical to the Beretta M9.

    • Kivaari

      The 5.7 has a trigger reach much longer, and harder to reach than an M9.

      • Interesting, I don’t have an M9 handy to compare but I’d believe it. Elite makes a flat trigger that reduces reach by 1/4″ which would be helpful if FN were to copy, but ultimately it’s not a pistol well suited to the ostensible goal of the ‘Modular Handgun System,’ whose primary purpose was to created a handgun that could be individually tailored to smaller hands.

        I wear a medium sized glove, and it fits me fine, and it would likely be fine for most, but for someone with shorter fingers or women with small hands it’s not ideal, which is why I don’t think it would win the MHS. Hence my hypothesis that this entry is just to prove the reliability and ease of use of the system.

        Now were the competition set up for different requirements, the Five Seven could absolutely win – it’s very reliable, accurate, easy to shoot, and outperforms both 9mm and .45 FMJ, due to it’s 0.85″ tumbling projectile. Given the very thin and compact nature of foreign combatants, it’s 9-10″ of penetration is actually ideal, and set up with a red dot or a laser, it’s probably the easiest combat handgun for someone with minimal training to shoot well.

        But in the MHS, which both stresses modularity, and has the option of JHP ammo as opposed to FMJ, something incredible would have to happen for it to win.

        Sadly FN is really behind the curve with developing the 5.7×28 cartridge; the situation is similar to 9mm in the 1970’s, where there were no good factory loads offered, and only small loaders like “Super Vel” were trying to bring the cartridge up to it’s potential. Right now Elite ammo is that company for the 5.7×28, and they have produced some truly impressive loads for the cartridge, especially considering that it’s a one man shop with only a fraction of the resources someone like FN or ATK could throw at the problem.

        Really what it needs is a projectile the length of the SS190/SS195/198 (0.85″) but weighing in at 40gr’s as opposed to 27-31. Loaded to 2000fps it would meet FBI specifications and energy levels, while retaining the superb low recoil, high velocity characteristics of the 5.7×28.

        If you’re reading this FN, do it.

        • ostiariusalpha

          Perhaps even using some kind of EPR projectile, like the M855A1 and M80A1 rounds do. Would “enhance” the terminal effectiveness a good deal, I think.

          • Slvrwrx

            That would indeed be interesting, but the projectile weight would need to be capped at 40-45gr. Otherwise you start loosing what the cartridge needs to work and that’s speed 😀

          • Yeah, what works out of rifles rarely works out of pistols. Totally different ends of the spectrum, with totally different terminal characteristics.

        • Kivaari

          It is SA, and the safety is even more awkward to use. This is especially so when you need speed. Lots of guns work for slow fire shooting. The FN 5.7 isn’t one of them. Like the Glock 21 in .45. I can shoot them very well, slow fire. I can’t hit the target with the second round because the pistol has twisted about 45 degrees.

          • I find the safety pretty easy to use, but it can also be carried with the safety off, as the pull weight and break is pretty much identical to the Glock, just crisper, and heavier than the PPQ.

            I’m surprised that it’s twisting in your hand, what type of grip are you using? The round has like 30-50% less recoil than the 9mm, and slide cycle time is extremely fast. Even it’s harshest detractors (of which there are many) concede it to be very easy to shoot.

          • Kivaari

            On the Glock 21, no added grip. It is already too large. I cannot draw it fast without the muzzle pointing hard right. Since the back strap doesn’t contact the palm properly. Take one shot and the gun just twists farther to the right. One round at a time, then repositioning the pistol for the next. I can do that with a 5.7 as well. But why bother? I can dump magazine after magazine through a Glock 17 and not have an issue. It was enough to convince my chief to re-arm the rest of the guys. No one really minded, once they could hit the targets.

          • Are you left handed, firing with one hand? I would point left when firing the G21 one handed as a righty, prior to having a grip reduction done on the 21.

          • Kivaari

            I m left handed BUT, I have always carried my service guns right handed. I started with revolvers. In the 60-70s there were no left hand revolvers, semi-auto pistols or M1 rifles. When we qualified we had to shoot “strong side” “weak side” one-hand and two-handed. I qualified with equal scores regardless of which hand(s) I used. That was with all the handguns and long guns. The only handgun I carried and still carry left handed is a S&W Centennial. It rides where it has for over 20 years, in my left front pocket. I tried switching, but with so many years engraved on my brain, it wasn’t a good idea.

    • Guys Janes messed up FN contacted me a short while ago and the Five-Seven was never submitted.

      • Thanks for the update Phil. That makes sense, although it’s a total bummer as Five Seven fanboy, I would have loved to see how it faired in the trials.

  • Gregory

    Go with the Glock, it is simple, reliable and accurate. I have over 6,000 rounds through my model 22 duty weapon with zero malfunctions. I have shot ball, frangible and Gold Dots through the pistol.

    • Kivaari

      I’ve written many times about my issued Glock 17. I used to record training shots. After I reached 22,000 I stopped do so. I am confident I shot well over 30,000 rounds through it, with no problems. I don’t remember any stoppages or misfires.

  • I didn’t expect to see the five Seven on the list.

    • Richard

      Neither did I.

    • Kivaari

      Why would it be on that list. It is mostly a toy.

    • GoKart Mozart

      No joke. I figured the FNS/FNX would’ve been a slam dunk since they have most of the MHS-required features out of the box, and combine that with FN’s track record of knowing how to play the Army acquisition game. I just don’t get it…

      • Joe Goins

        “FN’s track record of knowing how to play the Army acquisition game…”

        They don’t have an original design in use with the US military other than the M240, M249, and M2. (Exception: the FN SCAR is in use by USSOCOM in limited capacity.) They manufacture current designs, but they don’t design new products.

        • And the M2 isn’t an “original design” to FN. They’re using the old TDP developed here.

          Unless you count their minor quick change barrel modification – which, while really great, is less of a modification to the M2 than the mods the US insisted on before adopting the Minimi as the M249.

          • Joe Goins

            I included it because it is a Browning design and I associate the two.

  • Darkpr0

    I want to see the FN Five-seveN win just so I can laugh until I die. I will literally start laughing upon the announcement of their win, and when the doctors pull the plug on me in many years I will chuckle my way into the light. I’m curious to see what all the proposals were given that it says there are 12 proposals, but only 7 actual guns listed. I assume the rest are different calibre versions, but It’d be neat to see the dispersion.

    Edit: Not because I think the 5.7 is a bad gun, but because I think it would be an uncharacteristically forward-looking for the US army to move away from rounds over a century old.

    • The 40S&W is only about 25 years old.

      • Travis

        True, but it is basically the same concept from the turn of the century big heavy and relatively slow moving.

        • Kivaari

          Look up the 9.8mm Colt.

        • Then all cartridges are over a century old, light & fast, heavy & slow, and heavy & fast have all been tried.

          In reality 40S&W is basically downloaded 10mm after people realized that 10mm was a handful. Another cartridge that is only 33 years old.

          • Travis

            Yes and no, just ask Nathaniel F. + what Kivaari said.

            The fact remains that fast, light and small diameter is not conventional, yes, it has been tried, but it is not conventional like the 9, 40 and 45

          • He didn’t say conventional. He said and I quote “…US army to move away from rounds over a century old.”

            I was pointing out that one of the likely contenders, 40S&W, is only about 25 years old.

            But regardless it is bad to compare modern 9mm to 9mm as it was invented. The pressures available have gone up significantly compared to 9mm of old.

          • Kivaari

            That’s why the .357 SIG was created. It gave 9mm +P+ pressures and velocities, without the fear that the +P+ ammo would get stuffed into grandpas P.08.

          • Kivaari

            The .40 has issues. Everyone loves the Browning High Power pistols. When Browning introduced the .40 version, during the Clinton AWB era, it had a 10 round magazine on the wonderful 9mm frame. We said, “If we are stuck with 10 round magazines, this would be perfect”. Except within 1000 rounds the guns were beaten to death. I would think Browning could have used better quality steel and heat treating to solve that, but the damage was done. If you don’t shoot your pistol and can live with SA, “IT’S perfect”. Really it is too bad, as they are nice pistols.

          • Rodford Smith

            Hold on… my first .40 was an HP-35. I don’t have a solid round count but it’s definitely over 1000 and except for the sights it’s still all original, with no signs of excessive wear.

          • Kivaari

            The 5.7 simply can’t fit into a handgun that has good handling. A month or so back someone mentioned a 9×25 using a sabot and a tiny penetrator. It would be a better choice than the FN 5.7 simply because it fits into a 9mm sized frame. WE, private citizens could not own that ammo. I don’t expect the army to pick anything but a 9mm. Not that it is the best, it is the most practical.

          • Kivaari

            Nathaniel has been smarter than me, he took the night off.

          • Kivaari

            AND, the 10mm-.40 is a slim .38-40 from 1873.

          • kyle893

            357 sig is much more capable than it is given credit for. It’s commonly said it *almost* reaches 357 magnum levels but this isn’t true, it does and exceeds many loads if the barrel length is matched up and someone like Underwood makes it. The xtreme defender is supposed to get 1700 fps in the 32 with a 90 grain bullet. People have gotten 1600 fps with the 115 grain bullet and another guy chronographed the 125 grain gold dot underwood ammo and got 1585 fps and one 1604 fps making 700 ft lbs of energy from the glock 32. I would love to see the 357 sig hold a saboted round and see what it can do there. The only negative is it is less ammo capacity, but not by much. That 90 grain xtreme defender though would be a god military round. Not a hollow point, good barrier penetration, deep tissue penetration, and powerful but recoil is offset by the light grain. The 357 sig isn’t even at +p pressures if I’m not mistaken, as ammo manufacturers would have to label it as such, although I know there is some caveats to that. The PPU Siberian stuff also gets over 650 ft lbs of energy and it’s not listed as + p either, which makes me think what could be achieved if there was an over pressure sig round.

          • Kivaari

            The reason the .357 SIG exists, is to allow a non +P or +P+ 9mm performance to be stuffed into a 9mm size frame. There is no +P .357 Magnum load either, since it is running at its normal pressure. The issue was police wanted a 9mm +P+ where that ammunition could not find its way into older and less capable pistols. Look at the data for the Federal 9 BPLE 115 gr +P+, it is within ~10 FPS of the .357 SIG. That Federal ammo stuffed into a P.08 Luger would spell disaster.
            We shot tens of thousands of the 9 BP and/or equivalent loads through Glocks and MP5s. Those guns can handle it. At about 35,000 rounds each the locking plate (old style) in the MP5s broke.
            The Glocks just kept on going.
            Some people complained about the .357 SIG, I don’t know I never used one. But I can say for sure that a .357 SIG having 10 FPS more than the load we used can’t be bad. That is nothing compared to a .357 Magnum in a K-frame revolver. The revolvers were vicious..

          • kyle893

            I saw on a couple websites and a YouTube video that the 9 bple 115 grain is going about 1300 fps which is great for 9mm. I have heard of this round before from a Massad Ayoob article I think. 357 sig 115 grain on underwoods sight goes 1550 fps which is 250 fps faster. This is what I mean, people sleep in the sig because of the downgraded stuff on the market haha. Grain for grain it matches self defense 357 magnum loadings. I know manufacturers like hornady loaded it down, and depending on the hollow point design it’s not necessary to have excessive speed. The Speer gold dot seems to like it though. I shot the XTP in clear ballistics gel and it went 12 inches deep. I did accidentally buy the NATO 10% spec so I’m sure that messed with it somewhat, but they say that’s not enough penetration. How it translates into actual real world stuff is different, however the gold dot went 15 or 16 inches on tnoutdoors9 if I remember correctly.

      • Rusty Shackleford

        Just as law enforcement is heading away from 40, the military is considering adopting it…

        • FightFireJay

          Because LEOs get to use expanding projectiles and DoD uses FMJs.

          Although there was talk about the Army adopting expanding ammo for handguns, but I don’t that’s actually happened and may not.

          • iksnilol

            still, a mm difference isn’t going to be a real difference.

          • Kivaari

            So true. 9mm – 10mm – 11.25mm are not much different using hardball. Recently a North Idaho pastor was shot 8 times with a .45-230FMJ. Two bounced off his skull. That from near contact distances.

          • Rodney Jenkins

            pastor at what church?

          • Kivaari

            A Christian church in east Coeur d’Alene Idaho about 2 months ago. Eight hits from a .45. Bullets were dropping out of the pastors cloths or just lying on the ground around him. He lived, but has a long recovery. The two head shots were a real WOW moment. The shooter has been captured. A few years earlier a drunken off-duty Spokane cop shot a drunken Shanto Pete in the head with a .40 S&W from a G27. It rang his bell, but he lived with a head ache. The cop was charged, exonerated. He ruined his career. Even though he was supported (he should not have been) other officers were ticked off that he had lied to them as he walked past investigators. After the trial he was told to move on. Pete sued and from memory he lost in court. He was an unsympathetic plaintiff. Head shots don’t mean a sure stop.

          • iksnilol

            In his case I’d actually say a 9mm would have been more likely to kill him.

          • Kivaari

            The higher speed would likely have resulted in death. Big FMJ bullets going slow will deflect off of green bone much sooner than a high speed bullet. Like the Spokane cop using a 40 from a stubby G27. Not enough velocity and green bone, saved Pete.

    • That was an error started by Janes. FN contacted me a short while ago and the Five-Seven was not submitted.

  • Wagon_Waifu

    CZ P-09 has OEM magazine capacity going for it. 19+1 in a field where the average capacity (without having to resort to extended magazines) is 15-17+1.

    And if the ways the Kriss-imported Sphinx SDP Compact and CZ P-07 shoot are any indication of how the P-09 shoots, the P-09 would probably be one of the more recoil-friendly guns. In spite of the polymer frame, the CZ design grips wonderfully and has a low bore axis, and having shot CZ75-design pistols as someone who was previously more of a 1911 fanboy, I much prefer the handling on a CZ75 derivative versus a Glock.

    • Jack Burton

      As much as I’d love to see it happen, I have trouble imagining a CZ ever actually being the standard sidearm of U.S. military. My second pick from the above options would be the M&P, which actually seems to be a shoo-in for a number of reasons.

      • Pod

        CZ (obviously) hails from a former Eastern Bloc country. The howls of protest throughout the government would be deafening, regardless of their submission’s performance.

        I’m thinking GLOCK or M&P personally.

        • Twilight sparkle

          While Austria wasn’t part of the ussr it’s not that western

          I’d like to see FN win mostly because it has the highest standard capacity of all of them but also because the military gets the rest of their guns from them already

          • Kivaari

            Considering even western Russia is European culture, I’d say German speaking Austrians are more western than Russians. Is Italy a western nation? Much of it is more east than Austria.

          • Twilight sparkle

            Actually that was a poor attempt for me to argue that the Czech Republic isn’t all that eastern, in fact I’d say it’s probably about on par with Austria if not more westernized. Sure the Czechs were part of the ussr but they hated every minute of it. When I was there last year it was obvious how distant they tried to make themselves from eastern influence, their news was available in English. I couldn’t find a non English speaking person in Prague thought I didn’t really look all that hard.

            I don’t think eastern influence would really be an issue if the military preferred the p-09

          • Kivaari

            That was my point. I’ve always viewed the Czechs as just like us. You know what I mean. That other guy was hostile.

          • FarmerB

            I think Vienna is the exception to much of the rest of Austria, but today, it’s much more “eastern” than the Czech Republic. In fact, my first experiences of this part of the world (1988-9), the similarity between Vienna and Prague was striking, even though Prague was firmly in the Soviet block at the time, but as you say, the Czechs have been firmly leaning westward since.

