MP5 Run And Gun: Perfection Since 1964

The Heckler and Koch MP5 is now 52 years old, and is not yet showing its age. The humble little submachinegun can be found all over the world and employed in many different situations, but why is it so prolific?
Well, the answer is actually quite simple: It’s the best there is.

Big thanks to Ventura Munitions as always!
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Alex C.

Alex is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Director of TFBTV.


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  • AlmightySatan

    Too bad the ATF has made this so difficult to own.

    • Kivaari

      It wasn’t the ATF, it was congress – both parties – and FDR signing the law into effect. ATF does love enforcing nit picking little errors. Ten the GCA ’68 added more crap followed with that infamous May ’86 law stopping the new transfer of the guns we want.
      A new congress and a new president could repeal all of those terrible laws. Chances are it will never happen. Even if republicans had super-majorities in both house and the oval office, we don’t have enough votes to make it happen.
      Before that we need universal concealed carry restored to everyone in the nation that can lawfully own firearms. It should be simple check mark on a drivers license or state ID that shows you do not have restrictions. Not a permit for guns, just a “I am not prohibited” because I am crazy or a recently paroled ax murderer.

  • Bart

    It is a classic for a reason.
    I wish we could have subguns in this country. Dang NFA

  • toms

    The MP5 is a great gun. The MPX is probably not even in the same league except that the trigger on the MP5 is not that great when compared to the MPX’s ability AR trigger group. The MP5 is just a super smooth, accurate reliable full auto gun to shoot. My favorite version is the SD by far. The MPX has had teething problems and my faith in SIG fell many years ago. They produce some real lemon guns nowadays.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Why did you waste the first three mags on semi auto??

    • All run and gun videos are done in semi so we can compare them against the other guns we have done it with.
      I have decided that for full auto guns, the full auto run will be a single mag in the fashion you saw in this video.

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        You should do three FA and one SA.

      • Kivaari

        We were required to fire the course with the gun on FA, but we had to be quick on the trigger, so no FA rounds left the gun. The idea being to instill the control. The MP5 has a slow rate of fire making it doable. Part of the training involved the gun being left unassembled at the 25 yard line. We would run from 50 yards to 25, reassemble the gun and then fire the expected number of targets. That also increased operator skill.

    • Dave

      HKMP5SF is common among European police agencies. Some MP5s in U.S. PD use actually had a special selector making the giggle switch manipulation difficult to ensure it was only done very deliberately–lawyers!

      In the 1980s, the FBI had MP5SF subcarbines available for field agents.

  • Lance

    I agree with you 100%. MP-5 is beter offers more options and configurations than SIG. SOCOM still uses MP-5s no unit in US or NATO uses the SIG. I do now SIG lovers will try to be mean to you Alex but you hold the truth. MP5s will be around for much longer than the latest tacti cool others hear state.

    PS try a run and gun on the only affordable MP-5 style carbine the GSG-5 be interesting what you come up with Alex.

    • CommonSense23

      What units in SOCOM are still running the old MP5? And you are going to be really butthurt to hear what the next big firearm thats about to be adopted by SOCOM is going to be.

      • TM

        It’s been widely reported that the MP5SD is still in use with US SOF for pest control, ie shooting guard dogs.

        • CommonSense23

          It’s been phased out of the JSOC units. And what little are left are on the chopping block once the .300 heads to whiteside. And there aren’t even many of those left.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            I certainly haven’t been thrilled with the MCX. Typical SIG really… Maybe they’ll get it together at some point. LVAW I’m just not sure about. As a civilian… I’ll still take an MP5 personally, all things considered.

          • Lance

            Strong you vulgar but heads never bother to goto Navu and Army web sites and just look at current pictures.

        • Kivaari

          The SD is not a very good weapon other than being quiet. The very short ported barrel drops the velocity about 400 FPS. Those thinking a 9mm is already weak and useless will not like the SD. In Grenada it was reported the SEALs that landed to protect the top banana republic honcho needed protection. I understand the MP5SDs needed to be cleaned before they worked. Coming through the surf was said to plug them up. A good reason to have a plastic baggie over the things. Surf and sand will screw up just about anything.

      • st4

        The ones running around inside Lance’s head all this time such as SEAL Team Zero, Delta-est Force Ever (DFE), and Starship Troopers.

  • mosinman

    yawn

  • kyphe

    Never really seen the point in an AR bolt for a 9mm. To me the MPX only begins to make sense when using .40 SW. I believe the main reason the MP5 is still in such wide service is that even if another platform is potentially a bit better, if you already have Mp5 in inventory then nothing has been better enough to justify the cost of replacing a gun that works just fine as is.

    • DataMatters

      There is negligible difference in ballistics between 9 & 40. A 9mm carbine has one advantage–unlike a micro-AR, it isn’t loud and it recoils like a .22 so you can just dump mags into targets. You can train almost anyone to be deadly with an MP5.

      • kyphe

        I’m not arguing which round is better, but that the added weight and complexity only makes sense in a gun designed to fire more powerful snappier rounds than a 9mm. The MPX is also going to be sold in .40 and 357 sig. both of which have more recoil so may benefit from the extra mass and AR bolt. without that need I just don’t see the point in the MPX other than some people like the AR style.

        • Kivaari

          The roller locked HK was offered in .40 and 10mm. The changes beside magazines and the like, were different rollers offering a delay. Just like in the 5.56 and 7.62 HK rifles. A simple change of the bolt head, allows many different pressure loads to be fired. The Spanish CETME was often issued with a 7.62 round loaded closer to the AK47 rounds. To go to NATO standard ammo, just change the bolt head-roller assembly. .40 have given fits to gun makers. A straight blow back has shown burst case heads. Like many guns, the aluminum Blazer ammo burst in quite a few guns. They do need a longer delay. dwell time, so the action wont let the case head fail. There really is no reason to go to .40s. 20 years has shown the .40 doesn’t do much different than a 9mm. I know I can shoot a Glock 17 better than a Glock 22. That little extra recoil causes issues. Not much, but enough. We can also shoot 9mm for less money. Not a big thing for people that never train.

    • Kivaari

      Before suppressors were as common as today, like 25 years ago, the 9mm SMGs made sense. The muzzle blast from short 5.56 rifles and short carbines are horribly loud in confined paces. We had to go in to buildings with a long gun, and the MP5 is easier on he ears. When you don’t want nor need hearing protection, when it is the real thing, that little 9mm is great. We did not have nice helmets with great headphones like we commonly see today. Given a choice between the MP5 or M4, without a can, give me the little gun. If suppressed the M4 is superior.

      • Nicks87

        I fired an MP5 with no hearing protection on, just a watch cap, and it wasn’t bad on the ears at all. I wouldn’t recommend it but it’s very doable in a emergency situation.

        • n0truscotsman

          Versus a SBR. I’ve been caught without my headset and it made my tinnitis slightly worse in the long run just from one incident.

          You only learn once.

      • Budogunner

        I don’t entirely disagree with you, as ultimately the niche you are expecting the tool to fill dictates the tool choice.

        If we are just talking sound signature, though, subsonic 9mm is respectably hard hitting and stupid quiet. That gives a point to the MP5 over a stock 5.56 NATO AR.

        Now, if we fudge the rules a bit I must say the slap my .300 BLK subsonic puts on a backstop is louder than that delivered by subsonic 9mm. Plus, I’m suspicious it’s actually more quiet at the action. That is a dubious claim, even as I make it, since the MP5 has the advantage of the delay roller locking system.

        • Kivaari

          That is why we had so many new 9mm 147 JHP “sub-sonic” loads appear. The early 158 gr. IMI loads were OK to suppress but like all the other FMJ RN, it was just a .38 Special performer. A 5.56 with the latest generation can, truly small ones, would be just fine. Same for the MP5. I’d take either for close up work. A .300 BLK with a very short 7″ barrel would be better than the 9mm. I don’t know by how much. Using super sonic loads and a can would give both power and diminished sound. Look at the SWAT guys today, if they have time to suit up, they get great headsets. Patrol usually has to grab and go. Lost hearing in old cops is common. The city buys me new hearing aids every 5 years. $5000. It’s OK. Have the new guys wear protection.

          • iksnilol

            Doesn’t the added length of the can get in the way? I mean, how short do you go? MP5K with a 4.5 inch barrel works just fine, even with an American can it is still “only” 12.5 inches. Whilst an AR is like 10.5 inches of barrel (+ 8 inches of suppressor). I guess if you use the full length MP5 then the length difference is negligble.

          • Kivaari

            An AR having a 10.5 inch barrel and one of the new suppressors, that can add 4-5 inches if you get away from the QD feature, makes a gun with better performance. I have only handled the MP5K, and it is probably good for dignitary protection inside of a vehicle. Having a 4.5 inch barrel goes it handgun performance. I’ve used the MP5A2 for around 10 years and it IS handy. I had the department order the fixed stock since everyone want s to shoot the folding or telescoping stock in the folded/collapsed position. I think I’d rather have a Glock 34 over the K-model.
            Getting a short can on the M4 “Commando” adds a few inches. It’s still worth it as a hearing saver. As I said elsewhere I would not be looking for stealthy, but the benefit regarding hearing loss.
            If we go stealthy, than a good can on a subsonic load like the .300 BLK at short range is great. For distance you need speed. A good can will help keep you the shooter from being exposed instantly, but it takes super sonic ammo to get range.
            Off the top of my head I can’t remember what company makes the basic short can. I was looking at them this morning, but was more focused on .22 LR-Mag types. There is one that is a direct attach (no coupler for QD) that is about 5″. and around 1-1.25 inches in diameter and light weight. I’d use that on an M4 and not complain about length.
            My M4 has the new SOCOM weight barrel in 11.5 inches. It is not configured like most people would do these days. It has an A2 upper, so putting optics on it as limited. But if the fan got hit, I wouldn’t grab the short gun. A 16″ LW with BUIS and a Leupold Mk 4 1.5-5x24mm is superior to the small barrels. My M4 is a fun gun. I doubt I’ll ever face the dangers I faced in the past. It makes it heavy and adding a can would effect handling. If I do it, I am going to buy a new BCM upper in the light weight profile. I am not sure how much lighter it is. The M4 with the new barrel keeps the recoil dampened. Adding a can to the light weight would get a fair trade off. The biggest complaint about the M4s with cans is the amount of material blown back into the action.
            Gun cleaning supplies are not that expensive, so doing a few kick and enter cycles should be a small price to pay. I am old, so buying more stuff makes no sense, yet I keep doing it. A bit of my former self gets me back to the good times. My favorite dealer has an HK94K for sale. It just doesn’t appeal to me like the standard gun with the 8.85″ barrel. That longer barrel gives a good 100 FPS improvement over a pistol. The 16″ barrels add another 100 FPS. That’s where a small 9mm like the over-the-counter Berretta carbine gives the user small handy platform without all the NFA hassle.

