New Zealand Defence Force Replaces SIG P226 With Glock 17

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The latest step in the ongoing re-armament of the New Zealand Defence Force has been announced: The SIG Sauer P226 pistols that have served New Zealand servicemen and women since 1992 are to be replaced with new Glock 17 Gen 4 handguns, distributed via an Australian company. The announcement was posted to the New Zealand Defence Force’s website, and is embedded below:

New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) military personnel are to be issued with new generation Glock 17 pistols to replace the Sig Sauer pistols currently in use.

The new pistols will be introduced into service across the Navy, Army, and Air Force in the second half of 2016.

Lieutenant Colonel (LTCOL) Dean Paul of the Land Capability Delivery Branch said the Sig Sauer P226 pistols were introduced into service in 1992 and were due to be replaced.

“Ensuring we remain a force equipped to succeed means supplying our people with fit-for-purpose personal protection weapons. This is part of our 2020 strategy for enhanced combat capability and we are pleased to be rolling out the new pistols next year,’’ LTCOL Paul said.

Australian company NIOA Nominees Pty Ltd has been awarded the $1.8 million contract to supply the NZDF with about 1,900 of the new pistols. The contract includes the pistols, ancillaries, and through-life support.

The NZDF has been re-equipping its personnel with new weapons since the beginning of the decade. This began with the selection of a 7.62x51mm designated marksman rifle, the LMT MWS with a 20″ barrel (a rifle TFB friend Trevor Weston calls “a bloody good piece of kit”), and continued with the adoption of the 7.62mm Minimi to replace the 5.56mm Minimis then in service. Finally, recently the New Zealand Defence Force announced their adoption of the LMT CQB16 to replace their aging Steyr AUG rifles, marking one of the first (though probably not the last) times a military force has replaced a bullpup assault rifle with one in the conventional magazine forward layout.

NIOA Nominees Pty. Ltd. is an Australian sporting goods/firearms distributor, and will be handling the sale of the Glock pistols to the New Zealand Defence Force. They will be selling the pistols, and whatever ancillaries are included in the contract, for a little under NZ$950 per unit ($617.50 USD). Given this price, I don’t think the New Zealand taxpayer has very much to worry about with regards to his his or her money is being spent.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • Pistol Is Fine

    I don’t see how replacing pistols with grenades will help out .

    • Kivaari

      Grenades? I’ve never seen a Glock explode using the proper ammunition. I did witness one fire a double charge load. That did crack the frame, stung the hand and ejected the magazine. The cop continued firing the course, and only found the cracked frame while cleaning the pistol. Almost every Kaboom you see is the result of poor ammo. Others I’ve been involved with had bore obstructions. One real factory fail was the Tikka T3 SS, where the wrong steel was used. Glocks work.

      • BigFED

        Glock’s are TOUGH!!! Had a retired Deputy come in with his son to shoot with his old Glock duty pistol. He asked for a box of 9m/m ammo, no problem. Went out on the range, a couple of “bangs” later, he comes in and states that his pistol was “having a problem”. I go out to check and, yup, the problem is that his “duty gun” is a Glock 22 (.40SW) and isn’t handling the 9m/m ammo very well! I clear all 9m/m stuff I can see away from him and he loads up a mag of ammo from the NEW box of .40SW he bought from us and starts shooting, again. All of a sudden, BOOM, the son comes running into the sales area saying the gun exploded! Sure enough, gun was jammed up good with the slide back about ¾”. I clear the mag, but can only see parts of cartridge brass around he chamber, no live rounds. I CAREFULLY look into barrel muzzle and can see the distinct nose of a 9m/m bullet about ½” from the muzzle. The guy says “everything was going along fine until reloaded a magazine and found some ammo in HIS PANTS POCKET and put those a mag. Yup, top round was a .40SW, next round a 9m/m which fed, but failed to fire and he hand cycled the action which put a live .40SW round right behind that live 9m/m! BOOM!

        I was able to disassemble the pistol by holding down the take down bar and tapping the slide forward. The barrel had bulged just where the 9m/m would be if it were just in front of a .40SW. The bulge kept the slide from cycling (no kidding) so I was able to “rescue” the pistol by replacing the barrel.

        About the only brand as tough or even tougher are the old metal framed Ruger P series.

