The Dangers Of Skipping Bullets

Kyle lamb

5.11 and Kyle Lamb talk about a possibility where taking cover behind the V of the car can be dangerous if not using all the cover available. Bullets can skip off the hood of a car and hit a target in the thoracic cavity. So you are best to lower yourself and decrease the amount of exposure to ricochets.



Nicholas C

Co-Founder of KRISSTALK forums, an owner’s support group and all things KRISS Vector related. Nick found his passion through competitive shooting while living in NY. He participates in USPSA and 3Gun. He loves all things that shoots and flashlights. Really really bright flashlights.

Any questions please email him at nicholas.c@staff.thefirearmblog.com


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  • Anonymoose

    Where is the grenade launcher? I was promised a 40mm bullpup grenade launcher!

    • Twilight sparkle

      40 MM bullpup grenade launcher you say?

      • Nicks87

        Oh my… Is that thing real?

        • Twilight sparkle

          It was supposed to be developed to a marketing stage but I don’t think anyone ever bought it.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Wow, 5 shot mag? A lot of weight to carry for 5 shots. But damn, from a static zone you’re protecting with a lot of preloaded mags. Talk about raining hell down on the insurgents.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    A cop friend of mine told me they were trained to stay a few inches away from the walls in a concrete or tile walled hallway because bullets fired at an angle will develop forward spin and continue forward parallel to the wall at lethal speed.

    • Paul Joly

      Pretty much any fmj impact do that.

      • Nicks87

        HPs will do it too. I think it has more to do with physics than type of bullet.

        • Kivaari

          Yep. It is like armor piercing canon rounds. Before HEAT and very high velocity kinetic darts, projectiles often had a small sharpened tip (biting edge)that would “bite” into the steel. Without that they would glance off much easier.

    • USMC03Vet

      We were also taught this in the military.

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        I was taught to take off and nuke the site from orbit.

        • USMC03Vet

          Game over, man. Game over.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            “We’re f-cked, man! We’re doomed!”

            Bill Paxton should have gotten an Oscar for that.

          • patrickkell

            why don’t you put her in charge.

          • Kivaari

            What film was that in? It’s sounds like an Oscar winning film – or not.

          • TheNotoriousIUD

            Aliens

          • Kivaari

            Now, I remember.

          • Secundius

            Aliens II

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Aliens no II

          • Secundius

            Bill Paxton was the Actor, Pvt Hudson. He Appeared in ONLY ONE Alien Movie, the Second…

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            First movie: Alien
            Second movie : Aliens
            My point is that there is no “II”, “2”, or etc

          • Secundius

            I Bought the ALIENS Collector Set. Each DVD Case were Marked in the Order They Were Made: I, II, III, etc…

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, Your are wrong about the name of the movie. Get over it. You bought a special ed box set that numbers the dad’s.

            Aliens (1986) – IMDb
            IMDb › title
            Rating: 8.4/10 – ‎476,647 votes
            Mobile-friendly – Directed by James Cameron. With Sigourney Weaver, Michael Biehn, Carrie Henn, Paul Reiser. The planet from Alien

            Notice the lack of anything?

          • Secundius

            What! You Have “Scheuklappen” or Something. To be STUCK on ONE Subject ONLY…

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Says the guy who kept replying that he was correct when he was demonstrably wrong

          • Secundius

            I’m Try to Move On, but the Boat Anchor (YOU) Won’t Let Go of the Deeply Embedded Rocks…

        • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          That’s a sound plan unless you take the queen with you

    • iksnilol

      I was also taught to remain about a meter away from cover in case of bullet skipping.

      I am not a soldier or cop tho.

      • Nicks87

        Yep that’s a good rule of thumb. No need to be right up against your cover, just keep it between you and the threat.

        • iksnilol

          I was also taught that you can shot the wall in front of somebody instead of trying to get an accurate shot at the person itself if they’re peeking out from a wall. The debris/bullet skipping along the wall will hit them (if they’re close to the wall).

          • Kivaari

            Window glass will do it as well.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            And I was taught to fire 00 buckshot right in front of the car underside and it would hit the person hiding behind it on the other side.

          • Kivaari

            Watch the old FBU video one fellow shooter posted. It is an absolute classic. Every technique they showed was what was taught at the academy in 1971. Today is seems pretty silly stuff, but at the time it’s how the FBI trained police. As I said elsewhere, our students seemed to know more about police combat shooting than the FBI agents doing the training. We did learn that even the lowly .38 Special 148 gr. HBWC load was effective. Three tribal police had shot bad guys with that load. All were one-shot-stops.