          • iksnilol

            I just don’t think that 100 fps is worth double the barrel length. Especially if I can add a can that is just as long as the short barrel.

            Regarding 5.56, how short should one go? I remember reading that John Noveske recommended a 12.5 inch barrel for a general purpose AR.

          • Kivaari

            You are right about barrel length. The 16 inch barrels were only there to make ATF happy. The 9mm barrels 8.85 on the MP5 and 10.25 on the Uzi (standard) were practical. As for 5.56mm, it gets down to the combination of ammo and barrel length. Mine are 16 or 11.5. and I don’t worry about the performance, since I am old and likely to never need them in the real world. I would trust what Noveske said. He sure knew more about it than me. I liked how the old M193 (55 FMJBT) was perfectly balanced to give it highest velocity in the 20 inch barrel. The tuned performance couldn’t have been better. Then the 14.5 M4 barrels show up and new ammo has to be created to give a comparable performance. As we know the pressure was shoved up to deliver it, while it is harder on the weapons. But, if it works no one should complain. Certainly the bean counters in DC worry, but it needs to be done.
            If I were in charge, I would have gone to the 16″ with a Mid-length gas system. It is easier to get the performance and it should be slightly easier on the gun. An inch and one-half increase in length shouldn’t be that much more hard to maneuver around. The US Army doesn’t just go at this blindly.
            Having the SBRs for most of us is jut for fun. While a cop it made sense. I still liked the handiness of the MP5 in the front seat of the car. It is easier to get around with than an M4 But, we adjusted. The 5.56mm is definitely superior to the 9mm. Not being limited to FMJ ammo makes a huge improvement. Federal TAP has a strong following.

          • iksnilol

            I was thinking in regards to going from a 5 inch barrel to a 9 inch barrel. The difference (according to Ballistics By The Inch) is about 100 fps with most loads. So might as well go short and then add a 4 inch suppressor. Good folding stock and subsonic ammo and you have a quiet and handy package.

            I know very little about ARs, including their gas system lengths. I just heard that Noveske said that if he could have one AR, it’d be a 12.5 inch barrel. The only Noveske with such a barrel has a “carbine” length gas system. Looks like a handy rig.

          • Kivaari

            I am not a fan of folding or telescoping stocks, EXCEPT, if you wear body armor the M4s 4 or 6 position stick allows adjusting to LOP. I use a Magpul CTR on my M4, but on my other rifles I use fixed stocks having the length of the M16A1. I find the shorter stocks are just fin, and tall shooters can easily use them. But a shorter shooter can’t use a long stock well. I am nt convinced a really small gun adds much. I never had trouble getting around with the MP5A2 (fixed stock and 8.85″ barrel). Same with the M4. I guess if you were crawling around very confined spaces it may help, but I never saw need. If its that confining, pack a pistol.

          • iksnilol

            I like the triangle folders on AKs. Short enough to not get in the way when wearing a coat like I usually do. 7.62×39 AK with short barrel and triangle folder is probably my favorite. Would love to buy one, alas no opportunities yet.

          • Kivaari

            A friend, FFL, NFA and SOT (he can make NFA and sells the collector guns) has a 5.45mm Krink (as we call them) and it is a beauty. The sights are very coarse. I just couldn’t use them and expect a hit unless I was in the same room with the target. Very slick little guns.

          • iksnilol

            My ideal would be a milled receiver, 10 inch barrel, shortened adjustable gas system and triangle folder. In 7.62×39 of course.

            Can’t really decide on the suppressor though. 10.5 inch barrel and a pinned 5.5 inch suppressor could make it even legal. Though if going the legal route I’d have to go with a VEPR as a starting point. Would have to be a fixed stock then :/

            Eh, it’s moot anyway. Won’t be in a while. There’s other stuff I need to buy first with my new job.

          • Kivaari

            In the USA the barrel needs to be 16. If a can is going on it will have a $200 FET, if it’s blind pinned. If it is removable then a second $200 FET is needed. That’s why it pays to buy one already set up with a non-removable can. It could still have a core that could be removed for cleaning, as long as a permanent part of the barrel is 16″. It’s really a stupid law. A M4 – 14.5″ carbine with a detachable flash hider costs $200 FET, a pinned one doesn’t, or the 16″ without the flash hider doesn’t need the tax. The whole concept of NFA taxes on short barrel rifles and shotguns is not stopping any crimes. Same with machineguns. Hand a full-auto SMG to a gang banger and they will likely hit even less than a semi-auto. As much as I like FA guns, I know I am every bit as effective with a semi-auto. Perhaps a belt fed machinegun and government funded ammo would be ok. As long as the enemy hoards were rushing across an open battlefield. Then a Vicker’s .303 would be a good companion.
            I may add a can to my SBR. They are fun. If I was still working, and had chiefs like I had before, we’d have them. I was quite lucky to be able to influence the weapons choices for the department.

          • iksnilol

            Same crap in Norway. 40 cm barrel (16 inches), 84 cm (33 inch) overall length with stock folded/collapsed and muzzle devices unscrewed.

            The MP5 wouldn’t be legal in any way, so there I might as well go all in with full auto, folding stock and the pistol length barrel.

          • Kivaari

            Here’s an afterthought. Regarding the overall length of the AK shorty or SMG. Hold your pistol in front of you in a good two hand stance. Note how far the muzzle of you handgun is. Then if you can do so, pick up an MP5 and notice how close the muzzle is. It is not any farther out than your pistol. Most of the MP5Ks I’ve handled, and that’s ONE, didn’t make much difference. Except it had the commonly seen Choate folding stock. Those add unwanted LOP. With a HK A3 stock having the multiple length adjustment would be OK.
            That’s a common thing I see with people buying pistol gripped shotguns. Thy want to shoot rom the hip (I know it’s not a best practices). I how them how leaving the buttstock in place they can still shoot it from the hip, with more control. The muzzle of either shotgun tends to be the same regardless of stocks used. Pistol gripped short shotguns are FUN. Utility? Not so much. The NFA tax is only $5 on factory shotguns (smooth bore pistol).

          • iksnilol

            Never thought about it that way. I just like the folders because I can store it more easily (and carry it more easily from A to B). I am thinking the MP5K would be more controllable/accurate than a pistol. So might be worth it.

          • Kivaari

            Adding a buttstock to the mix makes a huge improvement. But it should be more than just a pistol with a stock. Getting some added weight and much better sights make them far superior. You will hit where you aim. Remember your pistol is for unexpected encounters. With advanced warning it pays to have a shoulder fired weapon.

        • Kivaari

          The need for a gun to sneak and peek, isn’t what the biggest advantage is. Just getting the noise down so the shooter and team mates don’t go deaf is what most need. If the idea is to remain stealthy, than a bigger can would help. Just 2 hours ago I was watching a person shooting a .22LR SV out of a finger-sized can. Today’s “stuff” is so superior to what we had 25years ago. I think the most useful suppressors are those that make indoor shooting less traumatic to the shooter. When you are across a room from the enemy, stealth doesn’t matter.

    • Kivaari

      AND we have seen, new 9mm loads will perform as well as .40s. I’d pick a 9mm over just about anything.

      • kyphe

        US law enforcement is opting for the .40 as a superior round in their opinion. This is where sig may get it’s sales from as it makes sense to have your SMG and pistol caliber carbines in the same caliber as your service pistols.

        • Kivaari

          Not so much anymore. First off is the .40 is not much different than the 9mm. As time has shown the 9mm, .40 SW and .45 don’t have much difference between when actually used. That is why many agencies are returning to the 9mm Good ammo we see today makes the difference, something that is no supported by the real world evidence.
          Besides that pistol caliber carbines have been falling out of favor by police here and in Europe. We have seen a major shift to 5.56mm carbines for a couple of valid reasons. First off, is the 5.56mm outperforms every pistol caliber carbine. Second many cops are very familiar with them, being vets. ARs have tons of ways to improve them, Lights, lasers, suppressors, and the kitchen sink. Don’t get me wrong since I have supported the use of pistol caliber carbines and SMGs for over 40 years. I wrote an article for “Law and Order” magazine over 30 years ago. It featured the HK94 SBRs and Uzi SBRs. As a result of that several police departments started issuing HK MP5SF (single fire) and Uzi carbines, cut to 10.25 inch barrels. I know what they can and cannot do. I had to laugh, because we always thought the FBI was behind the times. Five years after the article the FBI adopted the MP5SF.
          That said, the M4 carbine, one of the most issued police weapons, has advantages. An M4 full auto or not, is one of he greatest police guns ever. Over 40 years ago, I carried an AR180, M2 carbine and even a M94 .30-30. Rifles are better than shotguns most of the time.

          • FarmerB

            There’s little doubt to me that a 9mm sub-gun with 3 bound burst is just awesomely effective. And although I won’t admit it to all the MP5 owners around me, it’s a very fine firearm, although a little dated in some areas (more classic, or heritage than dated). I know everybody is going for M4 type rifle carbines these days, but I still find the blast, flash, noise from a rifle SBR to be damned unpleasant in confined spaces (try a cave!!). Sure, you run a suppressor, but then it’s not an SBR.

          • Kivaari

            We don’t need a mechanical burst feature. That comes with training and a developed mind-over-trigger-finger.

          • n0truscotsman

            Training? *looks in surprise*

            Who would have thunk thats the solution to problem solving? 😉

          • Kivaari

            Our sheriff was such a weenie, he bought two shot burst models. Silly.

          • John

            No difference between 9mm and 45? Have you seen ballistic gel comparisons?