          • Kivaari

            It’s a strange world. We have a nephew that moved to Estonia a few years ago, to become a Muslim convert. We have family in Chad where all the kids became professionals in the US military.

          • john huscio

            Austria has been an integral part of “western” culture for a long time……..the Hapsburgs ruled a good portion of western europe, Vienna 1683, hotbed of classical music through the 18/19th centuries, Gaston’s pistols in a huge percentage of holsters around the world….

        • Kivaari

          Czech out the Czech Legions of WW1 and WW2. Czech’s are pro-western. Allies against Islamists and their old bosses in Russia.

          • Tritro29

            Fights people it has supported and enabled in the past=Islamist Bosses in Russia. US Logic.
            Fights people it has had a beef for centuries in Central Asia and Caucasus= Islamist Boss. Russian Destiny.

            Where the heck do you find these stereotypes guys. But it’s ok you guys are funny.

          • Kivaari

            Are you telling me I am wrong? I see them as being our kind of people, even while they were under the bears boot.

          • Tritro29

            I’m saying you’re out of your mind. Czechs have as much in common with Gerland than with Russians. You accusing us as being the hand behind Islamism, while you are the ones sponsoring the biggest terrorist enabler (aka Saudi Arabia) and you were the guys who started the movement behind recent radical Islamism Feankly speaking, go fu** yourself. Also Czechs being American people? Haahaa. Now you’re not funny anymore.

          • Mc Cain

            Well that escalated quickly.

          • Kivaari

            @ Mc Cain, He sure went off the rails fast. He committed to attacking a friendly comment, and turned it into an attack of former Warsaw Pact members, that we knew for decades didn’t like being controlled by Soviets. I mean who would want that type of government boot on your neck? Tritro29 seems to like it.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            I guess he missed history class the day they talked about how in 1968 the Czechs rose up against the Soviets and the Soviets had to use sheer brute military force to suppress the uprising.

          • Kivaari

            Hungary ’56. The joy felt around the world when the Soviet Union imploded. Like I said, he has to b an old displaced commie. If there is anyone left on the planet that thinks communism is equal to or better than freedom, well they have issues.

          • Bubba

            Hey Scrounge, perhaps you should be a bit more concerned about AMERICAN history say….19 April 1775.

            Buy AMERICAN with tax dollars. If you and your fellow NWO shooters want foreign products for yourselves fine (heavy tariff needed). But, it is time you heroes start thinking about making America Great Again !

          • Lt_Scrounge

            WTF are you talking about? I can almost guarantee that I have been to larger TEA party rallies than you, most of the time I was carrying a Kahr K9 or a scandium framed S&W 1911. If the US manufacturers would produce something that I actually liked at a price that I could afford, I would prefer to buy American. Most of the weapons in my gun case ARE American made. I’m not going to spend $400+ for a pistol that comes with only 1 magazine and then spend another $40 per proprietary magazine like Springfield Armory, S&W or Ruger demands. Colts, Kimbers, etc cost more than my SUV. When the choice is a foreign made firearm or no firearm at all, I’ll take the foreign made one.

            BTW, I happen to have a BA in Poli Sci with a minor in history, so I am VERY aware of April 19, 1775. That’s when the government (British) made the mistake of marching on Lexington and Concord to confiscate the privately purchased guns and ammo (including a cannon) that was stored there. It is a mistake I expect this government to repeat in the not too distant future. While Obamao is claiming that the Democrats don’t want to take anyone’s guns with one breath, the very next one he is advocating for the denial of Constitutionally protected rights without due process based solely on someone’s online search history. A search history which the major search engines can fabricate out of whole cloth at will. He also refuses to acknowledge that the Second Amendment was simply a restatement/extension of the right to keep and bear arms that was guaranteed under the 1689 Declaration of Rights passed in Parliament in response to the previous king’s (James) attempts to disarm the protestant citizenry in order to allow his Catholic supporters to be able to attack them more safely.

          • Evan

            Springfield XDs are Croatian made, but other than that, that was infinitely more intelligent than 90% of the comments I see here.

          • Kivaari

            The SA M1911s are Brazilian.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            Thank you. I do try to interject a little intelligence on occasion, though some people may disagree with some of my assertions. On those occasions I simply have to think that opinions are like bad smells, every a–hole has one. Myself included. I’m a Libra so I try to see both sides of an argument, but there are just some times that I simply can not get my head far enough into rectal defillade to achieve the required perspective.

            I REALLY should not write comments after watching the movie “Deadpool”, especially after enjoying a nice bottle of moscato. While some may consider that TMI, I thought that a suitable disclaimer was in order. WEG

          • Kivaari

            Excellent!

          • Lt_Scrounge

            Thank you. I hold your opinion in high regard. No sarcasm intended. I regard you as a highly intelligent and educated poster even if we have, on occasion, had a difference of opinion.

          • Kivaari

            I wont ever BS you. I may not always be correct, but it will be genuine ignorance on my part. Most of my thinking has come after over 50 years of guns use, mostly professional. It can wear one out when we have to debunk the common knowledge that remains floating about. There are so many myths out there. Too may people ask a gun-ammunition combination to do things they just can’t. I revert to the “buying for agencies” thinking, since I witnessed so many poor choices. Most often it was putting very large handguns and the .45 into service where not 10% of the users could use them well. When people complain, the same guys that picked it, take it to the range and show them that it’s a good choice, Not being able to step into the shoes of others creates issues.

          • Anon

            You know that’s not an argument, right?

          • Kivaari

            No free trade? No more American built Beretta M9s? No SIGs from NH, or S&W with South African slides? Brownings from Georgia or SC? FNs from American plants. What do you have against American built guns based upon European designs? You probably don’t like Tennessee built Toyota trucks, but would buy Mexican made Fords or Canadian Chevrolets or California Subarus and KIAs. I can understand not buying a NY made Volvo, they suck.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            I guess the fact that Nissan builds their Titan trucks and Armada SUVs here and even builds the drive trains here makes them less American made than the Ram pickups being built in Mexico by the $8 a DAY Mexicans. Toyota Tundras and Nissan Titans are more American made than any of the Ram (formerly Dodge) trucks which are primarily made in Mexico. Tundras are built in Texas. Don’t forget the Tennessee and Ohio built Hondas. Those South Carolina built BMWs are rather nice as well.

          • You o realize that whoever wins, they *will* be building the guns *here*, in an American factory, employing American workers, under an American subsidiary company, just like Beretta, FN, right?

            We don’t let major DoD weapons contracts that can be cut off midway through the conttact by polotics, go to overseas sole sources. So complaining about “foreign products” in these cases is merely nativist protectionism aimed at protecting nothing. Heck, by *your*, standards of “Buy American”, you should boycott Chyrsler and Jeep. Or Ford a few years ago. Or Smith & Wesson a few years before that.

          • MichaelZWilliamson

            And the Trumptard completely misses that FN has several US contracts already, FN, for the ignoranuses, standing for “Fabrique National” of Belgium.

            Just because something is made somewhere, doesn’t confer any sort of quality or credibility.

            Also, even foreign contractors must be prepared to make the product in the US, per contract.

          • Zebra Dun

            The old Ford or Chevy, Blonde or Brunette argument and then someone comes up with a Yugo and a redhead.

          • AirborneSoldier

            I think you miss his point. Probably because you are Chech.

          • Tritro29

            Nope, worse I’m Russian. He has no point nor a leg to stand on. It’s all ideological bullshit for the masses. These kind of crappy propaganda stunts, the US has been tirelessly pushing all around Eastern Europe, while conveniently forgetting that you can’t fight geography. Just check the relationship Germany has built with nations that can’t decide whose worse, “Russia” or “Germany”. This kind of manufactured neo-nationalism, the US has been good at for quite sometime already. Ignoring that what goes around comes around. The worst part? We’re getting at it in Russia too. A real recipe for disaster.

            The guys spit at us while we kept them on with cheaper than diet gas (We would sell at 50 USD BCM while the market was at 100 USd). This ungratefulness is normal from irrelevant countries like the Baltics, whose whole universe turns around “Ze Rashans Are Koming”, but seeing how the US is pushing its ideological product around is simply put…disgusting. In the mean time the US devotes a third or our current GDP to its armed forces…but somehow we’re the “war mongers”. What ever, Suum Quique.

          • Kivaari

            How did the Soviets treat eastern and central Europe following WW2? How’d the Soviets treat the Whites during the Civil War? Right we didn’t support Soviets enslaving people. We don’t like seeing them still pushing west. Get over it. Abode by international treaties and stat signing business contracts for what you want. Don’t invade so you can control pipelines. I hope to never buy another drop of Russian oil, ever. I hope to never buy another drop of OPEC oil again. I want to sell Canadian oil to Europe because of the over reach of the Russians. America pushing it ideology is a good thing. Too bad Russians have had no real exposure to freedom. I am so glad my grandfather fled Russia. He built a better life for his family in Canada.

          • Tritro29

            Certainly better than the way you treated some of your “conquests”. Whites? What Whites? You maybe forgot something, but Whites, Reds and Greens were terms quasi impossible to tell apart. A huge chunk of “White Officers” sided with the Reds. Red Reds turned out to become Green. Nationalists (Ukraine is a funny case) first were super Bolos, then turned out Anti-semitic trash with a slight nostalgia about French Revolution massacres. Abiding by International laws? Te hee. Yeah like which ones? Ivanding countries to “democratize” them? Are we even trying now? How’s that Libya Liberation Committee going along? How’s being best buddies with Al-Qaeda light feels like? Although that’s not even a first, you did that in Afghanistan. Controlling pipelines? Given we feed those pipelines, there’s litterally nothing to invade about. Don’t overthrow governments, don’t try to play games in our backyard or we’ll do as we’ve always done. We’ll defend our side. Real exposure to freedom? Haha. Yes dude, sure. Keep drinking the cool aid.

          • john huscio

            Well it’s true Russians have been conditioned to servitude pretty much since late antiquity which was the last time the Slavs living in what is now Russia largely lived in small villages and hunted/gathered/traded on their own terms.

          • Tritro29

            Let us say that you have even less points than your buddy. Servitude in the High Middle Age was the main economic system until well in the XVth century. And this was more or less sustained in a form or another in most of Europe until the XVIIIth century. I don’t see you mocking Hungarians or Romanians the same way you treat “Russians”. But hey what ever man. It’s irrelevant anyway. It’s not me being mortgaged to death, having debt up the ceiling and basically being run by a printing machine.

          • john huscio

            Most of Europe started evolving away from feudalism in the 1600s or somewhat earlier. In Russia it wasn’t until the 1860s that feudalism was formally abolished (though defacto serfdom continued even it could be argued almost to the present day) For over a thousand years the majority of Russians were serfs who had no real individual rights the Duke/Khan/Czar/Politburo were bound to recognize or respect. It’s only been in the past 20 years or so that individual freedom has come (back) into Russian collective consciousness.

          • ComradeHX

            Puerto Rico is still dying with hospitals shutting off power to save money, btw.

            As for Russia pushing west, now it’s more like the West pushing toward Russia… Remember 2008? Georgia was depending on U.S. backings, too bad U.S. pussied out.

          • chuckabunch

            Mine too.

          • JimboK66

            So does that make you Russian?

          • Tritro29

            Yes, I’m Russian.

          • JimboK66

            OK, thanks. I was just curious.

          • Kivaari

            When did I say Russia is behind Islam. Islam has been a pain for Russia for centuries. Chechnya, is a good example. Beslan School a real mess. The plane and train bombings. The market bombings, the apartment bombings, the Opera takeover, all of those were Islamic pukes. When Soviets invaded Afghanistan, we actually had more in common with Russians than the Afghanis. BUT, we were at war with communism. Our enemy became our instrument to punish Soviets. Just like Russia and China and Sweden supported NVN. National interests. Most of us detest Marxism. There was nothing good under Stalin. Look how we supported Soviets during the war. Without our food, and war materials you couldn’t have done as well on the eastern front. We know that, and that is why we supported what we knew was going to be a continuing threat to the freedom of people. Communism-Stalinism-Maoism-Castro-Che-Kim are terrible systems. Remember WE even supported Ho Chi Minh during WW2. We actually had great issues with France over Indo-China. It led us a misadventure. Our goal was good. Your goal in Afghanistan was bad.
            Your support of PRNK in the 40-50s left half the people of the region in a state of poverty, starvation, enslavement and a continuing threat. What good came out of that? Well, South Korea.
            We have a free Japan. China is defendant of free trade. Vietnam is an ally. Why hasn’t Russia acted nicer? Free trade is better. Trade at the muzzle of a rifle isn’t quite as good.

          • Zebra Dun

            It got real, fast!

          • FarmerB

            I think you completely misunderstood his sentiment and over-reacted.

          • Tritro29

            I think I perfectly understand who that person is and what deranged reality he lives on. His subsequent posts are testament to that. Russ River being probably the dumbest piece of made up argument one could find.

          • AirborneSoldier

            True.

          • speedofix LA

            Czechs, Poles and Romanians had to endure the Russian boot on their neck because a Democrat weakling President was conned by Stalin. They were sold out to the second biggest mass murder in history and Hitler’s former ally through no fault of their own. If someone is to blame for the almost 50 years of communism these people had to suffer through, it’s not Russia who everybody already knew is a madhouse led by men possessed by Satan since 1918, but the American president and Britain’s Prime Minister who put their signature next to Stalin’s on the shameful Yalta Treaty.

            That being said: if it’s a contest won strictly on merit, CZ sold win hands down. 19+1 capacity, best ergonomics, superb reliability, lowest bore axis with mildest perceived recoil.
            And to boot, it’s no longer just CZ. It’s CZ-USA. It was privatized since the 90’s and it’s an American owned and run company.

          • AirborneSoldier

            The Checks were always giving the soviets a hard time.

        • MPWS

          Enough for “fairness”. Czechs willingness to join NATO was ok. Interesting logic.
          As I am not necessarily fan of their pistol, they should have the chance they deserve.

          • Kivaari

            I have only used the CZ 75, even real ones, They are too big for me. If they don’t fit me, they don’t fit most. The Tanfoglio copies WERE soft and I saw too many of them hammer themselves to junk status. I think there is a mentality in some laces that guns are to be carried but not used.

          • Bradley

            I have a p09 and everyone who has shot or held it liked the way it feels. Honestly it is one of the best all around grips for everything from tiny to huge hands in my opinion. The 75 grips are a little beefy, but so are most double stack steel frames.

          • Kivaari

            I don’t have any objections to the new CZ pistols for those that want one. Like the PX4, I only have it because of the magazine swapping I can do. Without that CX, I’d not have a PX. What are now popular and common SA/DA pistols, hold features that I no longer prefer. It is my personal prejudices. Some of them are DAO, and I would prefer those over the DA/SA. It hasn’t always been that way, since we didn’t have good DAO pistols 40 years ago. I carried many S&W M39-59 series pistols. At the time they were about all to be had. Now I prefer Glocks.

          • iksnilol

            Kinda weird, since it fit me perfectly with my small hands.

          • Kivaari

            Is it fitting well while the hammer is cocked? On SA most of the big guns feel fine. My complaint is the DA trigger reach is too long. I cannot draw and have the gun oriented properly toward the target as I reach for the trigger. Once it is cocked it’s great. I think many people, because they are recreational shooters, don’t consider the value of the first round trigger position. I judge pistols in that position before I even think about the SA reach and quality.

          • iksnilol

            I mean, DA is crappy in general. That’s why the few times I carry I carry cocked and locked. I reach it just fine though.

            Only reason I like DA is for the rare occurecence where you get a hard primer or something.

          • Kivaari

            That doesn’t work for me at all.

          • iksnilol

            Probably the reason we have so many choices.

