Mystery 9mm machine pistol seized in Europe

R9ARMSPISTOL1

Pictured is an unknown 9mm machine pistol which has been seized in the Netherlands and more recently in the UK. ‘R9-Arms Corp USA’ appears to be a fictional company, suggesting it has been manufactured illicitly. The model is made to a very professional standard with a milled receiver and slide, perhaps even produced in a former legitimate arms factory in a country such as Croatia. It appears to accept an Uzi type magazine and can fire semi or fully automatically.

The ATF in the USA were consulted on its origin and apparently had no matches on record.

 

R9ARMSPISTOL2

R9ARMSPISTOL3

R9ARMSPISTOL4

R9ARMSPISTOL5

R9ARMSPISTOL1

An example fitted with a suppressor was recently seized in the United Kingdom from a Dutch lorry driver.

DutchmanGun

Two examples among guns seized by Dutch police, its small size apparent:

mysterymachinepistols

Perhaps a reader out there might be able to shed more light on its origins?

Edit: looks as though my guess of Croatia may be correct, seeing as how a large number were seized there last month. Their actual source is however still unknown.

Croationsubmachinegunsseized



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  • Bungameng

    The Grip looks like from CZ vz.26, also the general dimensions look similar, just outer appearance is completely different.

  • PK

    At least one example of this item has been found in the USA as well. It produced similar headscratching as to origin, but I didn’t hear if there was any resolution as far as where it came from for certain. I couldn’t take a photograph at the time, so I’m quite happy to see that there are clear photos circulating.

    What I thought was a striker fired gun appears to be hammer fired! Also, you have one point spot on, the example I saw had an IMI 32rd Uzi magazine in place.

    • BrandonAKsALot

      I noticed the hammer right away too. It’s really a rather impressive design.

  • Dracon1201

    Damn cool looking if you ask me!

    It even has a 1913 on the bottom. I’d buy one as an SBR if they made a lookalike in the US.

    • PK

      If the auto sear were not built, and no provision made to use one, without a stock it would be a perfectly legal pistol in the USA going by Federal laws. I may end up making one, now that I’ve seen the internals!

      • Grenictosal

        The slide and lower seem to be made from the same size of square bar stock while the trigger guard is a separate piece bolted on. Looks pretty straight forward to mill..

      • Anon. E Maus

        I encourage you to do that and to post images somewhere when you do.
        Try to get that Walther laser and everything.

  • Cameron Bissell

    very cool

  • Tim Pearce

    Time/dimension traveler weapon.

  • That thing is really quite compact!

    • iksnilol

      I kinda want one, with a suppressor and sidefolding stock it would be a decent laptop gun.

      • CS

        Don’t forget to paint it glossy white and add an Apple logo.

        • Ripley

          An Apple gun would need a pocket full of adapters.

      • Giolli Joker

        Or a sidefolding suppressor to match the package…

        • Coolhand77

          I like how you think

      • Gregory Peter Dupont

        Makes me think of a ” Stechkin for the New Age”.

      • Coolhand77

        ooooh, I want one too! As long as it doesn’t weigh a ton and we can improve the grip geometry. Maybe something like the TMP grip shape?
        Or make the grip interchangeable so you can use Glock or other magazines with just a grip swap…just thinking outside the box here

  • Patrick the Canadian

    The internals look quite similar to that of a BRS 99

  • Lance

    I also see hi-point 9mm pistols on the table. Seems they make there way to Europe even.

    • Tom

      I only see Glocks,Berrettas, a Tokarev and Walther no High Point.

  • Mystick

    Interesting… I’ve never favored externally reciprocating slides in a fully automatic firearm… imagine snagging the skin between the thumb and pointer finger with a cyclic rate! Not a problem with this particular design, but still…

    • iksnilol

      Where do you keep your hands for that to be a realistic issue?

      I mean, nobody complains about reciprocating slides on pistols, and I would argue that there’s a higher chance of slide bite than charging handle bite.

      • FarmerB

        Nobody complains about the Glock-18 with a reciprocating slide 🙂
        Having fired a G.18, I see absolutely no point in a full auto pistol – unless you use some carbine conversion to make it two handed.

        • iksnilol

          Well, the Glock is like one of the worst pistols to turn full auto. High bore axis and low weight does not a controllable machine pistol make. I have hope that electric triggers could make practical machine pistols, since you can slow down the rate of fire with an electric trigger.

          • Mystick

            Or you could add weight to the moving parts, like the slide…. a little goes a surprisingly long way. I have even seen people remove material to increase the cyclic rate on the logic that more shots will go downrange before ergonomic recoil effects are observed.

          • iksnilol

            That’s true, but won’t a heavy slide have more momentum when moving back and forth?

            Like I said, a Glock is a bad starting point for a machine pistol.

          • Mystick

            Indeed…. it’s a balancing act.

          • iksnilol

            I was thinking more if you have a heavy slide going back and forth that it won’t really be stable.

            I mean, you mentioned firing a MAC and finding it way more controllable than another gun (a Glock 18?).