          • iksnilol

            HBWC?

            What kinda wadcutter is that? Sounds formidable.

          • Kivaari

            That is simply the hollow base wad cutter. The bullet is longer than the solid WC bullets, giving it more bearing surface and thus less likely to have a yaw. They can be extremely accurate. Most driven by 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Puff loads with a flat front that cuts clean holes, but also cutting nerves and blood vessels. The two ways to down a bad guy is to shut down nerves and blood flow.

          • iksnilol

            Ah, I see.

            I know wadcutters are in general nothing to mess around with. Simply because they actually cut a hole of their caliber, instead of pushing tissue aside.

            Kinda funny they were made with such an innocent purpose in mind (easier scoring).

      • Kivaari

        Bad guys bullets coming your way don’t care if you are a warrior or not.

        • iksnilol

          Good point.

          I always found the whole “warrior-culture” to be a bit cringy.

    • whskee

      I was trained to stay off a few feet or more when possible. In addition to skipping and traveling down the wall, you get spall/debris kicked up enough to hurt. Concrete dust and particulate in the face might not kill you but it can certainly blind or distract you enough to get you dead soon.

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        Makes sense.

    • Vladimir Putin

      If you have a shallow enough angle it works every time, It was a tactic we verified
      and used several times to eliminate hajji’s that shoot and duck around the corner of a building. They would usually take turns popping out and shooting to prove their bravery, well number two and three seldom lived to be admired

  • Nicks87

    Most of us LE folks quit “crowding the V” a long time ago. The only real cover that an un-armored vehicle provides is the engine block and depending on what type of vehicle it is, the engine block might not provide much cover at all. I don’t know where Sgt. Lamb is coming from when he states that vehicles will stop bullets. I think that’s an irresponsible statement. Most rifle rounds will turn a vehicle into swiss cheese and a plenty of pistol rounds will too.

    • Twilight sparkle

      Most cops aren’t going to have to face rifles, a vehicles door does a lot more stopping than air and even then cops usually wear body armour so a door is likely to help slow things down so that the body armour can catch them. The bottom mine is that a door is better than nothing

      • Nicks87

        I wouldn’t count on any of that. My best advice would be to keep moving. The worst thing you could do in a gun fight is to root yourself behind something that may or may not provide cover.

        • Kivaari

          That is why they teach cover v. concealment.

        • Twilight sparkle

          So keep moving and have nothing between you and the perp but air? Sometimes all you have is a door, if it’s the only thing available to me then I’m gonna use it.

        • Nigel Tolley

          Police have to engage the threat. Or at the least attempt to contain it. And without getting shot.
          Where are they going to “keep moving” to, exactly?

          • Kivaari

            Police need to survive the encounter so they can try to solve the problem.

          • Nigel Tolley

            Running away from someone actually shooting at you is about the worst thing you can do. Retreat with covering fire, have someone else lay down covering fire, get behind cover and wait until they reload – pretty much anything other than give them a clear and relaxed shot into your back while they are engaged with you!

          • Kivaari

            Well, Is running to cover a bad thing? Do you always have a partner to lay down covering fire? Do you have a chance to fire and move? Who suggested running with your back to the threat? Increasing distance between the threat an the target (that’s you) may do more than moving in deeper in the kill zone. Since each case is unique I’d suggest the good guy thinks on his-her feet and that MAY include running. Again, that doesn’t mean you turn your back on the suspect. If you don’t have a safe place to run to, it may require you move toward the suspect(s). Chances are the good guy, even wearing good body armor will get blasted with the end result being a nice funeral. Tombstone courage doesn’t always work out well. The only time I would suggest turning your back on a suspect is when you have adequate backup that is onboard with your move. I don’t like the tactic of walking backwards while shooting. You MAY have to do so. But, that move can lead to falling on your butt, leaving you more vulnerable.
            Running away is sometimes recommended for civilians, since creating distance improves your chances of not being hit. Like with knife attacks, creating distance and adding barriers between you and the attacker increases your odds of not getting stuck.

