Breaking News: BATFE Released a Comment About the Proposed M855 Ban/ NO Ban at this time

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At least 80,000 people have so far commented and told the BATFE what they think of the proposed ban.

The BATFE issued the following statement:

Thank you for your interest in ATF’s proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.

Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.

You can read the announcement on the BATFE Website at:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html

I’m not sure what they are saying other than they are not making a ruling until after they review the comments.  How do you readers interpret it?



Tom is a former Navy Corpsman that spent some time bumbling around the deserts of Iraq with a Marine Recon unit, kicking in tent flaps and harassing sheep. Prior to that he was a paramedic somewhere in DFW, also doing some Executive Protection work between shifts. Now that those exciting days are behind him, he has embraced his inner “Warrior Hippie” and assaults 14er in his sandals and beard, or engages in rucking adventure challenges while consuming craft beer. To fund these adventures, he writes medical software and builds websites and mobile apps. His latest venture is as one of the founders of IronSights.com; a search engine for all things gun related. He hopes that his posts will help you find solid gear that will survive whatever you can throw at it–he is known (in certain circles) for his curse…ahem, ability…to find the breaking point of anything.


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  • Wang

    We still need to be vigilant thought. Thank you TFB for reporting on the proposed ban in time to let us have timely response to BATF.

  • M.M.D.C.

    The NRA seems to be declaring victory, so I’ll call it a win.

    As for the good ol’ BATF, they get all the bad press and none of the added authority – so that’s a win win as far as I’m concerned.

    Now if we can only calm down long enough for the ammo prices to drop…

    • Pete Sheppard

      This is just one battle; the WAR is still on…Stay alert!!

    • 300 Blackout

      Lol win heh…just a temporary cease fire until they figure out another way to try and screw us.

  • Don Ward

    So I guess this means the panic buying and price gouging on 5.56 ammunition from the Lil’ Debbie-fed preppers and retailers will come to an end. Right?

    Right?

    • RickH

      Probably not for several months. But it will be great a year from now when the panic buyers decide to sell the ammo they bought in haste!

      • avconsumer2

        People sell ammo?!

      • MrEllis

        I don’t know a single person who wants M855. But yes, the flighty ones will settle down so .223/5.56 will be on shelf again.

        • Now you do. My order disappeared on the way here.

          • MrEllis

            To be sold at a higher price or are you saying the ATF placed an injunction on your order and seized it? Because if they did you would have paperwork.

            Edit: Also, why do you want M855? It’s a sub-par round at best? It’s funny, all the “people in the know” were writing this round off for a good ten years prior to this and now, it’s practically apple pie.

          • Squirreltakular

            Not sure how M855 is “sub-par”. I would think that after all the debunking that has gone on, people would realize that it kills people pretty well. Also, it’s great at intermediate barrier penetration.

          • MrEllis

            Actually it kills people pretty poorly at closer ranges. If you read anything prior to 2015 about it (a lot of stuff 2006 on) returning military and studies start to show ice picking and less than ideal performances. We have better rounds now, the military has better rounds now, there are much better rounds period. And I’m not talking fancy match ammo or the buck plus a round stuff. Depending on your gun and barrel length there is always a better option than M855. The only time it’s a good option is when it’s all you have.

          • Squirreltakular

            Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I spent 8 years shooting the stuff and am confident in its accuracy and ability to penetrate barriers. I never had to/ got to kill anyone with the stuff, but I have worked with plenty of people that did and have only heard one complaint. A former MSOB guy swore by the .308 and the SCAR because of a bad day he had.

            Can anyone find the study they did recently on “fleet accuracy”? I think that was the term for it, where they discussed how manufacturing variances caused different round performance. I remember reading it, and they talked about how if enough yaw is imparted on the round prior to it stabilizing, there is a ton of potential for catastrophic fragmentation at short range.

            In any situation, and using any particular cartridge, the case for the importance of shot placement is still huge. I’d rather have a guy shooting a 50 at me miss 10 times than be hit once by a .22.

          • RickH

            It’s not just this round, but all .223/5.56. All the nervous nellies lump it together with the other, so all is snatched up.

    • I sure hope so!

    • M

      From the way I saw people you’d think society had already broken down and there was a Mad Max society.

      There were forums where guys bought the dies to 5.56 and thousands upon thousands of brass casings and reloading material “for the long haul when assault rifle ammunition is banned” and to salvage casings that other people leave behind. A lot were also already talking like 5.56 was already banned.

      • Ethan

        Its only an over-reaction until the day that its not. 🙂

    • Bill

      no, they’ll all be loading the PMags they paid 80 dollars for each during that neurotic anxiety attack.

  • avconsumer2

    I would bet my left nut at this point, somebody on the left / anti- front is getting a humongous kickback from this somewhere.

    • MrEllis

      From whom, the NRA?

      • avconsumer2

        Yeah… you’re right. Probably too conspiracy theorist. But man… you wanna sell something, A LOT of something fast, start moving some legislation toward banning it… watch that stuff fly off the shelf! (’09 “assault weapons” ban attempt, this attempt, etc.)

    • Y-man

      “Nut” rang out from the beleaguered troops in the Ardennes.