        • Kivaari

          That old cop was not very bright. How can anyone carry a “duty gun” and not know what caliber ammo it used? These are the kinds of cops that are clueless about firearms. Like watching an episode of “COPS” when they find a gun and are clueless as to how to check and clear the device. Just how do these people make it through the academy and a career without knowing what caliber ammo his gun used. Hand him a shotgun or M4 and they couldn’t show how to clear them, let alone shoot them.

          • BigFED

            Agree but I didn’t want to get into making a long story wven longer! He had/owned more than one pistol including a Glock 17 that he wanted his son to shoot. However, when he left the house, he grabbed the Glock 22 instead and didn’t check. At least that was his story.

            Another facet was that he was a really “old school” cop, like REVOLVER old.

        • JK

          If you gave it back to him, you didn’t “rescue” the pistol.

          • BigFED

            Agree, but it was in working order even if he wasn’t. It WAS his pistol anyway.

          • JK

            Just sayin’

        • buzzman1

          And this guy was a cop? What an idiot and someone let him breed.

  • Edeco

    I just hope they can get by with less bore axis height…

    • Anonymoose

      When you’re used to it, it doesn’t really make that big a difference, unless you want to go FULL OLYMPIAN.

      • Major Tom

        What pistol is that? Never seen anything like it before.

        • Anonymoose

          Mateba MTR-8

        • DIR911911 .

          you need to spend more time on the internet 🙂

        • Kivaari

          The question should be, “Why, is that a handgun?”.

      • iksnilol

        If they made it fire from the bottom chamber I’d buy it immediately.

  • Azril @ Alex Vostox

    “marking one of the first (though probably not the last) times a military force has replaced a bullpup assault rifle with one in the conventional magazine forward layout”

    I would say it was Malaysia that first replaced their Steyr AUG A1 and replaced them with M4 carbine.

    • Rich Guy

      China did also.

    • Grindstone50k

      They’re not Western/Anglo nations, so they don’t count.

  • Ryan

    Its interesting the Kiwi’s seem to adopt things after the UK does (excluding the CQB-16 of course)

    • DIR911911 .

      once a colony , always a (cough cough) . . . nevermind

    • HenryV

      I wish we back in the Mother Country got new kit as often as they do down there……..

      • Ryan

        NZ is getting some gucci gear these days, that new uniform is neato.

        • HenryV

          I am subscribed to their YT channel. Great videos. Put our RN ones to shame.

  • valorius

    my only question would be “why?”

    • Stuff gets old and needs to be replaced.

      • Bill

        And I don’t know if SIG could touch that price. But that price likely doesn’t include new holsters, mag carriers, armorer training , spare parts stocks, training development and uptraining and requalifying everyone. Sometimes a good price isn’t.

        I don’t know what shape their SIGs are in, but I dint think I’ve ever seen one worn to the point that it couldn’t be rebuilt.

        • “Australian company NIOA Nominees Pty Ltd has been awarded the $1.8 million contract to supply the NZDF with about 1,900 of the new pistols. The contract includes the pistols, ancillaries, and through-life support.”

          • Bill

            I dunno, maybe NZ forces are small enough that they can do that, and I’ve heard of companies throwing in initial training for armorers and instructors and maybe spare mags, but a company couldn’t do that for an agency like NYPD for example and stay in business.

      • valorius

        I have a beat to hell police trade in Sig228 made in West German in the 80s, and it still outshoots almost every gun ive ever owned.

        With regular maintenance sidearms can last literally forever.

    • Gidge

      They were due for new ones. With military handguns it’s usually the cheapest option that meets their minimum requirements. Handguns for mainstream armed forces are considered backup weapons so requirements are usually centered around reliability and their accuracy requirements are set at very close range. This is why Glock get so many military contracts.

      • G.K.

        It could just be that the Glock is the better design for a military weapon, but I forgot it’s cooler to be anti-Glock then ever admitting their products can actually be that good for some people.

      • valorius

        Due why? A properly maintained sig will last literally decades.

    • maodeedee

      “Why?” That’s what I say about trading in Steyr AUG’s for AR15’s. Glocks for SIGs I can understand.

      • G.K.

        Because the LMT CQB16 is a vastly superior rifle to AUG?