          • Kivaari

            Those issues have helped improve handgun architecture a great deal. If people had accepted the HK P9s or VP70, they’d still be made. Lack of sales for awkward models brings us things like the VP9. Remember the Colt Double Eagle? It was a DA M1911, yet that isn’t good enough to make it sell. Same with the Colt 2000 attempt to create a Glock. If flopped fast. Ruger has learned how to make a more appealing and usable pistol. The old P85-89-and similar pistols worked (after the P85 mess) but are ugly. The handling for almost everyone I know that owned them, just never pleased many. I had both the early P95 and the later variant with textured grips. The first ones were slimy. The later much better, yet people wanted a more Glock-like pistol. Ruger has done that with the SR series and the American. Good looking and feeling pistols.

          • FarmerB

            I have 1-2 pistols that are TERRIBLE for that. Cannot remember exactly which ones since I’m away from my safe. The reach for the DA is into the next post code. Yeah, good point, horrible.

          • Kivaari

            I primarily buy only those guns that work well for first round action. That first round, may be the only shot you get to fire. I simply cannot use any pistol or revolver having a long reach RELIABLY.

          • I find he CZ75 to fit me like a Browning GP35, only with two extra rounds. Single action trigger seemed about the same as a stock GP35 (I.e., before the GP35 mag disconnect “falls out”, as mine are wont to do. 😉)

            I disregard he CZ75 DA trigger, as I consider a DA/SA without a decocker to really be an SA only. Haven’t tried the later variants I’m told exist with a decocker.

        • I don’t think the issue is it being from an Eastern Bloc country – they’re a NATO member now – it’s that the CZ P-09 isn’t striker-fired, and I rather suspect that the MHS program secretly wants a striker-fired gun.

          • Kivaari

            If they go striker fired as used by Glock I’d go for it. The XD-APX types I don’t like at all. Both the XD and APX have pre-cocked strikers. It gives better trigger pulls than Glocks, but it keeps the spring compressed. I just don’t like that. It is too much like a Raven or the other cheap .25s and .32 out of 1910 era. Glock is better.

          • Bradley

            How is that a problem? Every hammer fired pistol, bolt action rigle, etc. has a compressed spring before firing. I have never once even heard of it being a concern.

          • Kivaari

            I never leave rifles or shotgun coked for long. When it goes into the safe it is unloaded and the tension released. Many striker fired pistols of years past have a common trait. That is the springs weaken and often fail. A defense pistol is not unloaded often. A revolver is at rest, but remains ready. A glock is at rest, but remains ready. An APX Beretta or XD Springfield is under tension all the time in order to be ready. If you don’t want it ready, you carry it empty with the striker down. This is very common in older lower quality pistols. It may be just fine in these modern designs, except I simply do not like it, so I wont buy them. I love Glocks system. I have a new Beretta PX4F and would have preferred the G model had it been available. I dislike manual safeties, feeling they have no value for ME. S&W revolvers and Glocks don’t need them, and I like that. Yes, I know the XD has a grip safety. I still don’t like them.

          • Bradley

            From what I see the striker spring on a glock is well over 3/4 compressed when ready to fire. Even a kahr, which o own, is considered dao and is still probably at least 50% cocked. This seems a lot like the magazine spring argument, and everything I know about springs leads me to believe that repeated compression and decompression is the biggest cause of wear. Everyone has their own opinion and preferences though. For serious use I want the trigger that is easiest for me to use proficiently.

          • Kivaari

            The Glock is “staged” under light tension, at least to me. It can’t drop and have enough strength to fire. unlike some have claimed. Now, I know the others have firing pin stops. Good. I don’t like the full compression system. It can be the best ever, and I simply do not like those guns. They remind me of Ravens, guns that should never be carried with a round in he chamber. YES, I know the XD is safer than a Raven. I STILL DON’T LIKE THEM.

          • Kivaari

            Other than single-action semi-auto pistols what hammer fired pistols are packed cocked and locked with springs under full tension. Yes, some DA/SA guns have that option, I don’t like it. The reason for DA/SA pistol is to be able to carry it “at rest”, but fully ready to fire. If I want a pistol carried cocked and locked, ala 1911, it wouldn’t be a CZ. Nor would it be the SA SIG Legion.

          • AirborneSoldier

            Glock is different. I still find xd type handguns to be better overall. But I know find myself carrying my Sigs more often.

          • Kivaari

            Tritro29 thinks we are hating CZ.

        • Was it S&W that went in with General dynamics in this test? I’m sure GD is good at the logistics and palm greasing.

          • Danny Gonzalez

            yes GD teamed up with S&W, I think because supplying ammo is supposed to be part of the contract and GD will be able to help a lot with that. Not sure whether or not GD actually helped S&W develop the variant of gun they submitted.

          • GD has why it needs to fulfill the contract… except a pistol design nad manufacturing plant tooled up for pistols.

            S&W basically doesn’t have anything they need to fulfill the contract *except* a pistol and production tooling.

            It’s a contractor match madr in Heaven… And frankly, a common as dirt solution in defense contracting.

        • Steve_7

          It won’t be Glock because of all the legal problems they’ve got. My personal view is that as soon as Gaston kicks the bucket, Glock will implode as they’re being sued by everyone and their mother (including former Glock lawyers!) Even the people in DoD procurement aren’t that dense.
          SIG-Sauer has also got serious legal problems because the German govt. has accused them of end user certificate fraud and stopped export licenses, so they had to ship the tooling for the SP2022 over to New Hampshire. But they’re not as screwed up as Glock so it could be the P320.
          Or yeah, it could be the M&P.

          • Sig would be doing it through their NH (US corporate identity, not involved with German end -user issues) company. Glock would be fulfilling through Glock USA (another US company distinct from he Austrian corporation) out of Smyrna, GA.

          • Steve_7

            It has the same corporate parent, like I said they’ve just moved the SP2022 tooling over from Germany to the US, you couldn’t do that if you weren’t owned by the same people. Glock USA is also owned by Glock Gmbh. And in any event, Glock USA is having its pants sued off, including by not just one but two former lawyers who worked for them! Gaston can deflect as much as he wants but sooner or later one of these suits is going to stick.

          • Doesn’t matter that they are partially owned by the “original” companies. They are still separate corporate entities altogether.

            Sig USA doesn’t have to spend 30 seconds worrying bout German laws, unless they are *directly* selling guns to Germans. Amd suits against Glock in Austria don’t touch Glock USA (in this case, the guys suing Glock USA have claims *independent* of ones against the Austrian parent), unless there is a direct nexus. That’s the biggest reason *why* incorporation (particularly subsidiaries) exists: to erect firewalls between domains (corporation:owners, parent:subsidiary, etc.)

          • Steve_7

            They’re not partially owned, they are completely 100% owned by the same people, you have to provide your corporate structure in the tender if things still work the same now. We’re not talking about limited liability here, we’re talking about DoD contract award rules which are an entirely different animal. Glock USA and Glock Gmbh are being sued together by the same people over essentially the same things. The SIG-Sauer thing is arguably an even bigger mess because their defence is that they were misled by the DoD over what they were doing with the pistols they sold them, i.e. the US violated German export law by lying on the end user certificate. They’re directly implicating the DoD in a violation of German law.

            If that doesn’t give them pause for thought over handing over another contract I don’t know what would.

          • Kivaari

            Almost every gun maker has legal issues. Mostly just financial, with a few venturing into criminal zones.

          • Steve_7

            And how many of them would be likely to get DoD contracts? Glock appears to have engaged in some seriously shady tax evasion at a minimum and SIG-Sauer is being accused of selling firearms to the DoD which were illegally resold to Colombia under FMS. Their defence is basically, the US lied to us.

          • Kivaari

            Since FN has factories in the USA, they already make guns here.
            Every company that gets the contract would built them here. In order for the US to get NATO to buy F16s, we agreed to building FN factories here. MOST of our larger systems, like fighter planes have parts sourced to other nations. It keeps them interested in a common goal.

          • Steve_7

            But FN isn’t in legal trouble, that was my point.

          • The Belgian government itself favored the Mirage F1 over the F-16 for NATO’s upcoming replacement of the F-104. It was simply knee-jerk posturing to support a European design over any American competitor. However, the Belgians’ position was hampered as more of its NATO allies began to favor adoption of the F-16. By publicly claiming the existence of a potential quid pro quo deal with the US, the Belgian government hoped to gain enough political cover to finally adopt the F-16.

            During the political wrangling, there were claims that the French were dangling an order for the CAL rifle dependent upon FN giving the nod to the Mirage F1. FN would be the European prime contractor for the engine of whichever fighter was selected, so their input on the producibility of the engines was important. While FN was already leaning towards the F-16, they pointed out that the French were pressuring them to switch, and they would appreciate it if the US looked kindly upon the MAG in return.

            You can read the State Department cables on the topic at the National Archives website. Here is the cable concerning France’s quid pro quo offer to FN:

            http://aad.archives.gov/aad/createpdf?rid=13985&dt=2476&dl=1345

            Here’s an exchange of letters between Minister Vanden Boeynants and SecDef Donald Rumsfield that again mentions the MAG58 quid pro quo after Belgium agreed to the F-16.

            http://library.rumsfeld.com/doclib/sp/4169/1975-12-18%20From%20Robert%20Ellsworth%20re%20F-16%20Production%20in%20Belgium%20.pdf

          • Kivaari

            DoD manages such contracts. Like in Afghanistan when Ruger old 5,000 P95s to Afghanistan, the sales was through the US Army Armor Command. I have not heard why SIGs are/were unlawful to sell to Columbia. Were they US built SIGs? What makes DoD sales to a friendly country illegal?

          • FWIW: The 5,000 Ruger P95 (W52H09-05-C-0058) were new when shipped to Iraq, as were the 5,000 SIG-Sauer SP2022 (W52H09-05-C-0059) shipped at the same time. It was a rush order by the US Army to equip Iraqi security forces ahead of their first post-Saddam parliamentary elections in January 2005. The December 2004 solicitation (W52H09-05-R-0067) by the Tank-Automotive & Armament Command (TACOM) requested 10,000 9x19mm pistols on a short delivery schedule, and they were willing to make multiple orders to achieve that number. As a subordinate command of the Army Materiel Command, TACOM was responsible for all Army small arms procurement.

            Many of the SP2022 that were shipped to Colombia were ordered via TACOM contract W52H09-09-D-0158. The following link goes to BBC coverage of the controversy.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28291070

          • Steve_7

            Germany only allows sales to countries that have no on-going conflicts. DoD said they were for use by the US Govt., so SIG-Sauer sold them, FMS then sold them to the Colombians violating German law and so SIG-Sauer is now unable to get any more German export licenses pending the outcome of the investigation, so they moved the tooling for the SP2022 over to New Hampshire. The question is whether SIG-Sauer knowingly did it and whether the DoD misled the Germans. I think SIG-Sauer did know but when they knew is the important question.

            Various shady things have happened, for example one of the key pieces of evidence (a laptop) went missing from evidence lock-up, after their offices in Germany were raided.

        • Kivaari

          I don’t see it, other than a few cries it wasn’t invented here moments. We use guns from all over the world. Look at the AT4, M9, M240, M249, Dutch hand grenades, CG 84mm, HKs and they serve us well.
          Czechs have a long history of firearms making, with a high level of respect. They are part of NATO and have pretty much always been allies, even when suppressed.

          • 120mm tank gun, while now made in the US, is a German design, originally. I believe the 105mm tank gun was originally a British design. IIRC, in the late 1980s or early 1990s, we adopted a British 81mm mortar. Etc., Etc.

    • All the Raindrops

      I have a p07 but I don’t think it’s the right choice, though it is the closest to the m9 in operation at lower weight

      The slide has less to grip onto, women especially have trouble racking cz’s.

      And it’s not as reliable as a glock

      • Kivaari

        The CZ75 style don’t have a lot to grab.

    • Bralgar

      I own both the CZ P09 and the P07. Excellent handguns…. I’m rooting for CZ

      • WRBuchanan

        I’ve had them all,,, and the Glock is by far the best Combat Pistol ever designed. When 80% of all the Police Agencies in the world use Glocks it kind of tells the story. Easiest gun to teach there is. Easiest gun to become proficient with there is. Reliability second to none.
        Best Combat Pistol ever designed, and I actually really like 1911’s but if I’m going to a fight it’s my Glock 21 SF .45 ACP on my belt. Others could shoot a G 17 or 22 but I like the bigger bullet. They figured out it was more effective about 115 years ago. Still is today.

        • Lt_Scrounge

          Of course the fact that 80% of the police agencies are getting the Glocks at such a rock bottom price that no one can compete has nothing to do with why agencies are carrying them. The Glock isn’t a bad gun, but the CZ is head and shoulders better when it comes to ergonomics. I’ve had 4 Glocks and 3 CZ 75s or clones. The alloy framed Tristar C-100 clone of the CZ-75 Compact went through over 600 rounds at Front Sight without a hiccup. About the only reason why I have a Glock 23 is that when the SHTF, spare parts, magazines and ammo will be reasonably easy to find. For a gun fight, I will take my Tristar or my full sized stainless CZ-75 over the Glock every time. You can’t always guarantee that a round will go bang when you pull the trigger, so the ability to pull that trigger a second time is important. Second strike capability can not be over rated.

          • CommonSense23

            Second strike ability is vastly overrated. Almost every modern form of combat pistol instruction teaches a tap rack bang when you get a click instead of wasting time on what is most likely a dud round.

          • Kivaari

            We never worried much about a misfire. It was responded to as you say, except the routine was changed to tap, rack, READY. Just in case the fight ended in the few seconds used up. We had to use “blind” dummy rounds to have the training. We could have one or more failures per magazine. We did that with rifles, SMGs and shotguns. It’s good to d if you use guns seriously.

          • CommonSense23

            They learned how to negate spin decades ago.

          • Kivaari

            Glock gets heavy competition from all sides. It is why HK, S&W, Ruger, Beretta etc have polymer framed pistols. Civilian retail pricing has little to do with agency pricing. Like the M4 carbine. Doesn’t the Army pay a little over $600 per rifle? Bulk pricing and no FET. AND they have to pass inspection.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            They may be getting competition now, but a few years ago that was not the case. I’m not a huge fan of polymer pistols because so few of them fit my hands well. Glocks don’t fit well at all. The M&Ps are better. I have my CZ, and it fits perfectly. The Tristar fits almost as well but with the alloy frame is it a lot lighter (which is why I put the CZ away at Front Sight and opted for the Tristar for the rest of the course.) I was one of the few people who could do a dry controlled pair without having to play make believe that my weapon was actually capable of firing again. I simply had a double action trigger pull on the second simulated round of the controlled pair. Since I do a fair amount of dry practicing at home with snap caps, I’ve gotten to the point that whether single or double action, my front sight stays in the rear sight no matter how many times I trip the trigger.

          • Kivaari

            That great thing competition has really given us some good guns.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            One really nice thing about the polymer receiver trend is how easily they can produce prototypes and determine if a design is worth actually putting into production or not. Instead of spending millions designing a metal frame only to find out that it won’t work right and have to spend dozens of man hours milling out a new prototype, they can program in changes and use 3D printing machines to make a new prototype in very short order. Then they can use CNC machines to produce molds to get the frames into production once all of the kinks have been worked out fairly quickly.

          • Kivaari

            Some are sill waiting for Remington 9mm pistol. I wonder if they will be like Bren 10s.

