Breaking News:BATFE Proposing To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo (M855)

1

This is apparently the year of reclassification and reversals from the BATFE.  Previously allowed “green tips” are going to be banned as “armor piercing” by eliminating it’s exemption:
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

It appears as if the move is related to the “AR Pistol” variants as the language they are referencing is from the 1986 law:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended
for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The issue is that regular ball M855 is not “entirely” made of the listed materials–it is a steel tip over a lead core, so I think they are going after the angle of the steel tip weighing more than 25 percent of the entire round.  I believe the M855A1 jacket is about 33 percent of the weight, and the M855 Lead Free variant is a tungsten core.  I don’t know the weight breakdown of the regular ball, though.

The BATFE had previously granted an exception to the M855  (since they had declared it as armor piercing) for use under “sporting” purposes and it looks like they are going to remove this.

The BATFE is accepting comments until March 16th regarding this. Now lets be clear this is about a change in the law not politics. Now where did I put my phonebook?

You can read the release from the NRA-ILA site:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo



Tom is a former Navy Corpsman that spent some time bumbling around the deserts of Iraq with a Marine Recon unit, kicking in tent flaps and harassing sheep. Prior to that he was a paramedic somewhere in DFW, also doing some Executive Protection work between shifts. Now that those exciting days are behind him, he has embraced his inner “Warrior Hippie” and assaults 14er in his sandals and beard, or engages in rucking adventure challenges while consuming craft beer. To fund these adventures, he writes medical software and builds websites and mobile apps. His latest venture is as one of the founders of IronSights.com; a search engine for all things gun related. He hopes that his posts will help you find solid gear that will survive whatever you can throw at it–he is known (in certain circles) for his curse…ahem, ability…to find the breaking point of anything.


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  • john huscio

    In the words of hank hill: “no god-dang way!”

    • joper

      Why do you let other humans tell you what to do?

  • Norm

    A change of the law, and not politics? Is there a difference these days?

    • When we say no politics here on TFB we mean that we guarantee when you come here, rather than be bombarded with political opinions or propaganda you will get nothing but firearm related information and the best media coverage we can provide. However, what we will do is follow interesting developments in litigation and legal questions that are pertinent to our great pastime.

      • TFB Reader

        Understood, but linking to the NRA-ILA post almost automatically introduces politics into the discussion. TFB’s post was not political, but the NRA-ILA’s post was. What information did the NRA-ILA’s post add to TFB’s?

    • Hopefully—

  • Joshua

    Same thing they did with 7n6.

    • whskee

      Yes, but that was accomplished _without_ any public comment because that order rolled down to the ATF as a sanction action. Much like the prior ban on imports of firearms from China, which has never been lifted and likely never will.

      • Bill

        Read the ENTIRE rule and look for a sunset clause…..then look at the regulation history, located at the very end, and study the revisions. They generally show the direction that any regulation, code or statute is going to go. Even without a sunset clause, if there hasn’t been significant revisions or actions taken on the law, it’s the perfect time to revisit it, or it means it’s essentially dead.

        My state still has statutes governing trackless trolleys and servicing mares in view of the public. Hard to believe, but you don’t see those get written up a lot. Its just too much hassle to revoke them, though that happens every session.

  • This is getting really annoying ATF. Please leave us alone for a while.

    • BattleshipGrey

      As in FOREVER

    • Ko I

      I guess, now they have a director, they’re being directed into making choices.

    • Ethan

      They are doing this for a reason. Reposted from AKFILES:

      1)When NATO adopted 5.56, they didn’t just agree on a cartridge, like they did with 7.62. They all agreed on a BULLET and load as well, that being the SS109 bullet(known here as M855). Now what ammunition is usually the least expensive here? Military surplus, of course. NATO nations are starting to adopt new 5.56 loads, the US included. Which means that all of that M855(and equivalent) ammunition is about to become surplus, some of it already has. The punch line is this:If they ban M855, they have literally kept BILLIONS of rounds out of the US, and more or less completely killed the surplus market for 5.56mm, since almost all foreign military 5.56 is M855 or equivalent. That’s big win #1.

      2)I’ve been saying for years that the biggest ammo acquisition the feds could make would be to obtain the M855 ammunition being phased out by the Armed Forces. The amount of ammo involved here would make all those new DHS ammo orders looks small in comparison. Ironically enough, no one seems to be watching this issue, but I digress. Obviously, thanks to the Klintonistas, surplus US military ammo is not sold here to civilians. So that was never on the table to begin with. Surplus US military ammo is dis-assembled and the components sold. These are often purchased by ammo manufacturers, re-assembled and sold. Also, the M855 production contract was HUGE. When the Army changed to M855A1, there was still a shitload of M855 to be delivered. Since Uncle Sam didn’t want it, it has been re-packaged and sold commercially(which they could do since the military never took possession of it). That’s why we’ve had LC stamped M855 at Wal-Mart the last few years. I said all of that to say this:If they ban M855, then the federal agencies will be the SOLE outlet for all of that ammo. SO they will be able to quietly obtain another HUGE amount of ammo, but without all of the press of their earlier orders. That’s big win #2.

      3)If the first 2 weren’t enough, there is another reason. M855 and equivalents make up a good sized portion of the 5.56 ammunition available to us now. So if it goes away, the available ammunition in 5.56 is greatly reduced. At the same time, because ARs have effectively become like 10/22s in that they are almost universally available. So now we have them manipulating that supply and demand thing to work against us. Which means:the cost of ALL 5.56 ammunition will go up drastically, and it will be much less available. So all of those brand new AR15s will be much harder to feed. That’s big win #3.

      -MACE2364 from AKFILES

      • nadnerbus

        All that may be so, but if they are solely banning M855 type ammo, that still means the newer rounds will be legal to own (when manufactured for civilian purchase, not as surplus). So all things being equal, this should just be a supply shock, while manufacturers retool for other bullet types. Spool up on XM193, 62 grain weight bullets without the steel core, 77 grain, the new “ecco” bullets, whatever.

        Prices will surely go up and availability down, but it should not be too long term as the makers switch over.

        It’s all retarded of course, since 62 grain M855 is arguably the least effective round in a straight lethality sense.

        Still, hopefully not the end of the world, though it could definitely be a sign of things to come.

        • BattleshipGrey

          Sure, the industry would just start selling a different type of projectile. But the issue is that they want to ban a common round that many people use just because it could be loaded into an AR pistol and defeat soft body armor. Even though any common rifle round will do the same thing. Since the logic doesn’t make sense, we need to look into the motives that Ethan is discussing.

          They want control. Since they can’t have it in the legislature, they’ll manipulate the markets to make things more difficult for us.

        • Bill

          Stop it, you’re making sense. And what are the odds that the ammo makers haven’t already started planning that, with the military drawdown from two wars reducing demand for mil-spec rounds, that are more expensive to manufacture anyway?

          Gun people have raised panicking to an art form.

          • guest123

            And rightfully so. Time after time the government here to protect our freedom continues to muck with it for more control. Even when it makes no sense.

          • Sickshooter0

            Panicking is one thing; the incremental process of eliminating ammo options by a bureaucracy with no oversight (now the green tip, the recent ban on 7N6), where does it stop? The answer is; it doesn’t.

          • RJ

            “Gun people” have 40 years of experience with “Gun grabbers” making every sniveling little excuse they can to take away guns or the ability to shoot them. It is far, far to late in the game to claim that attacks on ammunition are harmless…seeing as how “gun grabbers” have been espousing exactly that for the past 40 years.

            It’s not going to happen, Gun rights are a bipartisan issue now, just try and line up Democrat support for a gun bill.

        • M40

          What’s really Orwellian here is the ATF attempting to ban anything that isn’t for “sporting” use. This is yet another attempt to redefine the second amendment as protecting sports. No matter how many court cases say otherwise, the left still lives under the delusion that the forefathers were protecting hunters.

