Rome107 writes …

Choose your side!

On top is my Izhmash Saiga in 7,62×39 with folding stock, Surefire L4 flashlight and AK74 muzzle brake. Folded length is 60 cm what is the minimum required length here. Internals are modified to use all AK mags. As coming from Izhmash you need to use proprietary mags at nearly 10x the cost. Docter Sight reddot for it is on the way…

Underneeth is my AR15 from Oberland Arms in .223. It has a custom 12 3/4″ barrel, fitted 2 chamber muzzle brake, Dueck Defense 45° iron sights, Eotech XPS 2 holosight, Hera Arms 12″ rail handguard and Magpul furniture and some minor tweeks…

Thanks Rome!

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  • Budogunner

    Before the war starts, I’d just like to point out an oft ignored point. Because of US Law, it is a lot cheaper to SBR an AR-15 and have loads of uppers in different calibers than to SBR a ton of AKs. This is just a convenience of the AR design and where the serial number goes.

    As such, I like ARs in 5.56 NATO, 9mm Parabellum, .300 BLK, .22lr, etc. I have a cheap bullpup SKS for my 7.62×39 fix.

    • David W.

      I’d still rather have a short AK. I love AR’s, but the in the war of the shorties the AK is king.

      • El Duderino

        Agree. Folding stock AK SBR in 7.62×39 is pretty much one and done. I’ve never seen the point of 5.56mm out of a really short barrel. It’s like the .357 snub of the shoulder fired world.

        • iksnilol

          Eh, .357 snubs are nice. You can use .38 special in them while having extra weight from it being made for .357.

    • n0truscotsman

      That and if you burn through barrels after years of valorous fighting with (Insert Enemy A Here), the AR is far easier to replace than a AK barrel.

      ARs make far more sense now. With newer buffer springs and buffers, it is also possible to bridge the once significant “temperament/reliability” gap between 10.5 inch uppers and 16 inch ones. Oh you just run H2s? you’re gtg.

  • Naked Frog

    I have to go with my AR it like Lego blocks that can kill. while the AK is very fun and practical its like playing with a stick sword, its fun but at the end of the day its still a stick.

    • Dracon1201

      No, it’s like playing with a radio controlled shark with FRICKING LAZER BEAMS.

      • Old Fart

        Uh-uh, those have been placed on the endangered species list. We have ill-tempered piranhas though…

        • Dracon1201

          Fine. I’ll take the Piranhas. With Lazers.

          • Grindstone50k

            Due to our new energy efficiency policy, the lasers have been replaced with very bright LED bulbs.

          • Dracon1201

            THAT TEARS IT! THE GOV’T HAS TO GO.

          • Old Fart

            Let’s go mop ’em up.

          • Old Fart

            No! We want friggin’ laser beams! Why can’t we have friggin’ ill-tempered piranhas with friggin’ laser beams on their friggin’ heads??!!!

  • Taylor TX

    Love em both, Ive debating on buying a 7.62×39 upper just for the lolz lately as I do not have an AKs yet. A 12.75 barrel just seems like an odd length to me, but to each his own, the matching muzzle device is a nice touch.

  • Mikhail Kalashnikov

    I have to go with the Stoner type rifle.

  • Dracon1201

    Obviously the AK.

    • Old Fart

      I beg to differ. It strongly depends on the AO. Overall, the AR is superior, MOUT are the 7.62×39’s only real edge. Outside these parameters, the 5.56/.223 spanks the 7.62 Soviet.

      • jpcmt

        To simply pass one off as superior to the other or to even articulate one ‘edge’ over the other to make it superior is simply ignorant. Both are EQUALLY reliable as the other, both have the same accuracy as the other (on average, both platforms field 2 to 5 MOA in their military use), they’re both as effective as each other at their effective distances, they’re both about the same size, and in 5.45 vs. 5.56, they’re the same weight when carrying a full battle load.

        • El Duderino

          Really?

          7.62x39mm/5.45x39mm AK (hereafter just called AK) consistently feeds and extracts more reliably than the 5.56x45mm DI AR (hereafter just called AR). Case taper, huge extractor, smoother piston stroke — just works better.

