AR-15 Forum Myths to Stop Perpetuating

Capture

Funker Tactical spends some time with a former Marine grunt reviewing the myths that are common spewed forth on the various gun forums. Typically, they are based in pseudo-fact and quasi-bullsh*t rooted in (in)experience.

They include:

  • Resting your magazine on the ground (monopod). Yes, you can put your weight on it and a in-spec magazine should be able to take it and keep functioning.
  • Hand on your magazine well. Assuming you do not put your thumb up, you can hold it all day long. Heck, the Corps taught me this was a great way to hold a rifle, especially while standing and attempting to get the best bone-to-bone contact.

As always, TFB is here to be your bullshido filter.

“Editor note: We aren’t talking about a specific forum just the topic which comes up in discussions.”

 



Nathan S.

One of TFB’s resident Jarheads, Nathan now works within the firearms industry. A consecutive Marine rifle and pistol expert, he enjoys local 3-gun, NFA, gunsmithing, MSR’s, & high-speed gear. Nathan has traveled to over 30 countries working with US DoD & foreign MoDs.

Nathan can be reached at Nathan.S@TheFirearmBlog.com

The above post is my opinion and does not reflect the views of any company or organization.


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  • DL

    Hear Here! Good observations Teacher, Butt, STOP PICKING ON OUR RIFLE. We enjoyed the way the soldier could grasp the worn out A1’s by the barrel and shake debris from the loose fitting (and noisy) parts. We had Hunert MPH tape. Sure, the magazines might suddenly spew the top five rounds out. Yes, we lernt to know just how to embrace each rifle to allow bullets to zing through tracered smooth barrels. (just to barely qualify Marksman at 25M) You are correct that anyone other than an armorer (or an SF Weapons Man) would get UCMJ’d for disassembly/dis ass ambled/dizassembaled (you know what my brain wants to say) the trigger assembly. Sure, we stared at the new thirty round magazines the DoN were fielding. (then they fielded the clipped 3×30’s for the auto riflemen and confirmed they were poofs) We each had our own secret methods of coercing semi-automatic firing to strike in the vicinity of things we had permission to shoot. Oh sure, the black hats and the USAF would show up and remove factory new rifles from their wrappers just to make us gasp and believe in Tio Sambo. I actually had two almost new magazines that I cherished and keep secret. (I named them Heckle and Jeckle) If it wasn’t for them…well, I’m not going to share that with you. Now please excuse me while I study those new rifles. (and weep)

    • wedelj1231

      “English, motherf*cker! DO YOU SPEAK IT!?”

      • Abram

        That wasn’t English, per se; I reckon it was Nostalgia-ese. Unreadable, since I wasn’t ‘There’.

        • John Shore

          I got it. It just took some time. I am fluent in several Americanese dialects, and also have several really cool sexual abilities that I can’t share with you. Wrong gender, you see. 🙂

    • El Duderino

      “We each had our own secret methods of coercing semi-automatic firing to strike in the vicinity of things we had permission to shoot.” I can’t tell you how much I love this line.

      After 4 years with a well-worn M16A2 I was shocked at how much better my parts-built 20″ AR was/is. It was a bit like the time when we received several brand new M240s and needed punches to get the pins out. This was a wholly new experience since our M60s pretty much disassembled completely with a nod and a soft tap of the knuckles. We took our unit’s Remington 870 “riot guns” out one time…one of the barrels flew off with the first shot. Don’t get me started on SAWs.

      Outside of a few “special” units most make do with crappy small arms.

      • iksnilol

        That ruins my impression of you Americans a bit. :/

        • El Duderino

          Most militaries don’t use their weapons enough…they are for show. In the US we use them too much and clean them way too often…they get worn out fast.

  • Mike

    at Ft Benning infantry school, we were TAUGHT to use the mag as a monopod.

    • McThag

      At Fort Knox, for tank school, were were taught to never monopod.

      Looking back, though, I think that the poor dilapidated M16A1’s we were using would have malfunctioned if we’d put weight on the magazine. Those guns were very near the end of their lives.

      • Mike

        Yeah, we were qualifying with Aimpoint red dots by then, too, and zeroing/ shooting based on newer “Asymmetric Warfare Group” input. Didn’t know the difference at the time.