          • Bill

            Are they banning Gold Dot? Are they banning any ammo with names like critical defense? 5.56 ball, JSP, or jHP? .308 BT Match? .50 BMG API? “Tactical” buck or slugs?

          • M40

            Not yet… but this could set a very dangerous precedent.

          • Bill

            It could. Or it could not. “It could” is the same logic antis use: “we have to ban (fill in the blank) because it could be used to slaughter schoolchildren”

            Seriously, with the state of firearms legislation today versus 30 years ago; the AWB, next to no ccw provisions, mag cap limits, pre-Heller, and people are soiling themselves because of the potential loss of one type of cheap surplus ammo mainly used for plinking?

          • M40

            Language matters, particularly when it comes to legal matters and cases.

            Let’s suppose the FCC tried to ban news programs from criticizing the government because it didn’t meet their standards of “educational exchange of information”. The first amendment wasn’t created to ensure “educational exchange of information”, nor was its intent to stifle criticism… in fact its intent was the opposite.

            By redefining the terms and purpose of the first amendment, they would essentially quell freedom of the press. Likewise, by redefining the terms and purpose of the second amendment, the BATFE could negate what the second amendment actually means.

            Liberals have been trying to twist language and manipulate the original intent of the constitution for over a hundred years. They are ignoring the first amendment, going after the second amendment, actively attempting to shred the fourth and fifth amendments, and taking a giant dump on the ninth and tenth amendments. They now thoroughly abuse the “commerce clause” to control FAR more than the framers ever intended of the federal government.

            Exactly how long, and to what extent will you defend these actions? At what point do you cry, “ENOUGH”? When does the burden of a rifle and pack become lighter than the chains of slavery? Just asking.

          • BR549

            The braindead left is also steadfast in it’s belief that the removing guns from the population will bring peace and somehow take evil toys away from evil people. Along that line, where is the discussion about how a dysfunctional society run by power and wealth hoarding bureaucrats manages to disenfranchise so many within its population?

            I’ve included here a photo from an article on statism; a perfect example of the blind starry-eyed loyalty that the socialist mafia demands from its braindead moonbat followers who, no doubt, are STILL waiting for Hope and Change.

          • M40

            The left has long suffered under the delusion that a government should control the people, and not the other way around.

            The “starry-eyed” proponents of a statist system are typically young, and have yet to earn a fruitful place in life and society. They suffer under the socialist proposition of an “easy path”, where they should not be required to work. They believe that a government’s role is to STEAL from those who work hard in order to “redistribute” the fruits of labor to those who never will.

            Stealing the fruits of one’s labor is the same as forcing someone to work for nothing. Therefore, the left’s ideal is in fact a state sponsored system of SLAVERY. They see the middle class as nothing more than worker drones… and a source of plunder.

            There are thus TWO kinds of liberals. The first group is comprised of those who will always vote for the “free” (plundered) fruit. The second group is comprised of those who believe themselves smarter and better than everyone else. These “limousine liberals” seek POWER above all else, and want to be the ultimate arbiters of the plundered fruit.

          • BR549

            Or put another way, those people who seek positions of power and control only do so because they lack the ability to actually “create” anything, really. Instead, they spend a lifetime in trying to convince Eskimos why it is necessary for politicians to belabor the proper naming for different types of snow, and get paid for their trouble in the process.

            Politicians, completely lack the ability to extract energy from the Universe so they line up at two places where they can feed laterally on an unsuspecting population; …. in front of a camera and the voting booth.

  • Wetcoaster

    As a Canadian, I sure hope not. If it succeeds (hell, even if it fails but gains a lot of attention and traction), chances are good the RCMP tries to pull the same thing here.

    Even when the political climate is good for us, the bureaucratic attitude is not. We basically need to keep the poltical climate favourable for long enough to see a changing of the guard in the senior staff of the RCMP before we can consider any of our gains in rights to be consolidated and not actively contested

  • Jack Straw

    Prepare thy neckbeard!

  • Bill

    Reading these kinds of rules and legislation and statutes make me think Im from a different planet, where we speak English and say what we mean.

    So, when does the run on ammo begin, or did I miss the starting gun already? Maybe now I can get some .22

    • It’s already started—-I checked Brownells earlier today.

    • evlgreg

      You missed it. Last week it was $169 for an ammo can with 420 rounds of XM855A1, Today (Feb 17) all online sources are out of stock and gunbroker has it selling for just over the $400 mark for the same can.

      • Bill

        Yeah, I got the cancellation notice from Brownell’s yesterday.

        • evlgreg

          I got some this morning from a local dealer who had a pallet of the 420 round federal cans. They were closed Sunday and Monday, so I figured it would be an untapped source. They sold 20+ cans the first hour today, so I’m guessing they are out as well.

  • Toms

    This is a big problem we need to push back on this hard. This is the most common ammo in the USA. Put your comments in, if anything else it will slow down the process, as they have to address each one, until another administration.

  • Reader

    Write your congressman/congresswoman. Enough of a poopstorm from their constituents will get this noticed, seriously.

  • BattleshipGrey

    And thus the gap between the people and the government grows wider. Innovation and manufacturing has so blurred the lines between pistol and rifle that it’s time to scrap ’86 MG and ’68 NFA Acts.

    • TFB Reader

      As long as laws are being scrapped, let’s include the ’34 NFA.

      • BattleshipGrey

        Yes that too.

      • MANG

        But that’s fantasy in the short term. Is there any realistic path to stop this change?

        • BattleshipGrey

          Probably attack the “sporting use” language like Jeff suggested. That’s probably the most practical start.

        • toms

          Jam em up with millions of letters (paper). that basically kiboshed the 41P trust change. They have to comment on each one and it takes months if not years. Also write your congressmen. We can’t let this go down. It will significantly increase ammo costs at a minimum, nevermind the fact that almost all rifle ammo is capable of penetrating a standard police vest. Combine it with a lead ban and were in real trouble. Instead of buying case write some letters, its really the only recourse we have.

      • totenglocke

        While we’re at it, lets scrap the IRS, DHS, and ATF. Oh, and the goddamn TSA too.

        • noguncontrol

          and scrap the dept of education and the epa too.

          • TBW

            100 Up Votes to you too!

        • TBW

          100 Up Votes to you!

    • spencer60

      We should focus on repealing the ’86 laws first. They have added the biggest burden, and are the worst written and least defensible.

    • Ko I

      Agreed, and that’s assuming the distinctions made sense even at those times.

  • Lance

    Think Obama has more of a hand in this.

    • Dan

      As much as I don’t care for Mr. Obama I don’t think either of his two brain cells know what M855 is. This is pure ATF making the waves

      • Cedar_92

        No doubt he’d love to sign that dang thing into law though.

        • Kurt Akemann

          Actually, the beauty of this ruling for President Obama is that he doesn’t have to sign it, he just has to let it happen. Doesn’t mean he has to be let off the hook, though: Congress should pass a law clarifying the term “armor-piercing” and thereby block this move by the ATF. It can be sold as an environmental measure and legal update, by allowing ammo that isn’t really armor-piercing but is banned as such currently to be manufactured as an alternative to lead ammo. Obama might even sign such a law and it would fix a serious regulatory problem.

          • Bingo. Congress needs to update the law to focus on energy rather than caliber. The problem here is that these are not true “handgun calibers”, and the law includes them by accident.

          • Rob in Katy

            They can’t do anything without King Barry.

          • Kurt Akemann

            But that wouldn’t be a barrier in the scenario I’m laying out. The focus would be moved to actual armor-piercing power and away from a round being made of specific metals. It would be sold to Obama as an environmental measure, since it would reduce the amount of lead ammo being fired.

          • Bill

            Really? A lame duck President facing a majority of the opposing party in Congress can pull the strings behind the scene?

            Sorry, that dog don’t hunt.

    • Bill

      There was ice on my drive this morning…….hmmm

    • TangledThorns

      More like Bloomberg.