      The left one had been left at the doorstep of the befuddled anti-gun lobby…

  • roguetechie

    Anyone who believes it’s time to declare victory is playing right into the hands of those who want total dominion over the population.

    Have you been paying attention at all? This is how it works… Release information about potential flashpoint, Stoically take the initial beating and public humiliation, Release a statement saying they need time to get the facts straight, Wait 3-18 months, Slam the door shut on the ban/whatever they proposed initially AND a bunch more stuff added in at the last second!!!

    Why do you think the DSM 5 is written the way it is? How many graduating classes of new doctors psych and otherwise who have spent almost a DECADE being indoctrinated that you must be SICK to believe what we do …How many graduating classes before they are the majority in the medical community?

    Oh you think that the slippery slope argument is a fallacy? So did all of Europe in the 30’s.

    • anon

      Thats some heavy duty tinfoil there.

      There is no conspiracy. There are no reptilian overlords plotting against our gun rights in a closed room where they keep obamas birth certificate. The problem is simple. Antigunners hate that we do something that they dislike, which them hating it is fine by me as long as they don’t infringe on my rights.

      The solution for this problem is simple. when they propose a new whatever they want to pass, even if it is something as simple as you cannot paint your gun to look like a smiling banana, we all fight back via writing them, faxing them, and alerting our local politicians. That worked for AWB2012 and M855.

      And as far as those who have been indoctrinated into hating guns… Come on. Im 23, and almost all of my friends (including the hipsters, nerds, anime kids, and stoners. especially the hipsters. I hate hipsters, but they are useful in that sense) are adamant supporters of 2A, because for the last decade they have been doing nothing except playing call of duty, battlefield, HALO, or any of the other thousand shooter video games that make up that multi-billion dollar industry.

      Notice how there is a bunch of dumb zombie gun related stuff that you people all love to complain about? that is the market trying to reach out to a new younger user base.

      Keep an eye on your government, fight any new gun laws, and most importantly, don’t always take such an elitist attitude to new shooters. If you want this hobby we have to exist more than another generation or two, then take some 18-24 year old out to the range and make a pro 2a supporter.

      • Phillip Cooper

        All this big talk, mocking others and not man enough to show your name.

        Yeah, totally legit.

        • MrEllis

          I’ll show my name, you’re talking crazy.

          Who exactly is “they?” Who pays them why do they want complete control over an already docile population that buys everything they’re suppose to and asks no questions? Who exactly is trying to control you and why are you the only one able to see this huge conspiracy that must involve millions?

          • Panfried

            ^ this. Also, Rekt.

          • Ethan

            I’ll play the devils advocate just to make things interesting: If there was a “they”, do you think they would generally be careless enough to make themselves known publicly? 😛

            Just food for thought.

          • anon

            “if there was a they”
            it would be a government entity
            “do you think they would generally be careless enough to make themselves known publicly? :-P”
            Have you ever been to the DMV
            Do you think shaniqua can keep a secret? what about the ATF agents who asked about alex c.’s 100+ year old guns asking if it was a SCAR-H?

            I do believe you are seriously overestimating the average government worker.

          • MrEllis

            It’s all a ploy to lull you into a false sense of security. The thing about conspiracy nuts is you can’t appease them with logic, they don’t work that way. They don’t exhaust the logical, the normal or the mundane they skip right to whatever it takes to preserve their world view.

          • Ethan

            There is no need for that tone.
            1 – I am not a conspiracy theorist. I have simply asked you to have more of an open (read not disparaging of everyone who disagrees with you) mind.
            2 – “Nut” is not a term we wish others to use when referring to gun owners – it is not productive to use it amongst ourselves.

          • MrEllis

            1. Having an “open mind” doesn’t mean there are two sides to everything,sometimes a person is just wrong. Some people deserve scorn for public behaviors not some sort of kid glove approach. I’m never going to say, “You know what Mr. Neo-Nazi I don’t agree with your ideal white people are a superior race and we should kill the lesser races, but I’ll respect your opinion to think so.”

            If someone is alluding to a giant scheme, only they are aware of, involving millions of people trying to take their guns so they can control us… well I’m not the one making gun owners look bad in this instance. Now during the swimsuit part of the competition I’m the one making gun owners look bad.

            2. I own guns and if I start ranting about vaccines turning people into Muslims you can call me a nut. Crazy people own guns too and it’s entirely acceptable to call them out for their BS. I think if we nipped more of the talk of sedition, conspiracy and sometimes outright treason in the bud people as a whole would be more comfortable and accepting of firearms.

            Because I know I don’t want my spokesperson to be the guy who thinks Muslim Socialist Fascist Robot Reptilian Atheist Overlords are out to give us HIV so we will all die from the fluoride in the water and they can scoop our guns up and tape them together then shoot us from their moon base and blow away America and All of our Freedoms. But guess who the media and people who don’t own guns will quote when something happens?

          • grunion

            Go take your meds or something. You do not come off as an intellectual no matter how hard you try. Your posts contain no wisdom, only hashed and re-hashed BS that applies to the theater in your mind only.

          • MrEllis

            Settle down, internet warrior, it’s already over.

          • grunion

            You know nothing about my sacrifices for my country. “Internet Warrior”….cute. You are clearly a lonely, sad, little man.

