Krag Jorgensen Run and Gun (Hardest One Yet)

The Norwegian Krag Jorgensen rifle was adopted by the United States Army as the Springfiel model 1892 and marked the transition of America’s military into the smokeless powder era. The Krag is strange by today’s standards with a few unique features, but how does it fair on the run and gun course?

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Alex C.

Alex is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Director of TFBTV.


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  • Gjert Klakeg Mulen

    The norwegian version in 6.5x55mm is probably better at reloading, using a rimless cartridge and all

    • Gjert Klakeg Mulen

      Also, a speedloader made for shooting clubs.

      • ostiariusalpha

        Yeah, with the speedloader, the Krag action often outshines the Mauser guns in Norwegian Stangskyting competitions.

        • MonoChango

          Wow were do you get a speed loader, does it work with the 30-40 and how does it work?

          • ostiariusalpha

            The speedloaders that are commonly available are for the 6.5×55 chambered Norwegian Krag-Jørgensen rifles. I’m not aware of any new production loaders, thusly you have to deal with them being collectors items as far as price & availability. They’re not all that rare though, so it’s not that tough to wrangle a few in decent shape. The U.S. Krag had some experimental prototype loaders, but I wouldn’t hold out much hope of seeing one for sale at any of the auction sites.

          • Secundius

            @ MonoChango.

            Company is called Anderson & Braathen – Kongsberg (www . kvf . no)…

    • Marginally I’m sure, but the the loading gate thing is still an very inferior design to stripper clips, detachable mags, or even en-bloc clips. I guess it has an edge over a kropatschek tubular mag.

  • Don Ward

    Nice slick video Alex, as always. As I’ve mentioned before, it’s a pity you couldn’t get a Mills Cartridge Belt for the ammo. Can’t wait for the next installment!

  • Bob

    You are correct, soft point ammo can be a problem, especially short 180 SP.. Rifle will run flawlessly with 220FMJ, and even 220 Match Kings. I shoot rifle and carbine. No issues with correct length loads.

    • ostiariusalpha

      Soft point aren’t much of a problem as long as the bullets are round nosed, those spire points can be a menace though

      • Bob

        The American Krag is such an iconic firearm in US history. Very accurate, and a pleasure to shoot. And remember, we beat the Spanish with our Krags and Springfield 1873/1884’s.

        • Hyok Kim

          U.S. beat the Spanish with better artillery and the navy, and the logistics. I like Krag. U.S. Doughboys were outmatched by the mauser wielding Spanish. Small arms didn’t matter that much in winning a war as much as before.

          • Dave C

            “Doughboy” referred to U.S. troops on the U.S.-Mexico border during the 1910-1917 Mexican Revolution and then became applied to AEF soldiers in France and Italy.

            The U.S. beat the Spaniards because they attacked an already largely defeated conscript-army in a colony that had become a “failed state” over three miserable, terrible, disease-ridden years of counterinsurgent warfare. The two principal naval battles: 1 May 1898 Manila Bay and 3 July 1898 Santiago de Cuba reveal the relative asymmetry of the U.S.–a rising world power, and Spain–a imperial power on whom the sun had set a very, very, very long time ago…

          • Hyok Kim

            “Doughboy” referred to U.S. troops on the U.S.-Mexico border during the 1910-1917 Mexican Revolution and then became applied to AEF soldiers in France and Italy.”

            Yep, I had it mixed up with ‘Rough Riders’. I was having a brain fog.

            “The U.S. beat the Spaniards because they attacked an already largely defeated conscript-army in a colony that had become a “failed state” over three miserable, terrible, disease-ridden years of counterinsurgent warfare. The two principal naval battles: 1 May 1898 Manila Bay and 3 July 1898 Santiago de Cuba reveal the relative asymmetry of the U.S.–a rising world power, and Spain–a imperial power on whom the sun had set a very, very, very long time ago…”

            All true, in terms of grand geopolitcal military strategy. My comment was more on military matters. U.S. had better navy, during those days, the naval superiority was like today’s air superiority. U.S. also had better artillery, a very under-rated military component, especially by lay people.

            But Spaniard had mauser, while the ‘Rough Riders’ had Krag. Mauser was a better military small arms. There lies my point, having a superior infantry small arms ceased to be the deciding factor in winning battles, much less wars.