    • milesfortis

      I was ‘monopodding’ 25+ years ago. I think that was before the term had even been invented. Some senior NCOs may have noticed it, but no one ever brought the subject up.

    • Xanderbach

      I’ve noticed that people that bad mouth the magwell grip have never served in combat, where basically all of us used a magwell grip. While the high-thumb “driving the rifle” grip may be useful, it’s also tiring. Holding an M16 by the magwell was alot less tiring, so it was constantly used. And as one of the most effective military’s in the world, I guess that counts for something.

      • Mike

        There seems to have been a fairly recent shift in shooting ideology. I’ve been going to the range out here (AFG) with some guys from the ODAs and they all shoot with their arm all the way out front. One guy explained to me that they used to train to keep their arms in and close to the body (magwell grip), but that it causes too much muzzle pivoting while moving and shooting, whereas the extended arm helps control the muzzle while shooting and moving (not to be confused with shooting, then moving lol).

        • throwedoff

          I don’t see it. The further you move an appendage away from your body the harder it becomes to control with your fine motor skills. When you add weight, it becomes even harder. Don’t believe me? Take a five pound weight. Swing in front of you with your elbow bent a 90 degrees. Now extend your arm out and swing the weight again. If your AR is not loaded down with accessories that make it muzzle heavy, then the balance point is usually in the area of the magazine well or just behind it which makes the muzzle weight neutral when the rifle is held near the balance point.

      • nadnerbus

        In Iraq, where so much of the fighting was house to house, and troops got to and from the fighting in various tight-quarters vehicles, the mag well grip honestly made a lot of sense. Keeps the whole package small and easy to maneuver.

        • brainy37

          That doesn’t actually make everything more compact and in fact slows you down. Rather than rely on your arms to manuever the weapon you rely on the core muscles. Your entire trunk has to swing the weapon into position and stop it as well.

          People do that because they’re not used to using their arms for so long as they get tired easily. Holding by the magwell means that they tuck their arms in and only balance the weapon on their hands. It’s much less tiring and provides a stable stationary shooting stance but very bad when doing any sort of moving. Recoil and overcompensation means rapid fire is also pretty bad.

          TL;DR- trading comfort for effectiveness

        • wclardy

          The size of “the package” is defined by the size of the rifle, not how far short of the muzzle you grip it.

          Also, if you study vector mechanics, you will see that you actually have to use more muscle power to adjust the direction your weapon is pointed, because by applying your muscle power at the forward edge of the magazine well instead of out on the forestock, you have reduced the length of your own levera-arm by 6-12 inches. In order to compensate that reduction in leverage, you will need to push the magazine well up to 50 percent harder to move your barrel the same distance. And when you’re pushing harder, you’re usually also giving up some fine-motor control as well, so there goes your ability to aim as precisely.

          Those are the reasons why using the magazine well as a foregrip doesn’t make sense.

          • throwedoff

            When I am adjusting the direction my weapon is pointing in, I’m usually doing it by rotating slightly at the waist or repositioning my feet along with rotating at the waist. It takes more energy and strength to hold your arm out away from your body than it does to hold your arm in close to your body bent at the elbow as you would when using a mag well grip.

          • wclardy

            The factor that you’re overlooking is that you’re swinging a stick, and you’re trying to precisely control where the end of the stick is pointed. A millimeter-sized jiggle at the halfway point is doubled at the far end, while the same amount of jiggling three-quarters the way out is amplified much, much less.
            As to how much energy and strength it takes to hold your weapon up, the key there is remembering to relax when you’re not actively aiming. You scan for targets with your eyes, not your rifle sights — unless you really like the idea of self-inflicted tunnel vision.

  • Grindstone50k

    “McNinjas” I like it.

    • Simcha M.

      Yeah, I chuckled at that one, too! I also love “tacticool”; it’s my new word to describe many bozos at a gun show!

      • John Shore

        There’s always my favorite, ‘Tactical Tyrannosaurus.’ THAT is pretty much the ultimate in tacticoolness.

      • Bob

        No, those are the ammosexuals.

      • CavScout

        People using those phrases are usually exactly that stereotype. Makes them feel like they’re separating themselves from the goober crowd.

  • Bosch

    Not a jam exactly, but pushing down and forward on the magazine too hard CAN activate the bolt hold open on the last loaded round (one early) I notice it every now and again while shooting 3 round groups. Not gun breaking, but thought I’d throw it out there.