          • Kivaari

            Price doesn’t always matter. Our state patrol went from S&W revolvers to Berettas to HKs and around in circles. Some of the expensive more conventional pistols, like the M92FS just were a poor fit, literally. When a trooper had to be 6-0 or as small as 5-10 if they had a degree big guns were OK. When reality hit them and we started seeing 5-3 troopers those big guns just are a poor fit.
            U think it is one of the most common mistakes police agencies make, by letting gun guys pick the next service weapon, without serious trials by a large number of officers. Some places have one or two people making the choice, and it is often based upon their personal prejudices and their hand size.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            You and I both know that no pistol fits everyone, but we aren’t the ones handling the buying process. Often that goes to a bunch of bean counters who don’t care if some dies because of their decision as long as they can save a few bucks.

            There is a reason why there is a stainless CZ-75B in my gun safe instead of a Sig P228. The CZ simply fits my hand better. I had a choice of which to trade for some car repairs and I opted to keep the CZ that fits perfectly versus the Sig that was a bit too wide for my short thumb to reach the decocker. Now if the Sig had been one of the new Enhanced Ergonomics models (which bear a striking resemblance to the CZ in profile) I might have made a different choice, or not have bought the much more expensive CZ to begin with. I bought the Sig as a Sig certified trade in for around $450. I liked the Sig, but the CZ just fit better.

          • Kivaari

            I actually stopped buying SIGs after they put that thumb swell on the grip, to keep people from hitting the slide stop. The very convenient slide stop was too easy to depress so it came up slide down and empty. The fix was that bump, and it ruined the feel. The best one they had was the OLD P225.

    • ProLiberty82

      When on the subject of recoil, the M&P 9 has hands down the least recoil of any 9mm I’ve shot, I also own a custom Sphinx 3000 all steel with a double recoil spring and a stock M&p 9 is softer shooting than even that!

      I out of all the pistols in the MHS race I would go with the M&P 9, I would say it over all is the best choice unless it proves unreliable in the field trails.

      • De Facto

        The M&P is fairly soft shooting, and I like the gun, but it loses in the recoil mitigation department to the BHP and the CZ75.

      • Danny Gonzalez

        I’m pulling for S&W too. Even though I can shoot my friends Glock just as accurately, I don’t like the ergos and I get more trigger fatigue than when I shoot my M&P. To me it just fits better and I think the Army still has an old-school bias towards having a manual safety on the gun, which M&P has the option for.

        • For a contract this size, Glock will be happy to incorporate a thumb safety. IIRC, they’ve done it for smaller contracts.

          Whoever wins the US contest will have a *huge* advantage, both internationally in the military world, as well as the US domestic market – like it or not, ” the official service pistol if the US Army” will sell a *lot* of guns to people other than the US DoD, just by being the US Army service pistol.

      • john huscio

        Glock has the superior track record of service and reliability plus a far superior stock trigger. It and Sig have the inside track here.

        • Kivaari

          I tune my Glock pistols with only the expense of light polishing.

        • AJ

          Glocks at best have a crappy track record, the only reason they are used is because they are cheap.

          • Carlos McDanger

            What? You mean the MOST issued Police and Law Enforcement issued sidearm in the world, including the Navy Seals BY CHOICE, has a “crappy track record”…. LOL, you’re a special kind of stupid aren’t you. Nuff said.

          • Kivaari

            Some people just don’t know.

          • Kivaari

            Not even close to the truth.

    • Bubba

      What is wrong with the American Smith & Wesson M&P ?

      Reading the anti-American product remarks from almost every one of you “experts” proves to me none of you work for S&W, Colt, Ruger or any one of several other domestic manufacturers.

      How the hell did we win World War II with those crappy Made in USA products like the M1 Garand, the Colt 1911, the Browning M2 HB, the C-47/DC-3 (some of which are still flying today), the Sherman tank series, the Studebaker 2 1/2 cargo truck and the illustrious Bantam JEEP, forged in Butler, Pennsylvania ?

      Buy Ruger. Buy Smith & Wesson. But buy AMERICAN !

      • Anon

        Would you just shut up already you moronic fanboy? Just because something is “Made in America” doesn’t mean it’s the best.

        I think you should stop shilling, I heard it’s bad for your libido.

      • Kivaari

        Buy what works for you.

      • Whatever we buy *will be* American made. Regardless of who’s name is on the slide.

        Because it will be built in America, with American workers.

  • derfelcadarn

    Go back to the 1911 Colt, solid, reliable and powerful, not much more to ask for in a handgun. The only thing modular at the DoD is the corruption and tiny little brains.

    • CommonSense23

      Nothing special about the round. Expensive compared to other entrants, heavy, and low capacity.

      • n0truscotsman

        But MARSOC uses it…. 😉

        • Kivaari

          You did hear they are not all that reliable in the new Colt guns, didn’t you?

        • CommonSense23

          How they ended up with the .1911 always makes me laugh.

    • ARCNA442

      Or you could buy a modern gun that costs half as much with twice the capacity and half the weight while being significantly easier to maintain.

    • m-cameron

      yes, lets go with a low capacity and complex and expensive design in a caliber that is only slightly more effective than the current 9mm we have boat loads of…..

    • Kivaari

      It was not reliable contrary to myth. Ball .45-9mm-.40 leave wounds that can’t be told apart unless the slug is recovered.

  • Gorilla Biscuit

    I still wanna see a picture of the Gen2 M&P, Or other wise known as ‘General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GDOTS) and Smith & Wesson’s M&P polymer handgun’.

    • Andrew

      The contract solicitation requires the winner to produce both the pistol and the ammo. Since S&W doesn’t manufacture ammo they partnered with General Dynamics. If the winning pistol used some new proprietary caliber it might make sense for them to also deliver the ammo but it makes no sense if the Army chooses a common round like the 9mm or 40 pistol.

      • Kivaari

        Wasn’t that a dumb thing to do?

        • Not at all.

          • Kivaari

            That was my point. To gun makers adding the complexity of producing ammunition should have been left to ammunition makers. Joint ventures of this scale ca be difficult to manage.

          • *Because* they left the caliber selection open, they kind of had to require the gun supplier to handle ammo procurement (at least for the initial performance period), to ensure that the ammo vendors are providing ammo compatibility with the chosen pistol.

            As long as the gun designer locks down ammo specs early for whatever gun they are going to, it isn’t a difficult coordination. But it neatly sidesteps the problem o a separate award for ammo to a different vendor, who might change the specs in some way that adversely affects the specific gun chosen. Think of the ammo spec changes that plagued the early M16.

    • All the Raindrops

      GD has bigwigs with skills at getting contracts

    • 11b

      GDOTSSWMP. Rolls right off the tongue.

  • Bob

    The Five Seven? I thought the round was barely more dangerous than .22 Mag out of a pistol length barrel, with the only claim to fame being able to possibly penetrate light body armor…

    • Slvrwrx

      LOL. The comparison usually involves the FSN pistol produces velocities that a .22 mag RIFLE hopes to achieve. The issue that seems to surround the FSN, is either people think it’s a death ray, or somehow weaker than a .32ACP. There’s just not enough actual published data of shootings with it, to really determine it’s effectiveness. We have a few reports of dead bad guys from when the P90 first came into use, but that was with the AP round. We have Fort Hood (SS197SR was used primarily and some SS192), but that’s an entirely different situation. Some YouTube videos have shown similar to more damage in pork shoulders compared to .45 ACP, but the medium used is not a constant.

      • Bob

        Not that it is especially relevant, but I understand the commercially available non armor piercing ammo out of the pistol will not penetrate body armor.

        • Slvrwrx

          The question begs, which one. SS197SR, 40gr vmax, will not penetrate level II soft armor from the pistol. It will probably IIA. However SS192/195/198 (which is all commercially available), will penetrate II, and sometimes IIIA depending on the quality of the vest. The American Eagle TMJ round will penetrate level II as well.

          Any of the 3-4 companies that offer loads for the 5.7x28mm, all make sub 40gr loads that go 2000-2400 fps, and they defeat level IIIA with ease.
          5.7x28mm of course stands no chance against any steel body armor like Level III, or in some cases manufacturers (AR500 Armor) who make a level IIIA steel plate (which really could be considered an ultra lightweight rifle plate, but since no rating exists, it drops to IIIA)

      • IIRC, actual *testing* at Quantico, conducted for the Marines, showed the FN 5.7, with the military ammo, left wound tracks indistinguishable from .22WMR solids. Which is nothing to rote home about.

        And I don’t believe it will go through modern military body armor, either. Police soft vests, sure.

        • Slvrwrx

          There’s no handgun/PDW caliber that will penetrate hard armor. maybe one that’s been heavily compromised, but 5.7 penetration of armor stops at hard stuff. Kevlar or semi rigid polymer it eats right through. AKA helmets

          That *testing* sounds like a rehash from the list that’s been circulating for years. the FMJ 9mm it “could” replace, doesn’t have that amazing of a wound tract either.

          Logistically, they have probably billions of 9mm sitting around. I don’t think switching to a new caliber would make any sense at all.

          • True, the 9mm ball doesn’t leave a great wound track.

            It is still superior to the track left by 5.7mm by a large margin.

            The PDW idea of a SCHV bullet, from basically a pistol sized round, at pressures that fall within pistol recoil levels, is fundamentally flawed. At least in a military environment. You simply don’t get enough advantage to compensate for the disadvantages, particularly the (much larger than supporters will admit) logistics downsides of trying to fit another weapons system in a *very* tiny “ecological niche” in a world where we have assault.rifles (in fact, the standard rifle for the US) are *smaller” than SMGs back in the last big conflict where SMGs were a major player. It’s the small arms equivalent of trying to fit a 70mm mortar into the pace between 60mm and 81mm. A *lot* of headaches for an inconsequential “.

            Choosing a service *pistol* round, based on its performance in a, frankly, militarily irrelevant weapon system buys you the worst of *all* plausible worlds. You get most of the headaches and even fewer advantages.

  • victory0311

    Sig p320 all the way!!!

    • Kivaari

      I haven’t shot one, but just dry firing one recently showed it had a very good DA pull.

      • victory0311

        Bought one last month, Awesome gun. It is making its mark early on.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        It points fine with practice. That is just you.

        However, it’s kind of a piggy. Every dimension feels large. Much larger than my trimmed down G17. It’s heavier which is forgiving when you are shooting, and less than ideal 99% of the rest of the time.

        I want to like the P320, but it’s flat out dead the second there is a modular M&P or Glock.

        • Kivaari

          I only tried a couple of dry fire point and shoot. The trigger was fine, I couldn’t attest to how it actually handles and shoots.

        • I haven’t shot the 320, but I have a pair of 250s (same frame and layout, only it’s DAO hammer, not striker).

          Points and shoots for me *much* better than my Gen 3 G19. Or my XD. Or my Berettas. Or anything not invented by John Moses Browning (PBUH).

  • Audie Bakerson

    Will we see more support for building the winner from parts?

  • Ed

    Still think there is internal split in the Army over this program. Bet Glock and S&W are on the top… Though who thing still may end up like ICC any way.

  • thedonn007

    Smith and Wesson, Glock, and Sig.

    I would be really disappointed if Smith and Wesson is not selected overall.

    • Kivaari

      I heard from a commercial range that uses primarily S&W M&Ps in classes, and they are NOT as reliable nor as long lasting as Glocks. I’ve never shot the M&P, it feels great. If they were as durable as the Glock, I couldn’t object.

      • Big Daddy

        The S&W feels good in the hand but the trigger is really bad, worse than the Glock. Also taking one apart can be troublesome. There a little pin that falls out and the gun won’t run. Also there’s the lever inside to take it apart, too many little things that can break or go wrong. I even tried the whole APEX trigger stuff and it still wasn’t near the Glocks ability for feedback to the shooter. The choice will probably be the SIG 320. I only have Glocks, they are kind of like the old Chevy of the auto world years ago for guns now.

        • Kivaari

          I prefer Glocks. I did just buy a Beretta PX4 9mm because I had a great deal given to me on a new-condition CX9 that came with 4 magazines. Before I ordered the PX4 I had to handle one to see if the trigger reach was better than the M9 – it is. Not a bad trigger pull. If it had not been for the carbine, I would never have bought it. Now if the Beretta CX4 took Glock 17 magazines, I’d be real happy.

        • n0truscotsman

          I’ve been running M&Ps for over a year now and my biggest complaint was the trigger. I mean, if you are going to copy Glock (which it IS!) at least get the trigger right.

    • victory0311

      Prepare for it! Sig p320 steels the show.!! Great pistol, and I have an M&P 9

    • All the Raindrops

      The m&p is the worst gun of the three. It’d ok, the others are better

  • mzungu

    May seem obvious to most of ya… but what is suppose to be “Modular” vs a non-modular hangun?

    • nadnerbus

      It’s got electrolytes

      • Stan Darsh

        Yes, but what ARE electrolytes?!

        • nadnerbus

          It’s what modular handguns crave.

    • Jesse Johnson

      I am sure they are talking about interchangeable grips so they can fit multiple peoples hands and maybe like with the Sig 320 the whole frame can be swapped

  • Will

    Caliber will be 9mm because service members “With smaller hands” won’t be able to handle the recoil of a the .40 which is a much better caliber.
    Naturally the Pentagon will give our war fighters the cheapest, not necessarily the best, handgun.

    • Kivaari

      More practical to use 9mm.

    • CommonSense23

      Yep. Good old 40cal. Lets use a round with decreased capacity. More noticeable recoil, more wear on a gun, and no real world increase in terminal ballistics.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Not to mention to dumndumb above, that 9mm and 40cal guns are almost always the same phsyical size

    • therealgreenplease

      I tend to agree but for a slightly different reason: 9mm is more commonly used amongst our NATO allies.

      • Frankly, international logistics compatibility for our pistol ammo is really the weakest argument for choosing a caliber. You could probably fit an entire *year’s* worth of pistol ammo for a high intensity, theater wide, conflict in *one airplane* (probably a C-17 or even a -141). We ship more ice cream to combat zones than we would pistol ammo.

        • therealgreenplease

          Fair point.

  • Big Daddy

    I own Glocks but I think the best handgun for the Army is the SIG 320. It’s a step ahead of the Glock. Also SIG is invested in a lot of the other requirements they want. The grip on the SIG is better and it already has rails, also the modularity is again ahead of the Glock. The trigger module is something I think the military would be interested in for ease of replacement and repair. Something wrong with the frame they don’t have to ditch the trigger module, something wrong with the module they can just replace it easily. You have to figure these handguns might be in service for the next 40-50 years. Maybe more with a new caliber so that is something the military might be looking into, the ability to change to a new caliber in the future of the gun’s life.

    Actually right now the best round for the military is probably the .357 SIG. As far as I know it will outperform other similar calibers for penetration and going through armor. A round similar to the Russian 9mm AP rounds in 357 SIG plus a Gold Dot and ball for training. Of course the Army has other criteria than common sense and performance.

    • therealgreenplease

      Now that you mention it, I wonder why the army didn’t decide to get its feet with with CT ammunition with this solicitation.

  • therealgreenplease

    Here’s an idea: force them all to use the same magazine and then chop the contract up somewhat evenly. Doing so would essentially turn the handgun market into a variation of the AR market where tons of different configurations essentially use a few common parts. I don’t think that’s a bad thing either btw.

    • The problem is the parts supply chain. Even with a common mag, the guns are vastly different internally. Logistics does not want to deal with supplying and tracking parts for three different guns.

  • Bill

    They’ll pick .40, so as to maximize incompatibility with NATO, require an entire new inventory and ammo control support system, and as it becomes less and less popular with LE trending towards the 9mm. Any luck at all, the mags wont even fit existing pouches. So of course it will be the .40.

    • nadnerbus

      They’ll have to get new pouches anyway when they switch camo patterns again for the 30th time.

  • KestrelBike

    I just can’t see the FN five-seven fitting the average woman’s hand…

  • Don Ward

    “As for calibers, reportedly the .45 ACP is the least favored option”

  • NukeItFromOrbit

    Army should shock everybody and go with 10mm.

