San Bernardino LE response

Credit to FREDERIC J. BROWN/AFP/Getty Images

Credit to FREDERIC J. BROWN/AFP/Getty Images

The tragic events of this past Wednesday’s Terrorist attack were committed by cowards with the sort of sick mentality that causes all sorts of violence in the world, not just in San Bernardino, CA. However the Law Enforcement reaction to the heinous shooting was extremely swift and ended with the solution of removing these sick individuals from the equation of life. The media coverage of that response was very thorough, and unfortunately is one of the only ways we at TFB get a chance to show some of the interesting firearms being used by Law Enforcement these days. I wish we had more media coverage of cops training, that equally showed what they were actively using, instead of having a traumatic event take place, that allows us to see what they have.

This year could otherwise be termed as “The Mini-14 Resurgence”. Not that these Mini-14s appeared out of nowhere, the police in Paris and the local PDs in San Bernardino have most likely always had these Mini-14s in their armories, but through the high profile attacks, we see them in operational use for the first time. In the San Bernardino police response, it appears that the Sheriffs Deputies wielding the Mini-14s were the patrolmen first on scene, so these rifles are probably their car or duty rifles that are issued out to them. However with the SWAT response, we are seeing a much more typical LE load out with AR15s, in addition to their duty sidearms. One of the reasons why the response was so fast is because their SWAT team was conducting training at the exact time of the shooting. And thus was able to transition from notional role play to an actual gun fight, which mainly involved the chase of the two killers SUV, effectively ventilating it with rounds.

Below I’ve attached a smattering of photographs all over the internet, of the Law Enforcement response. Some interesting findings include the ever elusive folding stock Ruger variant, in addition to various suppressors mounted. Most of the Rugers appear to be the civilian market Ruger Ranch rifles, or similar civilian versions, with either 20 or 30 round magazines inserted. I can’t look at many of the pictures close enough to tell if there are selectors on the right side of the receiver, just behind the rear sight. We also see some Remington 870s in various guises, and a number of different handguns, to include a seemingly good number of 1911s. From the body armor/gear/weapons of the SWAT responders collaged with the same layout of the patrolmen, there is an erie cross between the most modern of todays Law Enforcement, to something from at least the 1980s or so.

635846926742130523-AFP-546933417 777c3ab5-ec6e-4966-95f0-b0b05ae8bec0-large16x9_CaliforniaShootings_Loia 1107696_1280x720 12342520_10206258475275220_7426155649770440924_n

Authorities search an area Wednesday, Dec. 2, 2015, following a shooting that killed multiple people at a social services center for the disabled in San Bernardino, Calif. (James Quigg/The Victor Valley Daily Press via AP) MANDATORY CREDIT

Some of the SWAT guys had suppressors mounted.

151202194031-27-san-bernardino-shooting-1202-restricted-super-169

Interesting in the age of AR accessories, we are still seeing setups like this with the carrying handle mounted Trijicon, and the traditional handguards with a vintage light mounted. Then again, funding is not universally great among every Police Department, and I myself have seen a full size M16A1 in use by an officer in Indiana. As a 1911 fan, I’m happy to see light mounted 1911s in these Safariland thigh rigs.

cvwitwavaaamkd8_custom-7b25e81c0319bad9035c40cf260ff47feea4934c-s900-c85

Firearms used by the killers. The single point slings, reflex sights, and other accessories almost bring their weapons to the same level of the weapons used to kill them by SWAT.

12295429_10206258475235219_679534369298423884_n 151202173710-san-bernardino-shooting-780x439 la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-fact-vs-fiction-20151204 635847042470275345-San-Bernardino-shooting-photo california-shootings _87011112_87011111

Police officers conduct a manhunt after a shooting rampage in San Bernardino, California December 2, 2015. REUTERS/Mike Blake TPX IMAGES OF THE DAY



Miles V

Former Infantry Marine, and currently studying at Indiana University. I’ve written for Small Arms Review and Small Arms Defense Journal, and have had a teenie tiny photo that appeared in GQ. Specifically, I’m very interested in small arms history, development, and Military/LE usage within the Middle East, and Central Asia.

If you want to reach out, let me know about an error I’ve made, something I can add to the post, or just talk guns and how much Grunts love naps, hit me up at miles@tfb.tv


Advertisement

  • Tom

    It is interesting a number of them are using the magazine on the Rugers as a grip. Maybe a hold over from gripping the mag well on an AR or using vertical foregrips?

    • Kivaari

      At one time that technique was commonly trained. I do find an extended off hand makes it more stable. I would suspect most of the cops using the Mini 14s had very little training of any kind. Same with shotguns. When I did the academy in 1971, our FBI instructors certified us, if we could show how to load it, unload it without firing, and shooting 10 rounds. WE had 39 cadets, and most had very little training in anything, unless they were lateral from out of state. In those days a re-cert class for out of state officers. Those guys had been cops for a long time. Only a couple of them were trained with rifles or shotguns. The best shooter was aa cop from California that had taken his CA pension and moved north. He had just killed two bank robbers using a 6″ Highway Patrolman, while straddling his Harley.
      Every patrol car should have both a shotgun and a “patrol carbine”. The Mini 14 is a great rifle. I would not have felt under gunned with one, but I loved the MP5 and M4 we used the last 10 years I worked.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Should have called in an airstrike.

    • SirOliverHumperdink

      Like mayor Rizzo.

      • Kivaari

        That sure did some urban renewal in Philly. Once again very poor leadership and training was shown to the world. I only worked with one former Philly cop. He had never been trained in how to use a shotgun. The sergeant at the time took him to the ambulance garage, and said “The first thing you do is make sure it’s unloaded”. He then fired the shotgun through the ceiling and a couch sitting above. It snowed cushion fillings all around. After that we trained both of them.