            So lies my complaint that some people make too much of infantry battle carbines, in winning wars.

            “We need better battle carbines, and the ammo to win the war in Iraq, and Afghanistan, etc!”

          • Dave C

            Ah, I see.

      • Bob

        Capt. Allyn Capron first KIA in Cuba.

  • Bob

    You need one of these 🙂

    • John Doe

      That is one classy rig…..love it.

  • Wolfgar

    I thought you did pretty good. I know it is not the best rifle but there is something about the side loading Krag Jorgensen rifle that makes it one of my favorites.

    • Swarf

      Yeah, he certainly did better than I was expecting, given that loading system.

  • Tim Kies

    I live in Michigan. I have hunted whitetail deer all my life. the only one I killed with a rifle, rather than a shotgun was with a 30-40 krag. Sporterized. I have given it to my son, a U.S. Navy sonar tech. He collects us military weapons. He just bought his first M-1 Garand this past May. He also went to a WWII re-enactment in Ohio in July.

  • Burst

    Fare, not fair. Like bus fare.

    The root of the word is as if something is traveling through fortune itself.

    Are there any areas where the Krag is superior to the later M1903?

    • MonoChango

      The bolt is very smooth and super fast. It is easily the slickest bolt action I’ve ever shot. But because it only has one lug it can’t develop the same chamber pressure as the 1903.

      • marathag

        But does the average Rifleman really need 30-06 power levels?

        .308 and 30-40 Krag aren’t that far apart in performance

        • Burst

          Honestly, probably not.

          A more conservative assessment might have had us hang on to the .30-40, in newer designs.

          • marathag

            After all, British and Japanese didn’t have problems using rimmed 303 in machine guns, belt and magazine fed.
            The to cartridges are very similar in power, and with a slightly stronger action, 30-40 can be loaded to .308 performance or even 30-06

            30-40 cartridge was fine, change in bullets, of course, just like changed the 30-03 to 30-06

          • Dave C

            Actually, I think the Brits did have some problems with the Bren LMG due to the .303 cartridge rim… Of course the weapon itself was utterly sound, and used by the Germans, Chinese, etc. etc. in the ZB26/30 guise. Postwar, rechambered in 7.62mm, it continued in service…

            The Soviets used their 1891 and updated 1908 Russian cartridges, and the rimmed cartridge continues in use with the SVD and PKM and so on. That might offer an analogy of how U.S. weapons might be had the .30-40 cartridge been retained…

    • Hyok Kim

      Smoother bolt

  • votan

    the cool thing about the krag’s mag is that there is no rim lock no matter how the cartridges are dumped in.

    • I can assure you they are susceptible to rim lock.

      • votan

        I’ve shot krags for 30 years and never had rim lock happen to me and read that the mag design prevented it. the krag is one of my favorite rifles and very underrated. cooper called it a rifle without vices. either way, a fun video!

        • ostiariusalpha

          You can certainly get rimlock with 30-40 Krag if you load the magazine wrong. I’ve never done it, but I can easily see it happening if you’re clumsy about loading more than one round at a time.

          • MonoChango

            Again it is easier to do with modern ammunition. The Krag was designed to use a much larger bullet weight than most commercial ammunition companies will manufacture now days. The longer bullet meant that the bullet would ride the front of the magazine making it really hard to cross the rims. If it did rim lock it would also push the bullet at an very acute angle and the door will not shut. However, modern ammo has itty bitty bullets that let the cartridge move forward and back letting it rim lock much easier. In combat the stripper clip wins, but if you are at the range or out hunting it isn’t a problem.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Who exactly are you talking to? I’d think it was fairly obvious that I already have a Krag-Jørgensen, so you can’t seriously be so stupid as to believe that I’m unfamiliar with how they nestle in the magazine. I load 220gr round nose bullets for mine and, yes, I assure you that you can indeed shut the trapdoor with a couple of the rims on the wrong side of each other. I just checked.