    • toms

      I’m sure it is in someway connected with his vehement hatred of firearms. Even if he doesn’t know a 22 from a .410 he surrounds himself with yes men willing to do anything for an agenda. Something of this level is definitely coming directly from the justice department need I say more?

      • Bill

        No, the odds of him or his people having anything to do with it are zero to none. It was done by a couple guys at ATF who started thinking about the AR pistol/SBR conundrum and looking really closely at the regulations.

        Obama/Bloomberg et al had no more to do with this than the mayor of your city has to do with determining the dimensions of the sewer pipe the sanitation department installs.

        • the ammo addict

          No, BATFE didn’t look closely at the regulations at all. M855 does NOT meet the definition of armor piercing that is spelled out in the law and they know it…and their previous writings PROVE that they know it. BATFE is reaching and someone is pushing them to make that reach – probably Eric Holder or someone close to him.

  • PinkGlock

    That looks totally Photoshopped. Are you even trying?!

  • Joe

    Could you put the link in the article that directs viewers to add theirs comments to the BATFE?

  • That was totally uncalled for.

  • Patrick Mingle

    ugh, well I better get shooting then. Wouldn’t want to make myself a felon

    • Jeff

      Ownership and purchasing isn’t felonious, it’s selling and manufacturing. So it large manufacturers and people with reloading supplies that might want to be careful.

  • Patrick Mingle

    What harm does having green tip on the market do?

    • David Sharpe

      Good question.

      But the ATF won’t be able to answer it.

    • sauerquint

      What harm does banning it do? You can still feed your firearm. It sucks, but the Atf really hates the armor piercing stuff for pistols. And with so many people going out of their way to get ‘pistols’ in rifle calibers it’s kind of obvious to me what their response is going to be.

      • MANG

        Both of you have good points…

      • Weaver

        For one it isn’t an AP round and second it isn’t a pistol round even though fire arm owners use it in ar pistols. They banned 7N6 and now they are trying to ban M855, after that what’s next? We all need to stand together whether we use this round or not. Besides I for one am tired of our governments over reaching.

      • sianmink

        What harm? It’s destroying the largest supply of affordable 5.56 ammunition for made-up reasons. It will have a huge impact on ammunition supply for the most popular rifle in the country, driving up prices and making it hard to even get ammunition. Remember what happened to the ammo situation after Sandyhook? It’s going to happen all over again. And for what? M955 isn’t even that great a round, and doesn’t do anything that other commercial 5.56 rounds can’t.
        5.56 is not a pistol round. It was not designed as a pistol round, it was never intended as a pistol round. AR ‘pistols’ only exist because of arbitrary NFA rules that decided a 10″ barrel AR15 is more dangerous somehow than a 16″ barrel AR15.

    • toms

      Nothing! anything 855 goes through 193 will go through too especially out of a pistol barrel. You need serious plates to defeat either. Its nothing more than a jab to the nose of firearm owners straight from the justice department. I doubt ATF would go this far without some encouragement from above.

      • Rusty Shackleford

        The funny thing is that when it comes to 3/8″ AR500 plate armor, the M855 “green tip” doesn’t even come close to penetrating it yet the M193 goes right through it.

        • Chase Buchanan

          Wait, a minute, how could that possibly be true?

          • RealitiCzech

            Because velocity is the main factor in punching through armor, and M193 has more of it – if you’re close enough (tests where 5.56 punches through the AR500 armor tend to be 25 yards and closer).
            Besides, M855 is barely AP. It’s M995 that is truly AP – what with tungsten and so forth. The 855 just has a bit of steel to punch through obsolete helmets at 600m.

        • Dale Gribble

          That is completely untrue.

        • Rusty I’ve shot both at AR500 steel and neither one penetrated.

  • Jeff

    I think its time to challenge the “sporting use” provisions of law that allow them to ban things not deemed of sporting use. Now that the courts recognize the 2nd amendments implicitly applies to self defense then the “sporting use” provision are unconstitutional when they prohibit self defensive use.

    • Tom Currie

      If we believe the Supreme Court decision in Miller, then M855 is EXACTLY what the 2nd Amendment is all about.

      • Ko I

        I don’t like relying on Miller. There was only one side of the case presented.

    • supergun

      The 2nd Amendment is quite clear already. It is simple and sweet. Only the dumb a$$e$ try to make it what it is not. That Shall Not Infringe. A 5th grader understands that, but a harvard lawyer becomes a dumb a$$.

    • Ethan

      THIS ^^^

    • The Carden Chronicles

      Here is the problem– there is a large group of people out there that have realized that they are going to lose arguments on banning guns- they see “Heller” & “McDonald” and realize they are going to lose most gun possession arguments and cases. HOWEVER, this group has a theory- the Second Amendment says nothing about ammo (this is THEIR theory- not mine). SO, instead of going after the guns, go after the ammo. First step, start banning lead. Now we have a phrase in the “Framework” that BATFE is proposing that says “MAY be used in a pistol.” Anymore that can mean whatever the ATF wants it to mean- all they have to do is show ONE instance of someone at sometime chambering a pistol for a round and now it “MAY be used.” The key is the word “may.” And if you look at the list of “materials” they site- many of those are used in so-called “green” ammo. Ammo is hard enough to get ahold of, and now the ATF is making it worse.

      One other thing— The author said “this is about a change in the law not politics.” I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE! ATF does NOT make law. Only CONGRESS makes law (despite what the White House thinks). This is a “Framework for Determining” what the ATF THINKS Congress meant by “Sporting Purposes” when Congress passed 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). Therefore this is NOT about the law– this is the BATFE PLAYING PURE POLITICS.

      • John Martin

        Al Gore wrote extensively about the ammo issue in his pre presidential “book”.. “the 2nd amendment guarantees the right to keep and bare arms but has no provision about ammunition for those arms. That being said we ban the possession of ammunition”. This ammo grab philosophy is nothing new.

        • The Carden Chronicles

          Perhaps instead of implying the ammo ban idea was new, I should have said the idea is gaining in popularity with the anti 2nd Ammendment crowd. You are correct of course that it is not a new idea.

    • Mort Leith

      The 2nd Amendment says NOTHING about ‘Sporting’…

  • aweds1

    Between changing their opinion in using a Sig brace as a shoulder stock, the proposed changes to trusts for NFA items in Rule 41P, and now this, it’s pretty apparent that firearms owners run the constant risk of running afoul of the law for no other reason than the DOJ changing the rules on a whim. These are all just ATF opinions but they carry the force of law. As this kind of precedent grows and becomes more normal, how do we know it won’t be extended further?

    • sauerquint

      I see this as an outgrowth of the whole ‘Sig Brace’ stuff that Youtubers brought down on all of us. The ATF has been consistent in saying pistol + rifle ammo is going to be a problem since the 90’s. People just want to dismiss the law and then whine like victims. It’s like a speeder getting busted and whining about about speed limit laws.

      This issue isn’t that complicated, we have to comply with certain rules and we will be left alone. Break them and we won’t be.

      • DZ

        It wasn’t “youtubers” that brought this down on us, just people exercising the freedom they had to use what ever however they wanted to use it. Quit trying to find someone to blame for your woes and do something productive. We are all in this boat together.

      • UnpluggedAndAwake

        “we have to comply with certain rules and we will be left alone.”

        Now where have I heard that before??? Oh yeah, every subjugated and oppressed population ever, just before the final boot kick to the head…

        • Shallnot B. Infringed

          No sh!t, what a boot licker.

        • Dan

          Kinda like if I just wear this star of David like I’m supposed to the Nazis will leave me alone.

        • Panfried

          I don’t think you’re seeing the point here. I’ve seen posts much like sauer’s and yours about the sig brace thing and now this. While we shouldn’t take such infractions lying down, there’s no need to parade around on youtube or the public forum or sending letters to the ATF with your metaphorical middle fingers held high like so many have, and then get all pained in the posterior when they flex their muscles. Thinking you’ll win over a government agency by what amounts to taunting them is a recipe for failure. Complying while indirectly fighting a law isn’t boot-licking, subjugating, or resigning. It’s having the common sense to know better than directly challenge a group with WAY more resources and power than you, and they won’t respond well if you act like a d!ck to them.