          • MrEllis

            I’m actually married and happy. I see some projection, internet warrior.

          • grunion

            How can anyone in their right mind feel secure today? Seriously, sometimes it looks like trouble at every point on the compass. Any preservation of world view opportunities flew out the window years ago. The liberals seem to prefer a scrambled egg to a free people. Liberals have pretty much ruined the U.S. I say it because it is true.

          • MrEllis

            You’re not good at this, try less hamfist and more wit?

          • grunion

            Better than you. I do not deal in half truths and duplicity as do you. I tell the truth. You should try it sometime.

          • MrEllis

            The truth is you’re so angry and hateful you don’t think. You can’t even see how silly you look flailing away at your keyboard to show how tough you are. I come to this website because usually people exactly like you aren’t there sputtering with rage about their freedoms and lashing out at anyone who doesn’t march lockstep with them. You’re late to the dance, I’ve heard your exact rantings many times over and it’s never the smartest guy in the room, as they say. You’re pretty much sub-par for the course. But thanks for playing!

          • Ethan

            Leave room for the unknown – and don’t create division between gun owners, that’s all I’m getting at. Don’t disparage those who believe differently. 🙂

            United we win, divided we fall. The more differences we try and find between each other, the less effective we are as a team.

          • grunion

            Not sure why but found your post funny as hell.

          • MrEllis

            What if they are unicorns? That’s how absurd it is.

            If that’s food for thought our brains are skinny at least.

          • Mike Price

            You won’t know it until it bites you in the ass and then it’s too late.

          • grunion

            You’re on your own pud. You are incapable of surviving on your own. Your posts make that abundantly evident. By know, I don’t even feel sorry for you. Keeping you out of the gene pool would be “A good thing”.

          • MrEllis

            I was hoping we could breed…

        • anon

          I post as anon because my name is not directly relevant to the discussion at hand, and nobody really needs to know my name for any reason having to do with this article. My ideas stand for themselves irregardless of whether you know my name or not. It literally has no bearing whatsoever on any of the points that i made.

          But since you must know what my name is, it is David M. Wagner of Florida and if you want you can email me directly at davidmwag@gmail.com

          TLDR:
          -reptilian overlords are NOT trying to take your guns
          -the government has tried and failed recently to strip us of 2A, and we are doing great work to stop it
          -lets rejoice on our success, for it is us as a community (sans those of you who bought up all the 855 at walmart and are on my FB news feed selling for $1.00/rd) that stopped this. Good job us
          -lets not get lazy in fighting for our 2A rights. This is how they will get us when (not if) they try it again
          -MOST IMPORTANTLY: remember to welcome newcomers into this hobby. More gun owners=more opposition to anti gunners

          And now… back to firearms, not politics….

          • Ethan

            A mission we can all agree with. 🙂

          • grunion

            And the chickens can all go back to their coop to roost. Tough guys are so funny!!!

      • Christopher

        “There are no reptilian overlords plotting against our gun rights in a closed room where they keep obamas birth certificate.”

        You sir have not met my boss! I don’t know if he plotting to take away my guns or if he has Obama’s birth certificate but I am sure he is reptilian and considers himself to be overlord of the office

        • itsmefool

          Then it’s time to be your own boss!

      • Thomas Gomez

        Excellent response Sir.

        • anon

          thanks <3

      • Ethan

        “There is no conspiracy. There are no reptilian overlords plotting against our gun rights in a closed room where they keep Obamas birth certificate.”

        With all due respect sir, the fact that you are 23 indicates you are generally unqualified to speculate on that topic. Otherwise I agree with your post quite enthusiastically. We are winning so long as we choose to keep fighting.

        (I’m only 29, so don’t hear me going all grumpy-‘nam-vet on you, I’m just saying – keep an open mind towards the unknown. 😉 )

        • anon

          I agree that there is always something to be learned, and that before we can know anything we must question everything…

          That being said, even without knowing 100% in the literal sense, I’m 100% sure in the figurative sense that the reptilian overlords aren’t secretly holding obamas birth certificate in the “center to ban all guns” room.

          >inb4 “thats just what a reptilian overlord would say”

          • Ethan

            Lol! I quite agree. I just don’t think its an issue worth dividing us over. We are a big tent with room for all.

        • Bill

          i’m in my mid 50’s and never met the reptilian overlords. I saw the AWB sunset, the Heller decision, the easing of CCW regs nationwide, suppressors are all over the market, the AR become more common than the 10/22; in short, it’s never been this good in my experience.

          • grunion

            Still, I notice an awful lot of water rushing out of the bay. Hope it does not foretell an imminent, crushing tsunami…

          • T Sheehan

            Stop it, Bill. You’re crushing my conspiracy theories with facts, and not hyperbole. That’s frowned upon in these here parts!

        • dan citizen

          I’m an old geezer, and I’m 65% sure there are no reptilian overlords.

          • Ethan

            I think that pretty accurately describes my veiws as well.

      • Dude

        Great response. Spot on from the new generation.

      • Rusty Shackleford

        I agree, it’s not conspiratorial, just plain ideological indoctrination. The truth of the matter is the American Medical Association, the American Medical Association Litigation Committee, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Practice as well as nearly every state based medical association i.e. Florida Medical Association, etc. all advocate against RKBA and they do so openly, as witness during the FOPA lawsuit and the vivek murthy confirmation.

