BREAKING: US Army Finally Releases Solicitation For XM17 MHS

Army-MHS-1

After many months of waiting, finally the US Army has released the formal solicitation for the XM17 MHS handgun competition. Guns.com reports:

Due to revisions and delays, the U.S. Army’s solicitation for a handgun to replace the M9 has been put off for almost a year, but that ended when the Army officially announced it on Aug. 28.

The solicitation allows companies to compete for a $580 million contract and bragging rights for being the Army’s official sidearm, something Beretta has had for more than 25 years. However, the testing is thorough and navigating federal bureaucracy can be exhausting.

The 351-page solicitation details key features required of competing handguns, performance standards, necessary accessories and kits, and a range of quantities for the items in full and components.

To compete in the Modular Handgun System, and the XM17 designation, the pistol needs modifiable grips, varied magazine options, ambidextrous controls, and rails for accessories. Since many features the Army wants come standard with polymer-framed handgun available today, performance of both the firearm and its chambering will make the difference.

The Army said the handgun should be able to hit a 4-inch target at a 50-meter range at least 90 percent of the time throughout the gun’s lifespan. While there’s not specific caliber preference, the round should be able to penetrate 14-inches into ballistics gel at 50 meters.

But the likely challenge for competitors is navigating the intricacies of the military’s program and costs — reasons why Mike Fifer, chief executive officer of Sturm, Ruger & Company, told investors in July during a conference call why Ruger is not participating.

“There’s enormous cause to participate and an extremely low likelihood for any one company of winning it,” he said.

“If you win it, obviously you’re in the capital receipt for the next 25 years, but I have a feeling competing for it’s going to be a little bit like being hit against a brick wall, and you’ll feel real good when you stop,” he said.

“The risk factor of putting the huge investment of time, people and money into competing for something that there’s really very low likelihood of winning even if you have a much better product,” he said. “And so those are kind of the pros and cons right there.”

Aside from Smith & Wesson teaming with General Dynamics, and Beretta putting forth effort to retain the contract, a number of companies are expected to be participating. More than 20 companies participated in an industry day at Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey at the beginning of July to showcase possible entries.

The deadline for companies to submit a test package is Jan. 28.

 

We’ll continue to cover the MHS competition as it unfolds. Previous articles on the subject can be found here, here, and here.

 

 



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • TheNotoriousIUD

    Finally Kel Tec will have its chance.

    • Dracon1201

      Kel Tec really just needs to come up with something batcrap insane. I wanna see it.

      • TheNotoriousIUD

        They should just scare the crap out of everybody.

      • Sean

        Except there would be a four-five year wait for them to actually deliver them.

    • Kivaari

      Do they make a pistol that can run a full magazine without failing? Kel-Tec made me ignore them, when all I saw were non-working and/or built like toys.

    • Guido FL

      ………….. to show it’s lack of Quality Control ?

  • PT McCain

    Whispers to US Army…

    Glock 17. ’nuff said.

    Get on with it and get over it.

    • 11b

      No safety- A military combat handgun needs to have an external safety.

      • Some Guy

        Why’s that?

        • Anon

          Same reason there are horrible heavy triggers, they don’t trust them enough not to shoot themselves

      • Joshua

        Glock has made numerous models for trials with safeties.

      • Ggth

        Sig p226. Nuff said.

        • Plumbiphilious

          I would freaking love that. Or a full-length polymer version of it would also be good (considering the SP2022 is technically a poly p229, I believe?).

          • Raguel A’septem

            Look into the new P320… meets and exceeds all the Army requirements (except external safety) and allows one gun: multiple calibers and sizes (slides AND grips) in one package.

          • Paradox

            Check out the info on Beretta’s APX pistol. If it does what they’re claiming, it will become the new sidearm. Beretta has submitted the APX.

          • Raguel A’septem

            Personally, I like the M9A3… it’s as much an evolution of the M9 as the M4A1 was the M16.

          • Paradox

            I like the M9A3 too… I just see the military going with a polymer striker fired pistol. Like the UK military did with the Glock 17 Gen 4.

      • DaveP.

        There’s a load of soldiers from 1776 through 1910 (and a stack who got issued the “substitute standard”, all the way up to 1945) who’d argue that point with you. And that’s just the Americans.
        Train your people and there’s no problem. Skimp on training and no mechanical safety in the world will save you.

        • iksnilol

          Harpers Ferry and other flintlocks don’t count since they weren’t carried cocked.

        • Plumbiphilious

          To flip that back on you, everybody who was issued a to-spec grip safety/SAO/mechanical safety 1911 was also similarly fine.

          It’s as you say, a matter of training, safeties or no safety. So a Glock not meeting that standard and not bothering to submit their models with a safety added is their own problem rather than the military’s.

          Yeah, they tried exactly that in the past, but that doesn’t mean they have to stop (especially since they wouldn’t have to pay jack for re-engineering), especially considering how popular Glocks are in the non-military market.

          • Kivaari

            AND there are also after market manual safeties available.

      • Kivaari

        Easily done. Like SIG that doesn’t need a safety, they will provide one if they want one.

      • SOCOM doesn’t think so. Neither do the Brits.

      • Kivaari

        Easily accommodated. SIG even put them on P230 in 7.65x17mm for Japanese police. Japan adopted the P220, I believe without the extra safety. They already had the de-cocker that put them on a “safety shelf”. I stopped looking at SIGs partially because the grip shape changed to keep the thumb off the slide stop since people were firing it empty, but with the slide closed due to resting the thumb on the latch. I disliked the change, because I tended to use it as a thumb rest even more so. I had a P228 that belonged to a USSS agent, that happened to be the guy that took the first phone call into the White House regarding Watergate. He bought one upon retiring.

    • Kivaari

      A Gen 3 Glock 17 is the best off the shelf pistol suitable for military or police use.

      • iksnilol

        *cough* CZ75 SP01 *cough*

        • Uh, hahaha, what? I am a big fan of CZs, used to own a 75B and I put 3K rounds down the pipe, but seriously? The Glock 17 runs circles around it for everything from weight to trigger pull.

          If you had to have a DA/SA for some silly reason, then the HK P30 would also whup it.

          • iksnilol

            What about the Phantom? It is plastic frame. It weighs about as much. Is more accurate and comfortable.

            Nobody has said a Glock is comfortable.

          • Glocks are comfortable.