  • MonoChango

    I love my great grand dad’s Krag. I’ve been shooting it now for about 20 years. The “Rim Lock” problem wasn’t as bad as most people think. We see it more now days because all the commercial cartridges you can buy use a 180 grain spritzer bullet. It wasn’t designed for that. Originally it used a massive 240 grain 3/4 jacketed with a soft lead round tip. Dang thing looked like your pinkie sticking out of a elongated 30-30. It didn’t have room in the magazine to rim lock. I mean it could, but it was really hard to do. That said, it was still much harder to handle loose rounds than a stripper or box.

  • MonoChango

    Incidentally, This is my SHTF gun, for two reasons. 1: It is the only gun of sentimental value. 2: If I can see it, I can kill it. That 30-40 is a big boy round. It’s long range ballistics aren’t great but it can put a lot of energy on target. The Krag has the smoothest action of any gun I have ever fired so if you have the chance. I highly recommend taking one to the range.

  • Lance

    Next try a 1871 trapdoor, Alex!

    • Fegelein

      Seconded!

  • SP mclaughlin

    So you can still civilize ’em with a Krag….

    • Hyok Kim

      Hmmm, I don’t think one individual with a Krag would want to face a
      juramentado charge at CQB range. there were instances where one Moro absorbed as many 32 rounds from a Krag.

      • ostiariusalpha

        They were shooting cupro-nickel jacketed ball rounds at the time. FMJ has always been garbage for creating immediately disabling wounds; more modern ball rounds that either fragment like 5.56 M193 or tumble like 5.54 7N6 are at least better than the 30 caliber sized ice-pick injuries that the 30-40 Krag, 30-30, and 30-06 ball rounds made.

        • Hyok Kim

          “They were shooting cupro-nickel jacketed ball rounds at the time. FMJ has always been garbage for creating immediately disabling wounds; …………”

          Only immediately disabling wounds by easily man portable small arms is caused by hits in the vital zone.

          “…….more modern ball rounds that either fragment like 5.56 M193 or tumble like 5.54 7N6 are at least better than the 30 caliber sized ice-pick injuries that the 30-40 Krag, 30-30, and 30-06 ball rounds made.”

          Let’s not confuse dirty, very hard to treat, and/or soon to be terminal wound with immediate disabling wound. They are not necessarily the same thing.

          The stopping power (other than hits in the vital zone) from a rifle caliber bullet is caused physiologically by hydrostatic shock of the high velocity of the rifle caliber ammo,

          I remember reading an anecdote from a Vietnam vet who had shot a female Vietcong several times with M16 who kept shooting till hit in the vital zone. She was supposedly 5/2″, 120lb soaking wet.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Ah, but that’s the point of an expanded wound track, a hit in the vitals is much more immediately disabling. With non-fragmenting, non-tumbling ball rounds, even hits in the vitals area can be disappointingly slow to disable; that’s why no one uses them for hunting. And, as you indicated, hits outside the vital zone will bleed more profusely if the round causes a messy injury by fragmenting or tumbling, which is not a bad thing considering the number of Taliban that survived the nearly useless injuries that M855 causes to non-vital areas. The M193 your Vietnam vet acquaintance was shooting is better than other ball rounds, but it’s still a ball round and does not reliably break up in flesh all the time. Assuming it wasn’t a head shot, even a good center mass shot would be a tiny bit of a gamble whether or not the bullet did what it was supposed to do. He should have counted himself somewhat lucky that she went down on the first well-placed shot he finally got in.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Ah, but that’s the point of an expanded wound track, a hit in the vitals is much more immediately disabling.”

            Expansion can only come at the expense of penetration. The law of physics. Penetration is always more important than expansion of wound channel. FBI Miami shootout was the proof of that. Had the initial 9mm fired penetrated more at the expense of expansion, that would have been the fight ender right there.

            “With non-fragmenting, non-tumbling ball rounds, even hits in the vitals area can be disappointingly slow to disable;”

            Bullets are more partial to fragmentation and tumble are less likely penetrate deeper than bullets otherwise, given everything else equal. Like I had said, penetration is always more important than the ‘width’ of the wound channel.

            “…….that’s why no one uses them for hunting.”

            Hunting and small arms exchange in the battlefield have different criteria. By that reasoning, military should not use .50 BMG since they’re very rarely used (if at all) in hunting.

            “And, as you indicated, hits outside the vital zone will bleed more profusely if the round causes a messy injury by fragmenting or tumbling, ……….”