        Not a hard decision.

      • valorius

        I dont understand either move.

  • Lance

    Right choice major upgrade from a pistol with bad trigger pull to a nice easy striker fired pistol. Unless they want NY triggers on them. LOL

    • john huscio

      No such thing as a bad Sig trigger.

      • maodeedee

        Except for the first shot. try shooting a 1911 sometime. Or a SAO Sig. Perfect trigger from the first shot to the last.

      • G.K.

        The trigger on a 226 is around 10 pounds after the first shot.

        What exactly is your definition of “bad”?

        • John

          The P226 is 10lbs on DA and 4.4 on SA. That is from the Sig web site.

    • Jeff S

      I’ll take a SIG’s DA/SA any day over a striker fired pistol…

      • Grindstone50k

        Better not join the NZDF then.

      • BigFED

        I prefer the SIG DAK option. No “transition” (da to sa) and about 6# consistant pull! Like shooting a great DA only revolver.

        • Doom

          but that is what the glock has…lol, a super consistent 6 pound pull… Though the initial take up is kind of squishy the reset and break are very nice even on a stock trigger.

          • G.K.

            5.5 Pounds if you want to be really technical.

          • BigFED

            I have a HK VP9, SIG P320, Glock 19, and have shot almost all the other comparable major brands (Walther, S&W, etc) and the worst trigger is the S&W (Model, especially that over glorified SV M&P series) with Glock not far behind! I say this as a 50+ year gunsmith/armorer on guns of all kinds, and Glock’s since 1992 and SIG since 2010.

            The being said, if trigger pull, reset, high bore axis and that host of other “issues” are affecting ones ability to hit the target, YOU ARE AT THE RANGE, NOT IN A GUNFIGHT!!! If one is claiming ANYTHING else, they are NOT paying attention where it matters!!!

            There are those that, no matter how bad the firearm, can shot and there are those that, no matter how good the firearm, can’t shoot!!!

      • maodeedee

        “I’ll take a SIG’s DA/SA any day over a striker fired pistol…
        “Why? –what’s so great about a pistol that has a hard trigger pull for that first all-important shot and then a much better and more consistnt trigger pull for after you miss with the first shot?

      • G.K.

        Have fun with that 10 pound trigger pull after the first shot I guess.

    • nadnerbus

      I’ve never heard anyone say the Glock style striker fired trigger is better than almost any decent traditional hammer trigger pull. I love my Glock too, but the trigger is not its selling point.

  • Kivaari

    An excellent choice. As much as I like SIGs, the Glock makes a better service pistol. Training with the 17 is easier than the P226. A P226 will deliver better accuracy at 50m simply due to the excellent SA trigger pull. BUT, needing to use a handgun at 50m is not that common. G17s are simply, simple to use and maintain.

    • Yallan

      Also submachine gun kits for the glock, 22lr version of the glock, 30 round magazine and plenty of people who modify the guns. It really can’t be beat, Australian police should have adopted it instead of the S&W MP

      • Kivaari

        I have never understood why anyone would want a select-fire pistol. Besides having fun running a couple of magazines through one I’d rather pack a SMG like an MP5 or Mini Uzi.

        • buzzman1

          Glock 18s are a hoot to fire but they are for people who can learn to fire 3 rd bursts.

          • Kivaari

            A friend has a registered rear plate conversion. It’s pretty useless except for fun. Even if we could lawfully buy a Glock 18, I think I would pass on it. There is simply no desire in me to have a pistol that goes rippppp! Now the Beretta M93 with a folding stock and a 3 round burst is more interesting. But I can’t stand Beretta company. A Mini Uzi, I would buy. I had two Uzi SBRs. The mini was fantastic. I could hit 8×10 plates at 100m off hand, all day long.

          • buzzman1

            I’m not a Glock fan but to each their own. The full auto 18 is pretty much useless until you get the 3 rd burst down, Then its a triple tap. For me I’d never own a full auto pistol because I couldnt afford to feed it.

      • GOG

        Every Australian State Police issues a different pistol.The Feds issue Glock 19s .Only 2 States issue the M&P.The rest use various Glocks.The ADF uses Browning and HK USP.