        • Tucson_Jim

          If such indoctrination can be effectively proven to be based on bad science, illicit use of data, biased politics, or financial influence… then such ideology actually CAN be reversed. But, it isn’t easy… virtually EVERY citizen who goes to a Doctor needs to understand the logic, the Constitution, the politics, and the risks.

          Exercise is good for my health and long-term quality of life… my Doctor would advocate bicycling or swimming… both of which have inherent risks… but, the probability is such that the risk of not getting exercise outweighs the risk of being hit by a car, or drowning.

      • Kurt Akemann

        Superb reply, anon!

      • roguetechie

        I apologize if my post came off as elitist or excluding of the new demographics joining the people of the gun. I am actually an avid proponent of making new shooters welcome and, further, actively working to develop products and solutions that are not necessarily of any interest at all to the mainline people of the gun!

        I am actually putting my time effort resources and faith, possibly risking bankruptcy in these nontraditional demographics!

        Further, while it’s understandable that many people who comment here would want to dismiss some of the content of my post, the insults directed at the content and me personally are much more amusing than bruising…

        All I can do is offer up the insights I have gained, what others do with it is not my business nor do I want it to be.

    • Bill

      I’ll bite, being in the field: whats the DSM-5 have to do with this?

    • Aaron

      As a psychiatrist graduating med school and starting residency this year and an avid life-long shooter who is raising my kids to be shooters as well, I can tell you that the DSM is a minimal part of our medical education before residency. Pretty much the gun values we have going into med school are very similar to those we come out with – I have a lot of classmates who are also shooting folks (this is Colorado, so probably not nationally representative), though for the most part I think doctors tend to be more anti-gun before we get here.

      Additionally, the DSM says nothing about shooting having anything to do with mental illness, apart from recommending that some patients have access to firearms restricted. In general, when I’ve been on rotations, these are the patients we assess for access to firearms include:
      Patients who are actively or chronically suicidal or homicidal
      Patients who cannot discriminate what’s real from what’s not real
      Patients without impulse control who have been violent in the past
      Patients who express a current desire to harm a specific person or group
      Maybe others that I can’t think of right on the fly.

    • grunion

      All DSM’s should be burned for the damage they have done.

  • Awesome! Of course I take full credit due to my video M193 vs that vest. No need to thank me folks, lol.

    • me ohmy

      yeah.. but then the libs will whine about excessive velocity, and penetration

      • Then I will make a video showing how anyone with wheel/fishing weights and some hi-tek can make their own bullets.
        Then if they ban wheel/fishing weights I will show how to get lead from galena.
        Then if they ban primers I will show how to improvise primers.

        When something is banned, does is ever really go away?

        • FightFireJay

          Apparently, “Hi-Tek” is a rapper from Cincinnati named Tony Cottrell. Please give us a little more background on the product you are talking about.

          • Ethan

            Home-cast bullets can be coated in a special coating (Hi-tek) that mimics a copper jacket, or you can just Powder Coat them by shaking them in a Tupperware container to achieve the same effect.

            Basically, anyone with half a brain can make their own bullets and cartridges at home with commonly available materials. Its not nearly as complicated as it used to be.

        • Ethan

          Where the is a will, there is a way.
          Where there is no way, there is an uprising.

          Balance will always be restored as long as the people wish it.

          GOOD JOB TFB!!

        • BattleshipGrey

          The post about the Australian SMG found in a drug raid is a great example as well. The government can ban anything they want (not really but they think so), yet there it is, because someone had the know-how to make it.

        • Y-man

          I give you full permission to use my birdshot into slugs video!

      • MrEllis

        I’m liberal and have done no such thing. There are like 1.2 gajillion websites you can go do this kind of thing on and receive a warm welcome, try those.

        • I work with LE and ex-military who were actually deployed into very violent places and even they don’t quite grasp how firearms work and function beyond basic levels.

          You’re kidding right? I hope you don’t lump me in that group.

          • MrEllis

            Did I say everyone? Are you parsing english in hopes I will somehow slip up, make one mistake and you can write everything off I said? Or are you suggesting these people do not exist? It’s not all personal.

          • nadnerbus

            I have never seen Phil be what you are suggesting (defensive, pedantic, or political). I’d guess it was a legitimate question on his part, as he is former LEO.

            I get that you are tired of the anti-progressive message on a lot of gun websites, but it’s starting to look like you are the one picking the fight.

            Not trying to get involved in any spitting match, just saying how it looks from here.

          • MrEllis

            I’ve never met him, why assume it targeted him? I didn’t even mention him or allude to him. Just saying how it looks from here.

          • grunion

            Man your head is really a mess inside!

          • MrEllis

            To be clear, no, I wasn’t speaking of you, I suppose I took that the worst way possible, I apologize.

        • me ohmy

          you are in the minority and I invite YOU to go there.. I don’t belong.. I am a freethinker. NOT a liberal in the modern sense..

          • MrEllis

            Umm, think you missed the point.

          • grunion

            No we didn’t. Just keep the comb over and perhaps no one else will notice it.

          • me ohmy

            um.. I didn’t care to think what your point actually was.. deal with it..