          • Kivaari

            The cops move to what appears to be a more advantageous position. If you are in a living room your options are limited. If you are on a street doing a traffic stop, it might mean moving behind your car, a light pole, a retaining wall or behind concealment knowing bullets go through it, but it limits the suspects ability to see you. You could also, move into the threat using as much firepower you can reasonably deliver. It gets much more confused if you have more than one suspect that is trying to kill you. The “street” offers quite a few options, and everyone needs to be aware of those places. MOST shootings last no more than a few seconds. When they go longer, you need to really think fast. There is always a chance that no matter what you TRY to do, fails to save you from your adversary.

      • Jeremy Star

        Most pistol calibers will pass through a car door without much issue. Your safety glass windshield is actually more likely to effect the bullets trajectory than your car door. (Unless you drive a really old car with actual steel doors.)

        • Kivaari

          Some cars used a side impact crash bar. They were usually only 8 to 12 inches top to bottom, and the length of the door. Not much cover unless it is angled as shown. Just about anything will deflect a bullet if the angle of attack isn’t perpendicular.

        • Badwolf

          So it’s a Yes to 1 car door. Will it go through 2? Anyone tested this?

          • Jeremy Star

            Yes, a pistol caliber bullet will pass through both sides of your car and hit something on the other side with no problem as long as you don’t hit a seat or someone sitting inside.

          • Badwolf

            Good to know. Thanks for the info!

        • Twilight sparkle

          They’ll pass through but they’ll have considerably less energy. You’d also be using the concealment of the v from the door frame which is considerably thicker than the rest of the door.

          • Kivaari

            It is enough that Texas DPS switched from the poor performing .45 and adopted the .357 SIG.

          • Jeremy Star

            The door won’t bleed enough energy from the bullet to stop it from doing severe damage to you.

          • Twilight sparkle

            It’s still better than nothing if you find yourself in a bad situation. Plus it’ll give the officers body armour a better chance of working.

        • Nigel Tolley

          Why are people talking about the door as cover? Note how the car is pulled up so the engine and bonnet are between the shooter and the, er, other shooter. That puts the maximum metal in between them, and the car door is merely an extra bit that might help, & offers concealment.

          Do US cops have soft/hard armour in their door panels? UK specialist firearms vehicles do.

          • Kivaari

            It’s better than air. Few police vehicles have any added armor. It’s costly and cars don’t last that long.

          • Kivaari

            There is another reason as well. The angled and offset position of the patrol car helps during a traffic stop where the officer needs to approach the offenders car. If the patrol car is rear ended it is hoped it will not run over the cop. Second, if the more common sideswipe in involved the angled patrol car deflects the striking vehicle away form the dismounted officer. It is one of the biggest way cops are killed. It is why you will see so many cops approach on the passengers side. Some drivers suffering from HUAS will plow into the back of patrol cars or fire trucks with all the emergency lighting going and rows of flares burning. I know f one former trooper that was hit 3 times. Too bad he wasn’t killed. He turned out to be a serial child rapist. Another trooper was nearly run down at such a crash scene and as the driver passed him he stuck a lighted flare into the trunk lid. The driver stopped and jumped out and demanded to know why he did that. Well, the trooper pointed to all the commotion around them, and it was the first time the driver saw it. Another trooper on a traffic stop was struck. The offender waiting for her ticket jumped out ran to the patrol car and screamed into toe radio that the trooper had just disappeared. The suspect had to use his windshield wipers to clear the blood off so he could see the road. He went through a roadblock and another trooper threw a lighted flare into the bed of the suspects truck bed. They were able to follow him until he stopped in a field. When contacted he “didn’t remember a thing”. That’s why cops do that since more are hit by drunks than shot. Sorry it is long winded, but I remember those as a couple were family members – except for “Uncle Jack”, the dirt bag.

        • Lt_Scrounge

          Even then it isn’t the wheels that stop bullets, it’s the brake rotors or drums. They tend to be heavy steel.

          • Kivaari

            Modern vehicle tires will stop many handgun bullets and buckshot. Remember the first use of Kevlar was in car tires. The Kevlar replaced steel belts in those new “steel belted radial tires”. Kevlar did not overheat as fast as wire. The DuPont engineering staff did a good thing for the world.

          • Lt_Scrounge

            That’s IF people are shooting at the tread of a tire. I don’t know about you, but I’m a bit too wide to hide behind a tire tread, unless of course it’s for a Terex Titan or similar vehicle. On a Terex Titan tire, I could climb up a couple of feet and use it like an armored barricade.