    • Kivaari

      Horrible idea.

      • Mazryonh

        “What? You mean to tell me you don’t want a round that goes great in a short-barrelled SMG, has a long flat-shooting range for a handgun, can be manufactured on existing production lines, has the capability for magazine commonality with handguns and SMGs, and works great in either supersonic or suppressed and subsonic loadings? Well, it is your choice.”

        That’s the “used car salesman pitch,” but I don’t think it’s far off the mark for 10mm Auto.

        • Kivaari

          I feel the 10mm in a handgun for military or LE is one of the very worst choices to be made. In a subgun it would work, but if you have that, you may as well have an M4 and a sensible handgun. An M4 and Glock 17/19 is an excellent choice. I would never select a handgun that is the size of, weight of, recoil of a 10mm. I used .40s for a little bit, but did not see any REAL reason for it to replace 9mm. That 1mm increase in diameter just isn’t worth the change.

    • Anon

      Why? You could make a better case for going with the 5.7×28.
      If you need more power than a 9mm, that’s why they give you a RIFLE.

      • Mazryonh

        You can carry a short-barrelled SMG of the right design with you almost anywhere if you can holster it, and if it has a buttstock and foregrip it’s a lot easier to shoot accurately than a handgun under stress. 10mm is also a lot less hard on its guns than 5.56mm NATO is on short-barrelled carbines, especially when a sound suppressor is used (never mind how much easier it would be on the users’ hearing). So for CQB and ease of carry the PDW class has some advantages that compact carbines don’t cover.

    • Mazryonh

      The US Armed Forces unilaterally adopted the 5.56x45mm cartridge before the rest of NATO did, so they’ve already “shocked” everybody with that kind of action before.

  • Lee

    The p09 is one of the nicest shooting handguns ive ever used. The price is dirt cheap too.

  • Just curious – Are soldiers allowed to modify their issued sidearms at their own expense? For instance, if the M&P wins, an Apex trigger job or equivalent or do they have to leave it as issued?

  • Wolfgar

    I have seen the Smith & Wesson M&P with more than it’s share of malfunctions compared to other striker fired handguns in competition. The Glock can be run faster than all the other hand guns in my experience and is dead nuts reliable and tough. But if I was the person to select the next military hand gun it would be the CZ PO9 with the decocker. It is very safe hand gun for less experienced shooters and has an excellent trigger. It is also very accurate and reliable. Either way these are all excellent hand guns and I’m sure pricing will decide the out come.

  • Joey JoJo Jr.

    So, now that we’ve exhausted all our gun-fanboy-fave-fetishes…let’s get serious and talk logistics.
    Which pistol system has the least number of parts?
    Which pistol system has the cheapest unit cost?
    Which pistol system has the quickest armorer’s training?
    Which pistol system has the simplest manual-of-arms and least controls?
    Which pistol system fits the most users’ hands acceptably, if not comfortably?

    I’ll give you a hint: They have a plastic grip frame and a big “G” stamped on the slide.

    This is why SOCOM has gone the way they have. It’s not rocket surgery.

    • Don Ward

      Which gun doesn’t have a manual safety?

      • Joey JoJo Jr.

        Does it matter? A safety can be added or subtracted to all designs, subject to the whims of the contract.

      • Kivaari

        I prefer passive safeties. Most modern pistol makers offer such versions.

    • Dracon1201

      1: Glock
      2: Probably M&P
      3: They all take about the same time
      4: Almost any in the running (None are complicated)
      5: Glock’s grip is most people’s complaints, all the rest have more agreeable grips.

      Truth is, we don’t know half the real reasons SOCOM goes with what it does.

      • Joey JoJo Jr.

        2: Do some research- M&P series is more complicated, and has a couple of very picky little springs in some components.
        3: Glock’s and M&P AC’s are 8 hours, with minimal tools… go see how long the Beretta and CZ AC’s are, along with tool lists. You may be shocked.
        4. A manual of arms involving something ergonomically sub-optimal like a slide-mounted safety is substantially harder to teach and retain.
        5. Grip comfort is completely subjective. Grip size, measured against percentiles of users is what matters, especially when the user number is in the hundreds of thousands.
        Bottom line: When we apply our personal likes and dislikes as shooters to a huge purchase decision, we may be missing the point.
        Oh, and we do know how SOCOM makes their decisions. It’s not some uber-ninja-mystical-mumbo-jumbo star chamber secret process.

        • Ethan

          “Oh, and we do know how SOCOM makes their decisions. It’s not some.. secret process.”

          Then by all means, please provide a link to the document SOCOM released explaining their reasoning for all their purchasing decisions.

          ..you’re not one of those types who thinks anecdotal heresay actually counts for anything, do you?

          • john huscio

            I’m guessing SOCOM gets a bunch of pistols, tests them and buys what works best for their personel. Since they’re the tip of the spear they can probably get pistols in more hands for testing than “big army” can.

        • Dracon1201

          I literally replied in order.

          On the armorer’s courses; that’s not entirely an issue. If they train the armorers, they have plenty of time to accomodate any of the systems above.

          The safety is why I hated my M9, and subsequently sold it.

          Grip IS very subjective, we have to fit a wide number of hands. Some are still more universally comfortable than others that have fairly blocky grips.

          Overall, yes, everyone has their own preference, and we should probably agree to disagree on these issues.

          We do know a lot of the procurement process is negotiation, and we don’t know the details of that. Some of it can get shady, that’s what I meant about SOCOM, and why we aren’t 100% on why they choose everything, which may be slightly different than their stated reasons.

      • Kivaari

        Most military people don’t have enough experience to know what a pistol should feel like. As I said earlier, the biggest complainers regarding Glocks are those that have used another model almost exclusively. When typically untrained people are issued a Glock, it will become what a pistol is supposed to feel like. It is why I don’t like the feel of most handguns using frame styles common 25 or more years ago. Pick up a S&W M39 and it feels right. Pick up a S&W M59 and it feels bad. Grab an M&P and it feels like a good Glock. Like the VP9. even HK has learned how to make a gun feel right. I never met a person that felt the Mk 23 Mod O felt good. Yet, some folks think it would be the ideal issue gun.

        • Dracon1201

          MK 23 is just huge in general. I will say, a glock 21 gen 3 was my first handgun when I was 14. I shot it until I was 16. It never felt good to me, I never got used to it, and I sold it, but that’s just me. I picked up a CZ75B and it was like the heavens opened. That’s just my preference, though.

  • Louis McCluer

    I would see the leaning towards the Glock. Reliability, capacity, parts availability, cost, weight, range of use in different environments, and if you want you can thow in the ability to change out barrels. The only one I see close to matching those points is the MP.

    • Ethan

      At the end of the day, its a pistol intended for a combat field dominanted by Rifles, airstrikes, and indirect fire weapons. I’m with you – as long as its reliable, who cares?

  • Tony Williams

    Curious about the FN, considering that at NDIA in April I fired a sand-coloured 9mm FN pistol stamped M17, and the FN rep confirmed that was the one developed for the MHS.

    Maybe they changed their minds after making it.

    • Mazryonh

      Do you know what the name of that 9mm FN pistol was?

      And if you’re the same Anthony G. Williams who runs that nice firearms knowledge site, thanks for your hard work.

  • Petto

    Why the FN went with 5-7 pistol only? isn’t that odd , that they didn’t send FNX or FNS?
    that’s really weird

    • Qba

      Because 5.7 is FN rund

  • RealitiCzech

    I hope they adopt the Five-Seven. I’ve been wanting ammo prices for it to drop since forever.

    • Slvrwrx

      You know it’s almost as cheap as 9mm to shoot right now? PSA sells the AE TMJ for $14/50 right now..

      • RealitiCzech

        I think I’m going to need a fainting couch. And a large line of credit.

  • Dr. Longfellow Buchenrad

    Sig P320 all the way if the only alternatives are Glock and M&P

    I shot my friends 320 the other day and its a very nice shooter for a polymer gun; that and the Sig’s modular system is definitely superior to the replaceable backstraps found on the other two.

  • Ambassador Vader

    No submission from high point? hahaha I thought the pencil pushers would have loved to see that price for the bottom line. Plus they could use it as a tent pole hammer.

    • SirOliverHumperdink

      or as a lug wrench

      • Ambassador Vader

        The possibilities and savings are endless.

  • A Fascist Corgi

    I’m rooting for the M&P. If they just improved the grip texture it would be the perfect polymer pistol in my opinion. It has already been proven to be be reliable and durable. A 2010 ATF test showed that the M&P had zero gun-caused stoppages. And a long-term torture test conducted by a gun blog showed that the M&P can go for over 50,000 rounds without experiencing a part breakage that would cause a malfunction. There’s also all kinds of variants to fit every role in the U.S. military, including variants with thumb safeties. And the reason why that’s important is because unlike the trend in the civilian gun world, large government entities tend to like thumb safeties since they have a statistical perspective when it comes to accidental discharges (which I happen to agree with). They know that thumb safeties significantly decrease the number of accidental discharges. And to top it all off, they’re made in America. It’s a no brainer. I’d be very surprised if the M&P didn’t win.

  • 11b

    As a former soldier I’m amazed the Army is considering pistols without manual safeties. I foresee the instances of NDs going up like ten-fold simply because those who carry pistols get *very* little training on them.

    • Kivaari

      The military has a problems with NGs involving weapons that have manual safeties. To me, I prefer the Glock because it doesn’t need a safety. Typically military people wont carry the gun with a liv round in the chamber outside of a combat patrol. That adds to the likelihood that when needed the pistol will not be ready. With a Glock, the gun is not cocked. It remains at the ready as long as the user is allowed to have a chambered round. That issue is dangerous. The pistol should be ready at all times. No having to make it ready when things happen, just always ready, like on a cops hip or a private person wanting a defense gun. Keep it ready always.

  • Friend of Tibet

    G17 for the way!!! After used CZ75, 92FS INOX, HK45CT, SIG 1911 for different IPSC matches and own all of them, Glock 17 is still my favorite.

  • Ethan

    Screw 40S&W… please just let that caliber die like it was always going to.

    10MM (FULL HOUSE 10mm, not these downloaded 10mm that most manufacturers are selling) is coming back, 9MM has become more effective, and 40 just doesn’t do anything better

    • Ethan

      *Premature post*
      40 Just doesn’t offer anything over either caliber.

      -40 is indistinguishable from 9MM in terms of wound channel when a modern hollow point is used.
      -40 Lacks the velocity that made 10mm popular.
      -40 offers lower capacity and increased recoil over 9mm
      -40 causes SIGNIFICANTLY faster wear on guns than 9mm or 45AUTO.
      -40 Ammo is more expensive than 9mm, despite offering no discernable ballistic advantage besides on paper.

      Is 40 an effective round? ABSOLUTELY!
      Is it in any way more effective than 9mm or 10mm or 45AUTO? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

      • Jwedel1231

        While I agree that adopting the 10mm as our service cartridge would be cool (and a great idea for those that would spend the time to get proficient with it), the idea of making everyone carry the rank equivalent of a small magnum caliber is not a good idea. It will take much longer for people to train to a proficient level with the increased power of the 10mm, and that’s for the ones who actually try. Considering that this is the last-ditch effort, barely above using a knife, and will not be used by 99% of those who carry it, I just don’t see the benefits as being worth the cost.

        • Anon

          Where did they say that we should adopt 10mm? All I saw was them arguing that the 40 has no reason to exist because it doesn’t really offer anything to make it stand out (which I agree with).

          • Jwedel1231

            Sorry, I missed that detail. I just assumed that you were advocating for adopting the 10mm Auto.

          • Anon

            I’m not that guy though, just someone who read the comment and saw that it didn’t seem to suggest that we should adopt that round.
            If I was that guy, I would have used the same username as I did before (unless you were talking to OP to begin with, and this comment was pointless).

          • Kivaari

            Re-read the comments. Man people think the 10mm is perfect. It would be an even poorer choice than a .45. The .45 is a poor choice for a mass-issued handgun.

          • Anon

            Exactly, if you need more power than a 9mm, that’s why you are given a RIFLE.

            And yeah, I think they did imply that we should adopt 10mm, but they did have a point in that .40 has no reason to exist.

      • Mazryonh

        There is one good thing that the previous widespread adoption of the .40 S&W round has achieved. .40 S&W uses the same projectiles and casings that are 3mm shorter but the same diameter as 10mm Auto, so if 10mm Auto is ever adopted on a large scale, the .40 S&W production lines can be converted without much difficulty to produce 10mm Auto.

        Ease-of-use and training concerns with the 10mm Auto would be greatly reduced if it were used in an SMG because the ergonomics and weight would make the cartridge’s recoil much easier to control.

        • Kivaari

          No the existing .40 caliber pistols are built on 9mm sized frames. One of the biggest complaints about the 10mm pistols like the FBI’s 1076 was it was too large and too heavy. Not many agents could handle them well. Most complained about the weight, grip size, recoil, flash and all the things that make the 10mm a poor choice for a mass-issue handgun. Being built on the .45 sized S&W frame, makes the 10s really big and heavy. We sure should not pick such a gun-caliber combination.
          When the FBI asked for a lower recoiling round, the big shots said, well if the FBI wants less power, we can easily do that in a smaller case and we can build them on 9mm frames. The birth of a cartridge.
          Early pistols including Glocks had frame failures. It is at that ti that Glock added the “extra pin”. So, in addition to “first pin” there is a new “second pin” near the original. That helped preserve frames. I understand the California Highway Patrol still uses 20+ year old S&Ws using the long discontinued frame style.
          What happens too often in law enforcement agencies, is the brass leave the choices up to a review board comprised of shooters that think that if they can handle the gun well, everyone can handle the gun well. It IS too common in civilian police agencies. “Everyone knows” the .45 is so much better that a .45 gets picked. Oops, 80% of the users are left with a gun too big and heavy that it puts them at greater risk.

          • Mazryonh

            I meant that the .40 S&W ammo production lines could be converted to 10mm Auto with more ease than starting up a new handgun/SMG ammunition line, such as the 4.6x30mm round by H&K, not that current handgun production lines could be easily changed to manufacture 10mm Auto handguns on a massive scale.

            I can’t find hard info right now, but I have a feeling that the S&W 1006 weighs more than an empty Gen 4 Glock 20 (which itself is only 5.6 ounces more than the Glock 17). The grip size could be reduced if a single-stack handgun model were developed or adopted, like the SIG P220 in 10mm (and you could use extended magazines to get 10 or more rounds out of that platform). As for muzzle flash, that’s something all shooters have to get used to, short of getting threaded barrels and putting on flash hiders or similar devices.

            Didn’t a lot of police officers train themselves to effectively use .357 magnum in revolvers in the past, which 10mm Auto is largely the semi-automatic equivalent of? If they could handle that kind of cartridge then, they should be able to do it now. You can even see youtube vids of female shooters handling the 10mm Auto cartridge fairly well. In any case, handgun-equipped police officers definitely need more training time across the board, because handguns are so difficult to use well under stress.