          AR consistently is more accurate with rack grade guns. Sure, you can massage an AK to be pretty accurate, but it’s a lot harder. This is settled! I’ve never seen a 5 MOA AR that was assembled correctly with ammo matching the barrel twist rate. Ever. The Bell curves are not the same.

          AK with the same barrel length will consistently be a heavier load-out, even with polymer/bakelite mags. Steel mags, forget it.

          Notice the word consistently — there are exceptions but this stuff is not news to anyone familiar with both platforms.

          • jpcmt

            You don’t appear to be acquainted with experience enough to qualify your antiquated remarks. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago people were saying that but in the advent of endless youtube demonstrations, both scientific and non, they clearly operate with equal reliability. My experience actually has ARs running far more reliably but I have seen overwhelming evidence that ‘in general’ they are equally reliable platforms. I have a spikes AR for my wife and a wasr for myself, both with weaponlight and microdot optics..they both weigh 7.7lbs loaded. But yes, a serbian AK with its thicker receiver and barrel is another pound almost, even heavier in 5.45. More personal experience, which is not an accurate sampling to give the blanket statement of ‘in general for all ARs and AKs’, is that for the last dozen or so ARs I’ve had and 6 or so AKs, they’ve always been 2-3 MOA out of the box and locked down on a sled. I have yet to see anyone with those guns, in equal price points, do any different. Again, that’s a small sampling, i’ll gladly agree with the masses on forums full of the nerdiest, most scientific, most thorough, and most experienced experts who’ve said what I said initially.

          • El Duderino

            Sure…call out my personal credibility when you don’t know a thing about me.

            I’m actually genuinely interested to find out how you took a 7.5lb WASR (empty), inserted a 18-24oz loaded 30rnd magazine (ranging from Thermold to Yugo steel), stuck on a light and optic, and got a 7.7lb rifle. This is really easy with a 16″ AR ‘specially with a pencil barrel.

            You can agree with your nerds and I’ll agree with my firsthand experience although we may be talking about different things here. I’m not really interested in sled accuracy — unless you’re going to coax mount your weapon on a tank this isn’t going to come into play in the real world. I’m talking supported benchrest accuracy and the AR platform consistently wins in this department.

          • iksnilol

            Uh, benchrest accuracy isn’t practical accuracy. Benchrest is as useless standard for measuring as locking the rifle down in a sled.

          • n0truscotsman

            Generally he is correct. They both have roughly equivalent accuracies, reliability, and weight. Similar, and one specific gun certainly is superior than the other when closely examining specific attributes, but, as a generalization, they are rifles.

            The Army claims 4 MOA for M4 carbines and M16s. Sure, the family is more capable of better accuracy than that, but its a good generalized rule of thumb. A realistic expectation before somebody gets bent out of shape over Arfcom’s member waving fest showing “sub-MOA!!! OMG!”.

            And after you add optics, a IR-laser (if you roll that way), a sling, and weapon light, they both will be within the ballpark of 8-10 lbs, if not a tad more. with a + or – if 1-1.5 lbs difference between the two.

            Finally, reliability. They both work. There are ARs with tens of thousands of reliably fed rounds through them. Coupled with high quality magazines and ammunition, the gap has shrunk considerably to where there is no discernible difference IMO.

          • El Duderino

            Well there are generalities and realities here.

            The AKM IS heavier than the M4, even more so with a loaded mag. It’s not a huge difference (as you noted) but it’s enough to notice if you pick each of them up at the local gun store.

            As for accuracy, meh, I guess I’m not going to convince you guys that the AR is, on average, more accurate and easier to score hits with in different firing positions. Please send me pics from a Camp Perry match with AK users taking the podium.

            Both rifles work, sure. I’m not rehashing Vietnam dirty powder stories here. The failure rate, especially in semi, is very close. I’ll stick with my opinion that the AK is more forgiving, more tolerant of abuse, and will chug along better than MOST ARs out there.

          • n0truscotsman

            “I guess I’m not going to convince you guys that the AR is, on average, more accurate and easier to score hits with in different firing positions.”
            I never argued otherwise if you cared to examine my comment closely. The AR has the advantage in this aspect, even though they are both generally capable of 3-400 meter man target effectiveness.
            You are getting wrapped around the axle comparing your specific differences to the other individual’s generalities.