          • Giolli Joker

            Bore axis is pretty low on the Glock, especially compared to most hammer fired pistols.
            It’s indeed lightweight.

          • iksnilol

            Wouldn’t call it low, but it isn’t high either.

          • Ripley

            IV8888 did a meltdown video of the G17 full auto recently, with stock.

      • Mystick

        I’m referring to slide bites. I have a 1911 that bites me every once in a while…. it’s an old AMT without that long flare on the grip safety and I have big hands. I don’t have a problem with charging handles. It’s just that one part. But a full auto reciprocating slide is the whole top of the gun moving around.

        • Guru

          I think you may be a bit mixed up. A Glock has one of the lowest bores of any pistol. A MAC 11 has a very high bore line. The MAC is also straight blow back requiring a heavy bolt, although it is enclosed it makes no functional difference you still have all that mass, about 1 lb moving back and forth. With a Glock you have a Browning style locking system and so needs much less slide mass. The factors that make the Glock 18 hard to control are the total weight and the high ROF. The MAC might be heavier but has more reciprocating mass above the shooters hand and also has a high ROF. Both have a very limited use in pistol form. I too have shot both.

    • Tom

      I imagine you ether grip the suppressor with your off hand or just use a proper pistol grip which will stop slide bite anyway. Its not an elegant solution but considering how tiny this thing is (and presumable) its intended user base I think its forgivable.

  • Asdf

    I want!

  • iksnilol

    Ah, Croatia how I love thee and thine cheap SMGs intended for criminals. Look up the Agram for something similar (small SMG popular amongst criminals).

    Also, look up the price of guns in England. IIRC somebody sold a Skorpion with suppressor and ammo for 15k GBP. And Makarovs were going for 1200 GBP a couple of years ago. I am of course talking about illegal guns.

    • Tom

      Never heard of prices being that high, but its not exactly the circle I walk in. From what I am told Criminals here in the UK often “rent” guns so that keeps the cost down. The real problem they have is getting the ammo which means they often load their own but do so poorly the ammunition is (fortunately) less than lethal.

      • iksnilol

        Well, considering the price of guns, I understand why they’d rent them. You also have the added benefit of the weapon not being connected to you after you return it. They probably load with matchhead powder, or powder from blanks. I remember reading PA Luty’s book on homemade ammo. He used brass tubing and blanks (the blanks already have the primer and everything). I can’t remember what he used for the rim.

        The prices I got from newspapers:

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244453/Mr-Bigs-branded-merchants-death-buying-15-000-Skorpion-machine-gun-settle-drugs-turf-war.html

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1106804/The-usual-suspect-How-Baikal-Britains-favourite-killing-machine.html

        I don’t know anyone in the UK, I stick to mainland Europe. Not exactly my circle either, but I am friendly and kind to most people, it pays off, nobody wants to harm the “good guy” that is known in the town for being helpfull and good. + you get to hear a lot of interesting things and stories.

        • Micki

          Rule of thumb: if you read it in the British news, it didn’t happen like that. If you read it in the Mail it probably didn’t happen at all. (And this goes double for anything firearms related.)

          • iksnilol

            Well, I know some details might be sketchy but I believe i can see through that. Still, thanks for the heads up.

    • Anonymoose

      *intended for criminals and Islamic extremists.

      • iksnilol

        You say that like it is a bad thing. What happened to “freedom”, “free market” and “free choices”?

        The hypocrisy of you westerners is mind boggling sometimes. 😛

        • skusmc

          Westerners and even Americans aren’t some kind of universal hive mind though. I always get a kick out of the “you Americans” talk.

          • iksnilol

            I know, in case you didn’t notice I was being a bit sarcastic or snarky.

        • John

          It’s a byproduct of popular culture. Good guys use the MP5 and AR-15. Bad guys use the Uzi and the AK-47. Both sides use Desert Eagles because they look big and imposing.

          • iksnilol

            I don’t quite follow. What’s that got to do with capitalistic hypocrisy (AKA the “free” world complaining about the firearms black market)?

            A rapper in my homeland sang: “Znam ove nove mangupe, oni koriste magnume”. Which translates to: “I know these new morons, they use magnums”. I thought about that when you mentioned the Desert Eagle.

  • avconsumer2

    Wow. Kind of a frankenpistol, but legit work. Would love to shoot it.

  • Anon. E Maus

    That’s one hell of a nice looking little machinepistol. Is there video demonstration of it firing?

  • Ken

    Probably makes more sense to mark it USA than to leave it unmarked. If you leave it unmarked, then authorities know instantly that there is a shop making SMG’s somewhere and customers think it’s an improvised gun. By putting fake US markings on it, it sends authorities searching halfway around the world for a nonexistent factory, and the customers believe they’re getting a quality, US made firearm.

    • Nigel Tolley

      But don’t they know they can get into serious trouble for putting a false “Made in…” on their product? They could get a fine!
      😉

  • MPWS

    Consider Turkey; they have the capability.

    • iksnilol

      To sell small time illicit firearms?

      That’s a bit of a stretch.