  • Will

    If it’s stupid but works…it’s not stupid!

  • Bill

    Grasping the front of the magwell has a lot of advantages, particular at speed in close ranges. We are mechanically stronger when our arms are bent and close to us, so from a stability, control and retention standpoint it makes far more sense than extending the support arm out straight, to supposedly control barely-existent recoil. Being essentially underneath near the center of gravity of the rifle the support hand also does exactly that – support, as opposed to trying to bear partial weight of the rifle by grasping it from the side.

    It’s essentially a built-in VFG

    • nobody

      >Grasping the front of the magwell has a lot of advantages, particular at speed in close ranges

      Have you ever tested it side by side with gripping further out on the gun? I don’t think you have, you have less control over the gun and are more likely to overshoot a target when transitioning between targets quickly. No complaints about the magwell grip for longer range shooting, it’s great for that, but it isn’t ideal if you have to transition between targets quickly.

      • Xanderbach

        In combat, surprisingly, targets didn’t present themselves rapid fire like on a 3-gun range. Magwell grips, reloads where you just duck behind an obstacle and reload normally, full-auto suppressive fire… All things not considered “tactical”, yet we used such things alot.

      • Bill

        Fill a 5 gallon bucket with water. Then extend it out at your support/reactionary arm’s length as if you were fully extended on the fore-end. See how long you can hold it it. Then try “transitioning” from one target to another.

        Next, bring it in to where your reactionary arm is bent maybe 45 degrees “under” it, or as under it as you can get with a bucket and repeat.

        While you are at it, try transitioning between targets by pivoting at the waist and moving your reactionary foot as needed.

        Then hold the still-full bucket out at full arm extension and have somebody fight you for it. Watch what your arms and body will do automatically

        If it works for you, great. But it doesn’t enable me to cover a suspect for 45 minutes waiting for backup, or do a stealth entry or clear a large, multistory building. It may work very well in competition, but I’m thinking in terms of time and biomechanics.

        I neglected to mention that the maxwell grip comes somewhat close to mimicking the 2-hand grip of the pistol, mine at least, so I have some commonality while operating different weapons.

        • CZFan

          comparing a 5 gallon bucket that weighs over 40lbs full of water to an 8lb gun is asinine. Id love to see someone actually get that much weight out at full arm extension at all, let alone for any period of time ( musclefreaks dont count, I dont care what you can lift when you are using steroids and cant wipe your own ass)

          I use both, If I am going to be shooting offhand with my 18″ “SPR” I will hold it by the magwell, its easier to support using bone structure, and you can do it for longer remaining stable, without lactic acid fermentation (burning) then shakes.

          If I am going to be shooting my Ultralight AR (6lbs 9oz with full magazine) and doing something like competition or a carbine course with alot of transitions I will hold it at the end of the handguard. But if I take that same ultralight gun and want to shoot groups at 100 or steel at 300 I will bring my grip to utilize my bone not muscle.

          Both have there place, the problem with the magwell grip is on guns with tons of crap hanging on the end especially m16’s and even short m4’s , once you put a light, laser and fore grip on those ridiculous quad rails, there is alot of weight at the end of that gun and it becomes very hard to start and stop quickly and accurately when holding it at the magwell.

          Instead of trying to say what you should always do, realize they both have merit, for close quarters where you need to swing that barrel quickly and accurately to get shots on target and not sweep friendlies use the extended arm grip. If you are posted on a corner watching a street and will be there for 45 minutes, bring your arm in and relax it a little, you can still easily track targets, especially at longer range where your barrel moves a few inches not a few feet.

          One thing I started doing and I suggest all shooters who like to run and gun or compete do is to buy 2 8lb weights, hold one like a pistol grip in the same position as your AR grip, and the other extended out like a close handguard grip, then move to a middle handguard grip and then nearly full extension. If you do this for 10-15 minutes a day while moving and “room clearing” you will quickly build the “AR” muscles, dont forget to switch sides.

          After you can walk around your house a few times without getting tired and keeping your “gun up” and you have moved out to the full extension grip with the weights, either add more “laps” or bump up the weight, I am using a 12lb front and 15lb rear at the moment, and its kicking my ass, especially when looking up the stairs and climbing them holding the weights up and “ready to fire” above my head. But after that picking up my 10lb “SPR” feels like nothing.