  • Tom

    I rather think that recent events in Paris and elsewhere have resulted in a lot of forces “dusting” off those old rifles and SMGs at the back of the armory. Under ideal circumstances it will be possible to bring SWAT type units in to engage the threat but in reality it will probable fall to patrol officers as first responders. Whilst we can all lament the increasing militarisation of our police (on both sides of the Atlantic) it is an unfortunate necessity to ensure that those men and women whom we ask to step into harms way have something more than a handgun to protect us and themselves.

    • UCSPanther

      The militarization of Law Enforcement did not just happen in a vacuum. For the US in particular, it started with the 1968 Detroit riots, and encounters with groups like the Black Panthers and the Symbionese Liberation Army.

      • Kivaari

        BUT, if cops said they wanted to upgrade the gear they were called gun nuts or simply nuts. Been there and done that a few times. It always amazed me at how backwards the feds and metro police departments can be.

        • UCSPanther

          I understand that there were protests about “militarization of the police” when squad car rifles were being floated, but those swiftly died down after the North Hollywood shootout.

          The adoption of police carbines/rifles should have been more widespread, especially with 1980 Norco shootout, where five misfits hit a bank and outgunned law enforcement simply because they had three rifles between them.

          A ruffian with a rifle of any sort is going to have a range advantage over a cop with a shotgun or handgun, and it is only fair that law enforcement has a means of answering back in kind…

          • Kivaari

            Remember all the chiefs saying “MY officers are out gunned”. No media deadhead asked the chiefs, “Why?”. Cops can carry any firearm they want. If the department want to issue machineguns, grenade throwers with fragmentation grenades, they can. Texas cops have belt fed machineguns on the river boats. Then no cop will be out gunned. Then whatever guns cops can have the citizens should have, without the $200 excise tax penalty.

          • Marcus Toroian

            The township surrounding my city (17 officers) has a very nice Lenco Bearcat, two M240Bs, Mini 14s, MP5Ns, an anti-tank rocket launcher of some type, and according to a few I’ve talked to, almost all of them have LMT short barreled ARs with their badge number as the serial, which they ordered in bulk. They are personally owned, but from what I have seen, they don’t use the department Minis, instead opting for their own ARs. I know a lot of people freak out about that stuff, but I like the fact that the LE in my area is ready for everything. Especially this department. There are some great people that work there, and there used to be a lot more.

            Their private firing range is on my dad’s mail route. He says it sounds like a war going on in the woods sometimes.

          • Kivaari

            Excellent. My chiefs simply would never go there. The fear of city councils ran deep.

    • Kivaari

      During the San Ysidro mass killing, it took an hour to assemble SWAT. Two uniformed cops could have taken their S&W M10 6-inch revolvers and M870 shotguns and moved in and killed Huberty. Instead SWAT got all dressed up for the party before the went to work. Huberty killed a bunch of people while commanders were setting up a command post. They didn’t use common sense, following an SOP manual written by administrators that ignored the real case. The cops at Columbine ignored that failed lesson. When I hear cop top brass talking about how “We learned so much from Columbine”, I have to shake my head. Why didn’t they learn from the Austin tower shooting? San Ysidro? Ball and Franks Gun Shop? North Hollywood?
      It doesn’t pay to idolized Southern California cops, as was so common in my era. SoCal, was the “ideal” way to do police work. Until corruption more well known in Chicago was going on in Newhall. There are a lot of small town cops that could teach LA and Chicago police how business should get done.

      • The Bellman

        Well the doctrine has changed since then. Supposedly, once there are more than two armed officers on the scene they are supposed to begin clearing rooms. Dunno how much this has actually been used, but last I checked it’s on those very same books.

        • Kivaari

          When I started out 45 years ago, it was our policy without it being written down. It was always do it now, since backup is an hour away.

        • Bill

          Sometimes it’s 1 officer. I can’t wait the 15 to 45 minutes it might take backup to get to the scene.

    • Sulaco

      Did you note the use, real use of the armored vehicles? Mostly to block in the suspect SUV at the end shoot out. Immobilzed the suspect vehicle and kept the officers safe from suspect fire with the weapons they had upto and including the pipe bombs. Obamie started taking those away from dept’s last Sept…

      • Tom

        They are only taking back the tracked ones. Which City Works departments are probably thankful for, tracks tare up asphalt pretty bad.

      • Bill

        None of those were surplus, they all appeared to be commercial models from Lenco. Not one mil sourced MRAP or HMMWV to be seen.

      • bernardg

        Guns, not politics please….

  • Squirreltakular

    I’m still weirded out by the killers’ choice of grip pods. I wonder what prompted that.

    • Nicks87

      Yeah they obviously didn’t spend any time on TFB comments section.

      • Squirreltakular

        Haha. I like mine. I waffle between it and a small handstop. It’s definitely nice if you’re in armor and expecting to fight from the prone most of the time.

    • Vhyrus

      Guess you didn’t notice officer mctactical third from bottom has one too.

      • Squirreltakular

        I did. Not sure why his is worth remarking on.

    • Josh

      those fore grips are cheap bipods, paintball quality. They are cheap though, I do have one to try out as a bipod because I only paid $8. I did see a table full of them at a gun show recently for twice the amount. Too long and unwieldly for tactical use though.

      • Squirreltakular

        Well, theirs might have been, but the regular issued ones are pretty high quality. Only saw a broken one once.

  • retfed

    In the second picture, the deputies are next to a Corvair. What year was this picture taken?
    Hope nobody put holes in it.

    • Edeco

      Erm, 6 tail lights tho. I think it’s an Impala.