          • MrEllis

            Ahh, I get it, you can’t grasp the point. My mistake.

          • me ohmy

            actually the image you’re projecting right about now is pile, and cow poop.. figure it out genius

        • grunion

          You first!

      • grunion

        Unconventional sex is the liberal’s favorite subject…..

  • me ohmy

    mostly because they are going to lose their azzes if they TRIED..
    maintain strong vigilance and perseverance against tyrants

  • Joel

    They’re trying to save face after getting everyone P.O.ed. They’ll lick their wounds for a year or so and try to do it again.

    • Bill

      Like they did……when?

  • Not_a_Federal_Agent

    Enjoy this… For now…

  • MrEllis

    The ATF has been saying M855 is not off the table for the good part of a week now. I have seen no enforcement action on it and when I spoke to an ATF agent and an a few other federal agents they didn’t even know this was a thing, period.

    Maybe stop with all the hostile, belligerent and sometimes downright treasons crap talk and explain to people in a reasonable manner what is what? I know it’s hard to hold back sometimes but even this website is putting forth smarmy crap that only serves to enrage the base. It doesn’t change minds or win people over it helps the belligerent people dig in heels and become bolder and louder.

    Do you honestly even think the president understands guns on anything but a rudimentary level? What he blasts some skeet now and then (don’t take VP Cheney!) at the country club?I work with LE and ex-military who were actually deployed into very violent places and even they don’t quite grasp how firearms work and function beyond basic levels.

    Public perception means a lot and you do need to win people over because gun owners are not the majority in America, the NRA can’t be your only voice because it doesn’t speak to reason it speaks with money to The Hill and a large swath of the population is never going to warm to them. What they will respond to is logic and rational discourse. If the only contact they have with guns is some ammosexual stroking his AR in Starbucks daring someone to say something about it so they can rant they are not going to be swayed the way you want them to.

    America has a firmly established gun culture but we also are ruled by law. No matter what the NRA or websites tell you the government knows it can’t realistically remove firearms from the culture and in our lifetime it never will even try. Replying with vitriol and hate at every suggestion of regulation (Why can’t we own nerve gas or atomic weapons?!?) instead of explaining things and using logic is gonna get you less and less because you are making two camps out of the issue when in fact there are many degrees and opinions. But you force there to be two sides and you’ll start to lose things.

    • The tl;dr version: Educate people instead of beating drums? Sure, I think TFB is pretty good at that in general.

      • MrEllis

        They seem to be drifting.

    • MikeF

      There is some sense in what you say, and the fringe cant be allowed to represent the entire firearms community.

      On the other hand, some of us are old enough to remember the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, and how silly it was, and how nonsensical all the gun control proposals and measures in our lifetime have been. This M855 BS was the final straw for me and got me to write a check to the NRA.

      If only 30% of US citizens are Gun owners, 100,000,000 people is a huge minority.

      • MrEllis

        I have guns from it that I carried as a deputy.

        Sure 30% now, but if we continue down the path we’re not in it for growth, we’re in it to appease the base. What happens when there is a supermajority and they change the Constitution? Then what? The law has changed the very document people claim they will kill for is changed. Break the law? become traitors to the nation because it changed around you and you did nothing but dig your heels in?

        • noguncontrol

          the American Revolution won, with just 3% of the population participating. the homos are just 2-4% of the population, but look at how powerful they have become, and look how rabid, loud , deceptive and offensive they are. Jihadists are a small minority and they are just as powerful as the homos, and look how rabid and offensive they are. they are as loud, obnoxious and deceptive as the homos.

          • MrEllis

            Aren’t you just a sweet little thing?

  • Ko I

    They’re probably evaluating the comments saying that virtually any centerfire rifle round is going to go through the standard police body armor and finding a way to use that as justification to ban all centerfire rifle ammunition.

    • MrEllis

      They’ve known that for decades, hence the desire to classify and standardize body armor rating levels. Do you honestly believe every single person at the ATF is not aware a rifle bullet will penetrate soft body armor? Some of them wear it every day.

      • Ko I

        It’ll probably be phrased something like, “Since you all know these rounds will defeat our armor, we don’t think we can trust you with these rounds.”
        Besides, my comment was just a general “the ATF wants any and all excuses to violate rights and/or shoot people” comment. 😉

        • MrEllis

          The ATF is not going to ban centerfire rifle rounds or even .223/5.56. Come on, let’s be a bit pragmatic about this. Realism is not weakness nor is it letting your guard down. The ATF only has about 5k total employees so it’s not like they can be everywhere at once, that being said 5k employees is enough to screw up copy edit.

          When I was a deputy in Texas they actually revised the penal code and when they did they forgot to add the LE exemption to carrying a gun everywhere (but jails/prisons). That one sentence made it illegal for every cop in Texas to carry. Do I think that was intent? Was the GOP controlled House in Texas trying to disarm the police, no, that’s absurd. This isn’t the same thing here, people have spoke to it, but I believe they were ignorant on specifics. Overall I know any large organization, be it private or public, will do stupid crap and now the internet compounds that. The thing is the ATF is a bureaucracy, it is not nimble enough to adjust and react, so one week of the internet going off seems like forever but in reality these are 9-5 guys who come in monday through friday and don’t read this stuff. They move at the speed of red tape.