            They talk about the North Hollywood shoot out gunmen wearing body armor. What they seldom mention is that it was made from strips of cut off tire treads.

          • Kivaari

            Well that’s assuming the shot is from the side. If so there’s a 4-6 inch donut between the tread and wheel. that’s after it gets through all the steering mechanism and engine parts between the front wheels. In the rear there’s the rear end and often a gas tank.
            With a shot like the video, the “window” without belts and rubber is there if they miss the tire. Going through sheet metal or running the risks posed by Lamb. The glancing shots are pretty hard to avoid.
            Perhaps the best defense is shoot fast and accurate, before the other guy does.

          • Secundius

            Some Airplane Tires that have Air Pressures Exceeding 100psi. Are Virtually Impossible to Blow Out with A Handgun. Bullets will Just Bounce Off…

          • Lt_Scrounge

            Look at the one gunfight that Wild Bill Hickok was in. The other guy drew his pistol and tried to point shoot Hickok at over 25 yards. He emptied his pistol without a hit. While he was reloading, Hickok took one aimed shot with his 1853 Navy revolver and killed the guy. Getting the first shot off is nice, but getting the first solid hit is more important.

            As for the gas tank, I don’t think that I’d particularly like the idea of having 10 – 20 gallons of gasoline between me and a bullet. Or worse a nearly empty tank full of gas fumes. Even if the tank itself doesn’t go *Boom*, firing back through the fumes that will result from the tank being ruptured and pouring gas onto the ground would not be anything that I would care to experience.

      • Kivaari

        When cops come up against rifle fire it usually doesn’t end well. Rifles of all types are not common in murders. More people are murdered with hammers than rifles.

        • Twilight sparkle

          Does that not correlate with what I just said? You’re preaching to the choir dude…

          • Kivaari

            I feel like I just had my ass chewed for agreeing with you.

          • Twilight sparkle

            Sorry, I just got irritated by the amount of people that didn’t get the point of training in that position

    • Phil Hsueh

      I once read that the place to be, when shooting from a car, is actually inside the car, behind the A pillar shooting from between the A pillar and the door.

      • CommonSense23

        That sounds like a horrible place to be.

        • Phil Hsueh

          Not my idea, just something I read a long time ago.

      • Kivaari

        Wheels and tires help to a degree. Especially if the other guy is using a shotgun or handgun. Our chief gave us a little test one day asking about using the trunk area. I wrote that it works if you have it heavily loaded with tough equipment or a pile of body armor. Yes, I passed.

      • Kivaari

        Now many cars have air bag inflators having pressed gun powder-like fuel. Cars have many new dangerous areas of concern.

    • jng1226

      Unless you’ve been to his classes then you can’t really understand what he’s teaching from the short statement he made in the video. He’s been teaching LE/MIL proven tactics and techniques from his elite service about longer than any other “name” trainer around, and would be the last person to spread non-truths. BTW, it’s SGM Lamb.

  • Gorilla Biscuit

    It would be interesting to see how much velocity is retained after plowing through the hood. Certainly a lot of variables in play here.

    • Scott Jeffery

      I had a crew shooting 22 long rifle through both a Dodge and Chev pickup dropped at a gravel pit near where we worked. I say through because 22 long rifle from a Ruger takedown penetrated both doors, or the hood and dash (both), and either fender. One guy rattled through the air cleaner and fender. It was only the engine that stopped rounds. I did not let anyone fire at the wheels because of the danger of a return ricochet. We were all shocked at the bullets penetration after watching too many TV shows. If the vehicles were closer I would post pictures.

      • Kivaari

        I want some of that TV ammo that blows cars up with huge fireballs and all the sparks. It has to be real, it’s on TV and You Tube.

        • nicholsda

          .30-06API is what you want. Hit a gas tank and Kaboom.

          • Kivaari

            I’ve done that, and it pokes a hole and leaks out. Tracers SOMETIMES work.

          • nicholsda

            Metal tanks only. Plastic ones will do as you say. If you shot the saddle tanks that were in our 73 F100, they would light off the tank as they were 1/4″ steel. And so would steel and galvanized tanks of older vehicles.

          • jcitizen

            Fuel vapor works better – sometimes an empty tank is more dangerous that a full one.