          • ostiariusalpha

            No, you have to do it with a straight face. I prefer the fundamentals of the Walther PPQ design, but I know they’d never put any effort out to win the contract.

          • I find pistols like the P30, PPQ, and Hi Power to be more comfortable than Glocks, but I shoot Glocks better than any of those but the P30.

            Glocks get a lot of crap for feeling like two-by-fours, but they’re a lot more comfortable than that. Maybe not top five most comfortable double stack pistols good, but they’re still pretty good.

          • ostiariusalpha

            More comfortable than the two-by-four certainly, it is just a metaphor. iksi & I may be yanking your chain a little bit here, there are all kinds of hand size & shapes out there. I know at least two people that find the Glock grip perfectly satisfactory, it’s simply everyone else that can’t find any love in their hearts for it.

          • In my experience, it’s the grip feel that gets people up in arms. They tend to whine and whine about how clumsy it feels, then shoot it perfectly well when the time comes.

            Clearly, not that bad of a grip.

          • Kivaari

            Many of the European M&P-types in the last 40 years have horrible handling. Walther and HK made/make hideous ergonomics. Some, most got great reviews in the popular gun press. Then when we see them up close, it leaves us wondering how anyone could find them good. Gen 1 Glocks simply did not fit most peoples hand. Gen 2 really improved that issue for most. I’d take Glocks over any self-loading pistol when it may really be needed.

          • iksnilol

            You can lie to me but you can’t lie to yourself.

            I don’t really care for DA/SA, I care for three things: good trigger, good grip, good sights. Glocks don’t have any of those out of the box.

          • You can keep your little smartassery to yourself, I think. Not everybody cares for the Glock grip, but it’s a good one. Not everybody cares for the Glock sights, but they’re good ones. The trigger is heavy and feels weird, but it works great for its intended purpose.

            Glocks are comfortable guns. I shoot them better than I do a lot of their competition. Not everybody will prefer Glocks, but you can drop the knowitall teenager act.

          • iksnilol

            They aren’t good, they are adequate. I never said Glocks are bad, they are perfectly decent. It is just wrong to call them the best thing since sliced bread. Which is one thing that people are fond of doing, especially in America since Glocks are dirt cheap there compared to the competition.

            I seem to have struck a nerve. So adieu and all that.

          • You will find that tends to happen, when you call a perfect stranger a “liar” even in jest.

            I shoot Glocks better than almost any other double-stack semiautomatic handgun, so maybe they’re not just “adequately” comfortable.

          • iksnilol

            I called you a liar? That’s reaching for straws if I ever knew what the term meant.

            I know a girl who rides an unicycle better than a bicycle, does that mean we should all stop using bicycles? I thought you were the numbercrunching, rational guy?

          • Did you not say this? Was this another person with the same screen name and avatar?

            “You can lie to me but you can’t lie to yourself.”

            Here’s some advice, Iks: I don’t know you. You come onto our comments section, and that’s fine. But you’re not my buddy. I’ve never seen you in person. We’ve never built up a rapport.

            You can’t just call someone you don’t know a “liar” even as a joke and expect them to be cool with it. This is basic social skills 101. Learn this stuff, and you’ll have a much easier time in life, I guarantee it.

          • iksnilol

            I have an easy time in life, mainly because I don’t take everything super seriously. As a great American poet once wrote: “Lighten up, Francis”.

          • Oh gimme a break. You screwed up, don’t try to play it off like I’m too stuffy to take a joke.

          • Kivaari

            Funny, and so true.

          • Kivaari

            That’s how I read your comment to Nathaniel.

          • Phil Elliott

            I find the grip angle to be wrong for me relative to other guns.

          • Kivaari

            Unlike the advice of Ayoob, I like putting 3.5 pound connectors in my Glocks. My department did it on all our issue Glocks.

          • The 3.5 pound connector combined with a NY1 spring is an excellent option, especially for experienced revolver shooters.

          • Kivaari

            The use of a NY 1 spring, would defeat the purpose of putting a 3.5 #
            connecter in.

          • I first tried that combination over 20 years ago, and used it in all but one of my Glocks. What can I say? I just liked the way it felt. It reduced the feeling of stacking as the trigger bar contacted the connector, and it gave a snappier reset.

          • Eric Shearer

            lol!

          • Kivaari

            I love the feel of Glock 17 and 19 frames. I’d take either one when the big one happens.

          • Core

            Yes if you need a hammer..

          • Kivaari

            Glock 17 and 19 are comfortable. I carried the 17 as a duty gun for 10 years, and still have one. They become part of you, if you train seriously.

          • iksnilol

            I don’t really like Glocks, but I have always wanted a 17 with the grip chopped down to 26 length.

          • Kivaari

            I had 26s and 27s and still don’t know why. They are too big to be a pocket gun so they become a holster gun. I found that if they are holster guns I may as well carry a M19 or M23. I’ve dumped using .40 S&W and moved back to 9mm. I traded off all the mini-Glocks and have zero desire to buy any tiny semi auto. I’ve had a dozen .380 and 9×18 (Ultra and Soviet) and see no need for them.
            I carry a S&W M642 all the time. It just disappears in the pocket. When I hit the brush I usually pack a K-frame .357 – 4 inch. If I were in a higher threat area from 2 legged varmints I’d pack the Glock 19. There isn’t a better carry gun, some close, but none better. I wont pact a single action anything that needs cocking or condition one carry.

          • DTC99

            P-09 (or p-07).

    • n0truscotsman

      I agree. Should have been done a long time ago. Its either that, or keep the M9.

  • Just say’n

    Wonder what Ruger really is afraid of? I mean it would be easy for them to partner with a big defense contractor to share the risk like S&W did. They make good firearms, they’ve one a few state LEO contracts and some Foreign Military Sales as well (Iraq police IIRC). Probably would have as good a chance as anyone.

    • Dracon1201

      They’re worried that this might work out like every rifle aquisition program of the 21st century. They may just stick with an M9. It’s a lot of work. In addition, can you imagine Ruger competing in that? Lol. Against the true greats of combat handguns? It’s not gonna go well.

      • John

        Ruger could just put up the GP100. It’s much more powerful than the 9mm, it’s a classic, and it doubles as a club, a hammer, and a boat anchor. Plus, if you tie strap enough of them together, they transform into a battle bot!

        • iksnilol

          21st century, we aren’t moving back to revolvers.