  • echelon

    What I especially love is that every time I, or someone like me, proposes joining en masse and calling for the repeal of other restrictions like the GCA and NFA, we get laughed and mocked…

    Then something as simple and ridiculous as the M855 ban gets people all foamy at the mouth and they actually join en masse and publicly raise a stink about it, then the .gov seemingly backs off. (Though I’m not singing victory songs by any means)

    Nah, who am kidding…I gotta $200 tax stamp to pay for…sigh…

    • noguncontrol

      keep it up, dont get discouraged, pray for it , nothing is impossible with God.

  • Hensley Beuron Garlington

    If only we could of saved 7N6 ammo as well! 🙁

    Fighting and roaring hard over this crap is the only way to make our voices heard. It takes real effort. Calling the phones of politicans and the ATF, signing petitions, giving money to NRA and NAGR, mailing and emailing the politicans and the ATF and educating the public.

    • MrEllis

      Try education and discourse. Not everyone is swayed by fighting and roaring. It’s a long run thing, not a short term thing. The ATF didn’t even notice all the roaring and fighting until it was over.

      • Hensley Beuron Garlington

        True. I should of led my statement with educating the public instead of ending with that. LOL.
        I just get so amped up when the alphabet soup starts messing with us.

        • MrEllis

          It’s all good. I grew up on military bases and I’ve worked for the government, I think most of the laws and regulations people purpose are with good intent, for the most part, but made without all the facts. I doubt the ATF wants to add more and more regulation because that means more and more paperwork for them. Most people don’t like change that causes them more work, because at the end of the day these monolithic agencies are staffed by chumps like you and I not aliens from another world. Believe it or not, most of the guys I’ve met who are agents (a small sample by any measure) were pretty much just like cops. They were mostly conservative, mostly pro-gun and mostly just doing their job.

          • nadnerbus

            Respectfully, I think you underestimate how politicized agencies can get at the top. I doubt any rank and file BATFE agents had much to do with this.

            I don’t like getting more work put on me by by my bosses, but it happens all the time, for various reasons, the ego or agenda of the guys at the top sometimes among them.

          • MrEllis

            Let’s look at the head of the ATF then and see what he has done before we allude to some grand conspiracy of the government getting us?

          • mosinman

            The problem is even though they’re “just doing thier jobs” they’re still infringing on the 2nd amendment

          • MrEllis

            Sure, so we should all have tanks and mortars and fission bombs? Some people interpret the 2nd amendment differently, just like ever single amendment asides from it. The Constitution doesn’t exist to provide you an excuse to have a grenade launcher, there are a few more parts to it than that and all of them are regulated in different ways. Try saying the “seven dirty words” on the radio and see if the fines don’t rack up. There is a better way to argue this than petulance is what I’m suggesting.

            Most of the government law enforcement types I have met are not anti-gun by any measure of the phrase. Not all just most I have met, which is hundreds over the years. So still a small sample.

          • mosinman

            Why shouldn’t someone own a tank if you can afford it? In fact people do. I do believe the fission bomb has no place like other WMDs. And how doesn’t it allow for that? I don’t see it exempting grenade launchers. The 2A exists to defend the country and defend from the government as well. People after all owned assault weapons just like government troops on those times and cannons were common too not to mention there were even privately owned armed ships employed by the government. The point I was making was that regardless of the officers personal beliefs at the end of the day he has to enforce all the laws including the ones that infringe on rights like in Cali or NY so the net effect is the same

          • MrEllis

            My point is not everyone agrees with people owning anything they want. People don’t even agree on how the 2nd Amendment is defined.

            Also I think it’s a horrible idea for people to have military grade weapons, and if you’re allowed one why not all? Even you have limits other people just have different limits.

          • mosinman

            Why? The militias did during and after the revolution. A lot of our AR-15s are built to a military standard or even above. They’re just lacking a few components to bring them to “military grade” and for sure nobody will agree no matter what. I know I wouldn’t be afraid if a guy had a M48 patton and a full auto M4 with a M203.

          • MrEllis

            It’s a fantasy to think you could do anything but minor harm to any real military unit with a longarm. These guns don’t keep the military at bay, and no you can’t construct a single argument (asides from something is fun to shoot) that makes me think all weapons should be viable for all people.

          • mosinman

            it’s hardly fantasy as guerrilla warfare has proven itself to be a viable tactic. and I’m doubtful that the military nor the government will want to deal with millions of armed and angry civilians. and in fact that I’m doubtful many service members would actually want to turn their own weapons on their own people . and besides the fact that they’re fun to shoot , it is our basic freedom under the Second Amendment (it says “arms” not muskets or swords) not to mention that it also serves as an extra layer of national defense and protection from an over reaching government.course you’re going to have your own opinion on this but I do feel it is our constitutional and patriotic duty to protect our country and people from threats both foreign and domestic and allowing for the people to responsibly equip themselves in a better matter will further both goals

          • MrEllis

            So if the military won’t fight it’s own people we fear Canada? Yeah, I’m not going to be swayed the citizens of this fine country 1. Need military grade weapons (including bio/chem/nuke because as you say not just swords and muskets). 2. I don’t even trust them with candles.