            One should always strive to look at both pros and cons. True, fragmenting and/or tumbling will always cause more bleeding than bullets not designed for either, given everything else equal, but it also penetrates less. Like I had said, penetration is always more important.

            “The M193 your Vietnam vet acquaintance was shooting is better than other ball rounds, but it’s still a ball round and does not reliably break up in flesh all the time. Assuming it wasn’t a head shot, even a good center mass shot would be a tiny bit of a gamble whether or not the bullet did what it was supposed to do. He should have counted himself somewhat lucky that she went down on the first well-placed shot he finally got in.”

            There is no substitute for reliable weapon, and on the field marksmanship, enough penetration, and hits in the vital.

          • ostiariusalpha

            Wow, that was a big ol’ plate of stupidity you just layed out there.

            1. The 1986 Miami Shootout investigation did not consider the penetration of the 9mm FMJ rounds inadequate, it was their stopping power that wasn’t considered satisfactory. In fact, 9mm ball often over penetrates even large torsos, creating in-and-out wounds. 9mm sized holes though are not much better than 30 cal sized holes for dealing relevant injuries to vital or non-vital areas.
            2. No rifle round has ever had problems with penetration on any human, regardless of the bullet type used, and wound channel trumps penetration every time. That’s just a plain ignorant statement.
            3. What the f*ck is wrong with your brain, dude?! 50 BMG is a anti-material round, the military wouldn’t spend money on something that overkill if it was just being used for anti-personnel purposes. And hunters use rounds that are every bit as powerful as 50 BMG when hunting dangerous game; you can also find any number of pictures on the internet of hunters successfully using 50 BMG to harvest animals, but most don’t use it out of concern for, that’s right, overpenetration.
            4. No, penetration is almost never more important. As long as you reach the center of the vitals and don’t make shallow, cratering wounds, the wound channel width is of foremost importance.
            5. The reliability of the weapon is not pertinent to the bullet’s terminal performance, and there are plenty of substitutes for good riflemanship; like machineguns, mortars, and grenades, just for starters. Again, penetration has never been a problem for rifle rounds against humans, your obsession with that is bizarre and has no basis in reality.

          • Hyok Kim

            “1. The 1986 Miami Shootout investigation did not consider the penetration of the 9mm FMJ rounds inadequate, it was their stopping power that wasn’t considered satisfactory.” – ostiariusalpha

            FBI Miami shoot out didn’t involve 9mm FMJ. They used HP, and it didn’t penetrate enough, expanded perfectly, though, and that’s what it caused the lack of stopping power.

            “In fact, 9mm ball often over penetrates even large torsos, creating in-and-out wounds. 9mm sized holes though are not much better than 30 cal sized holes for dealing relevant injuries to vital or non-vital areas.” – ostiariusalpha

            “As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove’s 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s eventual death”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout#The_shootout

            Had they used 9mm FMJ instead of HP, it would have gone through the heart, ending the fight right there since it penetrates better than HP.

            “2. No rifle round has ever had problems with penetration on any human, regardless of the bullet type used,………” – ostiariusalpha

            …….but the rifle round might have to go through barricade and/or cover, not just thin air. That degrades rifle bullets’s (or for that matter, any bullet) ability to penetrate deep enough to reach the vital zone.

            There is also another way to use battle carbines in battle, especially in built-up areas. One fires battle carbines at the backdrop of one’s opponent so that the bullet would bounce and hit the opponents from the back and/or side, or below the barricade, if there is enough clearance to bounce the bullet and hit the opponent from below, all through ricochet, very useful if the opponent is firing behind barricade. That was the technique some of the LAPD used during the BOA robbery in the North Hollywood in the 90s.

            Obviously bullets designed to fragment or tumble easily would fall apart before hitting the opponent through ricochet.

            “…. and wound channel trumps penetration every time. That’s just a plain ignorant statement.” – ostiariusalpha

            ……..nope, according to the latest FBI ballistic research, it has been concluded penetration is more important than wound channel ( in the sense of the ‘width’ of the wound, both permanent and temporary).