          • Kivaari

            Have you seen how many departments are dumping the .45 to get a better balance gun, suitable for more people? I’d recommend reading Mas Ayoob’s article in March/April 2016 issue. In his “Ayoob File, he recounts a shooting in 2008 in Skokie (IL) where a police officer going up against a bank robber. What it came down to was the well trained cop using a Glock 21 .45 with an excellent round the 230 gr. Gold Dot. He was shooting a suspect that just did not want to go down. In the 56 second action he hit the suspect 17 times. The last three rounds hit the suspect in the head. Two breaking up on the face, and finally one in the brain case. The suspect had taken rounds to the heart, lungs, kidney and head.
            Yes, it is just one case where the .45 showed its weak side. But this is not uncommon. Texas DPS went from the .45 to the .357 SIG (in reality it is a +P+ 9mm) because the .45 did not perform well, especially if auto sheet metal was a barrier. The Skokie officer now carries a 9mm Glock with lots of ammo.
            What really maters is street performance. Gelatin tests are an excellent way to have a consistent standard. It gives a close approximation that can be repeated around the world The 45 GD perform MOST of the time. Like .45 ball the things can just fail as well. I was able to convince our small department to go to 9mm because the G21s are too large for most people. 9mm does well in Gelatin tests as well as .45 and .40. I’d pick the 9mm bore diameter at a +p or +P+ level (like Federal BPLE or .357 SIG). Today all 3 rounds have been developed to perform well. But stuff happens in the real world. The Federal load we used, we found worked poorly in the MP5 because the velocity was too high, and the bullet expanded too fast. We switched to testing 124 and 147 Speer Gold Dot, as they worked better in the MP5. We than adopted it for the pistols. Or chief had talked to the ab guy in San Diego (he and our Lt. both worked there, earlier).
            The increased velocity, lower initial profile allowed penetration to depths that when it expands it starts cutting nerves and blood vessels. Only 2 things stop fights, bleeding out and cutting vital nerves. In the Skokie case we know the man was a walking dead man. Heart shot, kidney shot, lung shot and he has to be leaking blood into his thorax. But until the 56 second of that fight, with 16 bullets in place that will kill him, it took a 17th shot to hit the brain. If a particular .45 bullet (or 9mm or .40-10mm) only causes bleeding the suspect or soldier opponent, may remain active for a few minutes, where he may kill you. The non-expanding loads poke holes. If they don’t cut nerves or vessels chances are the bad guy is getting really mad about being shot.
            I can have anything I want, and pretty much have over the years of being a shooter, sailor, soldier, police officer, gun writer and gun store operator. I’ve seen many trends come and go.
            I watched guns come and go. When I started we packed .357 revolvers, and there is hardly anything that wont get a very nasty wound(s) including huge chunks of tissue and bone flying 25 feet into the air. That’s great, except after the first round the follow-up shots were hard to make. Flash from contemporary loads were so bright, that it shut down your vision at night. A bright yellow-green flash at high noon wasn’t an issue. Do it at 0 dark thirty and you will need a white cane instead of an ASP baton. Almost every agency then switched to .38 Special JHP Super Vel ammo. We regained control (hitting is better than missing) but still had flash issues. The industry has responded well over the last 45 years. We now have powerful, effective pistol ammo with little flash. Real world shootings continue to show the 9mm loads to works quite well. Enough is NOT present in the .40 or .45. and that is no significant performance in tissue, but both add the heavier recoil so detrimental to good shooting. Since we had used +P+ 9mm since 1992, going to the .40 was simple, as the recoil wasn’t much different. If you remember there were complaints that using a soft hold caused the .40 pistols to stop. Short stroke and stove pipes.
            No one has really been able to fix the grip size on .45s. Close for many, but still too large for some. M1911 seem to all come with a long trigger, like the original 1911. The changes on the 1911A1 included a short trigger and scallops on the frame, allowing a better fit. Even so the 11A1 still does not line up for me. I’ve had 15 of them, and as much as I like real WW2 Colts, they don’t fit me.
            Not relevant here but to illustrate what can (may be) an issue with the .45 is like the huge elephant rifles of the 1860-1900s.
            When ivory hunters went to big bore rifles .58-.72 caliber they found out all that energy was wasted across the broad nose of the bullet, and they would not penetrate deep enough to kill the elephants fast enough. Then we saw famous hunters going to the military rounds common after 1890. Using 6.5mm, .303 and .318 (early 8mm) having long FMJ RN bullets. None having the “ENERGY” of those big bore guns. But that small diameter bullet penetrated deep enough o hit an elephants brain. One famous hunter preferred the .303 British, as it was fast to operate and held 8-10 rounds. A .45 suffers from that phenomenon. Albeit, not so often in people.

          • Core

            I hear you citing trends, but the truth is trends are debunked annually. This is mostly because administrative decision makers are often misinformed, uneducated, and often ignorant. I choose the unfair advantage, even if I have to train harder to do so. The Marine Corps determined they needed a larger caliber handgun over 100 years ago to kill tough determined enemies. And to be perfectly honest, I would value Col. Jeff Cooper’s perspective over current leo trends. We are talking about a population that gets one hit per eighty shots fired, but that’s a different story…

          • Kivaari

            I can speak of family members and associates that they shoot better than the national averages. I accept the FBIs view. I prefer a gun that fits my hand, a controllable caliber, and performance. For me, that excludes .45s. Cooper was a bit dogmatic. What too many people do is look at what works for a Cooper, but is simply wrong for most others. If the user can’t hold onto the gun properly, performance suffers. If the recoil forces the muzzle off target and results in misses it doesn’t matter how big the bullet is. Like we found over 45 years ago, that using .357 M19s resulted in poor performance. By using a controllable caliber, .38 Special +P, we could actually hit with multiple rounds and not lose night vision.
            Going to a lesser round brought improved performance, because it isn’t all in the bullet. If 70-80% of cops rounds are missing, maybe they need more training AND move to a gun more suitable for them. I have watched this over and over again. The “department gun nut” that stands 6-5 has no trouble with a Glock M21, so everyone gets one. Even the person that is 5-5, gets handed a gun that can never perform well. Missing doesn’t count. People in charge of picking the departments guns needs to think a little deeper than that. I can’t rapidly draw a large pistol or N-frame revolver and hit the target. Sure on slow fire it is easy to readjust the grip and take another shot. But try doing it fast.
            I may hit once, but I will most likely miss after that. I watched it happen frequently.
            I still do not think a .45 is worth having for most people. I know that my fellow officers had trouble. Even the guys that picked the .45s, found they did not shoot all that well. When they ended up making the change to 9mm, everyone showed great improvements. I’ll do it my way.

          • Core

            I understand your professional observations, and many believe 9mm is overall better due to those reasons. But you can’t claim 9mm is as effective as 45 without data that shows 9mm hits are more lethal than 45 hits. It’s apples and oranges.

          • Kivaari

            Don’t take my word for it. Read the FBI stuff. You might try other professional sources available from your public library. I certainly can claim there are 9mm loads that perform as well as .45 loads. It is simply hard to say which loads to compare. Some people say go with the .45 for the FPE, except the 9mm has loads that exceed the FPE of .45s. If it were not for hundreds of different loads we could easily show live tissue studies, that have been done, and give a result that is accepted by pros. Like the load we used most of the time Federals 9BPLE 115 gr, JHP +P+. It is within a few FPS
            of .357 SIG, which is like the .357 Magnum. I don’t know anyone that would dispute the .357 outperforms .45.

          • Core

            I hear you. Also note that the study only encompasses the cartridges the FBI studies. This rules out a good deal of options.

          • Kivaari

            The FBI did not do this in a vacuum. A great study out of Canada was available as well. RCMP were considering a change from the 2″ and 5″ S&W M10 .38 Special revolvers. RCMP was SATISFIED with the performance of the .38 – 158 – LSWCHP. What they wanted was a new semi-auto pistol in either 9mm or .40 S&W. After the extensive tests, including gelatin tests with barriers like heavy winter clothing (it is Canada) they used the .38 as a base line. The .38 that they were still satisfied with. The 9mm and .40 performed so alike that there really wasn’t a serious reason to make a choice. They were using MP5 SMGs, so the panel leaned toward the 9mm, but the .40 was adopted. This was done shortly after the .40 arrived on-scene. There are better loads today, but the tests show no real difference so pick what you like that ill work for most officers. That means a gun like a Glock17-22 or S&W M&P. There was a great deal of data sharing including the studies from the Army. Fackler’s data showed no real difference, but he was one that liked the .45. But Fackler did not consider the other factors that need to be important to him. He looked at the end results in tissue or gelatin. He never was concerned about putting a suitable gun into the hand of people. Like he viewed shotguns. He and I had a short back and forth at a conference. He liked 00Buck and the spreading of the pellets increasing the chances of a hit. He didn’t get the fear police agencies have about those pellets each having a lawsuit attached to them. He knew individual pellets at distance were minimal, but he likened it to shooting birds. This was shortly after a nearby sheriff’s department had one of those disasters. A man had kidnapped a woman. They were able to block him and the hostage and decided to shoot him to “save the hostage”. Except the suspect survived and the hostage died by a stray pellet. This was also shortly after a SWAT team from the town we were in had an officer killed after a 40mm les-lethal round failed to stop the suspect. The suspect fired on 7.62x39mm round, killing the officer. In response the suspect was shot and wounded, but so were FIVE officers. They were not all hit by that one bullet.
            I brought up my preference for rifles, and said the use of shotguns was too risky for police, when targets are at distances.
            I mentioned the disadvantage of 12 ga. slugs because they had 10 inches of drop from 0 to 100 yards. One of the young officers that had been on the scene of the fallen officer essentially showed how his not understanding his weapons leaves room for errors. My point being a rifle or 9mm SMG is a better choice for targets at distances beyond spitting range. But we had just witnessed a couple failures because the officers did not know the capabilities of their weapons. When the weapons used failed to do what was desired it led to two unwanted deaths.
            That brings me back to picking a handgun for police. If you can carry what you want, don’t pick the wrong gun because you think .45 is the best, when you can’t control it. I’ve watched it over and over again, and they always have excuses why they couldn’t hit the targets and the gun failed. Common sense overwhelmed by mythology of the .45 causes problems. I go at it by figuring out what will serve the best for most officers. Often one gun come close, a Glock 17 or 19. All a .40 does for you is lessen your round count with no advantages. As out state patrol found out, issuing the Berretta M92 wasn’t a good choice. A local trooper at 5-2 with red hair and a willingness to take on the bad guys just couldn’t use it. The patrol bought her a single stack Berretta and it was still too big. Before long they went away and HKs showed up. I lost track after I retired, but I bet they have gone through more guns that fit the training staff and not the troops.

          • Core

            When I started training in the military with the M9 , I witnessed similar issues. Many of the small framed gals and fellas had a tough time with the M9. After some advanced training most of the gals dropped out, I think one female passed. We then classed up on a long grueling series of trainings and the intial 200 was weeded down to 23 in seven days. I once believed the 45 was not practical, but I was wrong. I can see that now after years of using one. It’s not going to work for the everyone for sure but it’s not mythical by any means. It may require you to obtain a pistol that works for you. I have a FBI HRT type 1911, and it is much better than an M9, MKs, and Polymer, now that I’ve come full circle.