          • Kivaari

            The 10mm will never be adopted for use. It simply is too large, too heavy, has too much recoil, and all of those failures make it a poor choice for a general issue weapon. You could easily adapt .40 cal production lines to make 10mm, but it just will not happen.
            By the mid-70s most LE agencies I am aware of had stopped using .357 magnum ammo. The .357 in a S&W K-frame revolver, the most popular gun, was quickly worn out if .357 ammo was used for training and service. Most agencies issued piles of very low powered .38 special ammo for training. Except, training with .38s in no way prepares you to handle .357. A problem with .357 is too much flash and too much recoil. Rapid shooting with accuracy is non-existent. The flash ruins night vision. When ammunition companies started selling high velocity .38 special JHP ammo people saw the light. The old 158 RNL loads were poor performers. Once the “Super-Vel” style ammo appeared, it made better sense to go to lighter recoiling .38, where hits were easier. There was still an issue with bright muzzle flash, and powder makers addressed the issue creating low flash ammunition. A +P or +P+ .38 Special gives improved wounding performance without the negatives .357 magnum rounds had and still have today. It is better to get there with less, than to miss with more. Some people can master the big guns. They will not be your average soldier or cop. I moved from .357 in the early 70s for all the reasons listed. I would to this day take a .38 special +P load over .357 in a defensive handgun. We did move to a more effective pistol round, in the 9mm. A 9mm gives performance above .38 special and in +P+ loadings not all that far behind .357. And it can do so without the heavy recoil, bright flash and with faster recovery between shots. A Glock 17 handles the task better than a Glock 22 in .40. There is no Glock 20 (10mm) or 21 (.45) that can fulfill the role of a general issue handgun as well as a Glock 17 or 19.
            IF we see a new caliber introduced I suspect it will be the .40. BUT, it is known that the .40 using FMJ ammunition does not perform better than a 9mm FMJ IN THE REAL WORLD. I support efforts to legalize expanding handgun bullets for use in international warfare. I love the Federal Guard Dog that has a FMJ bullet that expands. We can have a reasonable pistol and cartridge, that already exists.
            WE will NEVER adopt the 10mm or .45 as a general purpose service pistol.

        • Kivaari

          There is no desire for a 10mm SMG. HK made a few. No one bought them in any numbers. A 5.56mm M4 or Mk 18 fulfils the role where a SMG could be used. M4s do it better, and are already in the system. There is no serious need to have a SMG and handgun sharing ammo when used in military settings. We used G17/19s and MP5s and it was just fine. But we were not doing open warfare. We eventually went to M4 carbines, as it was shown they were no more dangerous for over penetration in an urban setting than 9mm. BUT, the 5.56mm gives better performance and greater range in a package not a lot bigger than the MP5. This is one reason the police patrol carbines using the same magazine as the handgun did not make deep penetration into police service. The Ruger PC9, Marlin Camp Carbine, HK94, Uzi etc made good police carbines, the 5.56 carbines offer even better performance. I’d use a 9mm carbine and pistol without hesitation in an urban setting. My issue is the carbine needs to take Glock magazines. In my day, there were no proven 9mm carbines using Glock magazines. Some small outfits tried to do so, but they never made.
          Ammo compatibility is not a big issue. We never worried about having our shotguns taking .38s.

          • Yup, *everything* you would want out of a standard MP5, you can get better, cheaper, *and shorter* in a standard M4. Even if you stick with ball ammo (instead of, as so many PDs use, the really fantastic TAP rounds.)

          • Kivaari

            What is so good about the M4 and Glock combination is both weapons have been proven in the real world. Now anyone (where permitted by law) can buy the very best. That doesn’t mean they have to cost $2500 to $4000 each. Some people suggest that for individuals. I’d hate to use a personal gun in a lawful shooting, where it gets held in evidence for just about every.

          • “Replaceability” is fairly important. Not just because of the risk of having the gun stuck in evidence for an unknown period (after all, the odds of having a shooting at all are pretty small, but yeah, having your customized “price of a safe and reliable used car” highly customized 1911 beating around an evidence locker in the basement for months sucks), but because guns break, guns get stolen, etc.

            I don’t particularly like the Glock (although I’ll readily admit it’s a fine *tool* – it’s just one I personally don’t like to shoot, and don’t shoot as well as a plethora of other fine tools). However, I have a bone-stock (not even new sights) G19 *specifically* for teaching new shooters. Because, if they like it and do well with it, I can tell them, “If you like it, you can get one *exactly like it* pretty much anywhere they sell new pistols, clean it, load it, and drive on.”

          • Mazryonh

            I think the current absence of a widely-issued 10mm SMG is mainly due to the fact that the caliber isn’t widely known for what it’s really capable of. Yes, M4A1s and MK. 18s (AKA CQBRs) are widespread, but the M4A1 is both longer and heavier than an MP5, and CQBRs have a pressure problem (check out the link to the Small Arms Defense Journal I posted further down in the comments) and waste a lot of their ammunition’s propellant with every shot (it ends up as the blast and flash that doesn’t go into accelerating the projectile). So an SMG is by and large more efficient with its internal ballistics at least, and for LEO agencies who don’t have to deal with longer-range shots on a regular basis, it’s good enough.

            If compactness is the trait you’re looking for, you can build an SMG that loads from the pistol grip without going into the problems posed by a bullpup layout, and it’s much harder to do that with a cartridge like 5.56x45mm.

            Another reason to adopt an SMG for CQB is that friendly fire incidents are somewhat less likely to cause casualties, because you can’t wear Level III or Level IV armour everywhere, but Level IIIA will stop most non-AP pistol calibers. That’s one reason why the MP5 has stuck around for so long.

            You want a PCC that takes Glock mags and also happens to be sold in a 10mm Auto model? Try the ones offered by Thureon Defense or Mechtech Systems. Sharing calibers for handguns and long guns at least offers a chance to save money for non-paramilitary LEO agencies (which could be useful given the problems with the USA’s defense budget problems), and 10mm Auto in most loadings does gain a good bit of velocity from longer barrels found in PCCs and SMGs.

          • Kivaari

            There will be NO place for 10mm pistols or SMGs in a military setting. No sane department will adopt a 10mm for general issue. It is one of the very worst choices that can be made. Then there is no need for a 10mm SMG. An MP5 is fine in 9mm. I used them for over 10 years. I used HK M94 SBRs before we adopted MPs. We did after I took the chief out with my HKs and Uzi. I was using them 5 years before the FBI adopted the MP5SF (single-fire).
            Today, it makes sense to use a M4 in either 5.56mm or in an urban setting the .300 BLK with a can. There is no setting where the military needs an MP5, in 10mm.
            We used Glocks in 9mm and MP5s. It worked fine. We also had M16s and M14s. Eventually we replaced the MP5 with M4 carbines.

          • Kivaari

            You don’t have to try to convince me that having an MP5 is a good idea. What I would never recommend is adopting a 10mm pistol of any kind as a police service weapon for general issue. Maybe a couple SWAT guys could use them, but the idea of having a 10mm as general issue is an absolute non-starter.
            A 10mm SMG isn’t a bad idea. Just pairing it with a pistols is a bad idea. In a military setting there is no reason to adopt anything in 10mm. A new pistol? Maybe a .40 S&W, but the forty is no more effective than a 9mm. It would be an expensive waste of money and would serve no purpose. Adopt a Glock M17 or M19 and be done with it.
            The military has pretty much shown there is no need for another SMG. The MP5SD, I not very reliable, and the short ported barrel dumps about 400 FPS velocity, and thus reduces its effectiveness. That is what is behind the unreliability of the SD. A standard MP5 with a twist on or screw on suppressor has value. I would prefer a .300 BLK with a can, if you want subsonic performance. No extra training needed for armorers or additional spare parts beyond the barrel. Or as I believe current combat ops have shown, the M4 with a can is a great choice.
            Being real small is an “OK” thing. I’d take an M4A1 Commando, using a 11.5 inch barrel and a screw on can, that brings the size down. Being a couple inches longer than an MP5 with a can isn’t much.
            The MP5 has an 8.85 inch barrel. The Commando comes with a 10.3, 11.5 or a 12.5 barrel. I use an 11.5 inch. It’s pretty handy.
            A 10mm SMG, would need to be loaded down to get subsonic performance. Even more reason to avoid adding another system to the mix.
            Let civilian or federal cops use 10mm SMGs if they like. So far not many have been made, nor is there a loud cry for more of them.
            There is no serious call for adopting a 10mm handgun anywhere except among gun club types. For some reason proponents of the 10mm can’t see beyond their personal love for the round and the huge guns needed to fire it. Police AGENCIES and military organizations will continue to ignore the 10mm, as there are simply no valid reasons to issue them. A bad choice for every one except an individual buyer. I’d then say, that person has hurt their chances of performing as well as they could had the picked a better pistol.

      • Kivaari

        The 10 mm was never popular. It is becoming more so for use in guns not being used for self defense but for hunting.
        I use 9mm. The .40 is no more effective than 9mm. It has an advantage for those thinking a .40 is needed, but it is still in a 9mm sized gun. It satisfies the illusion of being bigger and better. .40s do wear out faster. .40s kick harder. The 10mm are harder hitting, but with that comes all those negatives.

  • Captain Obvious

    Pistols on the battlefield are a last ditch weapon. The powers that be are making this too hard and complicated. You can’t please or fit everyone so they need to just pick one of the available modern pistols and be done with it.

  • De Facto

    Yup. Our abandonment of Eastern Europe under FDR, Truman, and Eisenhower was shameful. Despite it all the Czechs are still pro-western, somewhat to my amazement. If I had to live somewhere in Europe it would be the Czech Republic or Switzerland.

  • Bal256

    Hopefully their picks have some sort of red dot mounting system

  • clampdown

    I think Glock is the most logical choice, seeing how it’s the standard for many NATO nations. I just don’t see how any other choice stacks up practically/logistically speaking. Hate to say it, but on a battlefield with a joint nation task force, being to pick up a loaded mag off of a downed ally beats picking up his Glock mag and putting the rounds into an M9 mag.

    On that same note, abandoning 9mm NATO would create an even greater logistical nightmare. Even the Russians and Chinese use 9×19 as their standard caliber. If we find that the average soldier needs armor penetrating pistol power, we should engineer some 9mm like the lightweight high velocity Russian stuff. Then you’d still be able to pick up 115 grain ball instead of scrounging for 5.7.

    I know with modern logistics and dissimilar warfare these kinds of things really aren’t an issue, but you never know what might happen. We cut the F22 production because we take air superiority for granted, but, in the case of war in the South China Sea, we’re only gonna have 175 of the best fighter in the word to take on scores of Chinese Flankers. The F35 will probably need Raptor escort to ensure survivability. Seems to me like we are spending so much money and we really aren’t prepared for conventional or dissimilar warfare. I mean, no one has any idea how many of its intended jobs the F35 will actually be capable of. You’d think with something as simple as a pistol, there would be no need for 12!? proposals.

    • Mazryonh

      Picking up an incompatible magazine might not be so bad if the caliber was the same and you had a compatible speedloader to transfer the ammunition into your own magazines. The Russians actually have done one better with 9mm diameter rounds too, making a 9x39mm caliber for short-range armour-piercing work in rifles and carbines.

  • Boy, the APX looks like a real turd.

    • John Yossarian

      I don’t understand why they didn’t submit the Storm.

      • The px4 is an amazing pistol, and many people feel that it is super comfy. Very italo in design. It is quite underrepresented concerning 9mm pistols.

        • William Taylor

          The Stoeger Cougar 8000 is closely related, very similar and less expensive. The Cougar is actually made on Beretta tooling.

          • I saw one on a youtube video recently, and it reconfirmed my extended research on the history of the bersa 380 pistols.
            The external trigger bar on all 3 is a dead ringer.

  • Mark

    Would it not be an issue in today’s world situation , that a country should source their weapons locally to prevent any interruption of supply lines especially when the contract includes ammunition. Just a thought.

    • And any winner *would* be locally sourced.

      It doesn’t matter where the original design lives – the contract will be fulfilled by US corporations out of US factories. Period.

      Just like most of our military small arms are currently built by FN… in South Carolina.

  • Hilltop

    Of the finalists mentioned, the Glock seems to make the most sense. Longest record. I don’t know anything that would deter me from any of them. Would be kinda nice to see S&W get the contract as an American Company.

    • Kivaari

      Glock, SIG and Beretta are now American companies.

      • Hilltop

        Those companies are all based in other countries w/ operations in the US. Honda makes a lot of cars in the US but it’s still a Japanese company.

  • john huscio

    I doubt the current generation of Americans could tell a Czech from a Croatian from a Pole……I doubt even more that 99% of americans currently alive have any pronounced hostility towards Central Europeans specifically.

    • Kivaari

      Most Americans simply don’t know much of anything. It is shameful.

    • Kivaari

      Some are surprised that New Mexicans speak English. All one has to do to keep them wondering how we will survive is to watch Watter’s World on the O’Reilly Factor. It seems that only older conservatives know what’s going on. Our college aged kids are without an education. They vote. Many hate guns.

  • Tritro29

    Western Nations? Is this thing for real? Can you tell me what the Munich Agreement was? Can you tell me what exactly does the Czech mentality (one of extreme social conservatism, little risk taking and overall quiet discontent) have to do with the brash non-sense typically mustered in the “West”? I did read what you wrote, which would have benefited from the use of correct punctuation. What you wrote looked like John McCain had had an illegitimate oratory affair with Ronald Reagan.

    Czechs have no non-sense irrelevance syndrome like the Baltics. Or a general habit to cry wolf (sorry Poland) but they have suffered two very brutal political actions at the hand of both blocs.

    Maybe you think that Czech interests lie with the “West”, I say they lie firmly in the German area of ‘prosperity’, which takes a firm root in Central and Eastern Europe. Nothing to do with “Western Nations”. Their welfare is firmly tied with the Berlin-Moscow axis (check their trade partners) and what ever non-sense you might dream off. Czechs are Slavs and they’re Central Europeans. It’s a completely different world than “Western nations”.

    Oh also you’re completely out of your mind.

    • Kivaari

      Did you know that Germany is considered the leading western nation in Europe? Did you know that trade agreements don’t indicate anything but trade? If Trade meant that much, it would mean the US is aligned with China and Europe.
      The Czech Republic seems to be consistent with what western Europe wants, since they did join NATO. Doing trade internationally indicates what? Well, it shows they look to the sources for what they want and markets for wart they want to sell.
      You act as if I dislike people of the region. My grandfather served in the Russian Army. He had more in common with Americans and Canadians than he did with Russia.
      Your personal nationalist pride is getting in the way of our common desire for freedom. I celebrate the fall of the wall, while you seem to like the idea.

      • Tritro29

        Germany the most Eastern great Nation in Europe beun Western ? Do you happen to know why they were called Huns back in the day? Because We were called Tatars and Mongols. Your knowledge of European feuds is clearly lacking.

        • Kivaari

          Do you know why Russia is called Russia? The Swedish Empire is responsible for that. They named the major river the “Russ”. Why did the 17-18th century Czars impose western styles into Russia. They viewed Russia as being so far behind Western culture. Correct. Why the steady stream of insults. WE DO have much in common.

          • Tritro29

            Western styles? Haha…if by western you mean mainly German customs with a sprinkle of Italian Architecture, then yes that was as western as my socks come from China. Russia was so far “behind” in Western Culture than basically we were what invaded 17 times in that timespan, from the West? Also from the River Russ? What river? The river in Kiev is the Dnepr, not the “Russ”.

            Hell, Ruotsi doesn’t come from the River, it comes from the act of rowing because the Swedes that would pillage and burn under that name, would row instead of sailing (you know river current and all that). So what is it? Are we Swedes now? We don’t have much in common actually. We’re far past the Empire building status. We’re trying for good and worse to keep you guys out of what we claimed for centuries. You stay out of our backyard, we stay out of yours. That’s the deal we had with Germans for long time. Stuff Anglo-Saxons don’t seem to understand.

          • Kivaari

            You ignore your history. If you noticed I said the Swedish Empire invaded. Not every name used 500 years ago, is in use today. Leningrad, Stalingrad. You remain uninformed about how boundaries charge through war, treaty, earth movement etc. That few places have the same name as they did centuries or decades ago. That almost no nation that existed 100 years ago is in the boundaries as they existed then. Look at the face of Europe and Russia. It is still in motion with Russians invading Georgia and Ukraine. Look how the Baltic states regained independence. You are so stubborn that you don’t even recognize when people are on your side. Stubborn and ignorant. Full of Russian pride and prejudice.