          • DaveP.

            “Back”?

          • iksnilol

            Back in the dark ages we used revolvers. US Army used revolvers before they went to pistols with the 1911.

          • The Chiappa Rhino is a Revolver for the 21st Century!

          • iksnilol

            True dat.

            Though I still feel it is pointless. 6 shots vs 15+1 (or even more).

            I really would like to see more bottom firing revolvers. Maybe a top break like the REX that the Russians make.

          • Giolli Joker

            The Russian top break fires from top chamber.
            Nothing impossible to overcome, but with bottom chamber aligned with the barrel, in a top break you have to redesign completely the hinge and ejection system.
            Other than that, firing from 6 hrs position reduces a lot the stress on the closure of the the top break, as the force of recoil acts with a much shorter leverage (less torque).

          • iksnilol

            never thought about the 6 o’clock position reducing stress on the hinge.

            I know the Russian top break fires from top chamber, would be nice to see one like that firing from bottom chamber with a multi caliber cylinder like the M47 Medusa.

          • nobody

            There was actually a prototype based on the MP412 REX that fired from the bottom cylinder. TFB won’t let me post pictures or links to pictures as a guest though.

          • You can try. If it comes up I can ok it.

          • nobody

            Here it is.

          • There is an OTs (experimental) one with a six-o-clock configuration. NOTE that the barrel is on the bottom. The top is the jerry-rigged laser sight.

          • anon

            *tips fedora

          • Kivaari

            Has anyone ever bought one?

          • Who knows? I want one and would buy one for the right price. But from what I’ve seen they cost more than a good Smith&Wesson Model 66 or 686. But it’s more of an “I want one” type gun, so unless I found a great deal probably not.

          • Kivaari

            I looked at a couple, that have sat on a shelf for 2 years. There is no way I would pay the asking price for a gun that is inferior to a S&W M66 or M686. I have a M19 and M65, that combined cost less than the Rhino. Both have superior triggers in both DA and SA.

          • Giolli Joker

            Did you shoot it?

          • Kivaari

            No. I felt it was under finished, over priced, had a little plastic cocked indicator and many more internal parts than I like. Getting what I felt to be an uncomfortable grip, full of parts, just did not appeal to me. I looked at it several times, and just couldn’t figure out where the added value was. Less recoil than other .35 revolvers? OK, I don’t shoot .357s anymore. In .38 Special, the K-frame S&Ws do just fine.

          • Giolli Joker

            Fair enough.
            I’d just suggest you to watch Hickok45 review of it.
            It’s a honest evaluation from someone who doesn’t really like it.

          • Kivaari

            They used revolvers well into the 70s. S&W M10 and Ruger Security Six. The AF well into the 90s. S&W M15.

          • Eric Shearer

            In 1991 I was in Korea as a UH60 Blackhawk crew chief. I was issued a S&W 38spl.

        • Dracon1201

          No frigging way we are going to a revolver. They complain about the M9’s open slide as it is in addition, hot 9mm gets close to 357 velocities nowadays.

          • John

            First, I was kidding, and second, if you want to be technical, a .357 can achieve over 800 lbs. of energy with a 125 gr. bullet. Can you show me a 9mm that can do this?

            source: http://www.ballistics101

        • Core

          Lol

    • DaveP.

      They’re worried this’ll turn out like the last (iirc) three military handgun procurement plans: revealed with great fanfare, then made moot when the DoD eliminates the line-item from the budget.

    • Giolli Joker

      Iraq police?
      That sounds like the cleanest type of bid…

      • It was a last minute rush order by the US Army to fill 10,000 Iraqi holsters before the January 2005 parliamentary election. Besides the 5,000 Ruger P95, the US Army also purchased 5,000 SIG-Sauer SP2022.

    • john huscio

      Iraqi police……..seems like every company from s&w to hs produkt to glock have “contracts” with the Iraqi police…..according to Wikipedia at least……anytime I see actual photos of Iraqi police in action, they are always carrying g19s and nothing else…..

    • J.T.

      Ruger took part in the mess that was the XM9/XM10 trials. With the volume of civilian sales that they do, they probably don’t want to go through all that again.

  • wetcorps

    “not specific caliber preference”
    Get .50AE Desert Eagles.
    Come on are you America or not?

    • Grindstone50k

      To ensure that all troops are at their peak, only Gold DEs will be issued, as all troops are expected to be Level 50.

      • tts

        Tiger striped gold plated DE’s

    • Raguel A’septem

      Play too much Call of Duty there?
      Love to see some 140lb desk jockey try to grip that oversized POS much less a petite woman truck driver.
      The DEAGLE… LMAO!!!

      • wetcorps

        Love to see a joke going through your head instead of way above 🙂

        • Raguel A’septem

          😉

    • Kivaari

      It’s like getting NSU, non-specific urethritis, after a port call in Thailand or Hong Kong.

      • Core

        lol we all know this never happens. itch itch..

        • Kivaari

          Burning and dripping. In Bangkok they has a gun store selling full auto .22LR rifles. That would have been fun to bring home.

    • anomad101

      From what I have seen in videos of soldiers firing 5.56 rifles/carbines on auto and semi, not sure they can handle a .50AE’s recoil. They were having a hard time holding onto the 5.56s.

  • Mark

    So which company’s graft and corruption ensures that the specifications favor their inferior product this time?

  • Beomoose

    I’m really hoping FN puts a Five-Seven into these trials. I’m not saying that’s my preference for caliber, but I want to see how it would do in the trials. Would be a missed opportunity for FN to “just” bring in another 9mm-.45 pistol.

    • Giolli Joker

      Uhm… the FiveSeven is surely great, but I don’t think I’ve ever handled a gun that felt more like a toy… I’d guess that if there was any subjective evaluation involved, it would have limited chances to success.

      • Kivaari

        The 5.7 would be club-like if it weighed 6 pounds. Then it would still need to be grabbed by the slide, as the grip is too big for comfort.

        • Giolli Joker

          I found the grip ok (but it’s clearly subjective) but polymers on the slide made me really guess if I was holding a toy.

    • I love the Five Seven and think it would be a great choice, but it would fail this standard right away. It has no option for removable backstraps, the grip is too large for those with small hands, and the 5.7×28 does not meet 12″ of gel with the SS190 loading, much less the 14″ @ 50 yards required.

    • The price alone would disqualify it.