            I would be careful with a study using smg length barrels and thinking a 4-5 inch barrel with slide to bolt face action is going show similar results. I’ve seen 40 fired from 5inch and it opens up bigger than a 45 due to the velocity increase. 9mm from the same is much smaller. My 45 cartridges travel at 1800 fps, so I’m not concerned with velocity. There are many myths as you say, and there is much to be learned from kinetic energy transfer. The .45 Auto cartridge is far more capable than most folks realize. Its not for everyone and maybe not the FBI. In the end its all about what works for your team, and I feel bad that the police struggle to understand their weapon capability. Theres allot of marketing nonsense and trendy disinformation, and I believe the 9mm push has more to do with form over function.

          • Kivaari

            A point to consider with any of these is if you shove the velocity up, you may loose penetration. That is what we found with the MP5 using Federal 9BPLE+P+ 115 gr.. in handguns it performs similar to .357 Mag or SIG. Outstanding. In the MP5 the velocity went off the chart and made shallow wounds. My chief at the time was former San Diego PD. He talked with “their guy” that dealt with such things (I don’t know if it was a SWAT guy or Lab guy) and they had reported a shooting with the MP5 and that load, that took way too many rounds. At autopsy the bullets were found in very shallow wounds. They recommended Speer Gold Dot in either 124 or 147 grain. We switched to the loads recommended. Our training ammo was made on a Dillon machine and loaded to match bullet weight and velocity.
            As you noticed the M9 was difficult to qualify with. It is a nicely built club in the hands of most people. As much as I like having what our military uses, every time I buy one, I sell it after a range session.
            Same with 1911s. I’ve had 15 of them since high school 50+ years ago. They have that appeal that is hard to deny. Yet for serious work, they are a poor choice for ME and after watching many more shoot them, they are too much for most. I have watched myself do remarkably bad with even guns that are “perfect”. Like a quick grab of my K-frame S&W from my Hoyt holster, only to watch it flying through the air, falling a the bottom of the 7 yard target. You want embarrassing? That’s embarrassing. Or a very quick grab of my 1911, an dumping 8 rounds at the target from the same distance, only to see a clear target. Well, stuff happens, and it is better to see it in practice than on the street. If it hasn’t happened to you, you’re lucky. I did it with witnesses. It just is what it is. As you wrote it took you YEARS to master. We don’t have years to do that, if you are pumping people out of training into the world where they carry it. Give the people a pistol in a suitable caliber, that fits the hand, is reliable and they can hit with. It is better to have a lesser gun, if the hits go up. It took me years to finally figure out that following the recommendations of lots of old hands doesn’t always set the proper course. When I was in a position of influence, I was able to get changes, that when followed improved the abilities of everyone. Even the old .45 fans accepted the reality, that a 9mm Glock was better than their old choices.

  • JumpIf NotZero

    Fair video.

    I wouldn’t make the comparison that the Evo is a “better” gun than either the MP5 or MPX, but owning all three, I can see there is at least a reason to own an Evo if you’re an MP5 owner…. While the MPX I can think of no reason to own one (right now).

    The HK and CZ just complement each other so well. Both suppress well, the Evo is just cheaper and I wouldn’t mind beating it around a little. Beating around my MP5…. Less likely to do – just as Alex is less likely to do given that there isn’t a single mark on his MP5.

    – The MP5 is imo the best there is available. But… It’s going to cost you. I have a US receiver and almost all German parts, I don’t dare add up what that project cost.

    – The MPX would have been very good, but I feel the dropped the ball on the gas system. It suppresses like a 9mm AR…

    – The Evo is everything the UMP should have been. If the CZ logo was replaced with an HK, there would easily be a video on TFB declaring it the king over the MPX. I have no doubt.

    • mosinman

      Alex himself would probably do said video

    • thedonn007

      If the MP5 were not so expensive, I would own one. I suppose I could buy a POF version and call it good.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        I’ll tell you my main interest in the Evo.

        I have the MP5 SBR, picrogram lower, same setup as Alex’s… But I can’t afford to beat on it. A real HK bolt is $400! My trigger pack is $750 street! You can get a different semi trigger pack in the latest style for $400. And a US made bolt for $200… But that’s not the bolt carrier locking piece, no, that’s JUST the bolt.

        My MP5 isn’t getting competition or training or shoothouse play because I just don’t want to pay to fix anything for that gun. It’s dumb. YES, there are cheaper options like POF or MKE, but the parts will still kill you.

        The CZ on the other hand… manipulates largely the same way as the MP5, and parts are indestructible and cheap.

        I’d have ZERO concern (for the gun) if I dropped ran the CZ into the gravel and mud under a vehicle and then drop it on concrete… The same with the MP5? Oh no sir!

        • thedonn007

          Damn, you almost have me convinced to get an Evo. It would compliment my CZ pistols quite nicely.

          • Yimmy

            I love my evo. For the price, nothing comes close.

          • Dave

            Not an SBR, but Beretta Cx4 subcarbine? Had mine since ’03…

        • Nicks87

          I thought the same about the EVO. The first time I shot it I was immediately reminded of the MP5s I’ve shot over the years and I had to have one. I could never justify the HK but the EVO was a no brainer.

          • Core

            It’s a cool rig. Never laid hands on one.

        • Adam

          Get someone in the Philippines to post you Chinese MP5 parts. Norinco sell them for about $650 USD each.

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            Funny you mention that, I live in the Philippines and have been shopping for the Norinco clone, it is probably the closest I will ever get to an MP5. Even in the Army, in an MOS considered more advanced than most other combat MOS’s, we were never issued MP5’s. I loved my M4, and the M68 with PAQ-4, but always dreamed of the MP5.

            They run around 2,500, depending on the dollar, but during an election year, gun restrictions become worse. Just out of curiosity, do the parts of Norinco fit the real HK?

          • Core

            M4 is more capable. I would only want a full auto MP5SD for nostalgic value. I wouldn’t waste the scratch on a semi auto either. If you needed something professionally and are doing CQC you would be better served by a Kriss in 45.

          • Kivaari

            I know only one man with a Kriss .45. I have not shot it, but I trust his opinion. He feels it is one of the worst SMGs, he has ever used. Bob says he can’t begin to keep it on target beyond one shot. Bob, not a small guy. He has close to 30 machineguns, and is no novice in any regard. Another friend also used Bob’s sample. Same results. Both had the same feelings, uncontrollable and awkward. Since I only handled it in the shop, I can’t say how it would do for me, except it is awkward. A subgun should be as close to the MP5 in size weight and fit. If not, you can end up with a fun toy. I love the M1A1 TSMG, but it is also a club, weighing 13 pounds loaded.

          • Core

            Don’t diss it till you try it.

          • Kivaari

            I trust the dealer. He ordered it as a sample, and it didn’t appeal to the cops either. IN theory the weird track the bolt moves is supposed to reduce the recoil. Bob says it doesn’t. Good enough for me.

          • Core

            I believe none of what I hear, and half of what I see…

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            I know the M4 is more capable, I used to carry one. If I had the choice of breaching with a 5.56 or a 9mm, I would choose the 5.56 any day of the week. But, I have never used an MP5, so my view is flawed. What I do know, is the MP5 is still a go too choice of so many operators, there must be a good reason for this. As the video demonstrates, putting rounds on target seems relatively easy, and for a suppressed weapon, it is indeed quiet by comparison.

            Full auto is useless in individual weapons, except those intended as suppressor weapons, M240bravo and M249 saw. Even these weapons are never used in the Hollywood fashion. Controlled bursts, anything more is just wasting ammo. I can’t imagine a SEAL or Delta guy, kicking down a door with his MP5SD on his hip, then unloading a full magazine with one trigger pull.

            But clearly the MP5 has not lost a step, even half a century later. If anything, it has cemented it’s legacy as the premier CQB weapon of the 20th century, and apparently still has legs in the 21st. I would still love to get my hands on one. I almost bought a UMP40 when they first came out, wish I had, seems the price has only gone up on them. I was sad to see how awful the G36 was, even after I got to fire one with the German army, H&K has always been my favorite for arms having owned several USP’s in the past, it was a shame to see their barrels would fall apart in the most critical times. They are known for their barrels, even able to fire squib rounds in a desperate situation and not explode the shooters hand.

            Anyway, as you said, nostalgia is the primary reason, but I would use mine as much as possible, not polish it with a diaper as many people do.

          • Core

            I think the real reason we use MP5SDs in the Navy is for shipboard security operations. Shooting in small steel spaces is brutal on the ears and renders comms difficult at best. We used the old throat mics, but it’s still hard on your ears. In a rapid response, you don’t always have ear protection. They also handle better than a standard M4. They’re small and relatively hefty, and if you have good form you can dump an entire mag center mass. They recoil less than the M4. You can build a M4 hybrid that handles better and gives you more range. This is basically what NSW and folks like the Green Berets, has been doing for some time. When you can build a more capable weapon for a fraction the cost of a MP5 it’s a no brainer. The costly lack of attachments was initially a deal breaker for the MP5. There wasn’t too many options years back, now there are many more options, but you end up with a heavier rig in the end typically. I’ve worked with DEVGRU/NSW and Delta and many other allied special forces and we got rid of burst fire a long time ago in the Navy and Corps. You can manage fire with a full auto fire control and good trigger control. All of the Navy and Corps folks like MARSOC, JSOC, NSW, use full auto. Also federal agency special units. You can learn to burst with your finger, and most weapons that have ridiculous high fire rates are not practical for use.

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            Interesting comment, and I can’t argue what I don’t know what certainty. What I do know is this, we carried the M4 almost exclusively as a Cavalry Scout back in the early 2000’s. With exclusion of drivers, who had M203’s and LMG guys, which had M240Bravos, the rest of us had M4’s with semi and burst. We only used burst when we were ordered to deplete an ungodly amount of ammo at the range. So at 0300, after everyone had their fun with day quals/night quads, we had about 20 guys in the shed speed loading magazines, a few runners, and another 10 guys on the line, on burst mode, burning through ammo so we could go home.

            We never spent any time trying to master burst. The point being when you use three rounds, that is two too many when your first is a head shot. Ammo is more precious than water, and wasting it, is a no no.