      • retfed

        It might be a ’63 Impala. The giveaway is if there are cooling louvers in the deck lid. I can’t see any louvers because of the angle, but it looks too small for an Impala. Those were the days when cars were cars.

    • Bill

      “Hope nobody put holes in it”

      Second that, those are collector’s items. I had a 65 back in the day. Then there are the really rare Corvair vans and pickups.

  • RockChucker

    Its nice to see that most everyone had their trigger fingers OUTSIDE of the trigger well.

  • floogy

    I feel much safer and at ease with the police carrying Mini 14s than the AR15 assault weapons. Except the assault weapon Mini 14s with pistol grips and flash hiders. Those are scary.

    • Kivaari

      Just think how bad they would have been if they all had black stocks.

      • Pontificant

        Now, that’s just racist!

      • floogy

        Right? How could anyone protect and serve with an assault weapon? They’re weapons of war used to kill.

        • Kivaari

          I saw one BROWN stock. An affirmative action appointment. What if they paint one pink or white. Yellow, with little slanted eye on decals. Put some drag car flames, neon lights under the barrel etc.

    • dshield55

      The liberal in purchasing freaked out at all the “assault rifles” in the catalog so he settled on the “ranch rifles.”

      • Pontificant

        I think liberals call them “assault rifles”, because they’re black. It’s terribly racists of them, but why else would they treat African-Americans as inferiors? 😉

  • Nicks87

    Ugh, Do I see a 1911 in a drop holster? Why… just why?

    • To clear body armor. Drop leg holsters are for clearing body armor, there are few other reasons that make it worth the annoyance of them.

      • I prefer mounting my pistols on my plate carrier

        • Bill

          I’d rather use the room for mags.

      • Nicks87

        Oh I know what a drop holster is for but the 1911 just doesn’t make much sense. It is California though, so who knows.

        • JumpIf NotZero

          You can’t tell who really trains hard in those photos… But it’s definitely not the guys that have drop leg holsters 😉

          • imachinegunstuff

            Oh c’mon the chaffage is totally worth looking cool! Never mind mind it’s never in the same place twice, and bounces around while you run, how do I maximize my cool looks without a drop leg?

          • Nicks87

            Belt or chest mounted on your plate carrier is the Gucci operator way to go. I prefer belt If I plan on shooting prone a lot.

          • Nicks87

            I love it when SWAT guys show up and their gear looks brand new like they just took it out of the package.

          • Bill

            Never trust anyone with clean gear 😉

        • Actually it is pretty normal, as striker and TDA guns become the norm for the rank and file officers in agencies, the SWAT special dudes can’t carry the same gun as the rank and file thus they carry the 1911 because they are special.

          • StBernardnot

            As in Special Ed?

          • Nicks87

            Yeah “special” is about right.

  • Bj

    50 dollar BSA red dots bring you on par? What I think is interesting is you can see half the red dot has been shot off the dpms rifle, that and they switched uppers on the 2 rifles.

    • nadnerbus

      Well, I’d bet they would do the job ok unless they got dropped on the sight or the battery ran out. I put a garbage Barska on a rifle for a while 12 or 13 years ago and it worked just fine. Was able to sight it in and it held zero, was able to hit what I was aiming at. For 40 bucks or whatever I payed for it, I was pleasantly surprised.

      When I upgraded to an Aimpoint and gave the Barska to my friend, he put it on a Benelli. It did not survive too many rounds of magnum buckshot.

  • Oregon213

    As a parole officer, nice to see some POs out in the game… great opportunity to free up some more patrol from outer perimeters and whatnot. I’ve been patrol too, so I’m mostly speaking from that backgroup – seriously, what a rough day to have been working some post on the edge.

    • Sulaco

      I noted that also as they had their own armor and were ID on the armor as PO’s. Very nice work and they integrated into the status of forces on the ground without a hitch from what I could see.

  • mosinman

    although i have been critical of the police on TFB before i have to hand it to them, they did a heck of a job protecting people

  • JumpIf NotZero

    LOL! Drop leg holsters… So many drop leg holsters! 😀

    • Nicks87

      I know, WTF? I wore one for a year last time I was in the desert and it was a pain in the @$$. It would get caught on everything, my M9 was so beat up that when we got back to the states the armory had to put new grips on it.

  • KyleNo4Mk2

    CHiP’s helmets with the Mini-14’s! Awesome!

    • Kivaari

      Look at the helmets, they are the old K-pots, painted in “sheriff colors”. They are good to have.

  • nadnerbus

    Some of the LE in the whole Christopher Dorner fiasco were seen sporting stainless Mini14s too. I suspect they are in inventory down in San Bernardino/Riverside County for use by the Sheriffs department.

    Nothing wrong with the mini for police use. Not as versatile as an AR for mounting stuff to, but if they just need a 5.56 slinger that will work reliably in normal conditions, it will do the job just fine.

    • Kivaari

      All the mini 14 needs to be a better carbine is a flash hider (an option). The right optics are out there, just needs an adapter. Too bad Ruger hasn’t come up with small sections of M1913 fore and aft.

      • nadnerbus

        I think Ruger should thread the muzzle as standard, and just ship with a thread protector. That gives ban states like here in CA the option to but on a brake and stay in compliance with the law, or people in free states to put on whatever they want.

        Optics have always been a little funky with the mini. Any optics mounted will require a comb riser to get a proper cheek weld. If Ruger offered your mentioned pic rails on the receiver, or even just a wider variety of integral scope rings to accommodate the current generation of red dots and tactical scopes, along with an optional comb riser for the stock, I think the rifle would be pretty sweet as is.