          • Kivaari

            Yes!! The 24 gallon gas tank with air and a tea cup of gasoline is much more dangerous than a full tank. Now, is when you can see a genuine blast.

  • Neat video, I’m curious if the rounds would still deflect off of an aluminum hood in a similar way.

    • M.M.D.C.

      My neighbor has a new Ford pickup. Want me to find out?

      • Kivaari

        Chevy’s and Ford’s have redeeming social value. If it was a Dodge it wouldn’t matter, so fire away.

        • nicholsda

          😀

    • Kivaari

      Aluminum or carbon fiber would do the same. As long as the angle of attack is shallow and thing will send the bullet glancing off.

  • Don Ward

    Or, you know instead of worrying about trick shots, you might not want to stand straight up because your opponent shooting at you just might… now call me crazy… shoot you.

    • netPIMP

      you’re crazy… (just doing what I’m told)

    • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      Have you seen how these guys shoot these days?
      LOL

  • MarkVShaney

    From where I’m sitting it looked like a “skipped bullet” would have hit him on the face if he were crouched there.

  • Kivaari

    The natural instinct to go to ground gets people killed. It’s hard to overcome that instinct. The intermediary substance being hit by bullets doesn’t have to be hard like steel, brick or stone. Any substance denser than air can lead to glancing bullets. Common dirt and water will deflect bullets. Getting “something” that can stop or deflect bullets at another angle will save lives. The danger does go both ways. Don’t hug the ground or walls. During the infamous FBI Miami shootout shows how FBI bullets struck the mobile suspect in the feet. Those wounds were significant in turning the tide against the killer. 00-Buck to his feet change the battle dynamics.

    • All the Raindrops

      Didn’t he have armor virtually everywhere else?

      • Kivaari

        No. The two suspects in the North Hollywood Shootout were wrapped in armor. I’ll dig out the book about Miami, but from memory no one had armor on. One suspect was able to only fire one round from a shotgun and was hit in the arm cutting the blood vessels and nerves controlling his arm. It became useless. He also took a hit to the side of his head that stopped the slug. The primary shooter took hits through his arm and into his chest within an inch or so of his heart. He bled out more blood and lasted longer than most men could, and was able to inflict tremendous damage on the agents. There is a good book, by child rapist Dr. Smith, that included a detailed report on the shooting, including autopsy photos and data on the two bad guys. The agents really did screw up, failing to do what we considered basic procedures in small town America.
        When I did the academy in 1971 the FBI ran the course. Most of us felt they were about 5 years behind local LEOs, even we newer guys. Back then you got called “Super Chicken” if you wore Second Chance body armor. Agents were still telling us to shoot one handed and put your other arm across your chest to absorb incoming fire. Two handed shooting from a “combat crouch” without using sights was the technique they wanted to teach us. Many of us ignored them after we passed the class. One of our newby candidates was a former California cop that was in his 40s. He had left California after killing two men, while standing astride his Harley. They pulled into a cul-de-sac, jumped out and started shooting at Les. Les, stood up, used both hands and his front sight, and quickly dispatched the robbers. He suggested that we ignore the FBI guys. Over the years we found them behind the rest of us by about “5 years”. At least that is how we viewed them. I know the lagged behind in the use of the MP5SF (single fire). I’d done an article 5 years before they adopted them.

        • FYI: The name of the author was Dr. W. French Anderson. At last check, he is still in prison.

          • Kivaari

            Thanks. As I said it was from memory. I actually thought I had written French and not Smith. Where Smith came from eludes me. He should remain in prison. Better yet he should not have been a pervert.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Wow, so he was a child rapist. I’ll have to see if the library has his book. Not sure I want to give money to a child rapist

          • Kivaari

            The book was available from the International Wound Ballistics Association. I was a member and it was very inexpensive. But, that was perhaps 20 years ago.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It’s 38 on Amazon. I hate myself but I ordered it anyway

          • Kivaari

            It’s worth it. You will see the agents shooting wasn’t all that bad, just their tactics.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I was on the phone with Bumblebee Wholesale when the police called for ARs doing the bad robbers in CA. Funny how you remember things like that.

          • Secundius

            Was or is this the Book by Frank “Jellybean” Nash?

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            As stated above
            FYI: The name of the author was Dr. W. French Anderson. At last check, he is still in prison.