          • UnpluggedAndAwake

            I just deleted most of my reply because it came across as rude and mean spirited. I’ll just say the following…

            With attitudes like yours, it won’t be long before all of our rights are privileges. I choose to do something – directly – about ridiculous laws. I practice jury nullification. I will never find a person guilty of a truly victimless crime. I only wish more people would realize that the founders gave juries more power than all three branches of government. All We the People need to do is choose to exercise it. I hope you consider that the next time you’re called to serve.

            Remember, the government’s power over you is an illusion. Simply withdraw your consent, and you too can be a freeman again.

          • Bill

            So the rule of law that our Nation was founded on means nothing to you. Do you make your own license plates?

          • UnpluggedAndAwake

            Jury nullification is a fundamental aspect of the rule of law, Bill. I’m not advocating letting murderers or rapists loose on the streets, but I will always apply the Constitutional principle of “my rights end where yours begin” to each case. I would never convict someone for shouldering a stupid Sig arm brace – who’s rights were violated because of that. I don’t desire to control and bully people. I suspect you get off on it, though. Don’t be an authoritarian your whole life, Bill. Just ease up a little, smile, and enjoy life.

          • Bill

            Jury nullification is wrong, illegal and grounds for a mistrial. You don’t get to decide as an individual which laws you’ll follow and which you won’t. Well, you can, if you can sleep standing up in a corner and think you may have a taste for prison food. You are “lucky” because I believe that the maximum time you can spend in jail for contempt of court is either 6 months or maybe 2 years instead of indefinitely. Think of all the time you’ll have to pat yourself on the back for standing up for your principles. I hope that.s the only patting on the back you get.

            I dont bully people, I don’t have too, but I guess I do enjoy “controlling” them during the course of an investigation and trial. If you’d prefer having all the rapists, child molesters, robbers and killers whose cases I worked on released from prison because they were controlled, contact the Ohio Supreme Court.

            Don’t be an idiot your entire life, Ease up, learn the facts of legislation and the criminal justice system, you’ll figure out that no one’s out to bully you. Wouldn’t that make you feel better?

          • UnpluggedAndAwake

            You’re a fool, Bill. It is NOT illegal, although some judges have attempted to limit its use. The beauty of jury nullification is that there can be NO REPERCUSSIONS… Moron… It takes away authoritarian’s – such as yourself – illusion of power. I bet that just burns you up, Billy-boy. Now, go blow yourself, and please don’t beat your wife or kids tonight. One day your power-trip will come to an end…

          • Bill

            Yeah, It’s Illegal. Jurors swear an oath to follow statutory law and not allow their decisions to be influenced by their personal bias. And there ARE repercussions: it’s called contempt of court, jury tampering, or juror misconduct, such as misstatement of law, depending on your conduct. You also may be jammed up if the issue was addressed in voir dire and you played fast and loose with your answers to the court. Depending on when you start your shenanigans, it may result in a mistrial. You’ve been listening to bad late night talk radio too long.

            The coolest thing is that you stopped at the ad hominem attack level and didn’t follow your own argument to it’s inevitable conclusion: that if it’s OK for YOU to ignore the rules of criminal procedure, it’s OK for ME to do it too, right? Because to you, laws, all of which stem from the Constitution, are irrelevant if they don’t agree with someone’s personal opinions. Therefore, if I believe that someone is guilty of something, but the law or rules of search, seizure and arrest don’t fit the facts of the case, no worries, just do what I think needs to be done. Thanks to the jury nullification crowd, they’ve given me cart blanche to do what I think I should, and ignore the law or criminal rules.

            Thanks, but gee, I think I’ll play by the rules, as codified in the Constitution and interpreted by SCOTUS. Unlike you, I don’t have the freedom to be stupid.

          • Bill

            And you must have sucked most of the oxygen out of my house because I left out the most common, basic repercussion: a simple failure to reach a verdict. After 5 days of listening to you bloviate, the other jurors, who are long past ready to render a verdict and have been plotting to drown you in the coffee pot if they could just figure out how to get rid of your body, simply tell the judge that there’s a holdout and they can’t reach a verdict. You “win” but it’s actually a mistrial, the defendant goes back to jail, pissed because he was really looking forward to seeing old friends and the price of drugs is cheaper in prison versus jail, and we spend another 75,000 bucks to run another trial.

            Yay for you!

      • roguetechie

        Umm… No.

        Listen here sweetie… It’s baked right into the founding documentation which established our country that THEY are the ones breaking the law.

        What you’re seeing right here is yet another example of fit throwing because the American public no longer believes the talking head’s pronouncements that gun ownership is on the decline, most people favor gun control, and that semiautomatic weapons are too dangerous to be in civilian hands. So they got caught… Repeatedly now they’re throwing a fit and doing more flagrantly ILLEGAL stuff to spite us for their last two dozen rounds of illegal S**T didn’t work!

        Clear enough for you Sparky?

        Because if not I can whip it up in coloring book form….

        • Ok keep it civil—

          • roguetechie

            Apologies Phil …

            I get irritated when I see posts like that. They share the same intellectual dishonesty and circular logic that many of us have seen used time and again to coerce those who should speak out into silence. It’s the type of cynical manipulative tactic I file under the heading of “rules lawyer” behavior. Rather than actually engaging in meaningful dialogue that addresses the actual issue, concern, or situation at hand the rules lawyer instead will always find some way to insinuate or outright accuse the other party of lying, obfuscation, focusing on minutiae or attempting to evade their accusations or insinuations while using all of the aforementioned tactics themselves in their pursuit of discrediting not just the other person’s point but the very person or group itself!

            This is in fact, exactly what the commenter in this instance did. In fact MANUALS have been published outlining these exact tactics and how to use them to discredit the progun community! Also of note, these manuals specifically mention how the more reasonable the responses to the initial post the easier it is to frame the inflammatory accusations as having legitimacy!

            Long story short, being nice is for suckers. Posts like that need shut down HARD if American gun owners know what’s good for them.

      • Rick A

        The Sig brace “poking the bear” foolishness is overblown. Under this administration any excuse will be used to institute further restrictions.

        People doing what is deemed legal should have no bearing.

        Agencies banning use the of items and types of ammunition with no justification is a definite concern.

        7n6 and M855/SS109 has been a staple for inexpensive target ammo for decades.

        The SS109/M855 is designed for a 20″ barrel and makes a terrible short barreled pistol round.

        “Sporting purpose” is simply a bunch of bullshit.

        IF THIS DOES NOT WORRY YOU, YOU ARE BLIND TO THE AGENDA.

        That people just turn over and accept this as okay is disturbing.

  • spencer60

    And bang! Every online outlet has now been emptied of 855.

    Our largest local retail had a gentleman walk in with an Amex Black card and by the remainder of the pallet they had on sale for $279/1000.

    Wonder what the new price will be?

  • TangledThorns

    Even though I already have 2000rds of M855/SS109 that I never shoot I bought a case of PPU M855 for $339w/free shipping on PSA when I caught early wind of this last night. Looks like I bought it in time, I hadn’t seen a panic like this since Newtown. Anyways, I contacted my Rep and Senators and you should do the same.

  • guzzlegas

    oh no they dint int!

    i think for 2016 we need a prez that can revamp the batfe, epa, and leave nato.

    • Dan

      Id rather leave the U.N first.

  • From the ATF document:

    It is important to note that only projectiles that meet the
    statutory definition of “armor piercing” – i.e., those made out of the specific listed materials that
    may be used in a handgun – are subject to the statutory restrictions. As a result, manufacturers
    are, and will continue to be, free to manufacture projectiles from non-restricted materials,
    completely independent of the application of this framework or any exemptions. ATF will
    accept comments for 30 days from the date this notification, which will be considered prior to
    finalizing the framework.