            Our walking pack averaged 60 pounds, including SAPI plates. When you choose what to carry extra, socks or bullets, you pick bullets every time. The “standard” load out was 210 rounds, 7 full magazines, which you can burn through very fast. Most guys carried what they could, 10 to 15 mags.

            If the NSW SECOPS guys are using full auto, I would be very surprised not sure what benefit they get from spray and pray. Also, having muzzle discipline why pulling the trigger on full auto, is a great way to take out your own team. If you are hit during a trigger pull, and you spin with the trigger down, you run the risk of killing the guys in your corner.

            Any bump or snag during movements can cause such off target incidents, when you have all that gear on, it can happen fast. I am glad we worked hard on using our ammo efficiently, it also made us safer operators to work around.

            Anyway, thanks for the info, I have played with a couple AR/pistols, they seem great for the movies, but ridiculous for actual combat. 14.5 is short enough for me. I will have to take a look at the kriss, I am not familiar with it. Probably have seen it already, just having a brain fart, which happens more and more at my age.

    • My MP5 just got back from the smith because I run the little bastard into the ground and actually shot a barrel out, lol. I had it refinished about 6 months or so ago, and the enamel is already chipping in many places.
      These guns are meant to be shot, and my MP5 is my go-to gun because I have shot it thousands of times and I trust the hell out of it.

      The Evo to me is a cheap, bog standard blowback SMG lacking in features or any pizzazz. It does nothing that my trusty old CX4 doesn’t, and has many weird problems. I stored loaded mags for 3 months or so and the feed lips have cracked, it has stupid molded in rails, and its heavier than a freaking HK UMP in .45.

      • Dave

        Ah… Cx4 run ‘n’ gun in the offing? I suppose if I had a “helmet cam” I could have filmed my latest… lying flat on my back, flat on my front, “unconventional shooting positions,” “rice paddy prone,” prone, sitting at 100 yards, So-called “hostage rescue” shots and some rather ungainly and quasi-spastic “shooting on the move…” All in 9mm.

      • Kivaari

        I’m surprised it wore the barrel. Ours went to ~ 50,000 rounds. The barrels looked fine. Well, except for the ring caused by a squib load followed by a round. HK promised 1 week turn around times and it was about 6 months. I suspect it had to go back to Germany for re-barreling. They are amazing guns.

        • Anthony “stalker6recon”

          I was surprised just as much as you, but it turns out the entire German military has dropped the H&K G36, because of the barrels failing. They become so inaccurate, so rapidly that they are ineffective during combat. H&K is known for their barrels, and it is a shocking turn of events. I had the chance to fire the G36 when I was stationed in Germany, and I really enjoyed the integrated optics. I also had time with the XM8, which had superior simplicity in the bolt group. It was configured the same as the M16/M4, as far as breakdown points and bolt group, but had much larger, flatter surfaces making cleaning a breeze. No more going to the dentist for used picks to get into those hard to reach parts of the AR bolt.

          The ease of transformation from long range shooter, to CQB style carbine made it a formidable weapon. They killed the project, if I remember correctly, because it could not change calibers as required. But that one limitation did not take away from the quality of the weapon produced. I would have loved to carry that, even today. Wonder if that barrel also suffered from decreased accuracy during heavy fire.

          Anyway, the failed barrels of H&K, is going to ride with them for a long time, something I am certain they regret to this day. Being dumped by a major military, at home, must sting quite a bit. The H&K 416 upper, was a very popular upgrade made by soldiers in Iraq. The reliability of the gas/piston action, coupled with the lack of soiling on the bolt, made this a great way to increase reliability for soldiers unhappy with Colts gas only system. Not sure if the buffer had to be changed as well, but I would think the compression required a different spring to operate properly.

          Anyway, I hope they rebound from the mistakes, I still love H&K. No one is perfect 100% of the time.

          • Core

            Do you know if the HK416 piston system is reliable? Compared to other piston operating systems and a direct impingement system? Any studies or data? I’ve had a bunch of folks who own piston systems advise against them. I’ve also heard the HK416 is the best piston system available. And the Sigs look very similar, are they similar piston systems or totally different? Tia

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            Everything I remember about the 416 is that it is beyond reliable. There is absolutely no fouling of the bolt group, and conversely, the feed ramp of the magazine. In my experience, most jams are not related to the bolt group on the M4/M16, but bad springs and followers of the magazine. Any fouling there, leads to trouble. Having no blowback, and new magazines almost cures the double feed problem completely. The 416 operates with the smallest amount of CLP or whale sperm, and reliability climbs while maintenance drops considerably.

            If I could get a 416 upper today, I would not hesitate to do so, and they are not ridiculously priced either. The H&K site lists them at a few hundred dollars. If I could have someone ship one to me here in the Philippines, I would stop eating for a month just to order one.

          • Core

            Thanks for the reply. I just priced the railed full HK416 and it’s right nigh of $3k. Not sure about several hundred for the upper, but I’ll look into it. It’s legal for private sale in my state, but I’m not sure if it’s a restricted item? Doesn’t seem to be since it’s made in Germany. If legal, I would be happy to help you.

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            Unfortunately, shipping of guns or gun related parts is strictly prohibited. Only authorized dealers/importers are able to bring weapons into the country. They are very strick with gun control here, of course there is a huge black market and even larger smuggling here in the Philippines.

            As a foreigner here, I wouldn’t risk it, jail is not pleasant from what I understand. Funny thing though, my good friend had his mother ship his shotgun to him, by balik bayan (returning filipino) box. They are mostly unchecked boxes, and come inside huge containers with hundreds of other boxes for personal use. The most common customs listing is “household goods”. It was a huge risk, but he got it without problems. I wouldn’t ask that of my worst enemy.

            Thanks for the offer though. 3k for the H&K, that is ridiculous. On H&K own USA website, the uppers are listed in human prices, wonder where the jump comes from. I am from Northern Virginia, near the Sterling Virginia assembly plant for H&K. Not sure if it is still there. I remember something about an import ban, but they got around that by shipping the parts to Virginia and assembling them there, which got around the ban.

            Been a long time though, maybe the plant is closed and they are doing full imports only, causing the price to skyrocket.

          • Core

            Interesting. $3k is for the entire HK416 with rails in box with magazine etc. I’m not sure how much the upper is. Because the upper not a firearm, it would have to be firearms parts. I can’t imagine how a barrel and associated parts could pose a risk. Anyway, be careful not to discuss anything that could be misconstrued to violate your local laws. I have no understanding of Phillipine law. But I’m guessing you could get an upper legally by paying license fees and getting permissions. You could use an existing lower from in country, if you don’t already have one.

          • Kivaari

            If I remember it wasn’t the HK barrel that failed, but the way the barrel seated in the plastic receiver. Heated up it melted the “precision fit” they claimed to have. Now that should be an easy fix by adding a metal heat sink. Didn’t the XM8 have similar issues?
            I think the Army made the correct choice. Keeping the M4 makes sense since it does work, even in the simple and less costly DI guns. Often people, especially soldiers given an option they will play with their gear. Having access to an HK piston upper would be worth trying. Yet, after all these years, and all the rifles tested, nothing has made enough of an impact to justify going to a new rifle. There has to be hundreds of millions of dollars just in replacement parts in depots all over the world. Adopting a new rifle, making those parts surplus, doesn’t make sense.
            The people screaming for a piston gun, need to take a look around and smell the Hoppe’s No. 9. It seems that all the major players in the piston gun market are now selling the DI guns. DI guns work, and work well. If it takes a bit more Hoppe’s to clean them, so what?
            Having a rifle that changes caliber is just not a real need. Why would it be needed in a military context? Sure hobby shooters will have fun swapping out calibers. If the military think a different caliber is useful, they will hand the soldier a rifle in that caliber.
            The last thing the army needs is a pile of E4s playing with their rifle. All the swapping out does is introduce more chances for something to go wrong.
            Yes. I’d like to have a good one. If I “need” (that’s akin to swearing in church) another caliber, it’s pretty easy to change the upper on an AR. I don’t see any warrior packing two barrels and two types of ammo for a mission, beyond having a handgun or a little HK MP7 used like a suppressed pistol. No weight penalty if they leave their Glock behind.
            All the change-barrel guns are intended for we the gun buying public.

          • Anthony “stalker6recon”

            Well if my memory serves, and it is questionable, I am no spring chicken, the XM8 was created to meet a specific set of goals dictated by the Army. The weapon had to convert from a “sharp shooter” long rifle, to a carbine, and everything in between as the first major goal. The XM8 met that standard. As a few replacement items in the field would allow the weapon to go from a 22″ near sniper rifle, to a 14″ carbine with a few changes, mainly the upper receiver. It also needed to serve as a squad automatic weapon, and I believe it was capable of this as well. The biggest hurdle, was the transition to another caliber, mainly 7.62. This was never achieved, thus the program was cancelled.

            While I agree this feature seems more geared towards the public, it was a goal designate by the Army. When I had time to play with the carbine, I would have handed my M4 in immediately. It had both the reddot sight, and the IR laser integrated into the top rail. No more M68 or PAQ-4 needed to be attached, with 550 cord as backup lanyards. The frame was lightweight, the action was super smooth, and cleaning was a dream compared to the M4 platform. I do love getting into the breach with a dental pick from time to time, but it sucks doing that in the field, in the frozen tundra or the hot equator sun and sand.

            One of my NCO’s put it best, “our weapons are not shelf pieces, they are in fact machines, they are supposed to be dirty”. As much of a hothead drunken idiot he could be, he had some wisdom in there as well. They are machines, they are not supposed to be sparkling, they are a dirty machine for an even dirtier job. Most of the jams are not caused by fouling in the bolt group, but bad magazine springs and poor designed followers, leading to tilt which causes double feeds.

            The requirements for the program were extremely high, probably impossible in any practical way, so it was doomed. The idea that soldiers would be swapping parts, is just not true. You take what is issued, there is no swapping going on. Even those of us who bought aftermarket gear, like ACOG’s, had to get that approved just to install them. The only real choice we had, were slings. Most of us dropped the sling entirely, and made a short leash which we hooked directly to our assault pack via a locking carabiner. This kept the weapon at the ready on our shoulder. If we had to go to our backup M9, the M4 would stay connected to us, and safely, which allowed for very fast changes from one weapon to the other.