          • Evan

            “Rus” was not a river. The Kievan Rus, who gave Russia their name, took their name from the term (presumably in Old Norse) to row.

          • Kivaari

            e taught that it got that name from the Nordic boatmen that did so damn much rowing. Sort of a Volga boatman slowly signing away there perpetual labor.

          • Evan

            It was Swedish traders and raiders who would sail east, including up the Dnieper and various other rivers, who eventually founded Kiev. They were called (either by themselves or others, I don’t know) the Rus, which essentially means rowers, because of how they got there. Eventually, the Kievan Rus gave their name to an entire empire which has suffered from disastrously poor governance basically since day one.

      • Hell, the Soviet Union’s largest trading partner was Nazi Germany, up until Hitler invaded. And if you count grain shipments, I believe the US was one of the largest (like second or third) trading partners the Soviets had at the height of the Cold War.

    • Kivaari

      Wow, Your nationalist hatred is showing. I said nothing but good things about the former Warsaw Pact members that joined NATO or simply don’t want any bloody noses. You make that out as if I’ve insulted every central or eastern European. Idiocy to interpret what I said about Islam completely missing what I had said. When do trade policies involving movement of consumer goods between nations indicate the sphere of influence regarding border treaties.
      When did Germany lose its place as a leading Western European nation? Who cares that Europe sells food to Russia? Other than trade attaches wanting to increase the sale of apples and wheat to everyone. You seem to think that we give a rip about who you trade with. If you want junk cars, go buy Yugos at uncle Bernie’s used car emporium.
      Did you know that even the United States buys military hardware from Russia? Did you know that much of our strategic metals come from the former Soviet Union and the PRC?
      Did you know that much of the European nations fear Iran more than Saudi Arabia? That most of us do not trust the Wahhabis, or Shi’ites or Sunnis? That keeping your enemies real close is often the correct thing to do. If you think the USA created the Islamic problem 30-40 years ago by supporting the Muj against Soviets was the starting point, then tell my why family friends were murdered in Iran in the 50s. Why, Southern Europe was over run with Islamist 1000 years ago, and Europeans were not happy?
      America has a great deal in common with Germany. In the WW1 and WW2 era over 30% of Americans were of German heritage.
      Being Central or Eastern Europeans doesn’t mean we don’t share a great deal culturally or religiously.
      You must hold deep seated hatred for we people that want prosperity and freedom for all people. Odd, that you hold that NAZI-like trait. You would agree with the annexation of Czechoslovakia in the WW2 era. You’re a good German. Same with some of the “Germans” along the border with France.
      Europeans seem to constantly change borders through warfare.
      Like in the Ukraine. Like in Georgia. Like Poland. Like Finland. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kaliningrad.
      When the wall came down, which way did the former satellite nation turn to? Belarus, stayed a thug nation. Pretty much the rest gravitated to free markets. Who, is complaining that former WP members are selling goods in all directions. Selling – trading goods is good for the people.

      • Tritro29

        Hatred? You wake me up when You’ll know about Nationalism in Europe better than European themselves. Now back to your rant.

  • Kafir1911

    The Glock, M&P and Sig have proven themselves with US law enforcement for years. What is the problem with picking one of them. Also Glock and Sig have some serious history with US Spec Ops. Seems as though it would be quite easy to pick that new pistol.

  • valorius

    5.7mm is the only caliber that justifies a new handgun

  • Bob

    I’ll stick with my good old double stack 1911 in 45 ACP., but then, I am no longer a soldier!

  • midnitelamp

    why not 10mm if they move away from 9mm?

    • Qba

      Because 5.7 is better

    • Mazryonh

      Because not everyone can handle that cartridge well, or wants to train enough to do so.

      • midnitelamp

        these are soldiers we are talking about. when I was in we went plinking with 44mags. glad keith and cooper are not here to see this. if you don’t want to train get some remf position.

        • Mazryonh

          They might say that “I have a low-recoiling M4A1 carbine and enough magazines, what do I need a hard-to-learn pistol for?”.

          Then you remember the thousands of American conscripts in WWII who learned how to use the M1 Garand (at a hefty 9 pounds) effectively and depend on it. Granted, that was a long gun. And probably not too many people would think “plinking with .44 mag handguns” is fun.

          • midnitelamp

            wimps.

          • Mazryonh

            You tell them that, and they’d probably tell you how much they can bench press. Then you might tell them “so why is a 10mm handgun such a big deal?”.

  • James B.

    I would expect–and hope, frankly–that the Army will make a fairly boring, conventional choice for the MHS. A secondary weapon system can’t really justify substantial changes to the supply system, which rules out 5.7mm and disadvantages .40 and .45 in favor of 9mm offerings. There is also little reason to pay extra for extreme modularity, because few soldiers will ever use it.

    For those reasons, I concur with the article’s assessment of SIG, S&W, and Glock being the strong bets.

    • Kivaari

      Very well stated. It’s why I feel a Glock 17/19 is the best choice.

    • And *if* we change calibers away from 9mm, .45 ACP is the inside favorite, I believe. Because of history and myth.

  • Tom

    Jane’s needs to check their sources, the FN pistol submitted is not the 57. It’s a new designed 9mm related more to the FN tactical than anything else.

  • os2casey

    I’m not sure where you get your information, but I have heard from a reliable source that CZ pulled out of the competition. The gun they submitted is great and I don’t know why they did. I’m personally a big CZ fan and would love to see the military adopt them, even though they are not actually made in the USA.

    • Kivaari

      They would be. Like with Beretta. The first years involved Italian built guns, the second year Italian parts, assembled here and after the third year they needed to be built here. Glock and SIG have USA based factories.

      • os2casey

        That would be even better. I’d like to see American made Cz’s. I didn’t know about the Berreta history. I’m thinking it will be either the G19 or the Sig 320. The FBI is also looking for a new pistol and from what I heard, it was heavily weighted towards the Sig 320. If it wins the FBI, I’d have to think it could influence the Army’s selection of it too.

        • Kivaari

          At one time the FBI said no way would they take a Glock. Then they took Glocks. I can see them trading the M23s for M19s.

  • Tom

    My predictions…
    9mm, smith and Wesson/GD pistol for the win.
    Modern 9mm ammo does everything with less recoil the other calibers do, not to mention it is smaller and easier to fit a larger cross section of body types.
    But that’s just my opinion

    • Kivaari

      I can see that over any other caliber. I can’t see the S&W getting it. I’d like to see the adoption of the “Guard Dog” type FMJ-Expanding ammunition. I believe, and can be totally wrong, that that style round would be approved.

      • Ron

        EFMJ is in limited usage for CT work.

  • RSG

    The most ubiquitous handguns in the world are Glocks. They are currently competently manufactured in the US. There’s been wiiiiiiide adoption throughout US law enforcement and our military has been utilizing them as well. To think anyone else really has a chance, is tomfoolery.

  • Lew Siffer

    When I was young the gun that everyone used was the Colt Detective Special — “Works fine, lasts a long time.” Now it is the Glock 19. I agree with keeping it simple and STOP SPENDING MY TAX MONEY ON THIS. Glock 19.

  • bobk90

    The Handgun is a Last Ditch Weapon for the Military right? It doesn’t need all the Bells & Whistles either. Nor does it need 15 round capacities or the ability that a Real Commando needs. It simply needs to Work when its needed and have the ability to put the Bad Guy down with One well place Shot! The 1911 in 45ACP is the one that has that and is COMBAT proven! Being a Single Stack keeps it thin and less likely to snag on equipment. Best of all it’s AMERICAN MADE!

    • Mazryonh

      Funny how the handgun is the step above the bayonet in terms of “last-ditch,” and most military bayonets already have “bells and whistles” like a sawtooth portion on one edge and the ability to act as a wirecutter since they’re supposed to be both utility knives and bayonets.

  • buzzman1

    Lets hope they quickly eliminate the 5.7mm Unless they plan on buying only armor piercing rounds the 22 mag out performs it.

  • L Cavendish

    Still waiting to get my hands on an APX…why not produce for civilians while they wait for the test results???

  • Richard Kroll

    This will be like the Boeing tanker for the Air Force. Someone will be selected, top Congressmen will howl in protest and lobbyists will come in to buy off the deciders.
    Then the Army will get a lousy weapon of a different caliber (dump bizillion rounds of current 9mm ammo to “friendly” countries). Sounds about normal.

    • Well, the Boeing debacle was helped by the fact that one of Boeing’s top lobbyists was married to the Senate Majority Leader (later the Senate Minority Leader) at the time.

  • 2ThinkN_Do2

    CZ has been a European favorite for decades . . . . love my CZ75 B and CZ75 D Compact PCR. They are metal or metal alloy (PCR).

  • Drop the political talk guys—– I don’t want to delete comments but you need to stay on topic.

    • Tritro29

      Done.

    • James Young

      Their mostly unrelated arguement takes up so much of the comments section…would be nice if we could prioritize comments that discuss the actual story

      • Kivaari

        He went off the rails thinking my support for out ally the Czech Republic was wrong. I have no issues with CZ firearms. I have not used any of the newer Z pistols nor rifles. I used original CZ75s a little bit and found them to be crude. That was circa 1984 after paying $1250 import duty by Detonics so they could see what everyone was saying was so great. I was not impressed. Then those Italian clones were just worse, though prettier. The CZ75 has a military grade finish which for its intended purpose was fine. The heavy DA and SA trigger pulls of the era were bad. I’d like to try the newest models, but I wont buy one like I used to do. In the old days every new wonder gun to get written up in magazines, I had to try. There are now and were then too many glowing reports about guns having very poor qualities.
        I had great luck with mid-80s SIGs. HKs, like the P9s series were horrible, but people wanted them. Like the Walthers of the 1980-90s, Walther had never found its path and made some horrible pistols. I have not bothered to test any of the new guns. Once Glocks were proven, I just found little reason to go elsewhere. I bet we can buy some real fine pistols now. Even HK has learned how to make some of them fit the hand of most shooters. That wasn’t always the case. Free markets have shown that just slapping a name on a slide doesn’t mean success.

        • Lt_Scrounge

          They say that the new Omega trigger group has really improved the trigger on the CZ 75s. I haven’t tried it, but I think the Tristar may be a clone of the new trigger system as it allows the safety to be engaged with the hammer down. The original CZ trigger didn’t allow that. I owned a Tanfoglio TZ-75 with factory compensator in the early 90s and can tell you that it was a 16 round tack driver. I went shooting with a friend at one of the strip mining sites near my parents’ home and while he was having trouble hitting the furry part of the cat tails, I was snapping the stems off. He had competed in IPSC matches so he was a bit embarrassed.

        • James Young

          This is a great comment. It’s nice to hear less arguing about mostly unrelated topics and instead hear more informative talk of your experience with different guns over the years

      • I’m going through and delete them now.

        • James Young

          Thank you Phil

    • Brett

    • Kivaari

      OK

  • Zebra Dun

    Just pick one.
    Flip a coin or throw them and see which goes farther hell anything but a committee!

  • Mike11C

    A few months ago, I would have suggested the M&P but then I bought a Glock. I had one back in the 80s and I didn’t like it but, decided to give the Gen4 a try. I pay more attention to the actual workings of my weapons now days and, the Glock really impresses me. Their stock sights suck but that’s an easy fix. Hopefully, the military will opt for some better sights, maybe even the the Trijicon RMR. I am intrigued by the FN but, I don’t have any experience with the 5.7×28. I have fired FNs and, they’re great weapons but, I’m just not sure about such a small round.

  • Tritro29

    I was asked to drop the political talk, yet you keep spewing gibberish and non-sense. Being superior is the way deranged people talk. It reeks of violence and insecurity. Enjoy talking your bullshit, I’m keeping my part of the bargain.

  • Brett

    I have $5 on nothing coming out of this.

  • Mike Lashewitz

    Why do I think this will go terribly wrong?

  • Lt_Scrounge

    The Czechs didn’t even adopt the AK or the Tokarev pistols. They developed their own weapons using Soviet ammo specifications for the chambering of the CZ-52 pistol and the CZ-58 rifle. Both of which were far superior to the weapons that the Soviets and their satellites were producing.

    • Kivaari

      The Czechs had to be bullied into accepting Soviets 7.62x39mm. The Czechs used mostly Mausers, until stomped on by the bear. They did convert M91 Russian rifles to 7.9mm cheap expedient.

    • Kivaari

      After using both the Tokarevs and M52 Czechs, I’d take the TT33. It is simple in construction and care. I’ve seen quite a few broken safeties and firing pins on the M52.

      • Lt_Scrounge

        The CZ-52s are known to have weak firing pins, but there is a company selling new production stainless ones that are nearly unbreakable. The roller locking mechanism allows them to be fired with higher pressure ammo than the TT33. The TT33 is a much slimmer profile weapon though. One nice advantage to the CZ52 is that with a barrel change it can fire modern 9mm ammo from the same magazine. I’ve never seen a 9mm conversion for the TT.

  • Kivaari

    And you claim to be Russian? Russia is represented by the bear.
    A very mean bear. You really are a hardline Soviet left over.

    • Tritro29

      I cant count the times you have shone with your ignorance. The Bear was seldom used by Russians. It is a pejorative symbol mainly used by the Anglo-Saxons especially from the 19th Century. It was most prevalent in the wake of and during the Crimean War and it stuck to MOCK Russia rather than show its force. Our symbol for that matter is the Twin Headed Byzantine Eagle. As Moscow in the 16th was seen as Third Rome from Orthodox faithfuls. Once more talk about things you know and leave serious business to people in the know.

      • You realize most unofficial national symbols started off as pejoratives by their enemies, before being accepted by those they referred to?

        John Bull (England), Uncle Sam (US), and Yankee Doodle (pre-US American colonists) all started off as insults, to name a few.

        • Tritro29

          Maybe in the US. But generally in the civilized old world, symbols were picked by the people themselves not pinned on them by their enemies. Case in point, Three lions/Rose for the the UK. The Rooster/Boar for the French (nope the French don’t identify themselves as Frogs)/The Wolf and Imperial for the Italians (for a long time). Then the Biscione and St George’s Cross.

          Eagle for the Germans. Twin eagle for the Greeks, Albanians, Russians.

          I realise that in your view, we should have the symbols you employ for us, but in this world there’s this thing called Freedom and we pick our simbols ourselves. So thanks, but no thanks. The Bear is merely a joke compared to our historical symbols.

  • Kivaari

    They should carry stateside while in uniform.

  • Richard Lutz

    The SEALs now use the Glock 19, and so should everyone else in the US military.

  • CavScout

    Vote for the M&P.

  • Bubba

    Whatever happened to “Buy American” with you, ahem, “patriots” ?

    No wonder we’ve been embroiled in foreign wars for decades. Have to keep funding that new world order, eh guys ?

  • Qba

    Five-seveN have 20+1 mags

    • Dracon1201

      But in 5.7, which we might as well forget.

      • Qba

        5,7 is more accurate then 9 or 40.

        • Dracon1201

          “More accurate?” Uh, no it isn’t…

  • sometrend

    A 40 would be a good choice but it beats the hell out of a 9mm size platform. I don`t see the US military adopting the caliber anyway. If they`re itching to get away from the beretta then just go with the G17…it`s proven and reliable….A handgun is only a last ditch weapon anyway.

  • Evan

    It won’t be Glock. They’re gonna want a manual safety.

  • lhecker51

    Conditions should be, if not already, that all are manufactured here in the US and Turkish firearms manufacturers banned altogether.