    • the ammo addict

      The Catch-22 is that so many materials suitable for making bullets or bullet cores are specifically banned by statute. Copper, lead, zinc, and aluminum are pretty much all that’s left. And the BATFE really HATES zinc bullets because they penetrate armor quite well. They tend to lean pretty hard on any manufacturer that starts making zinc or zinc alloy ammunition.

  • Fox

    Barren shelves in 3…2…And it’s all gone…

  • Jack

    They just fricken took away new imports of 7n6 not to long ago, now they are attacking this? WTF!?$%$ I guess if they can’t take the guns away, they make them into useless paper weights…This whole this is absolutely asinine! They should be defunded if not completely dismantled as they are a drain on the US tax payer and a waist of funds.

  • n0truscotsman

    Well good job. Now the neckbeard crowd has also bought out 55gr xm193 stuff.

    Never underestimate the immensity of panic mongering i guess.

    • Dan

      They were running to walmart at all hours of the night here, my friend works part time stocking shelves overnight and was sending pictures of these fat mouth breathers in their sweat pants waiting at the gun counter for help

  • UnpluggedAndAwake

    It seems that the heavier grain weighted match rounds could be banned as a result of this. These are not designated as light armor piercing, but the weight ratio of 25% could be a problem. If I am correctly interpreting the “rule.”

  • UnpluggedAndAwake

    Actually, now that I have read the statute several times…

    (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
    which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
    substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
    brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

    (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended
    for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
    percent of the total weight of the projectile.

    My take – and I’m not a lawyer…

    (i) the m855 is NOT constructed entirely of any of the prohibited materials.
    (ii) the m855 was NOT “designed and intended” for use in a handgun. And the use of the word “and,” not “or” for the 25% weight is important.

    So, I have no idea how this can be interpreted to restrict the manufacture and sale of the m855… Just my 2 pennies…

    • Reynauld

      It’s my take as well and I AM a lawyer..the 5.56 mm round was never designed and intended to be used in a handgun.

    • McThag

      The operative phrase that applies to M855 and any SS109 variant is “projectile core.” M855 is AP by the standards of 18 U.S.C. §§ 921(a)(17) (B) (i).

      The miracle was that it was ever exempted and it stayed exempted for as long as it did.

      • UnpluggedAndAwake

        That must be the angle… But for consistency, won’t they be required to also ban all the other steel core pistol ammo on the market? for example, the 9mm WOLF and GECO?

        • UnpluggedAndAwake

          After a quick Google, I guess they’re okay since they are bi-metal jackets, not actually solid cores…

        • sianmink

          Yeah was gonna to say that isn’t steel core, it’s a mild steel jacket over a lead core.

      • the ammo addict

        Incorrect. The exemption was never needed in the first place. The core of M855 is a combination of lead and steel. The 5.45×39 7n6 bullet is a copper plated steel jacket, air pocket, lead outer core, and a steel inner core. The M855A1 is a copper jacket, with a copper core (bismuth-tin alloy in early versions), and a steel tip. All three of these have been administratively banned by the BATFE even though they clearly do not meet the definition spelled out in the law. “A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium.” None of these three projectiles or projectile cores is composed entirely of one or a combination of the listed materials. The mere presence of one of the listed materials does not mean that the projectile meets the definition of armor piercing as defined by the law.

  • Scott P

    But, but, but…..pragmatism, baby steps, small victories, the ability to carry is the only thing that matters now, don’t rock the boat now

    /sarcasm

  • supergun

    eliminate the atf.

  • supergun

    I did not know that the atf could make laws.

    • Rob in Katy

      No Agency can do so Constitutionally, Congress may not delegate their power to make law…So the commies came up with “regulations.” Sorry, almost went off on a rant…

      • supergun

        If only the people who break the law trying to make illegal laws could be punished.

  • Roebuck

    What about steel core handgun rounds? Wouldn’t that fall under section “I”?

  • sianmink

    Well so much for getting cheap surplus M855. #thanksobama

  • Michael

    Good thing the DoD provides me with infinite amounts of ammo. Thanks taxpayers!

  • Tom Currie

    Goody goody — now we have another bogus ammo “shortage” and obscene price gouging because someone said the B word (ban). This is just like every grocery being sold out of Bread and Milk within an hour after the weather forecast says the S word.

  • the_duck

    Never thought that a citizen using an AR Pistol while shouldering a Sig Brace whilst shooting M855 would be the hottest iron in the fire right now for the ATF.

    • UnpluggedAndAwake

      You would probably get double-life for that type of felonious behavior, that is if you’re not erased at the range from a drone-fired hellfire first… 😉

  • attack beaver

    I can’t believe my tax dollars are funding this BS

  • Jeff Fisher

    The Bushmaster ARM pistol has been around since 1977, as has M855 ammunition. What have these guys been doing all this time? Oh right! Smuggling guns to the cartels.
    The announcement from the ATF did accomplish one thing, though.
    A bunch of XM193 fanboys who wouldn’t touch M855 with a ten foot pole before their little announcement now have a decent supply of the very ammunition they want to ban.
    Watching the inventory counter on LG drop was pretty funny and also sad at the same time.
    These guys are facilitating the incremental destruction of American freedom and have the gall to believe they’re somehow “good guys”.
    We can always count on the ATF to supply guns to narco-terrorists, entrap and arrest mentally handicapped people, lose fully-automatic weapons in the worst neighborhoods available and make illogical dictates based on nothing. I’m sure if we give it 30 seconds they’ll do something else stupid.
    If an ATF agent is reading this, read and comprehend my words: I have more respect for a stray pubic hair left on a public toilet by the guy who used it before me than I have for you and your agency. I hope you and all your ATF friends fall on hard financial times, lose everything you have and live out the rest of your days under an overpass, eating the soggy remains of a dirty paper napkin you found in a Taco Bell trashcan, huddling around a flaming barrel of your own waste and talking about the “good ‘ole days” when you could ban whatever you wanted.
    I’m sure after reading that you’re feeling the usual .GOV desire to somehow make me pay for daring to question your “service” or “authority” or whatever; trying to find a way to twist my words into something you can abuse to make the pain go away. Hey, what can I say. I know how you government types think.
    There’s nothing in what I typed that could be construed in any way as anything other than harmless contempt and disgust, neither of which is against the law.
    As for dealing with your inner pain, I recommend compulsive gambling, legal consumption of bulk quantities of alcohol and consensual unprotected sex with a strange women of legal age. Do all three simultaneously for a few weeks and your inner pain will clear right up.
    I promise.

    • Bill

      You have absolutely no clue what ATF agents do besides what you and your internet minutemen buddies pull out of your ass, do you? In the greater mission of the agency, you and your “issues” are such small fry there isn’t a strainer small enough.

      • the ammo addict

        Hello Mr. BATFE agent.

        • Bill

          No, I’m a local, who has worked on cases with ATF agents, none of which involved individuals and their choice of ammo. The cases typically involved outlaw motorcycle gang members, who were dealing stolen firearms, along with drugs and women, yeah, they offered to sell a teen-aged girl to an undercover agent for $2,000 among others, a robbery crew who were involved in a gun store break-in who shot several of their victims after hitting a dozen or so places over multiple states, and an anhydrous case where a meth dealer was selling his excess to a bomb maker. That doesn’t count the assistance I’ve had from them in routine stuff like tracing and identifying stolen guns and explosives, and doing really heinous stuff like getting it recovered and returned to the rightful owner.

          So in the big picture, this petty, ignorant whining about the big bad ATF over a technical rule concerning ammo doesn’t impress me a bit. Don’t like the laws they enforce? There’s a mechanism for changing them, called legislation, so stop your pity party and boohooing over the big mean federal agents and get your Senators and Representatives to draft the legislation you want. And if you don’t know how administrative rules and federal regulations are promulgated, stop blubbering on a blog and start educating yourself.

          Have they had screw-ups? Sure. Have you? Has accurate information about those screw-ups been made entirely public? No, plenty of misinformation is floating around, and it comes from all sides.