        • Kivaari

          I had 4 Mini 14 GB (government bayonet). The rear sights did not have enough adjustment range to get good group. Raising them high in the “old-style” base made them “wobbly”. The aperture was too small for dark conditions. Like in the PNW all fall and winter, especially in the bush. I ordered several un-drilled replacements, and nested them so the aperture was higher, thus keeping the wiggles away. I then played with aperture diameter until I found the right size. Contrary to popular belief a couple of those GBs would shoot very close to 1 MOA. I have not used any of the new models, that are claimed to be more accurate. I suspect they are. For a year after the new models came out, I could not get the model I wanted. The synthetic stock, with flash hider and short barrel. I finally gave up and went for another AR. The AR is a better rifle if you want to equip it the good gear. BUT, I still like the Mini-14. Had deliveries been made, I’d have one. If they were not so damn expensive I’d buy one just to test it.

          • Bill

            Ruger is missing a big market share by pricing the Mini above entry level ARs, but I’m guessing that the cost of manufacturing a Mini is far more than an AR given the amount of machining involved.

          • Kivaari

            Ruger has its own entry level AR. It is too crude for my tastes. The Mini 14 should not cost more than a GOOD entry level AR. I don’t consider their entry, to be good.

    • BattleshipGrey

      I carried my own Mini 14 on patrol for a number of years when the rest of the PD’s rifles were just sitting in the vault. It did everything I needed it to in training. Fortunately I never needed to deploy it for real. The only reason I stopped carrying it is because I didn’t want the state investigators to confiscate my rifle never to be seen again. So once we got the PD’s ARs in the cars, I stopped carrying my own.

      • nadnerbus

        My only gripe with the older model Minis, of which I own one, was the pencil barrel and the way the groups opened up as the barrel heated up. Made POI a bit unpredictable after a mag or two. They seem to have addressed this with the more modern production mini. Other than that, the thing is reliable as hell with factory mags, and has gone through several thousand rounds without problems.

        If someone wants a tactical uber rifle that they can mod up, drag through mud, and run in carbine courses and whatnot, it’s probably not the rifle for them. But if I had to face a bad guy, I’d feel pretty comfortable with one in my hands

        • BattleshipGrey

          The longer range accuracy was the main reason I eventually sold my Mini 14. I wanted something that could maintain better accuracy at distances beyond what the Mini could produce. However, everything at 200y and under is the race the Mini runs.

          All my quals were done on 100y and under. Which ideally, a standard patrolman with limited training should probably limit themselves to if at all possible.

          I bought my own AR in the Mini’s absence since I do more training on my own and wanted something that could reach out more.

          • Kivaari

            From memory only, I remember a tally of sniper rifles used by police put the distance at ~70 yards. That was about 14 years ago. It may have been reported in either “Law and Order” or the NTOA magazine. A Mini-14 with a good 1-4X24mm scope would be a great rifle.

    • Kivaari

      The Mini 14s are easier to maintain. There are fewer things the cops can play with.
      I suspect most of those cops had never fired more than a few rounds.

  • Sianmink

    I see a stainless mini with original folding stock. Those are no longer cheap!

    • Kivaari

      Those are old, and they were never a very good stock. Our sheriff had 2 AC556 select-fire models. They got so hot, so fast, that after 2 magazines fired on auto, the things would cook off, essentially as fast as having the trigger pulled. Then NEW Mini 14s are great rifles. That horrible tube stock used 35 years ago, needs to be buried.

      • Bill

        BTDT, my current Mini has a factory plastic stock, though I wish I had my old folder as apparently they are worth more than they are worth. SOP with a AC556 should be to unload and lock the bolt open after sustained fire, I’ve also witnessed cookoffs from them. One got hot enough to melt one of those cheesy plastic clamp-on bipods.

  • Kivaari

    Full-sized M16A1s are not rare in police departments. Considering the feds sent thousands of them to local agencies. As well as M14 rifles. My little department received 2 of each. A nearby department received 7. The rifles were all in new condition and it wouldn’t make sense to spend the price of a new rifles adding short barrels, new handguards, or other trinkets. We had M4 carbines already. Before those MP5s. I know I would not hesitate to pack an A1. Being 4 inches longer and having a carry handle is a non-issue. Having an ACOG on top, is a great combination. If you like a red dot, like the EOTech, throw a #39 Swan ARMS mount on it, put the red dot out front. And it still has M1913 slots on top. Just don’t put a huge scope on top, as that is what destroys balance. Any agency that doesn’t like the M16A1 is missing the point. Having an 11.5 M4 carbine, may be handy, but then it needs a can, and glass, and all the add-ons. Except when you take a nice MP5 or M4 with all the rails, people hang junk on them. I loaded up an MP5 with all the latest SWAT gear and found out it handled like a 20 gallon milk jug. Same with an M$. Stripped they handle well, loaded with the “must have” lights, sights, pointers, 45 degree back up sights, forward grips and similar stuff made them handle like a 40 pound chunk of granite.

  • StBernardnot

    Once upon a time, in a land far away, I was given a free black plastic piece of crap. I would never buy one. My Mini works real good.

  • Anonymous

    I for one am so glad to see the CA police using suppressors, surely that means they will soon be allowed for the average person living there… no?
    Figures.

    • Kivaari

      California probably outlaws fake suppressors.

      • Cymond

        Actually, fake suppressors are useful in CA. A semi-auto carbine is illegal in CA if the overall length is less than 30″.

        • Kivaari

          That is actually an odd twist. An M4 having an 11.5″ barrel with the stock extended (as ATF wants on the forms) is 30.9 including a flash hider (not pinned). Collapsed 27.4 OAL. CA wont let me bring it into the state. But, I avoid CA. Last time there was to get my late chiefs car and drive it out of CA. Less than 24 hours later I was in a free state that has just turned on gun owners.