      • Pretty sure the civilian price is an artificially inflated tag. If FN were serious about offering the Five-seveN, they could offer it much, much more cheaply. Probably cheaper than any of the other competitors, in fact.

        • Will

          FN HAS submitted the Five-seveN MK2 for the competition…

        • Kivaari

          The 5.7 FN pistol would be the last pistol on the list. After the first trial, it wouldn’t be on any list, except for those that failed.

          • T Sheehan

            I’m curious what your basis for that is, Kiv. It’s polymer. It can (and should) be reminded for swappable grips, and the suitability of the 5.7×28 round to battlefield purposes versus 9mm and .45 is still a controversial, emotional subject. Particularly with the old-guard types.
            But you didn’t say “wouldn’t be accepted”, you said “Fail”. So again, I’m curious what your basis of failure is. Hearsay? Theorycraft? Or have you had a catastrophic failure and actual first hand experience.
            We’ve had some interesting, if opposite points of view, I’m not trying to insult you, just ask what would make it unsuitable.
            In particular, the 50m 4″ groupings through 90% of its service life seem particularly suited to the 5-7, especially if given a longer barrel. It’s not for concealed carry after all, but open, battlefield carry. Even a Race Gun sized side arm isn’t a problem when it’s MOLLE strapped to your gear

          • Kivaari

            Based on grip size alone, I would reject it. Unless it is issued to troops all taller than 6’6″ with equally large hands, it just simply is too awkward in size to be general issue. Eliminate the silly safety, issue it with a DAO trigger (cocking like a Glock) and fitting the hand of 5′-0″ troops and I don’t object. I like the little bullet with its armor drilling capabilities. Maybe new telescoping ammo, as short overall as a 9x19mm could make it suitable for general issue. I have only talked with a couple of very tall men that liked the 5.7.
            Issue a basic pistol that has a know track record, like a Glock, and it will be a step forward. The M9 is still too big for many to shoot well. I’d take a G17 over any other pistol.

          • T Sheehan

            Good points. I tend to think of mine as just feeling like a 1911 with hogue wrap around grips, and forget how meaty it really is. And the safety is pretty flimsy.
            I am smelling a challenge project coming on, judging from the burning in my wallet. Hmmm….

    • Will

      They did. Look up the Five-seveN MK2.

  • USMC03Vet

    Mike Fifer sounds like a noncompetitive chump desperately making excuses why his company can’t compete but many others can. I don’t understand why share holders would settle for that type of attitude. If they can’t effectively come up with at least an entry without breaking the bank I highly doubt their civilian market offerings are competitive either, and instead just staying afloat on market brand recognition instead of superior products.

    Excuses excuses, Mike.

    • Grindstone50k

      You’re a vet, right? You know these things hardly ever are based on actual merit but on the backroom deals. It’s who knows who and who greased whose hands.

      • USMC03Vet

        No I just play one on TV. I do autographs though.

    • KestrelBike

      I definitely see the need to be aggressive, but It could also be a plain statement of Ruger’s current economic health and their ability to weather both a sagging gun economy and the realistic likelihood that Ruger might not get picked no matter what gun they can unicorn’ up.

    • TheNotoriousIUD

      Granted I don’t know jack about military handgun procurement but I do know that dealing with the government blows even on a minor level. Maybe he just doesn’t want to deal with the bullshit when he knows it’s probably going to come down to who leaves the biggest briefcase of cash in some congressmans office.

      • USMC03Vet

        They are in the gun business they should be use to it. Again I just don’t see how such a big company seemingly dismisses such an opportunity everyone else realizes unless they are in such a terrible state and publicly admit so.

        Share holders should be pretty miffed about that attitude. I would be.

        • TheNotoriousIUD

          As to whether or not the shareholders should be pissed I guess it depends on how well their consumer products are doing. It takes a boatload of cash to design something new for a contract like this and if it tanks then that’s a problem. Every Ruger I’ve owned had been of top quality and reliability so I think they could give it a run but who knows.

        • Patriot Gunner

          Not everyone wants to get in bed with the govt. and I respect Ruger for not doing so. Sometimes (probably majority of the time) the endless red tape isn’t worth the money. Most small arms companies that have govt contracts as their main source of revenue always end up broke. Look at HK and Colt, scrounging around for the next big mil contract to service a mountain of debt, like a junkie looking for its next fix. When just the solicitation is 351 pages, that’s a problem.

    • bucherm

      DOD contracting is a complete pain in the ass, and complaints about profiteering aside, it’s fairly low margin considering the amount of overhead that goes into it. It’s pretty telling that S&W hired(excuse me, “partnered with”) General Dynamics for the bid. They need someone who knows how to navigate the system, I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that Ruger had put out similar feelers and didn’t like what potential partners were saying was their price.

    • borekfk

      There is a reason why historians say “Never put your faith in government contracts”. It’s a lesson that Colt is currently re-learning the hard way.

  • Grindstone50k

    I think the lack of having a round specified for the MHS is going to be a huge point later on. Lots of guns have their preferences for food. Also, penetration depends a lot on the round itself. This is going to be messy.

    • KestrelBike

      Do they want [over]penetration, or do they want expansion/stopping-power?

      • Tissue destruction.

      • ostiariusalpha

        .357 Sig with radially dynamic bullets and you can get both!

  • It’s Ruger’s choice not to compete but at the same time shouldn’t the SR9 or SR40 already meet the requirements?

  • Hal P.

    FNX-45 Tactical..

    • Sean

      Too big for a lot of recruits.

  • All the Raindrops

    Not really surprised that Ruger is not getting in, since their pistols are fairly outdated and certainly not “cool.”

    They are doing fine with the 10/22, RAR, RPR,etc… but I sure wouldn’t go out of my way to buy a ruger pistol

    • Brandon James

      Agreed. I’ve got a Ruger GP100 as a camping/truck gun, and in full .357 guise (or even .38 +P ‘in the city’) with civilian ammo (e.g. hollow points or hard cast as the situation dictate) it’s fantastic. That being said, their semiautos are.. ‘adequate’. Surely not Hi-Point or any of the other ‘ring of fire’ companies, but pretty damned unrefined.

  • john huscio

    My prediction remains SIG p320 in whatever caliber they want.