            “3. What the f*ck is wrong with your brain, dude?! 50 BMG is an anti-material round, the military wouldn’t spend money on something that overkill if it was just being used for anti-personnel purposes.” – ostiariusalpha

            “There have been persistent reports of a belief among some members of the United States Armed Forces that the use of .50 BMG in a direct antipersonnel role is somehow prohibited by the laws of war. This is incorrect and has been characterized as a myth; writing for the Marine Corps Gazette, Maj. Hays Parks states that “No treaty language exists (either generally or specifically) to support a limitation on [the use of .50 BMG] against personnel, and its widespread, longstanding use in this role suggests that such antipersonnel employment is the customary practice of nations.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG#Legal_issues

            “And hunters use rounds that are every bit as powerful as 50 BMG when hunting dangerous game; you can also find any number of pictures on the internet of hunters successfully using 50 BMG to harvest animals,…………” – ostiariusalpha

            …….and that’s why I had qualified,

            “By that reasoning, military should not use .50 BMG since they’re very rarely used (if at all) in hunting.” – Hyok Kim

            ……as you yourself implicitly agree, but not necessarily for the same reason.

            “…. but most don’t use it out of concern for, that’s right, overpenetration.” – ostiariusalpha

            ………so you think most hunters would use .50bmg if it could be made not to overpenetrate?

            Recoil, weight/expense/size of the gun, expense of the bullet has nothing to do with why most hunters would not choose .50bmg?

            “With non-fragmenting, non-tumbling ball rounds, even hits in the vitals area can be disappointingly slow to disable; that’s why no one uses them for hunting.” – ostiariusalpha

            Hunters use fmj in where legal.

            Since your reasoning was that people only use effective bullets for hunting, and since hunters do use fmj in hunting where legal, that undercuts your hostility againt fmj for military anti-personnel purpose, doesn’t it?

            “4. No, penetration is almost never more important. As long as you reach the center of the vitals and don’t make shallow, cratering wounds, the wound channel width is of foremost importance.” – ostiariusalpha

            “The wounding factors, in order of importance, are as follows:

            A. Penetration:

            B. Permanent Cavity:

            C. Temporary Cavity:

            D. Fragmentation:”

            http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

            “5. The reliability of the weapon is not pertinent to the bullet’s terminal performance, …..” – ostiariusalpha

            ……but it does when it comes to overall combat effectiveness. After all, what good is the best terminal performance ammo, if it causes more malfunction in a significant sense in the weapon than other supposedly less terminal performance ammo?

            or you are not worried about overall combat effectiveness?

            “…and there are plenty of substitutes for good riflemanship; like machineguns, mortars, and grenades, just for starters.” – ostiariusalpha

            ………but I thought here we were talking about pretty much on battle carbines.

            By your reasoning above, then why are you even obsessing about the terminal wound performance of battle carbine bullets?

            But anyway, which one would run better in a MG, fmj, or hp? and which would be more cost effective, especially in the long run?

            “Again, penetration has never been a problem for rifle rounds against humans, your obsession with that is bizarre and has no basis in reality.” – ostiariusalpha

            “They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#Penetration

            “Wow, that was a big ol’ plate of stupidity you just layed out there.” – ostiariusalpha

  • Hyok Kim

    As much as I like Krag. Can you imagine carrying one into a sandstorm or muddy trench, or subzero blizzard?

    • iksnilol

      Considering it was made in Norway, yeah, the blizzard is no problem. Only real problem with it (the original Norwegian ones) is the asymetrical locking, which means that when the action or the ammo is wet it changes POI.

      • Hyok Kim

        “Considering it was made in Norway, yeah, the blizzard is no problem.”

        Germans in Stalingrad has their Mausers Frozen stiff. Would Krag have been better?

        What about sandstorms,and muddy trenches? Wouldn’t be fun shooting that Krag from prone, with sand, mud getting inside that loading gate.

        “Only real problem with it (the original Norwegian ones) is the asymetrical locking, which means that when the action or the ammo is wet it changes POI.”

        Thanks for the info. I didn’t know that one.

        Btw. I think maybe another advantage of Krag (especially when shooting from prone) would be one could load the ammo without blocking or disturbing the sight picture ( at least as far as iron sight, and stripper competitions) Also, for a lone sharpshooter, one who doesn’t have the logistics support of average infantryman, slower loading wouldn’t be as much as handicap.