          • mosinman

            You never know, I do have a feeling that a portion wouldn’t at the moment. This of course could change over time. And to feel that we’re immune to invasion is kind of naive. ( obviously Canada isn’t much of a concern, but the Chinese military continues to gain power and our relationship with Russia is poor) I of course am talking about conventional weapons. I feel WMDs don’t even belong in the hands of governments.

          • mosinman

            why, are you afraid of military grade weapons in the hands of the people? and no nobody will agree on anything I personally know that I wouldn’t be afraid of people owning machine guns as there’s not much difference difference between them and semi auto rifles not to mention the latter are more controllable and accurate anyways. in fact many people own military surplus aircraft or tanks and I feel that they can be responsible on with the right checks in place kind of like how we go through a background check to get rifles and such currently and we also register our vehicles as well anyways

          • MrEllis

            Have you met people? Or are these just the people you know? These jackholes can’t even DRIVE.

          • mosinman

            of course I’ve met people, some smart some dumb but why does adding a fancy government title or uniform or badge make them more competent than the regular civilian?

          • MrEllis

            Ahh that’s what they are for, ok then. Later.

          • mosinman

            I mean , you seem to be ok with the government/police/military with having powerful weapons yet you’re against a private citizen having a machine gun or milsurp tank/APC despite the fact that there are geniuses and morons filing the ranks of all of these groups, not to mention the morality of these people vary just like the populace they draw from (with the exception that increasing power corrupts people) Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but that’s the conclusion I’ve come to so far.

    • Weaver

      Why not start trying to get the ATF to reverse that decision.

      • Hensley Beuron Garlington

        Have been. Also trying to get the entire National Firearms Act removed! Anyone else here send money to either of the two cases attempting to over turn the NFA?
        I think we’ve done enough of this responding and being on the defensive and we need to be offensive in respect to the second amendment as well. We need to repeal all gun laws. Every a last one. The only good laws for firearms are geared towards the manufacturing of safe and reliable weapons, like consumer protection laws. Not just banning weapons because they are fully automatic or too short or too suppressed.

        I also believe ex-cons should be allowed to own firearms. If they haven’t served enough time to be reinstated as full citizens with all rights restored, then they either need to serve more time or be put to death. Jail is to protect the public and rehabilitate offenders. If that’s not happening, which it isn’t, then we need much harsher sentences.

  • Josh

    Best news I’ve heard all day.

  • toms

    Its a miracle! Hell Hath Freezeth Over

  • ColaBox

    Best interests my ass, im pretty sure somewhere in the ATF one of them just now realized, “Wait…I think these 80,000 people are mad at us…”. Oh who am I kidding what do they care.

    • MrEllis

      I doubt anyone at the ATF spends much time reading internet comment sections. That’s the NSA you’re thinking of. I kid, I kid, don’t audit me!

  • King

    I remember seeing someone proposing that there was probably a lot of surplus M855 due to military’s switch over to M855A1, and that a “scare” might be a good way to unload some of that surplus.

    …and regardless of the intentions of the ATF’s proposal, the affects to this end are undeniable.

    The idea is very literally a conspiracy theory, and I have no technical knowledge in this field, but it was provocative. Especially considering an administrative system which, at this point, would have to be catatonic to not be aware of how the market reacts to it’s proposed legislation.

  • sam

    Woo, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave! Good job everyone in the pro-firearm community. May the Wings of Liberty never lose a feather.

  • Panfried

    And this is how the Sig brace incident should have been handled (or could even still be handled if we don’t keep stepping on our shoelaces about it). While these government agencies are definitely NOT your friend (time and again they have proven they will not hesitate to screw you.) , they are NOT your enemy. They are people just like you and me, not machines, or reptiles, or heartless zombies who breath in and out for the purpose of taking your precious little AR-15s away. And frankly the way this particular was handled was done so in what amounts to the best way possible. (granted we should not rest easy over it as the BATF has been known to change their minds) If you treat someone civilly, they just might do so back to you. All of the letters sent about the brace we’re the equivalent of dancing circles around them taunting “nah-nah, you can’t get me!” What did you expect was going to happen? They would just blush, say “You sure bamboozled me this time, fellas!”, and carry on? A lot of writers made it clear they were not being in good faith of the accessory’s intent, and paid the price for it. And before somebody cries “You’re a jackboot-licking, government-loving, feeble-willed, Pinko Socialist!” maybe you should try thinking before writing instead of not just “poking the bear” but performing the equivalent of bum-rushing said bear head on and then being shocked at the outcome. Believe me, I think a solid portion of NFA laws and the like (and the current ammo controversy) are incredibly stupid and do nothing to solve issues of gun violence, and you SHOULD fight them over it. But be smart about it. Write them, explain your reasoning, and be civil. Stop being your own worst enemy.

    • Don Ward

      “You’re a jackboot-licking, government-loving, feeble-willed, Pinko Socialist!”

      Who is also correct.

    • Cymond

      OTOH, ATF consistently maintains that opinion letters only reply to the specific recipient in the letter, forcing each individual to seek their own letter.

    • grunion

      Thank you for bestowing your wisdom. Is it lonely up there on that pedestal?