    • Gjert Klakeg Mulen

      My guess as well

    • Ed

      Waste of money SiG sucks

      • Kivaari

        I had many SIGs and most were superior to the competition. I had one poly framed .40, model is lost to memory, that was terribly unreliable. I had it for a couple of weeks, then dumped it. I’m sure SIG would make it work, I just wasn’t willing to go through the hassle.

      • Kable Holding

        Every SiG I’ve ever handled felt like it was going to fly apart in my hands when shooting it.

        • Kivaari

          In the early 80s when SIGs P226 went head to head with the Beretta M92, both did well. The P226 plugged up a little in the mud slurry, so they cut 6 “scuppers” in the frame and fixed that. At extremely high round counts the SIG frame cracked, the POI changed but the pistol functioned. Berettas had slides launch rearward, but they fixed that with the over sized head on the hammer pin and a corresponding slot on the slide. Both pistols “won” and had similar costs, until the spare parts and support came in. Then SIG was too high priced. That didn’t stop the SpecOps people from buying them and Naval Aviation units.
          Glocks entered the field and is loved in SEAL ranks from what I read.
          Personally the P226 was my favorite of the era, as it fit my hand better than the slick M9. The M9A3 appears to have fixed that. Of course the Army will probably reject it.

      • Raguel A’septem

        Yea, wanna put any handgun out there against a P226?
        Really?
        the P320 is an evolution of the P250 MHS (hey wait… SIG had that BEFORE the Army comp?)
        You’re just jealous because you have a HiPoint or overpriced 1911, right?

        • Brandon James

          Nah… let the boys at HK tweak the USP a bit, and we can send the P226 back to being the cute little safe queen she is.

          • Kivaari

            Why does the Navy use so many SIG P226 and P228?

    • nova3930

      I’ll be a little surprised if a polymer frame handgun wins the competition. I don’t know what the storage temp requirement will be but I know for electronics MIL-STD-810G can range up to 160 deg F, which would play hell with nearly any polymer….

      • Kivaari

        Not really when using polymer materials like Glock, and other makers of good service pistols. A melting HK G36 comes from a poor design. Not thinking about how hot any 5.56mm gets led them to make a cheap but expensive rifle.

        • Cymond

          Did you see the video of the FNX that was left in the sun on a hot day?
          http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/08/10/flexible-fnx-magwell/

          • Kivaari

            Thanks for the referral. It is interesting and bothersome since I prefer Glocks over any other combat pistol.

        • nova3930

          Rapid melting and deformation due to prolonged exposure to high temperatures are two different things. Polymer materials tend to exhibit creep deformation at significantly lower temperatures than metals. Typically you’ll see rapid creep deformation at temps above 200C, but prolonged exposure at lower temps can result in the same effects.
          And ultimately that’s the question the Army attempts to answer with high temp storage testing. What happens when I store this in a metal box in the middle of the Iraqi desert for 6 months? The answer is very probable that the frame will come out distorted, which will likely play abject hell with the post storage functionality tests that are required.
          The problem with polymer pistols ultimately being that the cycling of the weapon and feeding of ammunition depends upon the interface of the metallic slide and magazine with the polymer frame. With a distorted frame you can easily have slide cycling issues and/or magazine insertion issues.
          Those particular requirements are why those pistols can excel in civilian service, especially as police duty weapons, but can fail to gain acceptance by DoD as an GI weapon. The police don’t generally have a requirement to store weapons at elevated temperatures for months on end. The Army wants to be able to do that, pull out the weapon and have it go bang first time without any repair work.

          • Kivaari

            That is an excellent response. Since I was a civilian police officer I found the Glock to be the best pistol I had ever been issued or bought. I loved SIGs until they changed some grip shapes and introduced a poly-frame pistol that was in my example unreliable to the max.

    • Raguel A’septem

      I also mentioned this in my comments above. It meets all the criteria and the Army can issue one “trigger frame” to soldiers and let the armory provide barrel/slide/mags and grip frames per mission requirement at the armory level.
      Aside form the P320 I see the FN FNX or FNP being the winner. It meets ALL the demands including ambidextrous controls thought doesn’t have the ability to go from full-sized to subcompact like the P320 does.
      BTW, ever felt the trigger on a stock P320? My G-d, I am selling my Glock’s and XD now!

    • Paradox

      Check out the info on Beretta’s APX pistol. If it does what they’re claiming, it will become the new sidearm. Beretta has submitted the APX.

  • nobody

    As long as they don’t do anything particularly stupid such as moving to something larger/more powerful than 9mm, as studies have pointed to there being basically no difference in how quickly different service pistol rounds will stop someone and that whatever has the highest capacity and least recoil is best. Hell, they might even be better off going smaller.

    • nobody

      Well, here we go. Read through the proposal a bit, ammunition is going to be rated based on how much tissue it would destroy (why do I have a feeling this is going to turn to making a big deal over differences so minor that they don’t matter, just like every handgun caliber discussion on every gun forum ever), it sounds like they aren’t considering magazine capacity, and they for some reason want 1 standard capacity magazine and 2 extended magazines per full size pistol and 1 smaller magazine and 2 standard size magazines for compact pistols, because who cares about having to reholster your pistol after you’ve reloaded the first time.

      • nobody

        Read a bit more, recoil comparison will be done by simply having various soldiers shoot the pistols and getting their opinion if the recoil is acceptable or not (I’m actually surprised that there is no mention of bore axis), pistols are going to be tested with new ball and hollow point ammunition designated XM1152 and XM1153 respectively, and they want suppressor kits for both the full size and compact (if applicable) versions of the pistol. No mention of micro red dot sights for anyone wonder.

      • Kivaari

        If stuck with ball ammo the .40 and .45 leave a wound track like a 9mm.

  • thorkill

    what the fugk is a “capital receipt”???? do we mean CAT BIRD SEAT????

  • Jhaver1

    Smith&wesson m&p 40 4.25 all the way

  • Will

    Capable of hitting a 4″ circle at 50 meters 90% of the time?????
    I hope they will be using a Ransom Rest because I’ve done military firearms training for 20+ years and 50 meters is considered rifle range. Handgun range is generally accepted to be 25-30 meters.

    • Core

      I would guess they are referring to from a fixed mount. It would be the mechanical accuracy of the pistol through out it’s lifespan. This may get interesting.

  • Lance

    Waste of millions like ICC was. Overall I bet we will not leave 9mm and then it make no sense to got a new caliber. it’ll take years and million for idiots who run the army to figure out again that only a new caliber would warrant a new pistol.