            The soldier creativity ends there. So if the system had been adopted, most likely the issues would have been similar to what we see today. Back when I was active, only specific units received the M4. Scouts were the lucky ones. The rest of the company of 11B and 11C’s got ridiculously large M16A4’s. For the shorter guys, it was almost 2/3rds their height, and looked like something a clown would carry at the circus. Our M4’s, with collapsible stock, looked like toys. The rest had LMG’s and 203’s.

            Today, I think that most soldiers carry the M4. It is great for most engagements. When you get into the open, especially when fighting uphill against an ambush, the M4 shows its weakness. It lacks the power to fight beyond 400 meters, especially against elevated targets, like afshitastan.

            For those engagements, only the 240b and mounted weapons like the M2 are effective. The M16 is just okay. Sorry, I went a bit off topic, just a lot of memories come up from these conversations. Anyway, thanks for the enjoying informative comments. Scouts Out.

      • Core

        I trained VBSS with the MP5/SD & Navy. Story: We we’re doing a VBSS in the Pacific with one of the Teams, we had resistance, and a Team Chief made a headshot from approximately 200 yards to an elevated position to stop a threat armed with a AK. I’ve fired many of the older smgs, and I’m partial to the MP5 and Colt M4 in 9mm. I’ve also had an opportunity to fire the Bushmaster XM9mm in full auto. I really like the Carbon XM9 protoype. It’s finicky on extraction, but chews through fmjs well. Needed to slap the forward assist a few times. I’m fairly certain, I could fix the feed issues if it were mine to tinker with. tip: Aim for center mass and relax as you burst the trigger and it will rise placing rounds center mass and riding up the neck and leaving one or two in the head. It takes about a full second and leaves you with one neutralized threat.

      • Adam

        You shot out a Factory H&K barrel? How many rounds and what ammo?

  • LoneStar

    MY view of MP5
    CONS

    – Charging handle is forward and left with is miserable if you’re a lefty – Same for bolt release with involves your off hand
    – No stock bolt hold open,if you don’t know there is 10 rds in the mag
    – Hard to mount optics
    – Hard/Can’t to mount other accessorizes
    – small magwell and can be hard to load under stress
    – Trigger stinks
    – Roller delayed blow back and having to monitor bolt gap
    – Cant change calipers
    PROS
    – Proven
    – Availability of mags and surplus parts.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Don’t be a lefty. BHO is the same rules as a pump shotgun, get a click, do an action. Optics are dumb to mount. Accessories can be mounted fine, but I like the wide handguard and don’t want an aluminum rail just to mount a light. I have the stupid expensive “FBI trigger”, and it does stink. I don’t know why anyone would want to change calibers from 9mm…

      This is type of thing lots of internet dumbdumbs say like “oh I wish it was in 10mm!” then are the same people who would never shoot a gun in 10mm because of the cost. The type of people who own more guns than they have hours of formal training.

      As to checking bolt gap, meh, not really a thing. Mine is .020″ perfect and the only way that will change is when the rollers wear out and I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

      Surplus parts is absolutely not a pro. Look at the prices sometime. MP5 parts are STUPID expensive for what you are getting. It’s a scam market with at best three vendors who can actually get parts.

      • Rollers dont wear, the trunnion does.

    • DataMatters

      Availability of what now? You can hardly find parts anymore! The hoarders have ruined any prospect of maintaining one affordably.

      • LoneStar

        More so than the MPX, as of right now.

    • Kivaari

      There are many ways to mount accessories. New fore ends are common. New M1913 optics mounts are available. Monitoring “bolt gap”, is a what is it you are talking about? We used ours to 50,000 rounds and retired them, not because they wore out, but we being gun people wanted new M4s. MP5 parts were common when the guns were common. I suspect you can find sources, whereas the others just are not well supported. Few surplus parts exist for a new gun.
      HK is slow on service, or wee in my era.

    • BillC

      No, the worst thing is that stupid safety that’s a pain to reach and is a pain to manipulate.

  • KestrelBike

    Awesome. I actually lost my damned mind around xmas and *finally* bought an MP5 Clone. MKE Zenith Z-5RS (full size). I got the typical wide-handguard from HKParts, and have already submitted a Form-1 for the SBR goodness (going to go A3 collapsing stock). I also tracked down a Gemtech MK9K suppressor which is currently on a Form 3 from Gemtech to my LGS.

    Quick question: The MK9K suppressor I ordered has the integral 3-lug mount. When I attach it on the barrel to the male 3-lug, do I keep the thread protector screwed onto the barrel?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Yes. The three lug indexes on the smooth part of the three lug extension. If you have a three lug with a knurled fitting, that is not for suppressor use, only flash hider.

      I don’t like the “Navy” barrels because of this. The three lug threaded section has to be loctited so it won’t loose inside the can.

      • KestrelBike

        sigh… I hope I don’t have issues. Honestly, I don’t quite understand what you’re saying. Let me see if I got it right:
        My Z-5RS *will* accept the 3-lug-mounted MK9K, however I need to loctite that thread-protector onto the threads so it doesn’t come off inside the can (and do terrible things in the path of a bullet).

        • JumpIf NotZero

          Yes, so long as it’s the smooth thread protector.

          If it’s the knurled one that’s not meant to go in cans (but does all the time).

          The three out system uses that area as index – depending on the adapter. Most adapters will 1/2 span that area. You can get away with it, but I wouldn’t risk it with my mk9k and mine has a steel blast baffle.

          • KestrelBike

            thx for your info JumpIf. I’m waiting for a callback from Gemtech to see what they suggest. I had already ordered the MK9K w/ the 3-Lug mount and it’s on a Form 3 at the moment, so it looks like I may need to replace the entire barrel if I really want things to be safe/secure… but I hope that’s not the case because then I’m looking at an additional ~$300 in parts/labor.

            I’ve also read some things where people use Rocksett to give a heat-protected loctite experience between the thread-protector and barrel.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Smooth adapter + some loctite and it won’t go anywhere. I’d use loctite in this instance because it might be hard to remove from a smooth protector if you ever need to. With loctite there are solvents. It won’t go anywhere just because it heats up, it’s more of there is nothing on their at all and it’s free to spin off.

  • DataMatters

    I have a clone and have enjoyed shooting it. In fact it gets boring cutting the center out of targets with it. My main beef with them is that they are annoying to clean.

  • JumpIf NotZero

    Also Alex, I’m confused as to how you so poorly ran and reloaded the Evo… Doing that weird turn the gun vertically and with effort work the mag in with your strong hand, turn over, then with the support hand release the bolt (!? that’s a lot of gun juggling)… But with the MP5 (I’m assuming post-sample?) you seemed to reload that like a human.

    And.. You squint up pretty hard. Try relaxing your face. If you’re rigid like that on the range, you’re going to get really clunky when the timer is on and tunnel vision sets in. That uncompromising muscle movement starts at your face but I assure you its in your stance as well. Just fwiw.

    • Lulz

      Yeah alex, your face must hurt a lot, because it’s killing us!!!

    • Core

      Who knew you were so thoughtful.. You gave him some fantastic albeit brutally critical advice. We need more people like you in the world.

  • Kivaari

    The MP5 is one excellent submachinegun. I have put close to 30-40,000 rounds through them. The only parts I saw fail were the plate that holds the rollers in place on the bolt head. They cracked at around 35,000 rounds. The replacement part is a simpler spring that should outlast the plate. If memory serves me, one extractor also broke. The MP5 is the best SMG I have ever used. Admittedly the others were shot for fun. We had M1A1 Thompson SMGs that are a kick to shoot. It is where I found the comments rom folks talking about it rising up in recoil throwing bullets over the target. I’d say it doe if you shoot 3 shot bursts. If you lay in the trigger and lean into it, the things are like a water hose, going where you want it to go. The MP5 is superior. During a demonstration for city officials, I brought my 10 and 11 year old sons along. They showed the town council how easy the guns were to use After that the worries expressed earlier, were dismissed.

  • Yimmy

    Best there is? Yeah, yes it is…..Nothing else to be said. Onward Heckler onward koch!

  • ELVIS

    Here he is…. yes the Mp5 also known as the king. What was before is still now and will be for a long long time to come. Sig? Lol. Evo? Nice for price. All hail the king baby!

  • Kivaari

    That tid-bit article shows what WAS. You don’t see many used anymore. We do see SEALs using M4s most times. We also see a few HK MP7 suppressed SMGs, or is it a pistol with a wire stock.
    What I have noticed is the M4 is number one in all branches. In the special ops units, we have seen quite a bit of them taking anything they like, and tailored for the operation.
    Like handguns, they seem to have anything they want. Word lately from popular press is the Glock 17 and 19 have displaced M9, M11, P226 and 1911 clones. Submachineguns have lost a lot of ground to 5.56 carbines. MP5s or any other 9mm SMG have very short range.
    You can easily hit at 100m, and if paying attention you can make good hits farther away. It becomes hard even at 100m if you get a crosswind. I’ve shot groups that moved 6-8 inches off POA. In that same wind, the 5.56 was hardly moved. 6-8 inches is enough to ruin your plan of putting the bad guy down. Under even little stress it is easy to have your sights set at the wrong range. I shot at a match, where I was actually a spectator. I used a Mini-Uzi on a 125 m target (an actual 125m) I had inadvertently put the rear sight on 200m. I over-shot the target until some told me I was high. O looked, flipped the sight down and made good hats thereafter. Once you get that far out, even if you hit, the bullet doesn’t have much left over. Real rifles are better. I wish I had not sold all my pistol caliber SBRs.
    With a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, you wont see that kind of drift. Speed kills.
    Given a choice most warriors will take a rifle over any SMG. I remember Max Hastings excellent book of on the Faulkland War. The main body landed with a conventional mix of infantry using L1A1 rifles and Sterling SMGs. The men that chose the SMG commented that they had the wrong gun. The ranges were long, and the wind didn’t stop blowing. They couldn’t reliably hit the Argies. The SAS teams that were on the island from shortly after the invasion were packing M16A1s rifles. They avoided contact, but should it happen, they needed range capable calibers and lots of ammunition since they lacked resupply in a crisis.

  • Mark

    The MP5 has an image problem.

  • Petto

    MP5 still rules , even today if country needs a modern SMG it’s still better to get a modernized MP5 than let say MPX , since with that price of MPX you can get like 3 or 4 MP5 + tons of accessories

    Other countries just buy a UMP9 – because the law enforcement price is a lot cheaper than the “killer” MPX

    or they just look elsewhere and buy like the CZ Scorpion Evo 3

  • Tassiebush

    I got a mild endorphin rush just watching that on full auto with the suppressor. I can only imagine how fun that is!