      • Dracon1201

        If I have to take a shot with either of these rifles over MOUT distances, I won’t.

        I’ll either get closer or leave.

        Besides, most of the AO around here is either super flat, with sparse copses of woodland, or complete MOUT terrain. No hills, no in between. Frankly, it won’t matter which one I take, because they will both work equally well.

        • OperationalOperator

          Holy crap, enough with the operator mallninja acronyms already. Besides, mout is military operations in urban terrain, not long distance at all. I can only assume you thought it was mountains or something.

          • Dracon1201

            If you saw the comment I was responding to, he indicated that outside of Military Operations in Urban Terrain the Armalite Rifle would be better (indicating longer ranges) which was what I was talking about.

      • GearHeadTony

        You’ll like the AR if MOA is your MO, but the AK can keep SOs on the DL. MOUT is moot if you are MIA or POW. In this case, the AK ammo would be more RA, unless you’re UF, in which case, you’re SOL.

        • dave

          good lord can you use any more acronyms?

          • David Sharpe

            Haha, I think that was his point.

        • RICH

          ????????

        • RICH

          LMAO !

      • Esh325

        I don’t think it’s honestly even fair to compare an older version of a rifle in different caliber to basically the latest incarnation of the AR15. The recently released Saiga MK-107 has vastily improved ergonomics and soon to be issued AK-12.

        • Old Fart

          Absolutely true! I’ll agree on that.

    • Grindstone50k

      AR for me, mainly due to ergonomics.

  • JQPub

    Now that is a bad assed pair of shorties you got there, sir. Beautiful.

  • JQPub

    oh, as far as choosing, I’d take either or both… but if the AR was 300 BLK, I’d have to go AR over AK.

  • BearSlayer338

    I’d take the AK cause I know it would work even if it got dropped in the mud with its action open,can’t say the same for the AR-15.

    • jpcmt

      Sure you can. There’s plenty of youtube videos demonstrating how they’re equally reliable to various tests.

      • JV

        AR cant pass the ham sandwich test

        • Sam Schifo

          That’s why I prefer the AK, I typically forget to remove my stored ham sandwich from inside my receiver before firing.

        • jpcmt

          Touché. Damned that Mattv2009 and his food tests!

      • BearSlayer338

        No it can’t the AR15 is a weak design and if mud gets into the bolt carrier it won’t work.

        • jpcmt

          Well that’s ignorant. A ‘weak design?’ Which of the two platforms has an open hole into the action? Which has a dust cover that COMPLETELY keeps dust and mud out until it fires and isn’t part of a safety lever? Look at some videos bro, when equally hit with dirt and mud, both left in silt in a stream or when poured over actions, they both jam equally. I’m an AK lover and prefer the platform merely out of style (because they’re both reliable and accurate when used by an honest user), but you’re parroting old myths about the AR. Look up a video with Mike Pannone repeatedly burrying a simple Spikes AR15 and firing a full mag each time…like 8 times. That alone would not work with an AK with the safety off.

          • BearSlayer338

            Actually that would be a piece of cake for an AK,AK’s have worked even with guts from the last guy using in the action 90% of of other guns wouldn’t continue working through that without a cleaning.

            Get over your AR-15 fanboyism it is the least practical 5.56 weapon in current use,from a reliability stand point.
            AR and many other weapons can not stand up to AK reliability,there are a few that can but they are not AR-15’s.The AR-15 has a dust cover because even small amounts of crud will gum up the action,the AK does not because it was designed to go through the dirt,mud,and guts and still keep fighting.Not to mention a lot of AR-15 have problems with steel cased ammo,and they won’t run very well without lube.An AK can run for years without having a drop of lube whiles still having the action exposed to dirt and mud.

            Show me just one AR-15 that doesn’t have lube and is being shot a ton than gets a bunch of mud in the action and continues to work reliably.Don’t get me wrong the AR-15 is great civillian rifle but it is not a rifle I would ever consider as a SHTF rifle.I’d take a Sig 551 or an AK over any AR-15,even if the AR-15 was fullauto and the Sig and the AK were semiauto.If your gun needs lube in someway or another to function it is not combat ready.

          • n0truscotsman

            You got me there. Brilliant satire. Well played!