          I saw those Brazilian BOPE police/paramilitary troops doing that as they trained, they would get into full kit and practice building clearing with weights instead of guns.

          Tagging that onto the end of your normal workout, or just by itself will payoff huge in just a few weeks.

          No amount of weight training will allow you to not get tired, but having good upper body strength with lean and flexible muscle, not bodybuilder freak show arms, and with good endurance will certainly make holding a carbine or rifle out at the end of the handguard easier, for longer periods.

          But even then I still use the “short grip” when long periods of time, long range, and accuracy are required. Its just good fundamentals, it has nothing to do with whats “the correct tactical opinion of the week”

          • Bill

            The 5-gallon bucket, which should weight approximately 40 pounds, is for illustrative and example purposes only – to demonstrate that we are stronger close-in to our torso and when we can use bone instead of muscle to support weight. I use the example so often I didn’t recall that some people would take it literally. I can barely hold a beer at arms length, and wouldn’t let it stay there long. I apologize for not making that clear.

            I’m not sure that these concepts lend themselves well to written description or discussion. Video, dry work and range work are needed. In the field I have had to cover multiple targets, but never had to fire on them or “rapidly transition” between them, at least more rapidly than I can do with a VFG, conventional hold, or magwell grip. I have had to have the rifle in my paws for long, long times, and keeping it close in with the bulk of my grasp at or near the center of gravity has helped a lot.

            Your weight drills sound vey cool, and I will be added to my training plan. In my experience the cops who focus on nothing but weight training don’t function well on the street where flexibility, speed, cardio and endurance rule, and the reverse goes for corrections, where it’s routine to have to outmuscle a 250 lb. inmate, who likely has been working out himself, while doing a cell extraction.

          • CZFan

            Absolutely no need to apologize, I took it literally you mean it as a hyperbole, it makes your point and you cant argue with the physics, although they are a little different compared to holding a rifle.

            Were you Military? I am just assuming that “in the field” means downrange somewhere, not guarding a bunch of enemy deer in the woods lol.

            Here is a perfect illustration of the problem with using a vert
            grip as a pure vertical grip, make a fist with your stronger dominant hand, pretend you are grabbing a vert grip, hell even tuck your arm in real tight to your body, then take your other hand and force your fist to rotate keeping the back of your hand parallel to your forearm. Its impossible to stop your other hand from having easy control over your fist. You will have a hard time pushing it on the X and Y axis, but will easily rotate it with very little force. And that is exactly what holding on a vert grip does, but the problem is compounded because of leverage.

            Now make the same fist with your off hand (weaker) and roll your wrist forward/down so the thumb is in line with the bone of your forearm, Like you are holding a gun with the “comp grip”.

            Take your dominant hand and try to force it to roll just like you did before, you will be able to keep your wrist and forearm oriented the same way very easily.

            The vertical fore grip compounds the problem in that illustration because it has even more leverage over your wrist.

            If you tried this you felt how little control you have over your hands rotation when holding a vertical grip, add the extra leverage and inertia of a gun rapidly swinging and it becomes clear how terrible the vertical grip is when gripped like a broom handle. And shows why afg’s are so nice.

            As I said before you can shoot with the mag well grip and you can shoot pretty well, competitors and the military did it for years, But saying “well I did it in combat” or “ive done it this way for years” isnt a reason to keep doing it, nor is the latest fad a reason to change.

            But when the physics, body mechanics, bullet impacts, and much faster times are all telling you “This new way works!” its time to take a look at it.

            I didnt want to change to a thumbs forward grip with my pistol, or change to the “comp grip” on my rifle I was used to what I was used to, and “I shot fast and well enough” well when you are getting your ass handed to you in competitions by everyone else who does use the better stance and grip, you quickly become willing to train to it, and realize how much better it really is.