  • A Fascist Corgi

    The B&T APC9 would be my top choice for a submachine gun.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Yea? …. Go feel one.

      Very front heavy, takes a 99% but-still-incompatible AR trigger, and still so expensive. B&T just doesn’t get it, and I really doubt they ever will.

      The CZ Evo is the same gun in polymer instead of extruded aluminum, it’s 1/3rd the cost, and it balances much better.

  • Budogunner

    It looks like Alex could have kept a penny balanced on the front sight hood during the three round bursts. That is a smooth shooting platform.

    Fantastic video, thank you for your hard work (and, let’s be honest, play).

  • Vitor Roma

    May I suggest a run and gun with the Walther MPL?

  • Kivaari

    Well, I’ve been saying that for quite some time. It seems that the FBI just validated what I’ve been saying.

    • Core

      Kivaari I would be careful in claiming the 9mm is as effective as the. 40 and. 45. The reality is that the 9mm is not as effective as either however, the 9mm is in itself effective, cheaper, and allows higher capacity magazines. The FBI is constrained by many operational factors and some folks in the Bureau will never become experts with the higher recoil. The best trained in the Bureau are still carrying the. 45. If you argue that the. 40 is as good or better than the. 45 I might agree. Based on the ballistic results and expansion factors. Further, the advances in cartridge kinetics and projectile properties are expansive across the board not discreet to any particular caliber.

      • Kivaari

        I accept the notion that the 9mm, .40 and .45 are not different enough to be measurable. After long study, using a whole bunch of world wide scientists and physicians, using the best methods involving live tissue and gelatin, I accept their findings.
        There are so many variables in shootings where people live, die fast or slow that it fits the model, that there are no sure bets.
        The attached FBI explanation of why they returned to the 9mm, makes perfect sense to most. Especially to those that have been involved for decades.
        There is almost zero difference in wound channels when using FMJ bullets, and JHP-JSP that do not give good expansion, that they may as well be FMJ. Like the .44 Special and .45 Colt “expanding” ammunition that never reaches high enough velocities to expand. Like Winchester Silver tip in .44 Spl., .45 ACP or .45 Colt. Yet people will claim those calibers are better than X or Y. Most ideas about handgun performance is, as the FBI letter claims, myths.
        I’d agree. There is little doubt that a good expanding bullet with more cutting edges are more likely to cause the desired results. That is stopping the suspect. When a body is hit with a bullet that does not cut nerves or blood vessels or destroy vital organs, the person is likely to live. Eighty percent of people wounded by handguns survive.
        I knew a couple of men shot with .25 ACP where it bounced off a rib. Then in a 2 year period we had 5 criminal or negligent homicides with .25s, where single shots killed the GSW victim. Go figure, shot placement is what worked.
        I will claim that it is much harder to get people to hit the target with a .45 than either the 9 or .40. ONLY good hits count.
        If the shooter can’t deliver the bullets to the target, the shots are wasted.
        We have all heard stories of people getting shot X-number of times with Y-caliber pistol (or rifle) and the subject just wont go down. Even if vital organs are hit, the person remains active. That poses a continuing threat to the good guys.
        There is no knockdown power. We should all know that by now.
        If a 9mm user can place shots well and in a fast manner does that make it better than a .45 that can’t be used that way? I claim so. I know from me personally that a Glock M21 is pretty much useless for self defense for me. Then after demonstrating how much better I could shoot a 9mm, and how poorly the others couldn’t shoot their .45s, it convinced the chief to rearm the guys.
        No one, except for the single M1911 user complained, as everyone, including the 1911 user, showed themselves that the 9mm is superior for the intended use. I can not shoot a M1911 fast and get hits. I can hit with a Glock 17 or 19. It turns out that is the case for many, likely MOST, shooters.
        Then we can insert the medical aspect. Like pointed out in the FBI letter, surgeons cannot identify what caliber handgun (or rifle) created the GSW. If the hole looks the same regardless of being 9mm, 10mm or 11.35mm what matters? WE ALL KNOW, or should, that foot pounds of energy means little. Even if there is a complete energy dump, what does it do? Temporary cavities we all know don’t mean much.
        Well, this has been thrashed enough that I find it odd, that people persist in keeping the mysticism alive. ONLY GOOD HITS COUNT.

        • Core

          The statistical probability of effectiveness is greater in larger caliber handgun wounds. Your facts are good but you are missing the critical element. Find data on lethality by caliber hits. Misses don’t count as you mentioned. I can shoot as well with a 45 but it takes a good deal of time and energy to get there. I also carry a 9mm when I can’t conceal a 45.

          • Kivaari

            Except the data I use is the real source. You made my point for me. If there actually is a benefit of having a larger caliber, and for practical police and military handguns, that limits it to the 3 popular rounds. Then the point is, which caliber gun combination is best. The FBI and I agree that the 9mm is the “best” because people shoot it better, thus making more good hits, than if they are using a gun that does not do so. Back to what is better. A 9mm allows better shooting. f the actual studies show modern 9mm, .40 and .45s don’t show actual improvements over the others, than why do so many persist in needing the big bore?
            I remember one particular shooting one of our officers was involved in. During the attempted arrest, she pulled her SIG .45. The suspect reached out and grabbed her gun by the slide. He pulled the pistol to him, while the muzzle was forced down into his fat role.
            She shot once (the gun didn’t cycle) with the bullet went into and out of his guts and came to rest in his thigh. He took her gun, threw it into a creek, pulled his .44 Mag M29, fired a shot into a tree. Knocked her around and took off running. The next day he was captured. In the X-ray the 185 gr. Silvertip hollow point showed no expansion. He would not let the surgeon remove it as it would be great evidence. Yes, it is only one case and one bullet but it showed a real problem with .45s. In real tissue they don’t always work. Year later an nut went into our courthouse. A detective confronted him, she pulled her Glock 21 (way to big for her) and he disarmed her and shot her in the shoulder. The fight was on, with a judge joining the fight. The suspect ran off, with her gun, and was arrested the next day. The wound wasn’t much. Bullets do funny things, and that often involves not performing as expected.
            I again suggest you read Ayoob’s latest article where the cop shot the suspect 17 times with his .45 with little effect. People just don’t always fall down like they should.
            Another officer I used to know shot a suspect once, with his Taurus .45, and the kid didn’t fall down. He surrendered, but that .45 didn’t do much. Then the shooting involving one of my brother-in-law where he and his partner killed a man with one shot from a .357. One shot and lights out. Then the WSP trooper that engaged in a gun fight with a man wanted for shooting a woman minutes before. Bill and the sergeant stopped the suspect, the three exited the cars, Bill shot the man 6 times with a .357, but he watched his slugs hit extrtemities and not where needed. The Sgt. Firearms instructor for WSP put 6 rounds center mass, and the suspect was still up, as a deputy fired 5 round, he hit the man from the side, in the chest and the suspect went down. DRT. 17 shots, 13 hits and at least 6 were dead on. Bullets do crazy things, when a suspect doesn’t know he is supposed to be down and dead.
            It just happens, that pistols in reasonable calibers, shot into people don’t get the results desired.
            If the FBI says there is no difference, I’ll agree, because they used the same sources as I did, added some of their own work to it and picked the 9mm. Even if there were noticeable differences in performance of each bullet, the 9mm makes more sense, as people do shoot it better. Only good hits count, and sometimes they still don’t do what is wanted.
            Like the recent articles on TFB abut 5.56 v. 7.62. Bigger isn’t better.

          • Core

            The statistics prove the larger caliber handgun wounds have a higher probability to end the fight. The smaller handgun cartridges are less effective.

            This doesn’t account for effective or critical shot placement. What this tells me is that when I empty 6-7 rounds of .45 into a bad guy he will likely go down faster than with 6-7 rounds of 9mm. Don’t get caught up in what-if’s, this is the real world. : )

          • iksnilol

            How is that true when the feds (who I dare say shoot more people on a dialy basis than most do in their lifetime) say there’s no practical difference?

            How is it that surgeons can’t see the difference between a GSW from a 9mm and a .45 ACP? I mean, if the bigger caliber was more destructive the surgeons of all people should be the first to see that.

          • Core

            These results you cite are coming from individuals who are addressing questions with questions. What I have learned is that the statistical probability of lethality increases when a subject is struck by a handgun with larger calibers.

            The handgun calibers are grouped into three basic groups: small, medium, large.

          • Kivaari

            The doctors can’t tell the difference between 38-9-40-45 and now hear this many 7.62X51mm rounds leave a simple hole. Because the tissue is elastic it stretches as the bullet passes through. It then closes up. This is well documented in living soldiers and civilians at domestic ER trauma units. Doctors simply don’t know what caliber was used, unless they pull a bullet or fragment out. I am surprised you have not looked closer at the data. It has been open source for decades.

          • Giolli Joker

            Which statistics? Please send a link.
            (Col. Cooper quotes can’t be called statistics)
            Larger and smaller than what? 45 and 22 aren’t like 45 and 9mm.
            As far as I know (it was once published here as well) forensic pathologists are unable to tell a .45 wound apart from a .40 or a 9mm one.
            FBI seems to follow those data instead of your statistics.

          • Kivaari

            I would like to know where you statistical probability material is reported. I do hope it isn’t Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall’s book. That has been totally debunked.

          • Core

            FBI and DOJ

          • Giolli Joker

            Link them please, FBI is currently saying the opposite of what you’re saying.

          • Kivaari

            That is odd. Statistically that is not true. Even the very old DOJ study from the early ’70s has been debunked. Except people keep looking at only the tissue or gel studies to make the claim. The push back on the size of the wound track keeps appearing, when it has been noted for a century +, that looking at the wound track and probing it do not show anyone more than something made a hole in the tissue.
            It is even that way with many rifle bullets. Even 7.62 NATO can leave a wound track that looks just like a wound from a 9mm (.38) and .45.
            I remain baffled by so many people making counter-claims by basing their ideas upon something as simple as the caliber of the bullet. “Bigger, has to leave a bigger hole”, is the claim. Even when people are shown that to be false, they cling to bigger is better and has to do more.

  • disqus_q3DGRNy8c8

    Is there some reason that the Uzi was totally ignored in this discussion? I’m puzzled.

    • The Forty ‘Twa

      It was mentioned in the video…

  • John

    So, in your opinion, is there ever a situation where you would choose .45?

    • iksnilol

      Nope. Too expensive and unpractical to be useful. Subsonic 9mm is even quieter to boot.

      Ya just need to let some things go.