        • Richard Lutz

          The M&P was issued because they can (and are) fitted with a thumb operated safety catch and magazine disconnector, thus reducing the chances that a gun snatcher will be able to use them. The M&P is vastly better for police use IMO due to this safety advantage, while their grip design makes them better suited to a wide range of users.

          • Kivaari

            We found that a trained officer was the best safety device to be had. We did not have negligent discharges with Glocks. A few with the M4 in the hands of the females. It was all too much for them to remember to clear the rifle before dropping the hammer. No sheet metal damage. Years ago one of our shot a hole in her Vega with a M94. We had been gifted a mint M94. It actually made a better weapon than our shotguns.

          • Richard Lutz

            Training is crucial as you say, but I would much prefer a M&P with a manual safety catch and magazine disconnector to any Glock if I were a police officer or security guard who carried their pistol in an exposed holster.

            Love the M94 , but I think the M1 Carbine is the best long gun for police cars due to its lightness, rapid fire ability, and excellent stopping power with soft point bullets. The New York City Police Department’s Stakeout Unit used them in the 1970s and they never failed to nail a perp, thus outperformed all their other guns including shotguns (‘Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights: Lessons and Tales from a Modern-Day Gunfighter’, Paladin Press, 1996). They can be readily fitted with a red dot sight and QD flashlight.

          • Kivaari

            NYPD also used M92s in .44-40 for decades. I used an M1 or M2 carbine much of the time. They are excellent little guns. For about 10 years I was issued an MP5A2 (I had told the chief not to buy the A3). Over the years there were quite a few guns in the cars. I also used the AR180 and in the last year of so 2001-02 we had M4 carbines. Just iron sights. Lots of shotguns. The last place I worked for 10 years we went to work with 5 guns. A Glock 17 or 19, S&W M642 in a pocket, MP5 or M4, M870 with rubber baton and a .22 rifle for animal control (wounded deer etc). Due to out major tax source blew up and closed, the department almost dissolved. I had retired twice by then so it didn’t bother me. I don’t like the manual safeties on handguns. They can work well, and have saved a few lives when a grab happens. I wouldn’t have a magazine disconnect, you may need to shoot it single shot. Moving from revolvers to Glocks was just a natural for we old-timers. You drew the gun, aimed fast and squeezed off rounds. Instead of 6, it was 15 ( as I always carried 15 per mag, regardless of ability to have 2 more. Having 15 rounds sure beat having 18 revolver rounds. This was before HKS speed loaders came around. I had the advanced Grogan Speedi loaders. They were great, and I still have them.

          • Richard Lutz

            Had a Glock 17 years ago when I was a pistol club member and it was a great weapon, but I never felt comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber as I felt like it was an accident waiting to happen. If I were to carry an auto I’d choose the M&P with a safety for open carry or a DA auto like the SIG P239 for concealed carry.

            How would you rate the M1 Carbine against the MP5 and M4 for general police use and civil defense use by civilians? Seems to me that the MP5 is underpowered for such use while I never much liked AR type rifles. Some say AKs rule but they are a bit big and heavy for smaller adults and people who are injured or ill.

    • nadnerbus

      Glocks aren’t magic, but they have the same thing going for them the AR15/M16 does. It is an extremely proven design, thoroughly debugged and tested, and used by many police and military units around the world, giving them a very clear track record to check. It’s just hard to go wrong with either design, unless the user wants something more specifically tailored to their needs.

  • Jeff

    I fired a NZDF SIG once in a casual shoot. Terrible trigger. Just awful. Hope the Glock is better use of my tax dollar.

    • G.K.

      I’d describe it at the the very least as a more consistent trigger then the 226, though it get’s so much better if you’re willing to spend a bit more on a trigger kit, I mostly use the Ghost EVO series.

  • Chris M

    I’d take a Sig 226 over a Glock any day. Not saying the Glock is terrible, but IMO Sig >Glock. In my experience Sig triggers are excellent (yes, even the DA trigger). And the bore axis is a non-issue. I compete with a Sig P220 in .45 and keep up with the guys running Glocks and M&P’s in 9mm.

  • Ed Forney

    $947 each for 1900 Glock 17’s ?? What a ripoff !!