          • Cymond

            Yup, no SBRs in CA without a special permit that is “may issue” (basically for Hollywood or the truly elite). The main place the 30″ rule comes in is when dealing with bullpups. Most need an extension and magazine lock to be legal in CA.

    • Kivaari

      Maybe people with hearing loss can sue the state. I know cops and fire fighters that were awarded pensions due to loss of hearing. Cops from gun fire and sirens, and FF with sirens and big noisy trucks and pumps.

  • TDog

    Inserting just a little bit of politics here: we see now how much good passing laws restricting and banning firearms did.

    • Kivaari

      Remember, common sense eludes the anti-gun crowd. They hate the truth, and always deny that many people have used guns in self defense.

      • TDog

        Yep. They try to belittle the notion of a “good guy with a gun” because to them a good person is a crying rape victim or a dead child, not someone who successfully defended themselves or their loved ones.

    • UCSPanther

      Considering the amount of trouble that dreadful duo went to in their rifles, no amount of laws would have stopped their plot.

      • TDog

        Exactly. Bad people will do bad things regardless of what laws are on the books.

        • Kivaari

          They also had pipe bombs that if done right would have killed even more people. One pipe bomb taped to one gallon of gas in stairwell and elevators and chain-locked exits would do bad things. In VT shooting, the killer first chained the exit door. NO one could resist with adequate force, after all it was a gun free zone. No one carries in a GFZ. Well, except for the killers. I want the option to kill him.

    • Rock or Something

      Especially since these two Jihadists had their own IED factory in an apartment. Apparently, they even left pipe bombs to kill first responders after they left the building.

      • Unwelcome Rationality

        Don’t sensationalize. “IED factory” is liberal style hyperbole.

    • Sulaco

      March of Cambreadth

    • Travis

      What’s troubling me is that no one is calling it what it is—a terrorist attack. I mean, it was carried out by two radicalized individuals who pledged their loyalty to Daesh, right?

      • dbhm

        supposedly….

        • Kivaari

          Supposedly? Pretty obvious they were idiots following Islamic teachings. Does it matter? Not really. If they were bad guys killing innocent people, they needed to be stopped. Too bad 10% of the victims were not armed.

          • dbhm

            Yes, supposedly. The biggest problem is that Main Stream Media doesn’t like to go off script. There was at least one witness that was saying that the Hollywood attack was done by three white males in black military outfits.

            Same thing in Paris… witness stated that there were three white males driving a new black Mercedes. Neither one fits the story line that they were told to give.

      • TDog

        Yeah, but here’s the difference: in France, terrorists kill a bunch of people and the French ask, “Whose @$$ do we need to kick to avenge this?”

        Here terrorists kill a bunch of people and we ask, “How many more of our rights can we eliminate so we don’t offend the terrorists?”

  • Sulaco

    One has to be thankful that the area SWAT was training not far away from this and were training for just this type of event. The shooters had plans to move to another location and repeat the attack. The fast response saved lives. I have 35 yrs LE and 6 Mil. MP’s and I found the response of the area LE’s just AWESOME!

    • dbhm

      I see it as a coincidence that SWAT was “training” near by.

      If there were more armed citizens, then these people wouldn’t have gotten far anyway.

      • Sulaco

        It was coincidence, I think I said that. I am unsure about the citizens against trained jehadis with auto rifles. It might have worked out, it might have saved lives but the citizens would have had to be at least as well armed. What is your evidence for that? Links please. How many armed individuals have you gone up against in total?

        • dbhm

          So you are saying that citizens that are armed, do not train? They don’t know how to use the weapon that they feel that they are trusting their life to?

          I doubt that. And the jackasses that have been shooting this country are NOT trained Jihadists… Mentally unstable stooges? Yea, that I could believe.

          • Kivaari

            What is training for a jihadi? The San Bernardino two were trained enough to shoot-reload-and shoot again. It doesn’t take a scientist to learn how to hurt people. The average gun users I know could save lives. At least they are way ahead of the person that refuses to try. I’d rather have a 90 pound 80 year old grandmother trying to help, than have someone that doesn’t think armed citizens are a good thing.
            Were the two Muslims in San Bernardino crazy? Not likely. They were committed terrorists. Being a bad guy spurred on by an insane religion can hurt others. WE can interrupt their plans. Give those that want to have that option, have that option. The government has no reason to make good people into unarmed victims.
            There have been dozens of Islamic inspired terror attacks stopped by individuals and police.

          • Tom

            “There have been dozens of Islamic inspired terror attacks stopped by individuals and police”

            Israel, every day

      • bernardg

        Armed citizens? The last time i heard about it are the armed citizens got killed while trying to engage the shooter. Or accidentally killed innocent passerby. Not a good track record to brag about. I’m all about civilian bringing gun for self defense. But engaging with someone in crowded area? I’d leave that to law enforcement instead.

        • dbhm

          Greater Akron area

          Mugging victim

          CHL-holder R.O. was approached by four teens, one of whom was armed with a handgun. The armed gang demanded his cell phone and other property, police said. After giving up his cell phone, R.O. attempted to retreat from the situation, but the robber grabbed his arm. The CHL-holder broke free, pulled his gun and fired one shot, missing the teens, who took off running. The victim then ran to a pay phone, but before he could call for help, the teens approached him again. When a gun was leveled at him a second time, R.O. fired again, scaring off the armed robbers for good.