          • Secundius

            I was referring to the .38Spc. Ballistics Book…

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            My apologies

          • Kivaari

            Dr. W. French Anderson as Mr. Watters pointed out above. It is well presented with color plates of the wounds, good crime scene drawings and photos.

          • Secundius

            Thanks…

          • Paladin Press currently publishes it.

  • BrandonAKsALot

    Really? I’m the first?

    Your mom has a problem with men crowding the V.

    And I’m done.

  • Kafir1911

    A real biggie with that car as cover is staying behind the tires and engine block if at all possible. Bullets hitting pavement can skip right under a car and take out feet and lower legs.

    • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      I was taught to skip 00Buck under the car. Hiding behind sheet metal is not the best plan

  • mossbergman

    even a 9mm will shoot thru a car the only safe cover behind a car is where the engine block give you protection .oddly that wasn’t even mentioned

    • Nathan Alred

      That 9 (or .40 or .45) won’t shoot through car doors as reliably as you think.

      I just finished working on a 2015 Camaro – pretty lightweight car with lots of aluminum – that had 18 9mm +P shots into the right door. Only THREE of the 18 made it all the through into the passenger compartment. Almost all of the shots were close to perpendicular to the surface, from a max range of 20 yards.

      • nicholsda

        JHP, maybe not. FMJ is what is going to go thru. In tests, JHP 9mm skipped right off of windshields. It took FMJ ammo to go thru it. And even with 9mm it was iffy. .40S&W and .45ACP FMJ had far better results.

        Now when you get to .30-06AP/API rounds, even an engine block is not worth much. But most police firefights are .223/5.56mm or handgun rounds.

        • Kivaari

          Almost nothing short of anti-tank rounds will pass through an engine.

          • nicholsda

            With today’s engines, many are made of Al and mounted crosswise. So the placement makes a difference as does the material they are made of. A Cast Iron block will do far better at stopping a round compared to an Aluminum one. Even worse, the Al may have a mix of Magnesium in it. BMW is one maker known to use it.

          • Secundius

            NOT Even an Anti-Tank Round! But Then Again, if ti Comes to that YOUR ALREADY DEAD…

      • Kivaari

        Did they hit the “crash bar”?

      • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        I’d love to know what kind of ammo and what it hit besides the sheet metal

  • OldGringo

    The Air Force Special Ops School teaches that bullets will richochet off walls and pavement at about 6-15 degrees depending on the angle of impact. I saw one of their guys shoot the pavement in front of a gallon jug of water and the jug exploded…..it was a 7mm mag at 200 yards…they do it for every class. They also taught us to shoot the pavement about 10 feet in front of a car if the bad guy was hiding behind a car….the bullets skip under the car and hopefully will hit a foot…..I have dont the demonstration many times with handguns and paper targets….and you can actually shoot pretty good groups after you get the hang of it….as for Kyle, he is the real deal and just making money off his training, just like you or I might make off our college degree or other training…..and as far as cars…everything with ball shoots thru car doors and the only 2 safe places behind one is the engine block or maybe down low with the rear tires exactly between you and the bad guy….we were taught never to stick your head up from behind a car, to peak around the front or rear or lay down and shoot totally under the car….FWIW

  • OldGringo

    I said Kyle, my bad, I meant Lamb..

  • Secundius

    Common Practice by the Royal Navy during the 18th Century. By “Skip Shooting” a Cannon Ball across the Sea (like Flat Stone on a Pond). You can actually Double the Range of the Projectile. The Only Draw-Back being, with Every Skip the Velocity Decreases and the Kinetic Energy Produce at Impact is Substantially Less than a Near Ballistic Trajectory Impact…

  • ciscokid3750

    I remember years ago reading an article in a magazine about a guy who was shooting at tin cans on the water with a .303 Enfield and the bullet skipped and went over a mile and killed a young girl driving down the freeway who was in her car. At first the doctors could not figure out what killed her until they looked behind her ear and saw the bullet hole. Later they did catch the guy who fired the rifle.

  • spydersniper

    When I went through Coast Guard small arms training school back in 1982, we had an FBI agent come to.the school to give us class. We had a 30 ft tall revetment that had a concrete wall on one side. He put 4 balloons at one end of the wall, then took up position at about 30%at the opposite end. Now these balloons were only about 8 inches around. He fired and hit about 12 inches from the opposite end of the balloons, and all 4 bullets travelled the 30 foot distance and destroyed all 4 balloons. So they travelled 30 ft. At less than 8 inches off the wall. So we learned that if we are going to use our patrol cars as cover in a gunfight, you need to be behind the your wheels, preferably the front wheels and engine, that will prevent getting hit with the skip.