            One last thing, If you are using a vertical grip and gripping it like
            a broomhandle, you are already in more of the squared off stance even if the vert grip is fairly close to the mag well, plus your arm is already extended. You are so close! why not roll your hand forward 45 degrees, like in my “experiment” and hold the gun with the more natural and substantially stronger grip? it doesnt make any sense to not make the minute adjustment, you can keep your vert grip and stilluse it as a hand stop.
            You can and should go back to the less tiring and more comfortable mag well grip when the situation calls for it,

          • Bill

            I’m LE, and I’ll try your examples, but understand that I may be using the rifle around cover, under cover, at odd angles, or in a physical confrontation in which lethal force isn’t justified or needed I also don’t square off towards targets because that conflicts with the stances we train for in Field interviews in defensive tactics. The idea of using “all your armor” is counterintuitive when the overarching goal is to not get shot.

            As both a trainer and and end user, I also need to keep the number of techniques taught to a reasonable number. The magwell grip translates to many subguns, may or may not translate to the M1A and doesn’t have an analog for the shotgun or bolt utility rifle. If I introduce the C-Clamp grip to the ARs, eventually someone will get confused and give themselves an owie ranging from a blister to a missing hand.

            Like I said, it may work for you, and seems popular in competition. I may get some of the local guys who use it to run me through some drills, but of the cops I’ve seen use in it on the range, I don’t recall seeing them use it when they jump out of the van.

          • CZFan

            Ive got a few Family members who are LEO’s and I have nothing but respect for what you guys do, and I just want to help, Shooting is 0% – .005% of an average Officers career, but its the only time where they cannot screw up.

            As an Instructor do you teach Police to use M14’s Mp5’s M4’s and Shotguns as well as their duty guns? If you do you are teaching them multiple distinct weapons handling techniques. And if they are competent enough to drive a car and use the radio while drinking coffee they are perfectly capable to learn proper weapon handling techniques.

            If they use a shotgun they already are used to standing square to the target and having one hand extended forward and having there thumb in a forward position to rack the pump, that grip rotated 90 degrees is the AR competition grip with the same stance.

            I never wrap my thumb over the top of the rail in a C grip, it puts your wrist at a funny angle

            The interview stance is a squared up well balanced, slightly athletic stance with one foot slightly back with your upper body squared to the potential threat right? . Sound Familiar?
            Everything about SOPs, Situations that dont justify force and all of that has nothing to do with this discussion, Thats tactics and up to your department, and the Officer to decide what to do.
            I am talking about weapons manipulation. thats it. Everything leading up to the Officer getting his M4 out has nothing to do with me and what I am saying.

            You can shoot in any position that a bladed stance allows you to do, with the squared stance and comp grip. And a few you cannot do at all with a bladed stance and upper body position.

            Lets look at shooting from behind a corner for a second.
            If you can go grab your AR and try this.
            set up like you want to, then lean that corner. Look down what is wrong with that picture?

            In the Bladed stance and upper body position, your front foot is just off to the side of the target, your rear may be as much as 90 degrees off line. So how do you lean around a corner with that stance and a tucked in bladed upper body?
            Well you will bend forward at the waist, and bend your knees, Not a comfortable or stable position is it? Now imagine shooting like that even a .223 will give you balance problems.

            But probably the biggest problem is your back leg, in order to stay standing you bent your knee and exposed your Femoral artery, along with most of both arms and a good chunk of your torso, and head.
            Take a square competition stance and grip, go up to the same corner and look down you can easily keep your foot behind cover, And to lean the corner you actually just lean, and all that you expose is the part of one arm a shoulder and part a small part of your head.

            Take the time to try it, go through all the positional stuff, and tell me at the end of that experiment that you still think the Bladed upper body position is better.

            I am not trying to be a jerk here, but LEO training, unless its State Troopers, or SWAT is bad enough, The qualifications are a joke, and most small Departments just make the guy who scores the best on Qualification the “instructor” My brother in law is that guy in his department.
            He is a phenomenal rifle shot, and since he is the “instructor” I assumed he was just as good with a pistol.

            About 6 years ago his department switched from tired old P226’s to M&P 9mm, I wanted to try the M&P, and he wanted to run a practice qualification so we all went shooting, He started shooting the old P226 that he bought off the department and had a weird weaver ish stance with a worse grip, But Shooting slowly he was able to make good hits and qualified well with a 96% score.

            I grabbed my CZ 85 and one handed aced the qualification easily, then shot a 94% with my off hand only.

            the most “challenging” aspect if you can call it a challenge was at 7 yds, take 1 side step draw and shoot 4 rounds in 4 seconds, all you had to do was hit anywhere on the “bad guy”
            that was more than enough time to get 4 headshots.