        Also, being able to carry and load loose rounds, without mags means one could carry more ammo per the same weight.

        • iksnilol

          I dunno, I just know people in Svalbard both use Mausers and Krags with no problems. Any rifle will freeze shut if moisture is around the bolt to freeze.

          Also, that loading gate is as big of a problem in regards to reliability as the magwell on an AR. In other words, no problem at all.

          • Secundius

            @ iksnilol.

            My Grandfather, was a “Forced Conscript” (2nd Republic/Slovok/Hungarian) in the German Army at Stalingrad. It was the German Issue Lubricant that was the BIG ISSUE. After Acquiring some Soviet Standard Issue Gun Lubricant. His 98k Mauser, worked Just Fine in the Brutal Soviet Winter Campaign…

          • iksnilol

            That’s some handy info, I wonder what lubricants the Germans and Russians used?

            I know people living further north than me recommend very small amounts of grease.

          • Hyok Kim

            “That’s some handy info, I wonder what lubricants the Germans and Russians used?”

            Lubricants helps, but design is more relevant. P38s didn’t jam even in Stalingrad due to its smoother lock design when Mausers jammed.

            “I know people living further north than me recommend very small amounts of grease.”

            Yes, it works also in the sandy environment as well. However, I’d rather have my reliability based on design rather than what lubricant I’d use. Such as Finnish Lahti. More foolproof. Also, in very cold weather, I read that corrosive ammo is more reliable.

          • Secundius

            @ Hyok Kim.

            TOLERANCES! The P08 Luger was designed to the 1/10,000 of a Inch standard, while the P38 was designed to only 1/1,000 of a “Inch”. Typical Russian Weapon of the time, EVEN LESS. About 1/100 of a “Inch”…

          • Hyok Kim

            Tokarevs still jammed even with dry lubricant if it got cold enough, whereas P38 didn’t even with water based lubricant even in Stalingrad.

            Tolerance (or lack thereof as far as frost induced reliability is concerned) is merely one factor, not necessarily the most important one.

            It has more to do with the inherent mechanical smoothness of the action.

          • Secundius

            @ Hyok Kim.

            The P08 Luger, Jammed even in Warm Weather, Humidity caused it to Jam. Some German’s claimed, that Just Looking at It caused it to Jam…

          • Hyok Kim

            “The P08 Luger, Jammed even in Warm Weather, Humidity caused it to Jam”

            P08 wasn’t exactly a ‘smooth’ mechanism. It has lots of contact points during lock up, even more so than Browning tilting barrel lock.

            It’s not the humidity by itself that causes jam. It may contribute to rust, which could cause jam, through wear, and extra friction.

            Metal expands in warm, hot weather, internal contact points go through extra pressure, friction due to metal expanding, causes are different, but the end effect is the same as extra friction caused by the frost.

            “Some German’s claimed, that Just Looking at It caused it to Jam…”

            Never heard of that one. Must be a joke/commentary on the amount of jam in P08.

          • Secundius

            @ iksnilol & Hyok Kim.

            The German Army of WW2, used Ballistol (Ballistic Oil) or White Mineral Oil (Water Based) first formulated in 1905. Made by FW Klever GmBH of Aham, Germany.

            The Soviet Army of WW2, used Russian Standard TY 38.1011315-90 (Oil RZh). Which is a “DRY” Lubricant, rated to -57C…

          • iksnilol

            That explains a lot, water based lubricant and winter doesn’t seem like a good combo.

            Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Any rifle will freeze shut if moisture is around the bolt to freeze.”

            True enough, but some rifles design might have better protection against the moisture collecting around the bolt. Actually, I wonder whether Krag would be superior to Mauser when it comes to frost induced jams since it’s smoother. For example, whereas Mausers got frosted in Stalingrad, Walther P38s still worked fine, whereas Browning tilting barrel lock design was not as smooth, as jammed when it got frosted unlike P38.

            “Also, that loading gate is as big of a problem in regards to reliability as the magwell on an AR. In other words, no problem at all.”

            I understand that they are both openings where the outside elements can get into. But there is a difference. The loading gate the outside elements would get in from the top, assisted by gravity, whereas the magwell in AR, the gravity is far less of a factor.