  • TheRealKivaari

    Honestly? With the technology (Interwebz and such) these days you can build your own CNC mill or just purchase a Chinese one for not so much, and learn how to make guns yourself, this isn’t rocket science. Look up the Defence Distributed with the GhostGunner mill designed to make AR15 lowers, comes with plans and everything, not surprisingly someone had a similar idea.

    • lowell houser

      That’s what I’m talking about. Defcad took the first step when they released their 3D printable stuff, but no one has followed up on that. You can’t 3D print a barrel or a bunch of other components. And they what do you fire out of it?

      Bottom line there needs to be a resource with a step by step recipe to make smokeless gun powder and primers, press cartridge cases, etc. AND diy versions of any firearms related tools like bullet swagers and cut-rifling machines. If every single garage or cheap apartment could be converted into a small output factory gun control fails because it’s simply unenforceable.

      • MrEllis

        The assumption is everyone wants any idiot to have a machine pistol.

      • iksnilol

        You can get primers from blanks, powder can be gotten from matchheads.

        • Tassiebush

          If you ever read homemade guns and homemade ammo by Ronald b brown he describes how to make other more potent propellants than match heads and most importantly how to make and reload primers. It’s all at a level where you could make it even if options like blanks aren’t available.

          • iksnilol

            I think I have a copy. IIRC PA Luty also wrote about how to make blackpowder and how to reload primers. Though he recommended blanks and matches for obvious reasons.

          • Josh

            a good firearm propellant is grains of nitrocellulose…. which is one of the easiest nitrations for an amateur chemistry enthusiast to pursue. It’s often noted as the first and “most forgiving”.

            You won’t get match ammo, but it will reliably go bang with a bit of simple experimentation.

          • Tassiebush

            Yeah it seems to be a fairly simple thing. It’s interesting that film made of nitrocellulose has been cut up into small pieces for use as propellant too.

        • jonspencer

          If they are smuggling a gun in, how hard is it to smuggle a box or two of ammo along with.
          Or they could smuggle the ammo in with the drugs.

          • iksnilol

            It isn’t hard to smuggle stuff, it is hard to get your hands on stuff. Think about it, do you think I can just go to Norma and ask to buy some ammo without a paper trail?

            Most of what you see on the criminal market is legit surplus stuff (leftovers from wars and Soviet Union). + there are people who buy ammo legally and then resell a bit less legally. Those latter people are your source for good ammo like HP and SP or just rin of the mill match ammo. Thankfully NATO is making it easier to supply the black market.

      • JB

        The guys that designed the Defcad Liberator are still churning out stuff. Search out FOSSCAD.

  • lowell houser

    Would it have killed them to torrent the solidworks 3D models and blueprints? I’ve got an updated AR18 design bouncing around in my brain and when I get that working it’s totally going P2P just because governments don’t like it when you do that. The only way to beat their laws is to render them completely unenforceable because your “benevolent” rulers won’t legalise these if they can at all possibly help it.

    • John

      >Would it have killed them to torrent the solidworks 3D models and blueprints?

      It may, quite literally.

  • Southpaw89

    Seems a lot more complex than most underground firearms, the amount of care that went into manufacturing this suggests that its probably pretty reliable.

  • EHW2

    I swear I’ve seen this gun before. It looks SOOOOO familiar, but I can’t remember where I saw it.

    • EHW2

      It must be an unauthorized clone of some gun
      Right now my nest lead is pm63 rak

  • PigSmoker

    You need to get Ian from Forgotten Weapons and this thing together in front of a camera. Immediately. I’ve got twenty bucks towards that goal, but I want raw hi res video if I’m backing it.

  • The Invisible Swordsman

    Is there anyone who can ID the pistols along the top? Especially a couple of those in the top left corner.

    • uisconfruzed

      That’s the Pew-Pew model 19

    • Josh

      Top left of the very bottom picture I see one 1911 and one mystery pistol. Might be a CZ?

  • uisconfruzed

    That’s the Pew-Pew model 19

  • Phil Hsueh

    FYI, the possessive form of it is not it’s, it’s its (no apostrophe). It’s is the contraction for it is.

    • Matt

      The Firearms Blog sorely needs an editor. Almost every article posted contains some combination of misspelled words, grammatical errors, and incomplete sentences.

  • Hőss Károly

    former jugoslavia – slovenia or croatia comes to my mind . it’s a nice , efficient design .

  • Josh

    Are those civilian blasting caps I see there in that mess?

    Concerning….

  • joeyskylynx

    I would buy this firearm. Like if they came to America, set up a company, made these… I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

  • Rob

    Probably could shed light….but not going to. Arms are a human right.

  • Alex

    These look like converted blank guns to me. Question, if a rifled barrel is used, and it is not full auto, would that be legal in the us? Building from scratch or 80% is legal, and there are very high quality blank 9mm available. Can’t find a straight answer on legality. these new ones aren’t the zinc starter pistol s we grew up with, some like the ekol jackal (not legal to make full auto from imported parts) stand up to 9mm full auto,15 rounds fast. My friend has a few, the beretta copy of a 92 even fits a real 92slide! (Almost)