          Pizza shop robbery

          J.H. was behind the counter when 20-year-old Patrick Finney, wearing an orange ski mask, walked in and pointed a sawed-off shotgun at his head just before 8 p.m. A customer, an older woman from the neighborhood, was seated at the counter. “He said, ‘Give me the [expletive] money. This is an [expletive] robbery,” J.H. said. He cooperated, giving the robber a stack of $10 bills. But he said the robber wanted more and pointed the shotgun within inches of Hayes’ head. “As soon as I gave him the money, I pulled my gun out from my hip, pointed it and fired four shots,” J.H. said. Finney fell to the floor, then stood back up. J.H. fired three more shots from his Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol. Finney staggered outside, dropped the cash and collapsed across the street. He was taken to Akron General Medical Center, and died within the hour. An autopsy showed he was shot multiple times in the torso. “People don’t care. They take $100 and don’t give a [expletive]. They don’t want to be identified and so they kill you,” J.H. said. “I’m not going to be killed for $100.”

          Bank customer

          S.B. said her concealed carry training took over in the parking lot of her bank, when a man confronted her in broad daylight as she left the bank. The man pushed her into her vehicle, lay on top of her and said sexual things to her. “He was hitting me from behind, trying to force me into my vehicle,” S.B said. She struck the man with her elbow, then was wrestled down across the front seat of the SUV. While lying on her back, with her assailant atop her, the would-be victim arched her spine, opened the SUV console with her right hand and pulled out her firearm. “I said, ‘I got a gun. Don’t make me use it,'” she recalled. While the man tried holding her arm, she fired a shot out of the open passenger door. The assailant had enough. He ran off. S.B. was not injured. Police found her attacker, 23 year-old Billy Joe Covington, a few blocks away. He is a registered sex offender wanted wanted by police on escape charges.

          Parking lot ambush

          Two would-be robbers reversed course when their intended victim pulled out his own gun, Akron police said. The man, 23, told police he had just parked his car in a lot in the 800 block of West Market Street about 11:30 p.m. Saturday when two men in a nearby car donned masks and approached him. One of the would-be robbers opened the passenger-side door and pointed a gun at the man, police said. The victim, who has a concealed-carry permit, pulled out his own pistol, and both would-be robbers ran back to their car and drove away, police said. Police said they are following up on leads to identify the suspects.

          Robbery Victim

          Police say two men met a man and woman on East Market Street in Akron for the purpose of purchasing a PlayStation gaming console. The woman, Natasha Brady, reportedly asked the men to go behind a nearby house, and when they refused, the woman’s male accomplice then drew a gun and ordered them to hand over their belongings. The one victim, who has his concealed handgun license, was carrying his handgun on his hip and pulled it on the suspect. He told the robber to drop his weapon and get on the ground. The suspect left his gun in the driveway and fled on foot. Officers recovered a PlayStation box with a brick inside and the suspect’s weapon, which turned out to be a pellet gun, from the scene. According to the article, the woman has been arrested, but her accomplice has not yet been identified.

          Greater Cincinnati area

          Robbery Victim

          C.P. obtained his CHL due to previously being robbed. According to reports, C.P. was returning home when three masked gunmen, without warning, pulled up to his car and shot him three times. C.P. was able to return fire, hitting one of his attackers and causing the gunmen to flee. Published accounts credit his being able to return fire with saving his life. C.P. recovered from his injuries and was not charged.

          Attacked by car thief

          Around 6 a.m., B.H., 61, went outside to warm up his car before leaving for work and then went back into his house. B.H. noticed someone driving his car towards the end of the street. He grabbed his gun, went outside and waived his arms in an attempt to stop the car. B.H., with the car headed directly towards him, shot into the car killing the driver. Hamilton County prosecutor Joe Deters did not file charges, saying “You know, Florida had had concealed carry well before Ohio and the horror stories that were supposed to happen involving gun fights on the expressway never happened. This man could have been killed by this [driver]. He wasn’t. It was a shame that the [car thief] died in this incident. I feel badly for his family, but he was embarking in behavior that ultimately led to his death.”

          Lunch wagon driver

          Cincinnati police said two men tried to rob the driver of a lunch wagon, and that during the attempted robbery, one suspect fired shots. The lunch wagon driver then pulled out a .45-caliber handgun, for which he held a license to carry concealed, and shot one suspect in the leg, then held the suspect at gun point until police arrived. A warrant was issued for the robber’s accomplice. A neighbor speculated the robbers targeted the driver because he cashes checks on Fridays and is known to carry a lot of money.

          Robbery Victim #2

          When three men tried to rob someone with a concealed handgun license, the would-be victim fought back, shooting one of his attackers in the abdomen. The robber, who had stolen a cellular phone from the license-holder, ran more than six blocks from the shooting scene, dropping the cellular phone somewhere along the way. He finally dropped to the ground and was found suffering from a gunshot wound. The suspect was taken to the hospital, and he and his two accomplices have been charged with aggravated robbery.

          Iraq War Veteran

          Police said M.C. stopped on Boal Street just before midnight, apparently to ask for directions from another man outside the car, when an armed man tried to rob M.C. and his passenger. M.C., an Iraq war veteran, has a license to carry a concealed handgun and was also armed. He exchanged gunfire with the robber, who was shot twice in the stomach and was admitted to the hospital in critical condition. M.C. was shot once in the forearm, and was treated and released from a local hospital. His passenger was grazed by a bullet. Witnesses said three assailants fled toward the Pendleton area. Two guns were also recovered from the scene.

          Homeowner

          The Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office said Jason Hawk broke into a home in the 7000 block of Glendale-Milford Road just before noon, but was discovered when the homeowner returned. The homeowner, who has a concealed handgun license, took out his handgun and went around behind the home and met Hawk, who then attempted to flee. Deputies said the homeowner fired several shots, one of which flattened the left front tire on Hawk’s car. Hawk was arrested by officers a few minutes later. Police said the car had two televisions and four rifles in it.