            Still, I wonder whether Krag would be a better rifle for a dedicated lone sniper of a jager variety (instead of modern day sniper who is in constant contact with other troops).

            I read that German jager snipers wrecked havoc with the American troops even to the last of the war.

            Jager snipers, (alone, no spotters )would infilitrate deep inside the enemy front line and station himself between the communication and supply route between the front line and rear base, and cuts down messengers and/or the supply troops, slowly isolating the forward front line troops, sometimes reducing them into little pockets, demoralizing them, sometimes leading them into surrender. Based on what I read, they didn’t necessarily even use optical sights, just plain old iron sights.

            Believe it or not, this happened sometimes during 1945 when the war is clearly almost over.

          • iksnilol

            Smoothnes might have something to do with it, might be because of fewer lugs to freeze? I don’t know.

            Was comparing it to AR magwell because while it is an opening it is closed for most of the time, but I do see your point.

            Those Jäger snipers seem interesting. Jäger means “hunter”, so I can sorta see the lone wolf mentality. Won’t surprise me that they used irons, back in the day optics weren’t as good and hassle free as they are now. + you’d be surprised what you can do with some good diopter and globe sights and sufficent sight radius.

          • Hyok Kim

            “Smoothnes might have something to do with it, might be because of fewer lugs to freeze? I don’t know.”

            Might be. P38 locking has fewer point of contacts than Browning tilting barrel lock. I did notice that P88 which is a variation of Browning tilting barrel lock with extra point of contact, had noticeably more friction than traditional Browning tilting barrel lock.

            Btw. Tokarevs (Browning tilting barrel lock variation) jammed even with Soviet lubricants when it got cold enough. I read it from one of the Solzhenitsyn books.

            “Was comparing it to AR magwell because while it is an opening it is closed for most of the time, but I do see your point.”

            I think for a well-trained, motivated, and experienced jager, loading gates would not be much of an issue. Just like Canadian Ross rifle, very jam prone in the hands of average infantrymen, but the snipers (obviously better trained, motivated, and experienced) loved it.

            “Those Jäger snipers seem interesting. Jäger means “hunter”, so I can sorta see the lone wolf mentality.”

            Being able to act alone deep inside the enemy controlled territory means not being able to be supplied for extended period of time, so fast loading would not be much of an advantage, making sure every shot counts would be far more important, also lighter weight, (sans the mags, clips), also, less visibility when firing, (no clips being ejected high), there lies my appreciation for Krag for this kind of scenario.

            “Won’t surprise me that they used irons, back in the day optics weren’t as good and hassle free as they are now. ”

            Also, iron sights gets less affected by rain. And believe it or not, that’s when messengers and/or supply units are more likely be sent due to reduced visibility, less danger from enemy snipers, so the conventional thinking goes.

            Also, iron sights weigh less, which is very important for a jager sniper, as little weight as possible

            “+ you’d be surprised what you can do with some good diopter and globe sights and sufficent sight radius.”

            I agree. I read many Finish snipers relied on iron sights instead of optics. In the thick forest of Finland, magnification would not be much of an advantage, but being able to get away fast after shooting would be.

            I read that both German and Finish snipers put the premium at extreme accuracy at short to medium range as opposed to less than extreme accuracy at extended range ala American style.

            The reason being, every time a sniper shoots, he’s risking his life by announcing his presence, and possibly the location.

            So the sniper must get his target in the first shot, or get as many of his targets as fast as possible before being able to get away so that the surviving enemy cannot pin point the location

            Also, at short to medium range, there is less variation between POI and POA than at extended long range. Also, in the thick forest, there is less chance of bullet path being affected by the leaves and branches.

            Personally, I think this kind of jager style shooting (as opposed to typical competition style long range shooting) is far more relevant, especially for small countries defending against big nations. Also, this kind of training can easily apply to man portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, especially of optically guided ones. They’re cheaper and more reliable than heat seeking or radar guided ones, and also more survivable for the operator than radar guided ones, since the radar guided ones can be easily traced by the enemy.

            Only issue with optically guided ones is that they require more training, and steady hands than more advanced ones. Jager style sniper training would definitely help.