    • Kivaari

      The idea that going from 9mm to 10mm is just a silly millimeter apart.

  • Bal256

    I think an optic mount would be a good new feature, with the popularity of pistol red dots rising.

  • Anonymoose

    Issue 10″ scoped models to snipers and dump that junky old M24.

  • Anonymoose

    I’m calling it right now: they’re going to pick the Glock 20.

    • Shawn Primus

      Glocks are out because of the lack of a manual safety, unless they want to redesign with one.

    • I think the likelihood of the Army choosing a non-9mm caliber is about zero.

      • Anonymoose

        I know. I’m just joking. 😛

        • Kivaari

          Speaking of moose, we’ve seen more this year. Coming into town.

  • Springfield Armory XDm would be an interesting off the shelf choice.

    • Not unless the Croats were willing to set up a factory in the States.

      I also suspect the XDm would fail their endurance testing, but who knows.

      • I believe Springfield Armory already has a facility that would be up for the task…with retooling of course.

        I haven’t read about XDm’s having longevity issues, but I’m out of the loop in that department!

      • Kivaari

        I don’t like the cocked striker found in a condition one on XDs. Great trigger pull on new ones. It funny to hear people preferring to buy the made in America XDs and M1911s considering they are Croatian or Brazilian.

        • Core

          I think it’s because Springfield is an old American company that’s been around and Glockn is an Austrian company.

          • Kivaari

            Except the commercial Springfield Armory just licenses the name from the government. Does SA actually make anything in the USA? Or do they just assemble guns in the USA. Aren’t all the pistols imported complete when the come from Brazil and Croatia? Aren’t the M1A receivers cast in Brazil? Then finished here? I prefer forging actions, and dislike castings and billet techniques. Like cheaper forged AR uppers and lowers appeal to me over billet parts.

          • Core

            Most of the parts and materials used in American products are sourced overseas. The endgame is American jobs and taxes.

          • Kivaari

            I think most AR parts are made in the USA. Especially since the ATF read the GCA ’68 a couple years back. That is why we have American AKs, as nearly no “assault weapon” part can be imported.
            Like a complete CZ rifle being stopped, but a CZ pistol is OK. Very dumb laws.

          • Core

            As an American manufacturer all you need to do is finish the parts. Most material can be sourced from anywhere. I used to work for an American manufacturer and I had to lookup the definition to verify compliance. Most of our components were from outside the United States. We assembled and developed everything in house. I do agree that the firearms need to be crafted in the US for compliance if SA has a desire to submit an XD which will probably never happen. But I would prefer a XD to a Glock in a service pistol. I’m not sure how well polymer will hold up to military use and abuse. I’ve never seen weapons in the civilian sector used as hard as we used them in the Navy. And the Army aside from treating the rifles like hammers were fond of all kinds of personal modifications. I couldn’t imagine a XD or Glock surviving very long. Our Gunners built some great weapons but we were limited to what we could customize. Also I would be concerned about the Glocks chamber design under military use. I would guess the temperature extremes and high volume fire would result in a frequency of Glocks exploding, unless they alter the dimensions to better support the chamber.

          • Kivaari

            Wouldn’t worry about Glocks not being tough enough. My issue M17 was used for 10 years, I stopped counting rounds after I hit 22,000. It should have had over 30 when I retired. Glock Kaboooms were not from ordinary ammo. Most of the rounds we fired in our pistol were +P+ Federal 9BPLE (LE being law enforcement, restricted). Quite a few are used by SEALs. On the surface and under water only requires a good cleaning when done. All the Glocks I’ve seen that suffered split barrels were shot with over-stuffed cases (double charges) and using lead reloads. Glock warns against using lead bullets. Look at the you tube examples. No one likes admitting they double charged a case or used lead regardless of the admonition against it. I’d trust a Glock over any other pistol made. That said any handgun can be abused and ruined. 30 years ago Ruger demonstrated how strong the P89 wasm by welding a steel plug in the bore and cutting a slot in the slide, completely removed one side in ~1/2 inch cut. Then loading it and firing it. The barrel did not burst. Like the 1911 the case bursts at the feed ramp. I watched a fellow officer have a double charge. The magazine was shot out, the case was obviously blown apart. He cleared it, reloaded and finished qualifying. Them while cleaning it, he found a small crack in the RHS of the frame. A new $75 frame worked well. Super gluing the old one was a possibility.

          • Core

            Interesting.

          • The Ruger torture test was closer to 25-27 years ago. It was in response to the Beretta M9 slide failures. Shooting Times covered it.

          • Core

            Do you sell triggers for sks?

          • Kivaari

            No, that is a different Kivaari. We have never met. I did visit his web-site years ago. SKS triggers can be improved with a little work. I don’t know how he does his. I am more inclined to Geissele triggers in ARs. I had significant (in my book) AK and SKS collection having ~25 of each. Same with Russian, Soviet and Finnish bolt actions and several M1895 revolvers. It was fun at the time. Since I am closing in on my final earthly time, I’ve trimmed the pile to just a few serious rifles and handguns. It’s easier on my wife when I vapor lock.

          • Springfield’s FAL clones (SAR48) were from IMBEL (Brazil), and their G3 clones (SAR3/SAR8) were from EBO (Greece).

      • Core

        What would make you suspect this?

        • Personal experience.

          • Core

            Could you be more specific?

          • I’ve seen a few XDs with broken parts come into gunsmithing shops. One had a broken striker indicator, for example.

          • Core

            I haven’t seen a weapon that doesn’t break. Glocks occasionally explode. I’ve never seen or heard of a M9 exploding other than blowing a mag out due to a over charge or stacked squib. But just like the XDs plastic striker collar, the Glocks chamber support issues are very rare and can be fixed with a bit of engineering and elbow grease. I just replaced my XD Tacs striker collar/guide with a high quality aluminum one after 3000 rounds. I have the original polymer one and it shows no sign of wear or cracking and I treat the XD like the beast it is.. Another weak link is the striker retainer pin, it tends to walk under extreme use. The remedy is to expand the split pin and peen it out by the top of the slide with a slightly larger punch.

          • Sure, but to be fair to myself I only said “I suspect the XD would fail endurance testing”.