            I asked him to shoot as fast as he could with the p226, at the same distance he put 3 in the center A scoring section, 4 in the B section, and 5 between C and D sections somewhere on the bad guy picture, and missed 3 entirely. Pathetic.
            And things just got worse with the M&P I picked it up and honestly hiccuped a little at first, transitioning to a polymer gun when you mainly shoot all steel 9mm is an adjustment, but easily could have qualified, within 3 mags i was doing just as good as before.

            It took all day to get him shooting the M&P well enough to break 85%, and he is supposed to teach shooting to 9 other officers?
            He told his boss that I should teach the others how to shoot, but he said an “unqualified” civilian cant teach his officers officially, but if they were to take training ammo and let me teach them on their off hours he cant stop them. So I did.
            All of them scored 90% or better With 4 Aces after less than 8 hours of “class” over 3 days. The Cutoff is 70% really?

            I mainly had them do dry firing, as well as having them get used to the thumbs forward grip, we had 300rds per officer to train with so most of the class after they got the grip and stance right, and good dry firing trigger control was, reload and malfunction exercises.
            And I refused to dumb down the class and let them “tap rack bang” no matter what was wrong with the gun. I taught them to clear the gun properly for the malfunction, because a tap rack bang on a double feed really screws you, when you should have just taken a millisecond to look.

          • CZFan

            Oh i forgot to say any sort of movement with the weaver pistol stance or bladed rifle stance makes you “walk a tightrope” its not well balanced, you are losing most of your peripheral vision (which is gone anyway when your adrenaline kicks, fair enough) But you are not in an athletic well balanced stance.

            Do you put one foot right in front of eachother walking down the street? No you walk straight forward, The competition Stance and grip are common to all of your natural movement positions, your bladed stance, funny walk and poor balance are not.

          • Me

            One thing a vertical grip helps with (in spades) is weapon retention. The “c clamp” grip is the worst possible grip if you are in close quarters and have to fight for your gun.

          • CZFan

            I dont know about you, but if I am carrying a weapon it will be on a single point sling, So if someone grabs the muzzle, I will feign to fight over it with my reaction hand, and grab my holstered pistol with the other and shoot him.
            Ive done weapon retention drills, and if you have a single point sling on you have so much control with one hand it doesnt matter, a quick transition to pistol or knife ends the fight for that gun quickly.

        • wclardy

          A better comparison/demonstration would be to grip tape a laser pointer to a baseball bat, then grip the bat with both hands. See how long you can hold the laser pointer on a target with one hand gripping the bat at the base and the other one a little less than halfway up the bat. Then try it again after sliding the second hand up until it’s about two-thirds the way up the length of the bat.

        • AD

          I may have misunderstood, but it sounds like you’re talking about moving the bucket closer to and farther away from your body? That doesn’t sound like a fair comparison because moving your support hand doesn’t move the rifle; the weight is always in the same place and it’s just a question of where you’re applying force to it.

          It makes me think of pushing a door open; if you push at the door from right next to the hinge it takes more force to get it moving than if you push from the other end where the handle is, because you’re applying force to a longer lever. I suspect it’s the same with the position of the hand on the rifle. I haven’t really experimented though so this is all just theory.

    • iksnilol

      I think it is better for stability than recoil control. Please note; I use the magwell grip pretty much exclusively with my AK.

      • Bill

        Stability is what gets hits. I don’t have enough experience with the AK to assess whether it needs specific recoil countermeasures, but I still contend that with the 5.56 recoil is essentially a non issue, and if it is it can get fixed with kettlebells or pushups. It might be for competitive shooters, but Ive never heard of a soldier or a cop loosing a fight because their AR recoiled too much.

        • iksnilol

          Eh, I don’t find an AK hard to controll. I just do the magwell grip because the barrel isn’t free floated and it allows me to aim longer before fatigue kicks in.

  • TheNotoriousIUD

    “Hey Chief, can I hold my gun sideways??”

    • Dan

      Only if you grab your crotch at the same time

    • Abram

      Apparently Jerry Miculek can.

  • JumpIf NotZero

    They include

    … And are limited to.

    • ozzallos .