            Imagine a small nation full of jagers, armed with anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles.

  • Tassiebush

    Gosh that action looks incredibly smooth! My fantasy rifle just became a .17wsm chambered mini krag.

    • ostiariusalpha

      That would be pretty darn slick! Now I want one too.

      • Tassiebush

        Yeah in fact just a short action spanning that up to .223 would be darn spiffy!

        • ostiariusalpha

          That’s your best idea yet! I don’t know if the side gate would be entirely necessary (though I personally would be very keen on it), nevertheless that butter smooth bolt manipulation in a micro action would be a perfect fit. The single bolt lug may not be ideal for full power cartridges, but for intermediate cartridges (especially on modest bolt thrust rim diameters like 5.56/.223) it would be a varminter’s dream come true. Even as a light & handy, detachable mag fed, survival or ranch rifle, it would make a nicely competitive option.

          • Tassiebush

            Yeah agreed on all those things! (Including best idea lol) I like the idea of the side gate but the bolt is the biggest plus. Whatever mag set up was used it’d be great if it was a good one that was either detachable or quickly topped off to make full use of the speed.
            Totally like the idea of a very handy sized toughly built carbine.
            I sometimes ponder the idea of a bolt action with a side mounted mag that ejects sideways and takes a charger or a clip. Have the benefits of a very solid area to mount the scope and those fast loading systems without the cost of magazines. Handling and balance trade off might be a bit too much though.
            Ramblings and speculation aside it seems a single lug bolt could be the way to make a cheap but smooth and quick boltaction.

  • A

    What does the magazine spring look like? I don’t get how it can both feed the cartridges in one instant and then be out of the way the next instant when the latch is opened.

    • ostiariusalpha

      The magazine follower is a swinging arm, the leaf spring that keeps the side gate shut does double-duty as the follower spring.

  • Rock or Something

    I noticed they kept their thumb and index finger on the bolt to cycle and used the pinkey or middle finger to pull the trigger. Very neat technique.

  • Mc Cain

    Looks like a reloading nightmare.

  • Tim Kies

    the old days of the need for a heavy duty, high powered battle rifle for every rifleman are pretty much history, as far as I see it. it just makes more sense to issue the M-4 and allow the operator to carry more ammo. With our air firepower, long drawn out firefights are not what infantry units typically look to become involved in for the most part. They usually will seek out the enemy, and then will call upon air support to take care of the rest. Please note I have said usually and typically, not always.
    As far as the 30-40 round, I am somewhat certain that it was replaced because it was underperforming in actual field conditions. For deer, it is quite adequate.
    As for underperforming, my uncle was a lifer in the army, fought in Korea and Vietnam. Only firefight was in Korea against Chinese. He was a communications guy, so was armed with an M-1 carbine. Shot this Chinese dude at about 100 yards 3 times in the chest, the guy kept on coming. Eventually, the guy fell down, my uncle said he had on a quilted vest like they used to wear and he could even see the dust fly off where he hit him. That was the only time he was ever scared in either place.
    As far as stopping power, a handgun 9mm does not develop enough kinetic energy to be all that efficient. A 30-06 rifle in any kind of bullet, loaded at normal velocities, will create a very large wound channel, provided the hit is somewhat centered in the torso. However, all people are different. A 50 BMG has such a large temporary wound cavity that any hit on the torso will literally create such a large wound channel as to blow the person in 2 pieces.
    Please remember, I am just a guy with a keyboard and an internet connection with an opinion. Nothing I say should be looked upon as gospel. However, I think most of it is correct. I have learned all of this from reading, not doing. Therefore, the information is available for others to look for if they are interested. I was never in the military, I have never shot anyone, hope I never have to, but I respect those of the firearms community who were in the military, and those who post on the net and in books, so people like me can learn, and perhaps engage from time to time.

  • Dave C

    Como? No M1893 Mauser 7x57mm v. Krag-Jørgensen .30-40 comparisons like the recent Mauser v. Mosin?

    Both of the rifles, M1892 Krag and M1893 were cock-on-closing propositions, yes?

    Good job storming Sam Hill there! A neat “run n’ gun” certainly.

    Next up: M1870 Remington rolling block v. Trapdoor Springfield?!