          • Core

            I would guess it would come down to the mainspring. I think the mainspring would have to be exchanged for a flat design for a service model. I use the original and haven’t had any issues at 3k. I think it’s because it’s a very thick and long spring, so it doesn’t suffer from the 1911 GI spring issue. It also looks like it may be a higher grade spring material. I would love to buy a XD made in the USA, even if the parts are made in Croatia. As far as longevity, I read an article years ago about the original model and I guess it’s pretty battle hardened before adopted by SA? You should do some research and write an article on it, I would definitely enjoy it. I’m already a fan. 🙂

  • Rick5555

    And let the race begin. That being said, it will the civilian market that truly wins. If a lot of manufactures design a new firearm and isn’t awarded the contract. Well, said company will want to recoup the investment. And offer the entry model to the civilian market. Knowing how fickle the DoD is. They won’t be satisfied with any of the entries. And elect to remain with the M9, in which Beretta will be forced to make modifications. Who knows what’s going to occur. But something tells me, the civilian market will be the benefactors.

    • Core

      Agreed. This reminds me of the Glock video with the Mexican guy laughing the entire time.

      ARMY: Hahahahaaa! We told them we would offer a pistol trial just like we did for the carbine trials. So they believed us and all these companies started developing new pistols. Hahaha!

      Just like when we said we wanted a modern rifle and we ended up using the same M4 with several modifications. We even got Glock to put a thumb safety and adjustable grip panels on their G19. Ahahaaaa!

      The people on TFB will buy all of the models submitted to the trial and in the end we will select a M9 with a plastic grip and call it M9A1. Ahaaaaaahaaa!

  • Uniform223
  • Joshua

    As much as I would love to see Glock get adopted, the M9A3 will be chosen. Theres a ton of reasons why this is so and the most important one is cost.
    The M9A3 honestly does most of what they want in the RFP, at the same time it would save them money over the M9…not something other competitors can do.
    Also the M9A3 fixes the parts that break on the M9.

    • Kivaari

      I would like to test one. The M9 is too big and slippery for me. The M9A3 seems like it reduces those complaints.

  • Kivaari

    Could any pistol be any uglier?

    • undeRGRound

      UR UGLY!!!

      😛

      • Kivaari

        I am? Older than dirt maybe.

    • Joshua

      Not to mention the fact that it has a gas system and bolt.

  • Kivaari

    I know. They have good ideas, then make them look like cap guns.
    I really like the idea behind the little folding carbines using Glock magazines. Sights being inferior to toy guns and the biggest thing, a failure to reliable shoot. I can get by with a gun that works, and has after market replacements for the toy parts. Having enough on store shelves helps as well. Does anyone have Kel-Tec pistols or carbines that actually function?

    • Phil Elliott

      Have a Su16 that has never had a failure/malfunction. That said it does have a preference for 62 gr. with which I’m getting 1″ groups at a hundred, 55 gr. not so much. But many guns are like that. Oh about 3m rds now.

      • Eric Shearer

        Holy crap! 3 million rounds so far, my hat is off to you sir!

        • Kivaari

          3m, equals 3 thousand. It gets confusing when the “m” and “k” get thrown around. Even with weights v. quantity.

        • Phil Elliott

          “m” stands for Thousand.

      • Kivaari

        That’s good. Even though I was in the gun business, about the only Kel-Tecs I’ve seen were used and defective. That soured my interest in them, and I don’t remember even ordering them for the shop. Like AMTs, I saw so many faulty M1911-types, .22 mag. pistols and Backups that I only ordered them when a customer wanted one. Then I always said I will NOT help them when the guns acted up or broke. My memory brings up images of broken and rusted stainless steel pistols. With Kel-Tec it was the cheap sights and failure to function. If your rifle works, I am happy for you. I’d like the little 9mm carbine, if it worked and didn’t have squirt-gun quality sights.

    • iakobos

      I have hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds through my Kel-tec PF9. It’s been completely reliable.

  • E.D. Sartin

    I really wish CZ would enter with their P-09 and P-07. Just recently purchased an 09, and have been amazed at the accuracy and “shootability” of this firearm.

  • anomad101

    Got a revolutionary idea, why not a .45 pistol? No, wait, not enough rounds. Like I could care if officers were a few rounds short. Man, we all had rifles.

  • Zebra Dun

    I actually am afraid to see the one the Army does pick.
    After seeing the F-35 Super aircraft that can do all things.

  • Thomas Hayes

    It sounds more like a small caliber rifle round like a 17 HMR or 22-250 to get that penetration and accuracy at 50 yds. 14″ penetration on 20% gel are normally at 10 feet.

    45ACP IS like 10″ at 10 feet!

  • FanaticallyModerate

    Looks like FN and HK are already ahead of the competition. FNP45 would be my choice.

  • T Sheehan

    Some excerpts from the aforementioned 351 page document:
    Ch 1-17: How to make untraceable deposits to General McGraft, commander, AMC Pistol Trials, APG…
    Ch 2-9: How to respond to congressional inquiry about items listed in ch 1-17
    Ch 6-9: This page left intentionally blank
    Ch 7-1: Where to submit lucrative “post Army career” high paid job offers to key personnel and evaluators
    Ch 8-1: How appropriately compensated AMC will create ludicrous standards to remove other competitors from trials, while ensuring your continued placement, aka the Unbreakable Death Ray strategy
    Ch 11-119: Indexed Nationalities of call girls preferred by the senior leadership evaluating contenders in Phase 3 trials
    Ch 11-120: Brands of cocaine preferred by senior leadership evaluating contenders in Phase 3 trials, indexed by day of the week in Appendix 3A
    Ch 12: The Total Army Materiel Corruption Process and You: How to become a No Bid Contract Success

    I’m sure they’ll have the best interests of our officers, gunners, medics etc. at heart when picking the Side Arm of the Future….

  • OPIE

    Nathaniel, I believe you may be discounting the CZ a little too much. In terms of cost-effectiveness over time, it certainly must be one of the best offerings. Its capacity is at least the same as competitors. The modular grip requirement may disqualify it, but it has already been approved by NATO. P.S. In the last three years, I have had conversations with several recent veterans regarding small arms being used by our allies. The militarized VZ58 got more respect than the M4 from the door-kicking crowd (I know that’s just a side-note), but the thing that surprised me was the unsolicited comments on how often the private operators were carrying the SP-01.

  • OPIE

    By the way, I strongly disagree with Nathaniel’s statement that the G17 has a better trigger pull than the CZ platform.