      Yeah, description fail. I was expecting an entire rundown of interweb fallacy.

      • Mikial

        @ozzallos:disqus
        Agreed. I thought we were going to get a nice rundown of internet ninja BS to be debunked, instead we got a couple. Disappointing.

  • Holdfast_II

    Back in the Canadian Army in the early 1990s we were taught not to monopod, and with very good reason. The crappy Thermold mags we had were notorious for weak feed-lips, and so monopodding could cause them to snap off.

  • Darkpr0

    Grabbing the magazine or the well should produce no issues from a gun perspective. The only legitimate concern I have heard is that if you get an out-of-battery that discharges through the magazine and your hand is on it, you may end up having a bad time of it. That seems pretty reasonable, but on the other hand how many out-of-batteries do we have in a day?

    • raz-0

      Mostly the magwell grip is a technique criticism rather than a hazard. You can cause stoppages monopoding. Like the guy in the video said, not if your mag is in good shape and in spec, but hey during the AWB, or in the military where nothing is ever abused, put away, and handed back out again, nobody ever stumbles on an out of spec mag.

      • Darkpr0

        I’ll admit the military has a bit of a different situation because you have the threat of constant fighting, and conditions which are not conducive to proper equipment care. However in the civvy world where people freak out because their cerakote got a scratch I feel like we don’t have too much to worry about. If the technique improves your performance, have at it.

        • raz-0

          They always have the issue gear wise, we sometimes have it. It’s useful knowledge for diagnosing problems regardless.

          As for technique, my first rule is usually to not argue with something that is working. However, very often someone complains they are having trouble doing x, Y and z better/faster, and then technique comes into it. Technique is seldom a matter of this works the best period, and that works not at all.

          The mag well thing works if the guys with the stars insist you festoon your gun with 20lbs of gear and it’s the only place left to grab. It certainly beats trying to grab what you might not have. It also works if you shoot hi-power and have laminated yourself in semi-rigid shooting bondage gear. It works much less well in other situations though, and there is probably one or more things that is more optimal, especially for certain goals.

          • Darkpr0

            I am a fan of the mag well grab just because my favorite shooter is a mall-ninja SKS, and I found my standing shooting improved substantially grabbing by the (Tapco, insert flame war here) mag. But that was a conclusion derived from several hundred rounds of ammo and testing, and is every bit a function of which particular person is firing which particular gun in which configuration with what equipment. Everyone else’s mileage can and will differ.

  • Lance

    Use the hand guard that’s what its there for!!!!

  • powerwiz

    Nutty that putting your hand on the magazine well is a “myth”. Ten years of being in the Marine Corp last decade shooting my rifle with my hand on it along with hundreds of others must of been a figment of my imagination.

    In fact that is exactly how the Marines taught me to fire a rifle. I have a angular grip on two of my rifles and still can’t will myself to use it.

  • Southpaw89

    I’ve heard that holding the magazine or resting on the magazine can cause malfunctions, but never the mag well. The one about the magazine is at least believable, but the mag well is machined into the lower, there is no way that should cause and issue.

  • Trollsta

    An opinion-related AR15 post for the first time in months! Shall we see Nat F soon again return to form as resident lolcow and AR fanboy?

  • USMC03Vet

    They interrupt this guy while he was operating in the Hindu Kush for the next Jason Borne movie?

    For a guy talking about McNinjas, he should probably check his kill flashed out field mirror.

  • Bill

    He doesn’t say it’s not a good idea, he says not to cover the ejection port when you are doing it. I’ve never had that issue, nor has anyone else I’ve watched use it. Also note that he has the weapon pointed downward in almost a low ready, where the hand might pivot up and do that. Snapping the weapon up into a firing position is likely to rotate the had down where it belongs. Again, it’s biomechanics. If I have my reactionary hand mashed up as high as it will go on the magwell, which I do for consistency’s sake, unless I evolve an additional joint in my finger it’s really unlikely to happen.

    But that’s just me. I don’t have a video.

  • Chi Wai Shum

    I thought the magwell-holding technique has no longer fashionable, now that vertical grips widely issued.

    • Bill

      It’s funny you say that – I finally broke down and added a VFG to my primary patrol rifle and have found that: 1 – after trial and error it’s mounted way closer to the magwell than the gas block or end of stock, and 2 – I use it primarily when using my light, as they are both mounted so that when using the VFG my thumb is essentially on the tail switch. My VFG is also very short, if that makes a difference.