          Some gun owners really inflate their own ego and sense of self-importance when it comes to the ATF: unless you are doing something really serious, you just aren’t worth the effort nor are you that important.

          • Jeff Fisher

            So how many “technical rules” will it take before the real actual “big picture” plan becomes something you can’t ignore?
            Fist 7N6, then M855. What’s next?
            Maybe XM193 due to “excessive velocity” or something?
            Ultra-lightweight .223 because of “excessive fragmentation”?
            7.62x39mm due to a malicious interpretation of the “Sporting Purposes” bit?
            7.62x51mm because this, 9x19mm because that.
            I bet they could even get their fingers into the 12GA arena…
            Give the ATF time and they’ll get around to the other calibers.
            It’s already possible to “Redesign” a device by holding it wrong. The ATF is pretty creative, in a malicious, nasty way.
            Maybe you think your supposed position as a local LEO will protect you?
            I hope you never find out how wrong you are.
            The ATF might accidentally do some good here and there, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. The FBI is more than capable of handling investigation such as the ones you listed. “Investigation” is even in the FBIs name. It’s the “I” part of FBI.
            Also, listing credentials on the internet as proof of knowledge is a terrible tactic. If I listed my creds, you’d call me a liar, right? Yeah, I thought so.
            LEOs returning a stolen gun to its owner? Riiiight…

          • Bill

            I don’t call people anything without something called “evidence.” Now, are you calling me a liar about having recovered property, including firearms, returned to it’s rightful owner, by LE agencies? So what are your reds? How much time have you spent in the field? How many ATF agents have you actually met? How many criminal cases are you or have you been personally involved in that involved that agency?

            Yeah, I thought so.

          • Jeff Fisher

            Sure. I’ll call you a liar if you’d like.
            Liar.
            No matter what I say, you’ll never give it credence.
            This. Is. The. Internet.
            I’ll just call you a “useful idiot” and be done with it.

          • Bill

            I get the same routine from the sundry drunks and village idiots as they babble away in the back of the cruiser on their way to jail, so I’ll just agree with everything you say, ’cause I know what they and you hear is pretty muffled, what with your head being stuck so far up your ass. Have at it, Cletus

          • Jeff Fisher

            Maybe if you’re lucky you’ll get to help your federal taskmasters arrest me for all my “crimes” before it’s your turn to take a ride in the back seat.
            You know I’m right. Fantasizing about sending me to jail for DARING to challenge your “authority” tells me all I’ll ever need to know about you.

          • Bill

            Per usual, you’ve misinterpreted everything. I wasn’t “fantasizing” about arresting you, I was pointing out that you have the intellectual horsepower of a drunken idiot.

          • Jeff Fisher

            Sure…

          • Bill

            A: You aren’t that important.
            B: You’re starting to sound like this is some homoerotic fantasy of yours. No, just no.
            C: This is pointless, neither of us is going to convince the other, so I’m out, tell yourself you “won” and have a celebratory cookie

          • sianmink

            Hey if we don’t raise a stink and call a ‘reinterpretation’ of a ‘technical rule’ what it is, unfounded bullshit and a direct attack on our ability to buy affordable ammunition, then we may as well just turn in our guns and our testicles right now.

          • toms

            This will cost 300+ million dollars or more of trade and revenue over just a couple of years. Imagine ATK not being able to sell their 2 billion rounds of contract overruns each year. Its the most common production round in the world. This will significantly affect interstate commerce, jobs, imports, longshoreman, shipping companies ect. based on bad data and obviously flawed logic. This is a significant decision that is not made by some low level technocrat. This is a very deliberate strike at firearm owners. This is back door gun control period. No officer has or will lose his life over being shot by m855 vs m193 from a pistol, period. Either unfortunately would be fatal. Just a fact.

          • Bill

            Where did you get your data from? If ATK is $2,000,000,000 over the requirement of their contract, they shouldn’t be in business. And how “significant” is “significant?” As significant as a late freeze that destroys the Florida orange crop for a year? How many people in how many occupations would that effect? Is the market for oranges larger or smaller than the market for M885 ammunition, which is just one of a broad range of rounds offered in that caliber.

            Do you honestly think a cabal at the ATF thought, “If we ban M885, we’ll show those AR owners,and they’ll be SOL.” Dumb ruling, but don’t you think they might just have known that there are dozens of other rounds out there for that caliber?

            How about .50 BMG? What .mil versions of that round have been banned? I’m not a .50 shooter, so I’m not that familiar with the ammo, but 30 seconds on Google turned up ball, match, tracer and API. Obviously the 5.56 is far more common, but seriously, if you were out to disarm an obstreperous populace, wouldn’t you pay a little attention to the big guns with the small lobby?

            I’m opposed to banning any ammo, with the obvious exceptions of Stinger missiles and anthrax spores. I’m more opposed to a group of people who respond with wild theories unsupported by evidence and who immediately panic and start with name calling and mis- and -disinformation. As the SIG brace proved, we are our own worst enemy.

          • Jeff Fisher

            That’s right. Carry that water.

          • noguncontrol

            big deal, there are lots of other agencies that can shut down motorcycles gangs, robbers and terrorists, like the FBI, the police, secret service, and others. the ATF does not need to exist, it should be shut down itself. the ATF does not just enforce laws, it also creates the very laws it enforces, like a king or emperor.

            And that is the big picture!!!!

            is importing 7N6 important or serious? is selling M855 to civilians important or serious? is it really worth the effort to ban these? what crimes will banning these types of ammo stop? NONE!

            Stop defending the ATF.

          • Bill

            Actually, all these agencies work together, but look up their jurisdiction. The FBI has incredibly limited jurisdiction, because we don’t want a national police force, do we? J. Edgar did everything he could, up to and including blackmail, and it didn’t work. The FBI and ATF now fight over bombing cases: The FBI wants them as cases of terrorism, the ATF wants them because explosions involve explosives, the “E” in BATFE. You really don’t know anything about the Secret Service, do you? Their primary mission is the investigation of counterfeiting, except for the counterfeiting of passports, which belongs to the Diplomatic Security Service. Protecting VIPs is a fraction of their workload. The police? which ones? There are approximately 18,000 local and state law enforcement agencies employing about 750,000 cops. The average size in my state 13 officers. One county I lived in had over 70 state and local agencies. How are that many agencies going to coordinate a multi-state case in which a gang is using stolen and illegal firearms? They are going to do it in a task force managed by the ATF, that has the resources and expertise to do so.

            Or would you prefer one, huge national police force? Heck, even in the soviet union they had multiple agencies.

            “Stop defending the ATF.” Who are you to tell me what to do? What are you going to do if I don’t, attack me with a hatchet? Shoot me in my cruiser while I’m writing a report? Hide in the bushes at shift change and snipe at me and other officers while we are coming and going? Blow up the building I work in, and kill 16 kids in the process? Those are all things done by other rabid anti-government types. Proud of them?

          • Jeff Fisher

            You basically just called gun owners domestic terrorists. I haven’t threatened you in any way. From what I’ve read on this board no one else has either.
            You call us terrorists because we despise your anti-freedom BS.
            You LOVE your servitude, don’t you?
            I hear there’s a plan to control the internet too! Bet you’re excited about that!
            Get the guns, then work on speech, religion and anything else your heart desires.
            We see you for what you are.

      • Jeff Fisher

        I knew I’d get a rise out of at least one anti-freedom zealot with this comment.
        I’m guessing you’re an ATF agent, or maybe you know one.
        When has the ATF ever made an attempt to expand or safeguard the freedom of Americans with respect to alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives?
        The ATF doesn’t concern itself with maintaining freedom, only with the gradual increase in their level of control.

        The ATF targets innocent Americans while arming the wicked, and they do it ON PURPOSE in pursuit of a political agenda.

        Individual agents may pay lip-service to freedom, but they know deep down inside that if the ATF were to ever carry out its plans to the fullest, the end result will be the elimination of legal civilian ownership and use of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives.