    • Raguel A’septem

      Glock “triggers” suck! If he compared a Glock to a CZ in trigger… it’s obvious he never fired a CZ!

      • Core

        I would have to agree. CZ triggers are comparable to M9 triggers. Way better than a Glock.

  • Kivaari

    In the real world .45 ball ammo is not a good performer. All my life I’ve heard the stories about hitting people in the little finger and they die or at least do acrobatics before they hit the dirt. Look at the Army’s ballistic wounds studies, and the .45 ball is not the cure.

    • It’s a *great* performer, compared to other pistol *ball* rounds, even if it *won’t* “spin a man around three times after hitting him in the hand” (and people who recite that, or talk about “knockdown power” obviously slept through basic science classes, when they discussed Newton’s Laws).

      Compared to just about any “service caliber” pistol round with a decent expanding bullet? Yeah, the .45 FMJ sucks.

      Of course, the difference between the best “service pistol” caliber and the worst in FMJ loads is kinda like arguing which snail is faster…

  • I don’t blame Ruger for opting out. If it goes like the last 100 trials, they won’t even settle on a new pistol, and it’ll just be a huge waste of time and money for these gun manufacturers.

    • chortles81

      Reminds me of all the look-sees that the Army gave to non-M16/M4 rifles and how that turned out for the industry; why WOULDN’T Ruger have learned a lesson from them?

      • Core

        I understand your perspective however, if we don’t put our best foot forward we will be left behind.

        • chortles81

          What do you mean “we will be left behind” in the context of Ruger passing on the XM17 MHS compete?

          • Core

            Our forces may not get the best bang for the buck.

          • chortles81

            “for the buck” is key here, though if the best-to-you offering doesn’t get picked then by your metric the troops wouldn’t get the best-to-you handgun system anyway… so Ruger’s stance is that it’s the cost to them of even trying to compete versus the odds of making it back, I guess because they don’t see much of a civilian market for whatever they would have attempted to offer?

          • Core

            I agree however, if Ruger has something to offer that would save lives by increasing combat effectiveness they are morally and ethically obligated to contribute. If they don’t I would say they should avoid making excuses and be forthcoming and say we don’t have a platform to offer that they believe would increase combat effectiveness.

          • chortles81

            “morally and ethically obligated”? Without getting into how… incredibly vague “increase combat effectiveness” is here, the compete can and may well be decided on stuff that has little to do with “increas[ed] combat effectiveness” for the individual soldier; “lowest bid” comes to mind, but I’m also thinking of the capacity to deliver everything solicited (handguns, ammo, accessories, spares) at whatever rate the Army might require, and the Ruger CEO’s explanation implies corporate recognition of that (“really very low likelihood of winning even if you have a much better product”).

            Ruger isn’t “morally and ethically obligated” to partake at cost and difficulty/risk to themselves when offering something “that they believe would increase combat effectiveness” is basically a minimum requirement to compete anyway… meaning that as long as *a* “M17” MHS gets selected (as opposed to the ‘hilarity’ of Individual Carbine) the troops get a better handgun whether or not it came from Ruger.

          • Core

            Are they? Do they have anything better than the M9 worth submitting? I worked with the Royal Marine Commandos and they carried the HK Enfield C and HK polymer pistols. The pistols they carried looked pretty ragged and worn. The standard troops HK polymer pistols were worse, and when you work with others and your weapons look like crap, I think it has a demoralizing effect. The Enfields were potentially more accurate at distance due to the integrated optic versus the M16. But they had too much stigma behind their development.

    • Core

      I don’t believe that the modern carbine initiative had a negative impact on the manufacturers. Quite the opposite I would say, look at the collaboration and modernization that has come out of it. If anything it taught us that the military standards are still tough to beat and that the Stoner platform is tough to beat. It proved that the Stoner platform while not without flaw can be improved. Since the initiative that firearms market has exploded with new ideas and many new models.

  • OldOldLawyer

    I have carried handguns in 4 law enforcement agencies as well as the Army and Air Force and became a CCW instructor in 1996, so this is not my first rodeo…….my thought is it is very easy to teach a newbie to be successful in striker fired guns like Glocks than any other platform out there…..the little Ruger LC9s my wife carries has a 4 lb trigger as smooth as the 1911s I have bought or built, so I wonder why Ruger would not be in the running. Even their old P95, 94,90 series meets most of the listed criteria….big and bulky, but radically reliable…that said, my old military group carries the little Sig and like them well…but it just seems to me the most important criteria is how well they actually work for for the troops…..and it also seems to me an external safety is not required in combat…when I was a park ranger I carried a Glock in a proper holster…when you pull it you are ready, when you dont need it the trigger is protected by a proper holster….nothing simplier than a Glock nor more reliable…my G19 has never failed to fire or eject since 1990…,and again, there is not much wrong with the Berretta so I wonder if the new requirement is more political than practical?

  • Core

    In my opinion every manufacturer that has something worth contributing should submit something. I understand that it’s difficult to find synergy when working through trials with the government, but where’s the competitive spirit? It sounds like a cop out to me, and we know from history that competition fuels ingenuity. I guess the companies that have all that shining brilliance to shed upon the world in the form of rugged and reliable firearms, are too busy supplying civilians with quality products to be bothered with an exhaustive and bureaucratic trial. After all even though there is a $580 million dollar contract it’s just easier to sell to the civilian population.. Yeah right.

  • Kivaari

    I can’t warm pot metal junk in rifles or pistols. Adding dollar store lipstick to that pig, leaves it still junk.

  • Steve_7

    I don’t think they’re serious, the proposal asks for the supply of the TDP so they can competitively tender for contracts, why would anyone bother to hand over their intellectual property?

    My prediction is that the XM17 will never happen and the M9 will continue.

  • anomad101

    What do you call a US military battle rifle today? A handgun. In the next 10 years the US Infantry/Marines/and all will be disarmed altogether. They will be retrained to call in airstrikes. Engaging the enemy in firefights is so passe. Of course they will have to have their front line limos, after a hard day’s night they can cruise back to their condos and swimming pools. Gun free zone, of course.

  • Kivaari

    I wonder why troops armed with the 1911A1 had so many negligent discharges.

  • Paradox

    The HK VP9 would be a great option, if HK will increase magazine capcity.

  • Core

    lol so true…