          Robbery victim #3

          As a concealed handgun license-holder was getting out of his car, which he had parked in an alley before work at 3:00 on a Sunday afternoon, three males approached and told him to give them everything at gunpoint. The robbery victim did comply with the demands and gave the robbers his wallet. The robbers did not know, however, that the man who they were trying to rob was also carrying a gun. All three attempted robbers were shot by their victim with a .40 caliber Glock. One of the juveniles was shot in the face, one in the right shoulder, and the adult was hit in the lower left leg. The suspects then fled the scene on foot in different directions, but were later caught a short distance away by Lockland police. The three attackers who were shot were transported to the hospital for non-life threatening injuries in ambulances. Police say they are looking into charging them with aggravated robbery and possibly felonious assault.

          Homeowner #2

          Police responded to reports of a shooting at in North Fairmount around 11p.m. Upon arrival, they found Tommy Powell, 21, behind the The Villages of Roll Hill apartment complex. Police say, Powell had been shot and was transported to University Hospital where he died due to his injuries. The Homicide Unit said they believe Powell was breaking into a home at the time. According to detectives, the homeowner has a valid concealed carry license.

          Attacked in neighborhood

          According to police, Thomas McCary argued with a woman in his neighborhood about 7:30 p.m. in a Sunday evening. During the dispute, her brother, P.E., walked over to see what was going on. That’s when, police say, McCary pulled out a .38-caliber handgun and fired three shots at P.E., who was not hit. Fortunately, P.E. is a concealed handgun license-holder and had his firearm. He drew his gun and fired three shots, striking McCary in the leg. McCary went into his house and re-emerged with another handgun. With a gun in each hand, he fired three shots in the direction of the woman he was arguing with, her 1-year-old son and a third man. The victims retreated into their home to avoid being shot, while P.E. fired additional rounds at McCary to try to divert his attention. McCary was taken to University of Cincinnati Medical Center and arrested.

          Robbery Victim #4

          Police say an armed teen tried to rob one of two contractors rehabilitating a home when the contractor walked outside to retrieve equipment from a van. The contractor turned over his wallet. A second contractor came to the front door and saw what was occurring. The armed robber tried to rob him of his wallet, too, but the man – who has told police he has an Ohio concealed handgun license – pulled out his firearm. The robbery suspect fired several shots at the man, but the victim returned fire, striking the suspect several times. The suspect was pronounced dead at the scene.

          Oh.. let me look for examples…

          • Cymond

            There’s a big difference between a robbery and a mass shooting.

          • dbhm

            Not necessarily… The biggest difference is that only life is taken, and an agenda is planned.

          • Kivaari

            What do you call the Good Guys robbery, mass shooting? Many robberies become mass killing. When the crew of a Starbucks or an ice cream store get herded into the back and 6 are shot, that’s a mass killing. Every good adult that wants to use a gun for defense should have that option.

          • Cymond

            FWIW, I would attempt to shoot back if I came in contact with a violent situation like that. I never suggested that people shoulnd’t resist attacks.
            On the other hand, look at the examples that dbhm posted above and compare those to cases like San Bernadino, Newtown, UVT, Columbine, etc. There’s a significant difference between mundane crime for profit and acts of domestic terrorism.

          • Kivaari

            Not really, when a life is on the line. If drug addict robber wants to kill anyone, that potential victim is at the same risk as a student locked inside UVT. In either case having a gun for defense offers you a CHANCE to survive. In cases like Virginia Tech, you could possibly save yourself and 30 more people. Those that would deny anyone a chance to defend themselves or others just refuse to accept the facts. Good people with guns do save more lies than a person without a gun. Anti-rights people think those with guns for defense are paranoid – psychotic. I view them as being idiots.

          • bernardg

            Well, at least there are some good to counter balancing things. The reason with this is for “self defense”. The problem arose people substituting “self defense” as “vigilante”. Like i stated before, mostly ends up badly.

          • Kivaari

            Let me get this straight. If you might come into close proximity of the suspect(s) as you describe you are directed to do nothing. Good men and women evaluate a scene and try to take the correct course of action. Sometimes running away makes sense. Doing nothing is likely to get you killed. TRYING to do what is right, may not work. Not trying gets people killed. TRYING to help others is a good thing. You essentially say if confronted with criminal(s) do as the criminal demands. Well, that is how people get herded into freezers and shot behind the ear. NO, we refuse to be victims. WE may die, but at least we resist to the end. More times than not, the armed citizen will prevail. I am for armed citizens having any damn gun they like standing up to criminals and tyrants. Obviously, you don’t. Too bad for you.

          • bernardg

            Suit yourself.

          • dbhm

            I also agree that citizens should have any gun they choose to defend family and friends.

          • Kivaari

            Until circa 1850 there were few police. It was the citizens, and vigilance committees that came to the aid of the sheriff. Sheriff’s were operators of jails and civil process servers. Organized policing was a new concept. So don’t knock vigilance committees, as they still exist. They are rarely used anymore. Small rural places mostly use the sheriff’s posse to do search and rescue. Before the establishing of modern policing, your neighbors were enlisted to do the crime scene searches. Getting the power from a judge and assisting the sheriff. Modern policing is a bit better. But, unless you live in a metro area or a prison state (most of the NE) people are conditioned to remain victims. “Guns are just to scary”. “Gun owners are just wanting to kill”. People with guns NEVER help police or save lives”. “The streets will run with blood if we let them carry guns”. All those old lies that simply have not come to pass. We see mass killings simply because cannot get legally armed due to idiots in the government. GFZs kill innocent people. I do not want to be a victim. Considering I have saved others from harm, by being armed, gives me the idea that you never know when or where you may need a gun, so I carry one every where except to bed and in the shower. Now I am back to carrying 2 guns. Having to kill injured animals alone is a worthy thing.