    • 6.5x55swedish

      Mitary contracts usually include services and gear. So then they say they have bought X amount of guns for Y amount they include all new cleaning equipment, extra magazines, instruction training, manuals, holsters etc…

      • MR

        Plus, it’s $617.50 US Dollars, which is pretty good if it includes support gear and accessories.

        • nadnerbus

          That’s what I was thinking. Out the door, that is cheaper than I can buy a single factory new one in California (bad example as that may be), much less spare mags, parts, and servicing.

    • SAmt

      Military budgets also include estimate cost over its service life.

    • maodeedee

      That’s New Zealand dollars. $617.00 USD Don’t you people know how to read?

  • Aaron E

    What?! A Sig being replaced by a Glock? Is this the sign of the Apocalypse?
    Actually I think it makes perfect sense. As noted, the Glock is extremely simple to operate, field strip, and is very durable. Getting away from a DA/SA hammer fired pistol is very sensible for a military, and Glock is proven in combat and law enforcement.
    Sig makes an outstanding pistol, and for DA/SA systems they make one of the smoothest. However, Glocks are consistent – and that’s a big deal.

    • buzzman1

      Aaron, A lot of soldier couldnt be trusted with a 1911 and you want to give them a Glock?

      • maodeedee

        That’s a training issue.

        • buzzman1

          Although it is mostly a training issue, there are a lot of other issues including head space and timing issues with the soldier.

          Soldiers primary weapon is a rifle where you are taught to put your finger on the trigger immediately. Most people cannot mentally make the switch when they draw their pistol.
          NY police couldn’t keep their fingers off their glocks triggers which resulted in negligent discharges as they drew their weapons. Now they have 12 lb triggers which are horrid for accuracy.

          Have Gock keep its drop safety but add a grip safety. It would reduce negligent discharges and end limp wrist malfunctions.

          And even effective training isn’t worth jack if the soldier doesn’t get to shoot his weapon regularly.

  • maodeedee

    I’d like to see the US military go to the Glock 20 and issue two types of ammo; A reduced load for general use and a hot load for barrier penetration and special forces usage. Glocks are reliable and durable and their magazines are equally so, and the gun itself is a snap to field-strip. The Kiwis made a wise decision.
    Sigs are very well made and they are accurate. But in DA/SA “crunchenticker” configuration they are less accurate for that all important first shot.
    A single action only Sig is where it’s at. Only then would I spend close to four figures for a handgun. Otherwise I’m very happy with my Glocks, after my Gunsmith has done trigger jobs on them, which made them more DANGEROUS if you don’t understand that your brain is the only really effective safety and know enough to keep tour damn finger out of the trigger guard until the moment that you bring your sights to bear on your intended target.
    All guns are inherently dangerous. They wouldn’t serve their purpose if they weren’t.

    • BigFED

      Glocks are great, but the 10m/m is a no go. Logistics would be a major issue (even the enemy probably uses a 9m/m) so grabing spare ammo… And then there is just the added weight of humping the heavier, per round, ammo around. And two different loads, not practical. Not all FBI agents are wimps, but their brief adoption of the 10m/m was quickly abandoned for the .40S&W. Most “failures” of the 9m/m are due to using FMJ and most other countries do NOT allow HP or other performance ammo!

  • buzzman1

    Its easy to see why they went to Glock because its half the price of a Sig at the store. But at almost $950 per Glock makes you wonder how good a deal they got.

    • maodeedee

      That was $950 in New Zealand dollars. More like $617 in US dolalres

      • buzzman1

        Thanks. It wasn’t specified. That brings the cost to reasonable for what they are getting. I personally don’t like Glocks but that doesn’t make it a bad pistol. They are cheep and reliable and in this current economy its a not a bad choice. Now they just have to buy the right ammo for them to do the job.

  • Takki

    Same pistol as used by NZ Police.

  • Jason Bourne

    I don’t know where the photo at the top comes from, probably just a stock photo. But, man! It sure does resemble an American GI circa the early to mid 1940’s. Or, is it just my eyes playing tricks on me?

  • Kevin

    Even at $617.50 (USD) per gun, Glock is stick making a boatload of money, it costs them around $75-$100 to manufacture each pistol. Tupperware guns are easier to produce and bring in deeper profits than their all metal counterparts.