        Your disgust for Americans concerned about the gradual erosion of their freedoms betrays your true allegiance. You DO know what once you’ve played your part your taskmasters will discard you, much like the sauce-encrusted napkin you’ll be living off of, right?
        Yessss. Let the butthurt flow through you…

        • Bill

          Back away from the Kool-Aid……

      • sianmink

        ” In the greater mission of the agency, you and your “issues” are such small fry there isn’t a strainer small enough.”
        And that is exactly why we’re pissed off. You’d know that if you were paying attention. If you’re right, then they’re better off just dropping it for the administrative, infringing bullshit it is, aren’t they?

  • rollen

    “Throw down all yer weapons ye rebels and disperse!”

    Time to turn in all the green tip ammo one round at a time.

    We are the posterity of simple Men. They no different then you or I , with families and jobs and every day responsibilities. They chose to throw off a yoke of oppression in times of uncertainty and drafted laws so we may do the same.

    Can anyone honestly say this government is representative of the people it’s ment to serve?
    Can it be truthfuly said it even serves the people or does it strive to regulate, control and gain greater power on the labor and toil of the productive people of the nation?

    Protect what is yours, for it is your natural right. When any other says otherwise choose to cower and forfit or stand true and fight.

    • rollen

      Start at the ballot box.
      Stand on your soap box.
      Use the jury box. (jurors prudence)
      Fill up the mail box.

      After that there is only one box left and if it comes to that the nation is all but lost

  • lifetimearearesident

    In related news CTD cancels all outstanding orders for 5.56 ammo. Two days later the same ammo re-appears on the CTD website at a dollar per round.

    • n0truscotsman

      LOL like i didn’t see that coming 😛

      I noticed yesterday evening that people were buying out the M193 stuff too in some places. Major WTFO moment.

      My letter was very short and concise. Not courteous and completely devoid of civil words such as “consider” “please” “thank you” and other such niceties the ATF doesn’t even deserve.

  • Some Dude

    The Sig arm brace thing could have been one giant setup from the start in order to popularize AR pistols. Then they would have a technical reason to ban M855.

    • Bill

      So SIG is part of the conspiracy by introducing the arm brace? Hmmm, they do sell a lot of guns to federal agencies…..

  • Tommy Huynh

    “so I think they are going after the angle of the steel jacket weighing more than 25 percent of the entire round” Good God, you read more educated posts on USENET than the articles written here. The jacket is not steel.

  • Marc

    Neither I) or II) applies to M855, not by a long shot.

  • Aaron Russell

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6-12

    Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6-11

  • Dan

    Maybe omit any mention of its previous intended design to penetrate body armor.

  • dsd1

    my thoughts are once they get this extremely common round designated as “armor piercing” because it can go through soft armor – then they will simply move to say “oh, hey – all these other rifle calibers go through soft armor too! they are armor piercing too!”

    it is the typical camel’s nose under the tent – yet again…

  • Tassiebush

    It’s inconsistent with their own logic. On the one hand a pistol with an arm brace when used as an arm brace remains a pistol but on the other hand this ammo when used by a rifle and designed for a rifle is defined as armour piercing pistol ammo….

  • Sn SM

    “Ownership and purchasing isn’t felonious, it’s selling and
    manufacturing. So it large manufacturers and people with reloading
    supplies that might want to be careful.”

    This assumes….as the rule of law crumbles in this country…that more and more
    folks give a fig…. For many of us the BATF “making up law a they go” on the
    Sig brace was the last straw. It is a central feature of kings and tyranny that
    law is “made” by the ruling elite without accountability or legitimacy. Unfortunately
    for the mods gun ownership IS political…you just cannot separate them.

  • toms

    We can in some ways thanks to the NRA for that. Its only recently that gun owners started appreciating military rifles/ MGs suppressors, ect. in mass. American gun owners were majority FUDDS and went at gun rights from a hunting personal defense angle and not the correct one which is or the arming of the militia.The
    nra was intimately involved with the this although they have recently changed direction. Unfortunately we now have to make up for 8 decades of lost momentum, court decisions, and public opinion. It started with the militia act of 1914 or whatever which nationalized the militia into the NG. This is the cornerstone argument for ANTIs and the 2nd amendment revisionist agenda although the constitution trumps those arguments in any case.

  • Guest

    They are doing this for a reason: Reposted from AKFILES

    1)When NATO adopted 5.56, they didn’t just agree on a cartridge, like they did with 7.62. They all agreed on a BULLET and load as well, that being the SS109 bullet(known here as M855). Now what ammunition is usually the least expensive here? Military surplus, of course. NATO nations are starting to adopt new 5.56 loads, the US included. Which means that all of that M855(and equivalent) ammunition is about to become surplus, some of it already has. The punch line is this:If they ban M855, they have literally kept BILLIONS of rounds out of the US, and more or less completely killed the surplus market for 5.56mm, since almost all foreign military 5.56 is M855 or equivalent. That’s big win #1.

    2)I’ve been saying for years that the biggest ammo acquisition the feds could make would be to obtain the M855 ammunition being phased out by the Armed Forces. The amount of ammo involved here would make all those new DHS ammo orders looks small in comparison. Ironically enough, no one seems to be watching this issue, but I digress. Obviously, thanks to the Klintonistas, surplus US military ammo is not sold here to civilians. So that was never on the table to begin with. Surplus US military ammo is dis-assembled and the components sold. These are often purchased by ammo manufacturers, re-assembled and sold. Also, the M855 production contract was HUGE. When the Army changed to M855A1, there was still a shitload of M855 to be delivered. Since Uncle Sam didn’t want it, it has been re-packaged and sold commercially(which they could do since the military never took possession of it). That’s why we’ve had LC stamped M855 at Wal-Mart the last few years. I said all of that to say this:If they ban M855, then the federal agencies will be the SOLE outlet for all of that ammo. SO they will be able to quietly obtain another HUGE amount of ammo, but without all of the press of their earlier orders. That’s big win #2.

    3)If the first 2 weren’t enough, there is another reason. M855 and equivalents make up a good sized portion of the 5.56 ammunition available to us now. So if it goes away, the available ammunition in 5.56 is greatly reduced. At the same time, because ARs have effectively become like 10/22s in that they are almost universally available. So now we have them manipulating that supply and demand thing to work against us. Which means:the cost of ALL 5.56 ammunition will go up drastically, and it will be much less available. So all of those brand new AR15s will be much harder to feed. That’s big win #3.

    -MACE2364 from AKFILES

  • ozzallos .

    An excerpt from correspondence to my Senator–

    “The entire premise of the opening paragraph (of the ATF’s explanation) is enormously
    flawed; to the point of being transparently disingenuous.

    First, we’re to assume that a massive number of officers die each year due to 5.56 inflicted injury, requiring this change. I will refute this outright. According to the FBI, of the 76 law enforcement officers that died in 2013, 26 were killed by firearms. Of that 26, 18 were slain with handguns, five with rifles, and three with shotguns. Unfortunately, I cannot find obtain further detail on the either handgun victims, but I would be willing to bet only a fraction of those 18- if even that -fell to a 5.56 round. While I certainly feel for the families of the officers involved, no compelling need has been demonstrated by the ATF to institute such a ban.

    Second, banning this round and this round alone will not save officer lives, as any 5.56 round will easily defeat a Level III vest. Conversely, no M855/SS109 will not penetrate the higher protection offered by full plate armor. Banning this round quite literally accomplishes the ATFs stated goal. Third, the ATF has already defined this round as not armor piercing. They did not “exempt” it—It literally failed to meet the criteria they themselves authored!

    In effect, they have to change their own prose in order to substantiate a ban.

    None of this even touches the implications this change has upon our country’s Second Amendment. Specifically, the rights conveyed by it were not for intended to regulate the citizen’s ‘sporting purposes’…”

  • echelon

    Write letters, make phone calls…for the love of CHILDREN, vote!