    • Kivaari

      Just customers at both import and retail need to demand better quality. I would not own Turkish firearms as commonly available today. Junk. I wouldn’t buy Benelli either. Nor Tangfoglio. It comes from trouble over many years, that I have never observed fixed. It’s like buying one Egyptian Helwan, seeing a dozen beat to death by a few boxes of ammo and reduced to junk. Why, trust them in the future, when they never cared in the beginning.

  • Jackson Andrew Lewis

    glad they cleaned the article up 2 days ago it made no sence….

  • Note that the nations that made up the former Czechoslovakia were traditionally considered *Western* European (just like the Magyars of Hungary) until the Soviets conquered and occupied them for almost fifty years under the pretense of liberating them. Even the Slovaks (who were still “Western” despite being Slavs.)

    • Kivaari

      Yep!

  • Joe Goins

    I fail to see why this matters at all. The only part of the military that uses the M9 on a regular basis, while still infrequently, is the military police. Even though I was issued one, I never used during my two tours in Afghanistan.

    Besides, we all know that they are going to choose the Glock 17 (if they don’t cancel the program) because 1) the gun is becoming more common in NATO, 2) it has good reputation, and 3) it can actually pass the tests while the others are still unproven. But they sure as hell are not going to choose anything other than a 9MM because they have stockpiles of it.

    • I’d say the Glock, in 9x19mm is the betting frontrunner, for the reasons you state. But the Sig and S&W (with advantage to Smith) are also strong contenders.

      I doubt we would change calibers back o something that begins with a “4”, but both the .40 and .45 have a lot going for them, contract wise. The .40 is currently in major inventory (for the USCG) in a Hague compliant format* and has plenty of rounds that you can fit into a pistol. The .45 has a long history in US service, plenty of die-hard fans, an arguably (if marginally) better wound profile in FMJ, and doesnt beat the gun or newbie shooters up as fast as .40.
      .
      .

      * I do *not* believe we will switch to JHP for general military use due to the “lawfare” types, despite a very strong case being made that Hague is dead overall – compare the number of actual ratifiers versus the total.number of nations, then look at the ratification rates for the various Geneva Conventions- *and* Hague wouldn’t apply if the actual prohibition on “unnecessary suffering” is applied, as having to riddle a guy with ball pistol rounds versus fewer JHPs is more suffering, *and* unnecessarily endangers civilians (“proportionality”and “collateral damage”). (Military rifle bullets are mostly FMJ for reasons of terminal effectiveness, expense, and reliability in machineguns. But, unlike a rifle, the hard target performance of the best AP pistol round is nothing to write home about anyway, you don’t buy or use anywhere as many rounds, and they aren’t feeding through belt fed weapons with their rather chaotic – compared to a semiauto pistol – feed paths.)

      • Joe Goins

        The small share of ammo that the Coast Guard (a non-DOD entity) has will pale in comparison to what the Army will purchase.

        But like I said, they are likely to scrap the program. There is no advantage in replacing a sidearm that is barely used and actually being faced out from deployment in favor of the M4 and M4A1.

        • The fact that the Coast Guard ammo purchase is compared to the Army and the fact that it is not DoD are both irrelevant.

          The fact that the Coast Guard is one of the Armed Forces, and *must* be capable of integrating with the other services overseas (particularly the Navy) means the ammo is in the system already.

          And it is (bureaucratically) much easier to expand a small, limited, use, than to establish a new one. (Thus why, for example, the Army went with the M3 Carl Gustav recently for TO&E in Big Army, rather than considering the newest version – it was already in the system for one regiment, and that infrastructure and supply chain could simply be expanded.)

          Never discount bureaucratic inertia as an acquisitions driver.

          • Joe Goins

            All the more reason to force the Coast Guard to get rid of it’s paltry .40 stockpiles and to get in line with the rest of the military.

          • Mazryonh

            What’s the chances they’ll put those stockpiles on the market as milsurp?

          • Joe Goins

            The same as Hillary going to jail.

          • Mazryonh

            Harsh. At least if they did push the .40 S&W government stockpiles onto the civilian market, the .40 S&W bullets could be reused in 10mm Auto rounds with no issues, and the brass and powder recycled.

          • Your comment doesn’t even make sense.

            Because of the Coasties, .40 S&W ammo is already in the system – if they chose to adopt it DoD wide, all they’d have to do is *buy more*. All the bureaucratic BS involved in bringing a new caliber onboard is already done.

            How does that make it “more reason” to force the USCG to abandon fairly new pistols and purchased ammo? It’s not like the fact that they use a different caliber for a low use sidearm affects anything significant. We didn’t lose wars because we had a mix of .45ACP and .38 Specials (or even .45ACP, .38 Special, *and* 9x19mm, *all at the same time*).

            Nor would would all the 9mm currently in DoD stores go to waste, if we switched the standard service caliber. It’s not like the new pistols would replace M9s overnight, and it’s not like we have no need to support poor allies who will use the 9mm for even longer, even if NATO went along with whatever caliber we might adopt.

          • Ron

            You do know that the M3 is an interim solution while DT&E for the LW M3E1 is conducted in order to get it certified for usage and they are already have a life cycle replacement plan to upgrade once the E1 is no longer an E variant

          • Wasnt aware of that. However, it doesn’t change my point. They *could* adopt it so rapidly as an “interim” solution, *because* it eas already in the system.

            Note that the M16 was *also* an “interim” system… I wouldn’t be shocked if grunts aren’t still humping the “interim” purchased M3s (albeit it with back fitted upgrades) twenty years from now.

          • Wasn’t aware of that – but it doesn’t change my point.

            They *could* rapidly adopt the M3 as “interim”, because it’s already in the system (albeit in small numbers). The acquisitions hurdles (EQTs, safety certifocation, etc.) and infrastructure hurdles (TMs, FMs, schools) at already done – these generally take *years* to complete. All they have to do is expand the purchase and infrastructure of an already approved, type classified, and qualified system, which is *way* easier and faster than starting new.

            Also note that the M16 was supposed to be an “interim” solution. I wouldn’t be at all surprised it these “interim” M3s aren’t being jumped twenty years from now (albeit it likely with some retrofitted updates, like new sights).

  • john huscio

    ” USSR had much higher level of literacy than United States during Stalin’s time.”

    Stalin: “well I slaughtered millions of political opponents, but hey, at least they could read!”

    • ComradeHX

      Having studied USSR history I can confidently say that it’s not Stalin himself that got vast majority of those people killed. Stalin only had to deal with his major political rivals(most significantly Trotsky and Bukharin). The “millions” are not necessarily Stalin’s political opponent at all, intelligensias and kulaks were very much involved(and dead).

      Face it, there was no way Stalin would know millions of people. People wanted to screw eachother over for their own benefits, party leadership that Stalin asked for namelist had to “fill a quota” or they fear they might be suspected of helping anti-communist forces; meanwhile the party can’t really do anything about it unless they were to admit the system could be wrong(creating a bigger shitstorm). If you must paint Stalin as the sole perpertrator in propaganda, then you still must acknowledge that Stalin had a lot of help, willing or unwilling.

  • STOP with the politics. Last warning—- guys

    This is about guns not ethnic debate.

  • I’ve asked that political bantering back and forth stop. Most of those involved have ignored the request to follow the TFB rules therefore further comments are blocked.

  • JASON B

    Very curious to know what the FN entry is. Even though I am a huge fan of the Five seveN, and carry one daily, I thought it strange that it was originally reported in some places that it was FN’s entrant.

  • Sasquatch

    Wow I just thought the focus was on .40 s&w or a 9mm hollow point.

  • Robert Kalani Foxworthy

    Berretta and Sig both revealed their entrants. Why can’t FN?

  • Sasquatch

    I stand corrected.

  • James Young

    Are these really the guns entered? M&P only in .40? FN only submitted one gun?

    I like that Walther and H&K are on there but can any of the more expensive guns be produced cheap enough to get the contract?

    • Qba

      Possible, because it will be the mass production of 500,000 units.

  • Kivaari

    I have nothing against the 10mm for a carbine for civilian use including police departments. There is NO “right platform” in a handgun for the 10mm pistol. I’d suggest it has NO place in LE handguns. It’s a great sporting cartridge, one of the few hunting caliber in a semi-auto.
    It has no place in the military in handgun or carbine/SMG. There is no need.
    It is fine for individuals to buy and use. People just have to understand, that they do get more power, and that translates into more recoil, slower recovery time, and more flash. None of which are good things. But with good ammo, it will put the target down.
    I like a pistol and carbine to share magazines. Lie the Beretta CX4 and PX4 set, or the CX4 and M9 combo. Great fun gun. It has no real in military settings. I can see it doing well in police cars. Beretta offers a SBR variant the MX4 with a ~10 inch tube. A nice set up.
    Using the same magazines has appeal, but the better SMGs, don’t accept pistol magazines. IF Glock made a carbine like the CX4 – MX4 I’d take one that accepts G19-17 mags. For those that like it, a10mm would be fine. The G20SF is still too large for most people.
    As I repeat, I view it from a police and military perspective, where 10mm is dead. Limited to FMJ even with a flat meplat means the wounds are not different in tissue. Hit bone, and more FPE means more broken bones.

    • Mazryonh

      Would the grip size in 10mm Auto still be a problem in a platform like the Mechtech seen above? At least you have more points of contact with the Mechtech.

      • Kivaari

        The problem isn’t when it is in a carbine format. The added stability of a buttstock and fore grip negates the issues with a handgun.
        The issue isn’t that a 10mm carbine is a bad idea for police, it has value. It has no place in a military setting when there are already adequate firearms for that role. It’s putting it into a pistol, where a large number of users can’t effectively handle any 10 mm semi-automatic. Especially so for DA systems.

        • Mazryonh

          I’m glad that we agree on something at least. Still, the H&K MP7 is close to what I’m talking about, and it’s been issued in the German Army and other military forces.

          The Mechtech has another feature to recommend it. You can attach a Glock 21 lower to a Mechtech unit chambered in 10mm Auto and it will feed 10mm Auto magazines just fine.

          I’d still like to see the look on an LEO’s face once s/he gets handed a gun about the size and shape of a Mini Uzi or B&T MP9 but with a buttstock, red dot sight, and rail-mounted foregrip, and gets told that “This gun is your new service weapon. It can hit targets at 200 yards with no appreciable ballistic drop. Try it.” That’s what fully-loaded 10mm can do.

          • Kivaari

            The problem with the Mechtech and Glocks, is there is no safety. Unlike a holstered Glock, the conversion leaves the trigger exposed on the carbine. Now, If Glock offered an optional manual safety for it, or their own carbine, I’d like it.
            Besides shotguns we issued M1/2 carbines, M94 (.30-30), AR180, MP5A2 and M4 carbines. We converted all the shotguns to rubber baton guns and did not stock lethal lead rounds for them. The guideline (SOP) directed the first officer on-scene to respond with a SMG or carbine.
            HK offered a 10mm and .40 caliber version of the MP5. Add a bolt stop to them and they would be great guns. Except for fun, having swappable magazines, like the Beretta CX4 and PX4. Fun gun. I’d be OK with it, if the pistol handled like a Glock. I finally shot mine yesterday for the first time. Beretta lies about recoil mitigation because of the rotary barrel. That’s BS. My 9mm recoils like a .45.
            It takes me about twice the time to recover between shots compared to a Glock 17 or 19.
            The CX4 has a very heavy trigger. After zeroing the iron sights, I was fatigued and could only get 3.18″ groups at 50 yards. Not good. My M4 does 1.5″ groups. I understand there are aftermarket hammers and triggers “out there”, that improve the pull. It really needs it. The PX4 works, and is accurate. The sights are crude (worse than Glock and old age added in). Gimme a CX4 that takes G19 magazines.
            The P7 would be great in a carbine. It should be easy sine the barrel doesn’t flex. NOW, that is a gun that can be left loaded completely, since it is never cocked and is on safety at all times.
            You could even use the O7-M13 for more rounds. As a pistol the M8 is the preferred size.

          • Mazryonh

            People used to think that Glock would never release a single-stack 9mm model, but then Glock released the Glock 43 handgun. So perhaps a Glock carbine (another long asked-for platform) is in the works. The Mechtech at least lets you manually lock open the breech so you can chamber a round quickly, or you could always carry with an empty chamber.

            Even with the problems you encountered with the Beretta CX4, a few US Police Departments are using it, and countries like India and Venezuela are known to have ordered it in the past.

            The H&K P7 ceased production in 2008.

            And given the video I’ve posted in this thread, there is in fact a variant of the MP5/10 that has the “last round hold open” feature.

          • Kivaari

            The CX4 (PX4 compatible) except for the heavy trigger is just fine.
            Having interchangeable magazines is OK. When issued an MP5 I didn’t care that my pistol was a Glock. If I had a pistol carbine set, I’d just prefer they share a common magazine. As long as we had other rifles spread around the patrol area, I’d get by just fine with a 9mm carbine.

          • Mazryonh

            If you use a single load for both your handgun and your carbine and the load is made to take advantage of the carbine’s longer barrel (such as a slower-burning powder to take advantage of a CX4’s 16-inch barrel) you might get an undesirable amount of flash when you use the same load out of your handgun. I’m not sure most LEO on-the-street duties require a rifle-caliber weapon either.

          • Kivaari

            I used quite a few SBR and 16″ 9mm carbines and was issued an MP5. Originally we used Federal (PBLE +P+ 115 gr. JHP. Flash with all of it was OK from handguns. Nothing to worry about in the 8.85″-10-5″ tubes. An issue arose with the (BP load. It goes TOO FAST in the MP5. Expansion was too quick. We switched to Speer Gold Dot (IIRC 124 o 129 gr.). No issues.
            Most of my patrol time was spent with the MP5. WE did go to M4s in my last year 2001-’02. They are OK. The controls are better than the HK.

          • Mazryonh

            If people like the AR-15 controls so much, it does raise the question of why the Colt SMG (or other pistol-caliber AR-15s with select-fire capability) never took off.

            Anyway, the case remains that magnum pistol calibers have more to gain from the increased barrel length of a carbine or SMG. That’s why Lever-Action Carbines in magnum pistol calibers have been popular for so long.

            This thread has been going on for so long, I wouldn’t mind contacting you by e-mail to discuss your experiences further.

          • Kivaari

            The Colt didn’t catch on for a couple reasons. It IS as BIG as the M4 carbine. The 9mm recoils more or “differently”, than the 5.56mm. Odd, isn’t it. Now look around and there are several AR-lower SMGs.
            The SIG profiled earlier, where a gas operated system is used. Notice the is very little recoil. Like the MP5 with the roller locked delay, recoil is less than the Colt.
            The newer dedicated AR-SMG lowers will bring a revival.

          • Mazryonh

            Odd that Colt didn’t capitalize on the greater compactness possible with an SMG by giving their Colt SMG model a folding stock, at least. Even H&K gave their MP5s a last-round-bolt-open feature with their 10mm version. But as you say, newer cycling systems are allowing for less recoil for SMGs now.

          • Kivaari

            Colt used the M4 stock. They needed the buffer tube since it is just an unlocked AR-style BCG.

          • Kivaari

            It looks like my response did not get to you. The Colt SMG, being straight blow back, recoils more than the HK MP5 or SIG MPX. With many new dedicated AR-SMG lowers I think you will see them become more popular. The SIG’s locked breech is a great idea. Work the bolt on one compared to the Colt 9mm, and it is obvious the SIG system is better. Not simpler, but better.

          • Kivaari

            Encountering body armor is more common today. We trained to defeat it over 40 years ago. The 2 to the chest, if the threat remains, he has armor, go for the head. 10mm should be easy to stop. The better the JHP the easier to stop.