    • Secundius

      Same with a Tank! The Weakest Part of the Tank are the Egress/Ingress Hatches and the Escape Hatch Under the Tank. WW2 Fighter Pilots Skip Shot .50-Caliber AP Rounds Under the Tank to Penetrate the Escape Hatch. To Gun Camera Photo You See of a Tank Being Destroyed by a Fighter, ISN’T “Poor Quality” Camera Film. But the Skipping of the .50 AP Ammo “Finding Home” Under the Tank…

      • jcitizen

        Yep! That’s what my buddy Lt. Kuhlmann did with his P-47, and we have a lot of gun camera footage he took that might just prove it too.

  • Kivaari

    Wow, that brings back memories. I had patrol cars like those. In 1971 our FBI instructors used all of those techniques to “train” us. It was behind the times then, and is obviously radically wrong by todays standards. Except for the missing arm across the chest to stop incoming fire all of those positions were “by the book”. We have come a long way, and because of improved tactics, better holsters and boy armor we only have about half of the deaths than in the late 60s and early 70s. Hoyt holsters were the best retention rig around.

    • jcitizen

      Our FBI course training was 5 years behind this video, and we were doing it in 1975! However our Utah and Cooper assault course was more realistic, and still reflects tactics used today – We did the same thing as far as the “V” on vehicles, but avoided putting our head in the middle of it. We had so many seconds to unlock our shotgun from the mount, unlatch seat belts and get into defensive position and fire on target. It is a wonder we didn’t put some holes in those Plymouth Satellites, almost exactly like the ones in the video! HA!

      • Kivaari

        The only gear we didn’t have to buy were flashlight batteries. I marveled that my gun belt set up cost $330 including a S&W M66.
        At the academy I don’t think any of the class members thought much about the FBI instructors. We see to this day the FBI repeatedly screws up. Just this year during the shooting of the Oregon nut case, the Oregon troopers killed him, and FBI agents shot into the vehicle, and tried to cover it up. FBI agents have a reputation for shooting when not justified and then in a Nixonian fashion try to cover it up.

        • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          Wow, was that 30 years ago?

          • Kivaari

            Over 40. I came home from Vietnam in August ’70 and was working that same night as a deputy sheriff. In November the city was formed and 5 of us were sworn in as the first actual city cops. It was long ago and not all that pleasant. Small town politics was nasty. I helped bring down a corrupt city government. No good deed goes unpunished – and it still pisses me off. The only people likely to stick you in the back with more force are firemen with a union.

          • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Thanks for your service to the country, county and for clearing the corrupt SOBS out. Yes, they do their best to get even.

    • Billca

      Remember things were very slow to change in the early 70s. The field was still digesting the Newhall incident and trying to develop improved tactics to deal with increasing threats, all in an era before body armor was widely available. We saw the training films as a way to demonstrate basic techniques for the neophytes who weren’t gun savvy.

      • Kivaari

        I bought a Second Chance vest when they had saved 30 lives. I was called Super Chicken for buying it. Back then $65 was a lot of money. The things didn’t even have washable covers, just Kevlar with straps sewn on. I shot a test swatch and the .357 load came out the back about 6 inches wrapped in a Kevlar ball. A surgeon would just have to grab ahold of the vest and give it a yank to remove the bullet. After that, I started carrying .38 Specials again. That was actually a smart move, as I could actually hit faster and more accurately. Hitting well with less is better than missing with more. Same thing many years later when I convinced my new chief that using a 9mm was better than .45. After most of the guys couldn’t qualify on a night shoot.

        • Billca

          I went with the Safariland Centurion vest. I know what you mean about no carriers. Elastic straps & Velcro sewn right on to the Kevlar vest that was about 1¼” thick. Not a lot of fun on a hot summer evening, especially after a foot chase! There was a long list of “Don’t” items regarding washing it so I’d just wash it in plain cool water and a half teaspoon of Ivory soap, rinse well, squeeze out the water and hang it to dry all weekend. Surprised it never grew mold!