  • CavScout

    New Zealand is also adopting the LMT MRP in 5.56. Now if that doesn’t show they want some NICE, quality gear; then nothing will.

  • Richard Lutz

    The Gen3 is better than the Gen4, while the Model 19 is better than the Model 17 as it is easier to carry, especially if concealed (an important consideration for off-duty carry).

    The Gen4 version has a slightly narrower grip that accepts backstrap extensions, has a more aggressive gripping surface, a double recoil spring to reduce recoil, and a magazine release that can be reversed, but is not best for military use.

    The 9mm round does not need a double recoil spring, while the Gen4 pistols do not have full parts interchangeably with the earlier variants (incompatible recoil spring, slide and magazine release), and cannot use magazines made for the earlier pistols unless the magazine release is configured for right handed users (this configuration is useable by left handed users), while the backstrap extensions are of little practical benefit. Service pistols that will be used by different people should all have the same grip shape with the magazine release in the same position.

  • BigFED

    On the Sheriff’s Office I worked for, WAY back in 1970, had shooting incident where the Shift Lt and Sgt were the first involved. The Lt. carried his M10 and the Sgt. had a brand new Dan Wesson Model 12 .357M. Both the Lt. & Sgt went through the ammo in their guns AND the “spare” 12 rounds on their belts. They started getting MORE ammo out of their attache cases from the back seat and the Lt ended up finding out WHY .357M ammo didn’t work in the M10! Luckily some of us were close by and came to the rescue before it became a deciding factor!

    • Kivaari

      We finally just issued .38 specials. At the time Super-Vel came out and it was great, except for the brilliant flash. Take two shoots in the dark, and it took 5 minutes to get your night vision back. If we carried batons as a routine, I suggested we replace them with white canes. When I went to 9mm for one month it was just too much for the chief. e made me go back to a revolver. I could outshoot every officer on the force using the M39-2. It bothered administrators that I liked to carry my AR180. People, cops, were afraid of them. If a cop, like me showed an interest in better guns, they labeled us as
      “gun nuts”. Having your DA trigger pull smoothed up, meant you were wanting to get in a gunfight. That same mentality exists today. Cops with ARs and Bearcats are too militarized. Ignorance runs rampant through the police administrations, the county and city councils and public. In 87 we adopted MP5s and put them in the patrol cars. We had to do a demonstration for the city fathers. I brought my 10 and 11 year old sons along. They were the ones yelling “muzzle discipline” at the idiot councilmen. Those boys outshot most every adult present. An 11 year old firing a full auto burst of 10 rounds into an x-ring was showing how good of a choice we had made.

      • BigFED

        I know I am way older than you, but we may have crossed paths sometime. We had a Deputy that bought an AR-180 back in 1971 on our SO. Ironically, I just sold mine a couple of months ago.

        As a “Reserve” Deputy (unpaid), the Sheriff gave me some latitude since we paid for all of our gear. I had carried my Colt (a REAL Colt) 1911 since my first LE job in 1962 (Federal Game Warden). Ended up pretty much the same as you except I got to keep carrying my Colt. If any other Deputy wanted to carry, they had to tie or beat my qualification score. Left two years later, still the only auto on the department. It had NOTHING to do with how good I was, it was how BAD the others were! Not once in the two years I was with the department did i ever meet another deputy at the range other than during quals and I went about once a month. Also ironic that you mentioned “Super Vel”ammo as that is what I carried. Still have a partial box of 20 in .44Mag somewhere around the house.

        • Kivaari

          I started in ’68. Left for Vietnam service, then back in ’70. Working as a deputy and one of the first 5 original cops in a new city. I eventually left for other things, coming back in ’88-’92 as an instructor, then back to patrol in ’92-’02. We also used Norma soft point. It had issues in some guns, as the primers were very tough. So the gun would go click instead of bang. Even in full-sized service guns like K and N frame Sits and Colt Troopers and Pythons. Norma did fix that. I was shooting a match a few years ago and ended up not having enough ammo I broke into my reserve “just in case” ammo in the truck. It was OLD Norma. .38 Special that was close to .357. I could use a case of it.

  • John

    “Ensuring we remain a force equipped to succeed means supplying our people with
    fit-for-purpose personal protection weapons.”

    TRANSLATION = Glocks were a lot cheaper.