      That being said, given that it seems to want to entangle itself in the sling and my chest rig, if not the steering wheel or door frame of the cruiser when bailing out, I’m seriously considering replacing it with a slimmer hand stop, or running slick altogether and using the light as an index point and staying on the magwell or stock when not using the light.

  • jerry young

    resting the magazine on the ground or bench helps to stabilize your shot, I was taught this in the Army in the very early 70’s although I wouldn’t recommend doing this with plastic mags

  • Anthony Smallwood

    I served in the Navy for 10 years. I’ve shot A2s, A3s, lots of ARs off the shelf, home built, PSA and Del Ton cheapos, etc. I’ve never had any of these reported issues. The only real issue I know of is the use of soft tip lead point ammo. If you are shooting enough the barrel will get hot enough that these guys will just stick to the barrel throat and never feed properly. Use FMJ or fully jacketed hollow points in your AR, get a great trigger, hold it by the magwell and shoot the hell out of it.
    The only real safety gotcha is the bolt release. If you have the bolt held back by the catch and lightly tap the butt of the rifle or jostle it far enough, the bolt will ram forward. This could potentially lead to a slamfire although I’ve never seen it.
    The other known issue is the charging handle. Make sure yours is latched before mashing the fun button or it’s your face.
    Happy shooting. All this nonsense about issues with the AR and AK are just plain unfounded. They are both insanely reliable rifles. One is more accurate and the other packs a bigger thump. I like both.

  • RickOAA .

    Most of our instructors in my day taught multiple techniques, and advocated using whatever method worked best for the particular individual.

    This post is mostly fail.

  • Bill

    Another advantage to the magwell grip is leverage. I am a 50% disabled vet lefty with limited use of my right arm, and holding anything out from my body that is heavier than a loaded mag is out of the question for me. The magwell grip keeps that arm in close and tight and doesn’t hurt. I have a build that is balance neutral at the carry handle hole whether full or empty, and overtravel when engaging multiple targets isn’t a problem. Less weight up front, less inertia, more control of the muzzle. If you get deep enough into this concept you will even find that a stock setting will fine tune the balance even further. For me, one click out puts my left arm over center and shifts the burden to my right, while two clicks centers the weight between both arms. Ergonomics is a wonderful thing; take some time to tinker, and you may find that your gun doesn’t fit you as well as it could.

  • Zebra Dun

    When resting the magazine on the ground during fire makes the rifle jump more and differently than if on a bi-pod and from a rifle held just in your hands.
    There is that old problem with rifle sling shooting where the tension of the sling tight on the arm made the older thin barrel AR rifles bend and threw the dope off when shooting without the sling.
    ——
    Hand on Mag well, I read an article once long ago which showed M-16 rifles taken in the Vietnam conflict and sold to central America and after twenty years of being carried with a hand on the mag well the sweat and other dirt, chemicals on the hand made the mag wells corrode and get holes actually worn in them.
    The fact these old M-16 were still shooting after twenty years of hard use astounded me at the time!

  • JoelM

    I read about the mag well grip being bad because fingers can block the ejection port door, but I think once people are aware that can happen they can just be sure not to put their fingers that high. You really have to grip at a weird angle to get them that high anyway.

  • BigR

    Anybody want to buy my Wilson Combat .45? I promise, it’s never jammed in the 15 years I’ve been shooting it. Wilson recommended I break in it at 500 rounds, and I never had a jam, failure to feed, or stovepipe through the 500 rounds break in period or the other 8 to 10 thousand rounds that’s been through it since. The only thing I did was change the 22 lb. recoil spring to a 20 lb. spring, because about a year or two ago, because my arthritis kicked in. I can handle the 20 lb. with no problem. I do wish it would hold more rounds though, but I carry 1 or 2 mags. when I go out, depending on where I’m going. During the summer months, I carry my Springfield EMP 9mm, because of the heat, and it’s easier to hide under my summer wear, but comes fall, the Wilson goes back on my hip.

  • CavScout

    Magazine on the ground works. One more solid point of contact. With two elbows planted, it’s a tripod, not a monopod. Funker Tactical… got famous from singing gun songs on youtube.