          • Secundius

            Kevlar is Mold Resistant and WON’T “Rot” Either. You could Bury it for a Hundred Years and your Great Grandchildren can Dig It Up a Find a Near New “Dirty” Kevlar Vest…

          • Billca

            Mold won’t grow on the Kevlar itself, but after months of wearing it there was plenty of organic material for it to feed off of! Sweat, body oils and skin tissues for instance. At least until I figured out a way to wash it that wouldn’t damage the vest and would allow it to dry over a weekend.

          • Secundius

            Level One, protection on US Naval Ship’s is 2-1/2-inch (~64mm) Thick of Kevlar K129. Probably a Good Thing Inside Door Panels and Under Hood Applications. Or ALON (Al2O3) “Aluminum Oxynitride (aka Transparent Aluminum) ~1.618-inches (~41.1mm) will Stop a .50-caliber (12.7x99mmR/BMG) AP Round at “POINT-BLANK” Range. NO JOKE…

          • Kivaari

            It certainly was another time. Many cops were resistant to change and viewed much of the new gear as unneeded. They were of the school where everything could be handled with a sap, baton, sap-gloves or gun. Police work has changed primarily with the ability to access data faster. Many people slipped through our hands because it took too long to create a paper strip for the teletype machines. Then at the states central records a manual search could give you an answer the next day.

          • Billca

            The biggest positives in equipment was when we finally received HT’s you could carry on your belt comfortably and had the remote microphones on your shoulder. No more being out of contact while away from your car. Sometimes new gear was a source of amusement. Nothing beats wrestling a guy into custody just as your Lt. arrives to put the perp in your car for you unless it’s backing up over the can of mace you lost in the fight and having it empty onto the Lt.’s car.

  • Kivaari

    Thanks for digging up that history for us.

    • Billca

      LOL. Sure thing. Sure miss driving those big roomy Mopars though!

      • Kivaari

        Did you ever bottom one out at high speed? It breaks the exhaust manifolds. I clipped a piece of pipe in a clump of grass. I had a puking drunk in the back seat while we put it on a lift at a gas station. I sounded like a tank as I drove the drunk to jail 40 miles away. The chief was pissed. I lost a days pay.

        • Billca

          Can’t claim that experience. The 73 Polaras with 440s were replaced with Dodge Coronets in 76. Fuel economy was an issue for a small town PD. Mopar required you to buy a minimum of 5 cars for fleet pricing and a minimum of 8 for special-order as I remember. We partnered with another agency to upgrade the Coronet’s 318 to the E58 360 police motor. Saved about 13% on fuel the first year and still had good power. The motor was a good match to the 3800 pound Coronet which was about 550 pounds lighter than the Polaras. I think a 340 wedge would have been better (240 HP vs. 220) with the lighter engine.

          • Kivaari

            We did that change a couple years earlier. We bought them on “state bid” where any government in the state could get the lower price negotiated by the state. The Dodge and Plymouth cars with torsion bar suspension were excellent handling cars, until the bars lost strength. They could only be re-torqued a few times. The front ends started sagging in short order. We had a sports car rally in town. I used the patrol car and got very good times.

  • jcitizen

    The soft steel jackets on Com/Bloc ammo put up so much sparks hitting rail bed rock, you’d swear it caused an explosion. I used to shoot at the rail bed when I was a kid, just testing the rails, which I knew would be unscratched. I shot a section of rail steel that was being used as an anvil on a farm with M2 .30 cal. ammo exactly like the vintage in the film. and it went clear through the top ‘tee’ of the rail section. I don’t know how hard rails are, but they went through them like butter, so I was pretty impressed as a kid! The ammo was a scarce find for me, so I made sure I hit it, at close range with no misses, at about 15 feet. I’d have backed off to 100 meters, if I trusted my shooting ability, and the unfamiliar Browning lever rifle I was using.

    • Secundius

      Depends on Make, Model and Manufacturer. But Ball Park Estimate between 820 to 980 MPa Tensile Strength…

      • jcitizen

        I figured it couldn’t be too soft or the wear and tear would get to them before the maintenance cycle came up. They generally don’t replace rails around here in whole sale fashion, but once every decade or so. Spot repairs are more often of course.

        • Secundius

          Service Vehicle’s are Built to a Different Standard, the Domestic Use Vehicles. Most American Domestic Vehicles are rated at 100,000-miles before a Major Failure. Service Vehicle’s ~250,000-miles, THAT’S why Cab Companies Buy Them…

  • Shocked_and_Amazed✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

    Thanks