          • Kivaari

            Excellent. The people that hate guns and gun owners refuse o accept good people with guns stop bad people with guns. WE citizens are the front line against gangster-ism. WE are the good guys. WE also have fewer misses than cops. WE also tend to end up engaged in criminal activity compared to other citizens and cops.
            Patrol Sergeant -RETIRED

        • Kivaari

          That’s quite off the mark compared to actual citizens involved gun use. Once in awhile a private citizen gets killed trying to help. Rarely are innocent bystanders being shot. private citizen involved shootings have a better “safety record” than police. The last case involving a prive citizen being killed, was the case in AZ where the man-woman couple killed two cops then ran to a Walmart. The citizen tried to stop the male shooter, but was shot from behind by the female partner. At least that man had the nerve-sense of duty-courage-willingness to put his life at risk in the defense of others. People such as yourself obviously lack what it takes to TRY to help. I know of a couple mall shootings where the presence of a private citizen with his gun ended the killing. Not without cost. In Tacoma, the citizen hesitated and was shot, and permanently paralyzed. The killer stopped hurting others, and surrendered. In the Oregon mall incident the citizen disrupted the killer, and the killer killed himself.
          Don’t under-estimate what an armed citizen can do. I find them to be some of our absolute best citizens- possessing character, missing in your kind.

      • Kivaari

        Having an armed citizen(s) around would screw with the police union. Good citizens with guns would stop so much crime the budgets would get adjusted down. I pack a gun and it doesn’t cost the government any extra money. It has worked since I stopped a knife attack-kidnapping and an assault with a pipe. People do this kind of stuff daily. We don’t often get mentioned, since it violates the medias obligation to hide the good deeds of armed citizens.

    • Dan

      It is quite an interesting coincidence. During the North Hollywood shootout in 1997, the SWAT team was also training at the time, so it didn’t take long for them to mobilize. Unfortunately, they left too fast that some of them are still wearing their sweat pants and shorts while wearing ballistic vests. You can see one of the SWAT team members in shorts in the last firefight of the encounter, when they engaged the 2nd suspect trying to commandeer a truck.

      • Kivaari

        The bulk of the SWAT unit was training across town. The rifles they used came from a gun store along with ammunition and shotguns. LAPD did not issue 12 ga. slugs to patrol officers. Sergeants had some, but as is usual were not well placed. After that LAPD accepted 600 M16A1 rifles from the feds. Enough to have them in supervisors cars. Every patrol car needs a rifle, SMG and a shotgun. A dedicated less lethal shotgun makes more sense to me. We issued MP5s and M4s in every patrol car. LA and similar departments do not want to spend the money it takes to equip and especially train the troops. Small town cops often have a better grasp of such things than do metro cops.

  • Rocket_Fiend

    May have an answer: Rifle with carry-handle mount is likely a DRMO acquisition. My department has several older rifles (m-16a1’s) with fixed carry handles.

    Guys like running them because they’re auto or burst. Fun on the range, useless in a gunfight.

    I just run my personal…never had much use for anything but semi.

  • NinthCommsBatt

    The mini 14 is a fine weapon for shorter ranges, meaning police work …but for the KDR or the battlefield OCONUS, its the M14!

    • CommonSense23

      Yeah, , not it really. Hard time holding zero, heavy, unreliable, M110 is a much better choice.

  • Gallan

    Choice of green was a wise give the guy who thought of it a raise. Much less intimidating than dark blue. And arguably less intimidating than tan.

  • Nimrod

    The best thing you can for the accuracy of any Mini is to replace the rear sight with a click adjustable, smaller aperture Tech Sight. Makes a big difference.

  • robocop33

    I have to tell you that seldom do my LEO Brothers bring me as much pride as the Officers that responded to the terror attack in San Bernidino did. There were Sheriff’s Deputies, City Police Officers from SBPD as well as Redmond and a few other towns in the area in addition to CHP, FBI, DOJ, Homeland Security, Parole Officers and anyone else in LE that had a firearm. They ALL worked together with nobody trying to take credit, or blame> They simply went about their job in a calm and efficient manner with exceptional professionalism. Quickly they learned who may have been the shooters and located them and then stopped them. Very proud of my Brothers and Sisters this day as always but THIS day was special as the country got to see how great they are.

  • DannyBoyJr

    I read that the terrorists were only able to shoot 76 rounds during the final encounter with police. I bet those silly CA bullet buttons and the stress of being shot at by police while driving an SUV made it darn hard to change mags during the firefight. It may be the only time the bullet button worked as intended by the CA anti-gun pols. Poor terrorists, they should’ve gone to Arizona for their ARs.

    • iksnilol

      I think they removed the bullet buttons.

      • DannyBoyJr

        No, I can still see the bullet buttons on the picture above. It is much clearer on the M&P15 but also visible in the DPMS.

        • iksnilol

          Maybe they modified them? Such as putting something in so that they didn’t need to use a tool or something.

          • DannyBoyJr

            They could do that, like the Mag Magnet. But if you look at the picture, there isn’t any. I believe that the terrorists are too stupid to get guns from a free state so they got CA legal AR-15s through a straw purchase.

        • Phil Hsueh

          I find it odd that they would leave the bullet buttons on, it’s not like they’re that hard to replace, just buy any regular lpk and you got yourself a normal mag release button. At the least you’d think they would have rigged a work around, oh well, good thing for dumb scum bags.

          • Dan

            Maybe they were gonna work on the bullet buttons as soon as they finish making all the pipe bombs and turning them into IEDs. Unfortunately (or fortunately) Rizwan got spooked early and went crazy before their plan was finished.

        • Kivaari

          I looked at them on 400%, and I can’t tell. Other reports said they had been reverted to a “real” button.

  • Unwelcome Rationality

    Wow. And anyone who obeys the law but doesn’t have a badge on their chest would be shot to death by these guys for daring to own weapons like theirs.