      • Core

        When the statistical probability of 9mm lethality is higher than 45 I’ll carry a 9mm exclusively. That will never happen until the wide adoption of higher pressure cartridges.

        For you folks who can’t manage the recoil in a 45, just carry the largest caliber you can handle. I personally don’t care what people want to carry and I hope if I get into a gun fight the other individual has the smallest caliber handgun possible. And when you try to cite a random surgeons observation on wound channels can you say that you would prefer to be struck in the skull with a 22 or 45? Question #1.

        Question #2: would you prefer to be struck in the leg with a 22 or 45?

        What say you?

        • iksnilol

          Would prefer the 45 in both instances. Both are low pressure and very slow. Going the same velocity, something that has a smaller diameter will penetrate better. In other words, more likely for the .45 to deflect off the skull than the .22.

          Also, where are these statistical probabilities? You seem to try to use big words to sound like you know what you’re talking about.

          • Core

            Get on the FBI and DOJ websites and start researching, that’s how I found it. I don’t do legwork unless I’m on the clock. I’m a scientist and big words come with the territory, and I haven’t used any yet. You’re a clown in suggesting you would prefer to be struck in the head with a 45 versus a 22. I hope you aren’t paid to carry a firearm.

          • Giolli Joker

            http:// .thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/26/fbi-training-division-justifies-9mm-caliber-selection/

            Broken link to avoid delays, please read thoroughly.

          • Kivaari

            Remember the .22 MAGNUM defeated many early vests. Big bullets, especially soft point, FMJ and JHP are the easiest bullets to stop with Kevlar. Some .45 ACP and .38 don’t cut more than one or two layers of Kevlar. Hitting an early vest with .357s had a good chance of killing the officer. After testing a Second Chance test ample, I stopped using .357, as I saw what it did to the vests. If my gun was taken, I wanted my vest to stop it. First I put 2 rounds of .38 – 158 LRN then mags. Then I thought better of it and put all .38 JHP. They were new Super Vel, and as far as 1971 is behind us, they were better than the standard.

          • iksnilol

            See, the funny thing is, those sources of yours claim the opposite. They all say how the caliber itself is irrelevant.

          • Kivaari

            That is actually true. A drunk Spokane Police officer shot a man in the head with a .40 SW out of a Glock 27. It just skipped along the skull and gave the also drunk subject a nice bleeding head wound and a head ache. Look that one up as it still pisses the people of Spokane into a rage. Now nearly 50 years ago a deputy I know, my mentor, had to put down a heard of cattle that had been on the railroad tracks when struck. There were around 35 head. He was packing a S&W M1917 .45. Using Ball ammo, there were no JHPs then. He was frustrated because shooting cows in the head just leaves wounds in the skin and bounces off the bone. He did go back to a .357 after that, as it will kill a cow with one shot. Higher velocity does matter, The bullet needs to have a “biting edge”. It’s like shooting an M1 helmet with a .45, and you get a dent, whereas a 9mm pokes a hole. The helmet is like a skull – speed kills.

        • Kivaari

          Core, I am surprised you have not researched this deeper. The FBI letter has distilled decades of performance down to a pretty straight forward work product. Seriously look at the wound profiles created by the Army, FBI and RCMP. FMJ bullets of 9-45 leave a wound that cannot be distinguished from each other. It is just fact. Depending on skin elasticity, you MAY see a bruise around the entry wound. These study isn’t just a simple look at gelatin blocks, but actual GSWs, and with the surgeons that did the work. or at least some of it and can assemble the work of others. Almost all of these cases now have excellent imagery so the information can be shared. A good measure of these wounds is how much vascular damage happens around the wound track. Since so many handgun bullets do little damage and hit with FPE that are so similar the wound and bruising is not caliber distinctive. I know that shooting live animals shows some God awful wounds when the velocity is in the .357 Magnum range. Where hitting bone leaves a wound 6 inches in diameter and throws bone and flesh 25 feet out of the wound. I’ve made shots with .38, .357, 9mm and .45. The only load that showed those nasty wounds were .357s. The others made simple entry wounds. I never had to shoot an animal with the 9mm +P+ loads or .357 SIG. Those two are essentially the same as a .357 Magnum in FPS and FPE. None of that matters, if the bullet doesn’t perform. Too many .45 JHP rounds from 10-30 years ago simply did not work. There is a lot of data on things like the older Silvertips, that did not open in .44 Special, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. They simply performed like a round-nosed lead bullet. And that isn’t too good. I did shoot a deer with a .44 Special and was simply amazed at how little it did. It didn’t hardly effect the deer, until I switched from the neck to the thorax. Same with .38 Special.
          The newer ammo found toady is so superior to 20 years ago that choosing the right load makes all the difference.

        • Kivaari

          What do you mean by higher pressure? I am not sure how you apply it to the cartridges being discussed. Is it the higher pressure rounds like the .357 Magnum, .357 SIG or 9mm +P, compared to the lower pressure cartridges like .38 Special, .45 ACP or .45 Colt?

          • Core

            Im heading in the direction of the pistol sized rifle cartridges current and in development.

          • Kivaari

            What? “Pistol sized rifle cartridges”? What is that? Are they rifle rounds or handgun rounds, that look like small rifle rounds? Like the 5.7×28 ? 7.62x25mm ?

          • Core

            Yup exactly.

    • Kivaari

      When it is issued and you have no choice. Like 50 years ago when they handed you a M1911A1 and a couple of magazines.

  • Zebra Dun

    Give it a mud test.

  • Core

    It sounds like you missed the first few semi auto shots. You definitely warmed into it and landed the rest in good fashion. The MP5 is like shooting butter out to 200 yrdsish. One of the best, I miss the MP5SD Navy… I like the HK UMP45/40 also. I would hope folks like Sig improve upon the HKs timeless offerings to set the bar and create a eager want for a new and hopefully better tool but unfortunately machines can be a hit or miss.

  • Bert

    One thing to note is that Alex knew the capacity status when he was shooting, He never tried to fire the gun when it was out ammo. Anticipating when he needed to change mags was a way to negate the lack of a bolt hold open. The lack of bolt hold open and a bolt release near the mag well adds wasted time.

  • Adam

    Why didnt they just make it in 45?

    • maodeedee

      9mm ammo is more common, 45 caliber more recoil harder to control. I’d sure like to have one though. That or a 10mm.

    • iksnilol

      Because #9mmMasterRace

      MUAHAHHAHA

      • Adam

        Pffffttttttt Just make everything in 300 Whisper… my new 1.45 in 0.014 pure copper jackets can squeeze out a 265 grain spitzer soft point.

  • Anthony “stalker6recon”

    This is a weapon that has been, and likely will be, on my dream list. The fact that authentic MP5’s sell for ridiculous amounts, having seen them at auction go above 15,000 dollars (full auto), just pains me.

    I have argued the merits of such a firearm on several occasions, when I say argue, more like beating up a puppy on sites other than TFB. As a former Amy 19Delta, Cavalry Scout, familiar with many different firearms, this one still has the ability to capture my imagination. I rank it right up there with the Mk19, my absolute favorite weapon system I used during my time in service.

    The Norinco MP5 clone is probably the closest thing I will ever get too, when it comes to the MP5. They are available here in the Philippines where I reside, for just under 3,000 US dollars. If I do buy one, I will try to post some video of it here on TFB, I already know it has little in common with the original. But for a poor soldier living in a very gun restricted country, it may be my only hope.

  • Anthony “stalker6recon”

    Last time I checked, they ranged from 100-120 thousand pesos, they may have been quoting me the white guy price. When I looked in their brochure, it did list at that price. Now that the dollar has risen to 47,versus the 40 pesos it was when I was shopping for one, it would lower the overall dollar price, but they are still expensive.

    The only downside of the Philippines, is the archaic gun laws they have. Law abiding citizens can’t afford them, ammo is over 50 cents a round, and getting permission to transport the firearm is a pain in the ass. You need to get government approval to go from your home to the gun range, the permit is painful to get, and has a limited window of use. Every time you want to shoot, you must pop up on their radar, and invite scrutiny. Not my kind of freedom. But I choose to live here, and must play their games. Anyway, hope the information helped, thanks for your input on the MP5.

    • Adam

      I know the laws there well, Myself and two mates were trying too set up a Range there in a old quarry 30 minutes north of Cebu..And running day tours through the bigger underground arms factories in Danao..We even had the Durano’s blessing for it.. We planned on having everything you could dream about, We even had meetings at Norinco in Beijing to get All their latest toys and arrange shipping container loads of ammunition. End of the day,The bribes they wanted us to pay which was in the hundreds of thousands, killed the whole project there. We even looked at setting it up in a MPEZ zone.. Turned into a too hard basket… And we scrapped the whole idea last year.

      • Anthony “stalker6recon”

        That sucks, would have been awesome. I am not surprised that the corruption destroyed the plans, it is so overt here. When I was getting my visa, the “lawyer” in charge, forced me to pay him a cash fee. I had my phone recording him, and when I asked what the money was for and if I would get a receipt, he said no receipt, just paying for the ease of the process. It of course was not easy, and I had my microphone against my leg, so the recording was indecipherable.

        One thing is certain, Philippines law has crushed innovation and the economy. There is so much potential here, but the only way to fix this corrupt government is revolution. No body wants that bloodshed. The 60/40 law for foreign owned businesses, has also destroyed industry here. We see the worst products being imported from china, rather than building better products here, because of the corruption. The products here, are rejects from Walmart. If they don’t want it, you know it can’t be any good.

        Oh well, if you try to set up a range again, let me know. I have considered a live fire CQB training center and range, but right now it is just a thought, I don’t have that kind of capital to do a start-up like that. My cousin, who is a Filipino citizen, has a machine shop in Cebu. He has everything needed to manufacture weapons, if he so chose. Maybe we can get together with him, and look at options. He is trustworthy.

  • Anthony “stalker6recon”

    Yeah, I know how low the price is for truly gifted people here, it is almost sad, but they are happy with those rates. I hope that someday, the corruption will be better in check and ideas like yours are able to flourish, not be destroyed by corruption and greed.

    I have been to dumaguete once before, nice little town. Apparently I was there at the wrong time, as the town was overrun with bikers and their 30 kilo wafer stripper girlfriends, not my kind of people. So I ended up in Talisay, very happy here.

    Again, good luck with the future, if you do decide to give it another try, let me know, I can be a promotional guy with my military background, all free. Just let me get my weapons at cost. Take care, good talking with you, Scouts Out.