      • Panfried

        It is regrettably so. Perhaps I ought get off my high horse and talk about how Obama’s a communist-socialist-muslim-dictator-reptile-gun grabber who is worse than hitler and will stop at nothing to take your beloved right to take your AR-15 at low ready to your local Wendy’s. You know, the reasonable and rational thing to get more people into our hobby.

  • Ben

    No ban at this time? How about no ban ever!

  • Lance

    We still need to be vigilant thought. Thank you TFB for reporting on the
    proposed ban in time to let us have timely response to BATF. Keep calling emailing your Reps and Senators keep the pressure up.

    • Cymond

      Does anyone else think Lance’s comment is eerily similar to Wang’s comment at the top of the page, including misspelling “though”?

  • mosinman

    Now if only we could band together like we did for this ammo and repeal the Hughes amendment of 1986

    • And NFA/34 and GCA/68.

      • noguncontrol

        Amen, Amen, and Amen.

  • Michael R. Zupcak

    See! It does work! When enough people COMPLAIN, that’s more powerful than anything!

    “Doooon’t stop complaaaaiiiining, hold on to that feeeeling”

  • noob

    Every time I see stuff like this, I wonder what it would be like if the BATF tried to reduce the number of cigarettes you could buy at once or put a ban on liquor above a certain percentage of alcohol.

  • Uniform223

    seems to me the ATF is stalling because have sunk and greatly disproved their BS and that they are trying to look for another loop hole so they can legally get away with it.

  • jamezb

    Not as resounding a win as I’d like. And not a win, just a reprieve.
    They as mach as admit it is a delay while they nail down their criteria,
    Simplify and generalize their language, broaden the scope of their plan…
    ……here’s the thing that bugs me most…….
    ……I do not like the term “framework” –
    An example:
    Jacketed? check. (strike one!)
    Closed tip? check. (strike two!)
    Pointy? check. (strike three!)
    OOPS! –three strikes and it’s banned…it fit the framework!

  • Russian Roulette

    Ban the ATF

  • Mike Price

    I think the gun owners sent a strong message alright. Gun owners need to keep pounding them on other issues, such as the suppressor issue. What was the basis for banning suppressors anyway? Even in other countries such as France that are anti gun you can buy a suppressor with out any necessary permit. I now have about 30% hearing loss due to shooting guns when I was a teenager at the river with no sound protection. I never thought about hearing loss. You don’t worry about stuff like that when you are young. You shouldn’t need to go through the red tape to own a suppressor. It would reduce environmental noise and hearing damage. Even with hearing protection my ears still ring with 44 mag handguns and short barrel AR pistols.

  • ASterisk

    Well if we can get them to reverse course (or at least delay) on M855, I wonder if we can get them to do the same on the SB15 arm brace opinion.

  • Phillip Cooper

    Translation:
    We’ll wait for all the hubris to die down, and then if the POTUS hasn’t already done his Executive Action BS, we’ll ban it outright without making the “mistake” of asking for public comment.

    Paranoid? No, I’m not. I’ve been watching government do this sort of thing for years. Why would they follow the rules when it’s so much easier to just do what they want, flouting the law is so much more effective in their eyes.

  • lifetimearearesident

    Keep you guard up. We won this one but as long as Obama or another liberal democrat is in the White House the BATF will act as an enemy to the second amendment.

    Edited to add while I am a capitalist and I believe in market pricing, I hope CTD got caught with a bunch of high cost M855 inventory that they must sell for a loss.

  • dsd1

    the REAL question is with all the Senate and Congress support right now on this topic – why don’t they just get rid of the ATF or seriously cut it back – instead the right wing only reacts and never goes on the offensive from these repeated attacks from the left – that will NEVER end.

  • Madcap_Magician

    I think they deserve a little credit, I honestly was not expecting them to take the public comment period seriously at all. The fact that they changed their plans when it became apparent how much the ban was opposed is a glimmer of hope.

  • Dennis Johnson

    Government gobbledegook …..or a less technical term, weasel words…..

  • dhdoyle

    Tom R.:
    I’m hoping that you’re still watching comments on this article. Please keep watching this issue for later developments. The decision may not be the big win that everybody is congratulating themselves over. Here’s the rest of the story:

    As somebody on another web site shared, the BATFE apparently modified this section of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR Title 27) in 2014 and deleted the paragraph containing the exemption for M855 and SS-109. The first problem is that the exemption is still gone. The second problem is that the BATFE made a material change in 27 CFR without allowing a public comment period. This is a serious procedural violation.

    The BATFE is splitting hairs on this decision. They say that removing the exemption for M855/SS-109 from the armor penetrating ban is not the same as banning the sale of these articles. I would respectfully disagree. This stuff is still classified as armor penetrating ammunition without an exemption.

    • Doc Rader

      Yep, still following. I saw the same thing, and the scuttlebutt on that was that BATFE was going to have the correction published in the PDF version of the document and posted on their website (FWIW), since they had already printed the hard copies (I think I am recalling that correctly).

  • Squirreltakular

    Definitely good articles, and they make the case for ditching green tip and other 5.56 well. However, the answer to the question of, “Is this a good round for a civilian shooter?” Is still “yes”.

    I’ll put it this way; I want my mags full of whatever is standard issue to the military. I’ll leave it at that.