        • n0truscotsman

          if mud gets into any bolt carrier, they wont work. The AR15, as it happens, is extremely resistant to dirt and mud entering the bolt carrier because of the design feature of its upper receiver. Most guns make it very difficult for this to happen anyways, say for an M14.

          Try putting an AK on fire and getting mud and dirt in the fire control group via the opening between the receiver and cover. It will last about as long as a AR15 with mud in the bolt carrier.

  • Anonymoose

    Why not both?

    • Grindstone50k

      MERIFLAUGE

  • Maxcoseti

    This guy is clearly of the short barrel type of people xD

  • Mario AK

    those who use muzzle brakes and those who also use muzzle brakes

  • Wolfgar

    Why choose, I carry an AK in the woods where we have mountain lions Grizzly and black bears, wolves and the most scary of all the two legged predators. I also have my own custom AR-15 for multi gun and home defense. There both good platforms if one chooses the right job for them.

  • Lance

    I want to shoot past 100 yard accurately so use the AR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Grindstone50k

      I want to use more exclamation points so use the KB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Bob

    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don’t.

  • iksnilol

    7.62×39 works better with short barrels than 5.56 with short barrels.

    Regarding AKs though, I have run some numbers through a ballistic calculator and don’t really see much of a difference between 20 and 30 cm barrels at around 300-400 meters.

  • PJ

    There are THREE Types of People in this world:
    AK People
    AR People
    and the Gun Hating People.

  • guest

    For someone living in USA, an AK with AK mags but chambered in 5.56 would be the ultimate SHTF rifle as it would use native calibre yet imported reliability 🙂

    BTW the problem I often have with “comparisons” like this is that the above rifle is a mil-spec (not as in US mil-spec, but as in actual assault rifle “civilianized” to be semiauto), while the rifle below looks like a tacticool rifle because of the muzzle brake.
    Why muzzle brake? If it’s intended to be be a “tactical” carbine, a short barrel and a muzzle brake spells flashes so bright the shooter will shine like a door on a wh0rehouse. The muzzle brake and the random color choices points too much to sports/fun/tacticool, yet the detailed comparison points to a tactical choice. People better make up their minds if they want a SHTF rifle, or a sporting rifle. This is like attending a F1 race with an M6. fast care, sure, stylish too, but you’re either trying to get p*ssy OR winning an F1 race. Can’t do both simultaneously with one vehicle. Same thing here.

    • iksnilol

      The AR is probably a competition gun, explains the short barrel and brake.

      • Tierlieb

        Judging from the choice of guns, this seems to be a pic from Germany (Oberland Arms is German and this specific Izmash rifle is one of the few models they sell here). Then: Nope, it can’t be a competition gun. While the comp makes you think that, the short barrel precludes it from being bought on a sporting permit (42cm, 16.75″ minimum for guns based on military designs) and therefore competition use. Stupid, eh? That’s Germany. Still great guns.

        • iksnilol

          Doesn’t the brake count as a part of the barrel if it is permanently attached.

    • kyphe

      A large part of the reliability of the AK is due to the shape of the ammunition for easy extraction.

    • john huscio

      Ive got an slr106fr which fits that description perfectly………and I’d trade it for an AK in 7.62×39…

  • RevolverRob

    Actually, there are three kinds of people in the world. AR people, AK people, and people that choose correctly FAL people.

    • iksnilol

      Pfft, G3 is way more superior to the FAL.

      I mean, FAL, more like FAIL, amirite?

  • lowell houser

    There are two….. one type that believes in continuing a stupid sixty year old argument that is in fact stupid, and another that buys a Bushmaster ACR, Robinson XCR, SCAR, Sig 5.556, etc because they’d rather get with the times.

    • CommonSense23

      And the type that buys the acr,xcr,scar,and sig absolutely hate how it outperformed by the AR.

  • john huscio

    This has reawakened my desire for an N-PAP under folder….

  • derf

    There does seem to be two types of people in this world: to wit, those who classify people into two types and those who don’t…..

  • Big R

    I love my AR carbine, but I do have a folding stock AK that shoots the 5.56 round also. I wouldn’t part with either one of them.

  • Fegelein

    There are two kinds of people on TFB, the kind who jump into AK vs AR flamebait, and the kind who prefer to silently groan from the sidelines.