    LOL

    Your masters are shaking their fingers at you slaves…

    They will ban whatever they want to ban today, tomorrow and forever and you will listen and obey.

    • Bill

      Oh jeez, look back 25 years and compare the regs then to what we have today. I’m firmly convinced that there is a younger generation of gunners who really think the “good old days” were good.

      • echelon

        There were no “good old days”. They are myth at worst or nostalgic waxing at best.

  • Vitsaus

    This is more fallout from the SIG armbrace bear poking. BATFE is doing a counter offensive now thanks to all the clowns that put AR and other rifle caliber pistols so squarely on their radar. Good work guys.

    • Rick A

      I don’t agree. AR pistols have been around for decades. So has M855/SS109 and 7n6. Don’t blame your fellow gun owners for government spun ass hattery. There have been pistols available in rifle calibers for ages.

      There is no justification for these ammo bans or the “pistol misuse is SBR” foolishness.

      Do something about it.

      Your attention is misplaced.

  • Aaron E

    Already sent BATFE my “feedback” on this ass-hattery! Working on the elected mopes now. This is just asinine, and goes to show that when you try to “regulate” a Constitutional Right, you end up mucking up the clarity of every little thing.

  • Vitor

    The mexican cartels will sure enjoy all the M855 ammo they will get for almost free.

  • Sapper

    All 223 and 5.56 is able to penetrate a level 3 vest even when fired from a pistol. But even green tiped 5.56 is stopped by a level 3a plate when fired from a rifle let alone a pistol. How can they justify this?

  • smartacus

    from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium COPPER or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
    *that means copper bullets are forbidden?
    you KNOW that’s how California is gonna interpret it. No lead, and No copper either.

  • smartacus

    All M855 manufacturing should be located in a state (or states) where Federal Gun Control laws have been declared unenforceable.

  • Bill

    We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, but states are legalizing weed right and left. In my state if I catch you blazing up I think it’s a $75 dollar ticket. I don’t know for certain, because I rely on the Mexican Reefer Dance. Citizens in cages get due process, oops, except for places like Gitmo or an overseas rendition site. I don’t know exactly what “spying” you are referring to; NYPD got slapped for surveilling mosques, but there’s a CFR, can’t remember the number, but it directly controls and restricts intelligence gathering by the police. We are a long way from the FBI being J. Edgar Hoover’s personal intelligence agency. And forfeiture is not nearly as easy as the Cato Institute would like you to believe.

    People tend to forget that all the SCOTUS rulings that REALLY control government behavior didn’t exist back in the 1700s and 1800s. It wasn’t until the mid 1900’s through now that the Court has delivered opinions that really put the brakes on government intrusion, like Gideon, Mapp, Terry, Brown, Escobedo, Carroll, Graham, Heller, and a bunch more I’m too tired to type. The Constitution didn’t grow teeth until centuries after the Drafters were dead and gone.

    My stock reply to the claim that we have a too-powerful government is to try the alternative. Live for a year or so in Somalia or Chechnya and then let’s hear your opinions on the rule of law, big government and so forth. Some people might like it: guns are EVERYWHERE and nearly anything you want, albeit with a dubious maintenance record.

  • noguncontrol

    abolish this damn atf already!!! what are the Republicans doing?

  • noguncontrol

    small portion or not, if they commit evil, like they did when the banned 7N6 and now M855, then it doesnt matter how much good they do. they would be no different from the mafia who help orphans but traffic drugs and prostitution and murder people.

  • The Carden Chronicles

    The author said “this is about a change in the law not politics.” I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE! ATF does NOT make law. Only CONGRESS makes law (despite what the White House thinks). This is a “Framework for Determining” what the ATF THINKS Congress meant by “Sporting Purposes” when Congress passed 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). Therefore this is NOT about the law– this is the BATFE PLAYING PURE POLITICS at the expense of gun owners.

  • aweds1

    The Sig brace flip-flop is an ATF judgment and opinion that can land a user in a felony based on subjective conditions of use. 41P is still going through the comment period, but whether or not they choose to change NFA trusts is still up to ATF. It was they who initiated the rule change in the first place. Adding M855 ammunition to the list of proposals is a decision by those within ATF itself, too.

    The occasions where executive agencies are instigating rule changes is growing. My point is that no one outside of the bureaucracy is asking for these changes. It’s akin to throwing mud against a wall and seeing what sticks. If a cubicle drone type didn’t start the process to alter conditions of use and ownership, we wouldn’t be discussing this.

    • Bill

      There is nothing stopping you or anyone from proposing rule changes or new legislation, it just involves hard work and research in drafting it. Agencies are flooded with poorly drafted suggested rule changes, a lot of which are strictly based on emotions, and not facts or law. If there is an increase in CFRs and Administrative Rules it’s because most of the people with the technical knowledge to write them work for the agency involved, hence the comment period and the potential for a hearing before the Congressional subcommittee that overseas that agency or legal/topical area. And let’s not forget the lobbyists, whose job is to Influence the rule makers to the benEdit their employers

    • One Republican

      I must be missing something, it says a projectile LARGER than .22 caliber. The 5.56 is a .22 caliber. So how do they get around that?

  • Eric Holder

    Look at what it actually says………22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun. The M855 was not designed or intended for use in a handgun so………..an individual who would put it IN a handgun (by ATF definitions) creates a “redesign” of the round through their actual behavior (lol) by placing it in a handgun. I believe the M855 was developed and used by the US Military for a RIFLE. The ATF did not ban the Sig Brace they simply said we do not like someone buying it with the INTENDED purpose of just shouldering it. Same principal should apply………M855 should still be available as long as the person does not buy it with the INTENDED purpose of firing out of a PISTOL which is where ALL this crap is being originated from. The only problem is ATF does things based on which way the wind is blowing.

  • Rick A

    Not politics my ass!

    For those that think this is okay I’ve been shooting M855 and SS109 for twenty years and there’s absolutely nothing special about it and there’s plenty of better choices available for most purposes but it was inexpensive and available as a target or plinking round. It is military ball ammo like any other. Scratching a target trap is hardly armor piercing!

    It is one of the worst rounds from short barrels for various reasons.

    There is no justification for these ammo bans.

  • walter12

    Silly ATF. It is only a dumb proposal. It does not mean anything. They are always proposing more idiotic things.

  • itsmefool

    Does this even matter now? I can’t find XM855 anywhere! Sarc off.

  • Ken

    They’re creating a “solution” to a problem that doesn’t exist. There aren’t reports of people shooting cops with m855 rounds to defeat their kevlar. None. Zero. Zilch. But, hey, BATF is doing this for our own protection.

  • cmblake6

    I’ve written my letter regarding this as an attempt to remove inexpensive surplus ammunition from competition shooters and hunters. Perhaps if enough flood them, they’ll wake up?

  • PC

    Nobody cares what the BATFE says. If you don’t agree with a law, just don’t follow it. Millions of people think driving 55 mph and jaywalking are stupid, sex outside of marriage (illegal) is nobody’s business but your own, and make it a point to ignore such laws every day. More than likely you do to.

    If they can prove to a jury that I have harmed anyone in anyway by shooting green tipped bullets at steel targets to a jury, or a victim can come forward and testify to such an extent (the steel targets), then they are welcome to go for it.

    You people forget that a jury has to find you guilty. The key words being a jury and guilty. If you own a minigun that can spew thousands of rounds of green tipped bullets out a minute, which is a serious violation of the law… but you don’t feel a damn bit guilty about it, because you’ve hurt no one… and there is no victim to come forward to testify how you have injured them in any way… the jury is going to say… hum, why are you wasting our god damn time. Not guilty. And

    If you yourself are on a jury, you need to do the same. It doesn’t matter if someone is breaking the law. The only thing that matters if there has been a real injury to a real person… without that, no crime has been committed, at all.

    Those who obey, by definition, must be slaves. Stop obeying what other people tell you to do with your life. I’m not a gun advocate, but its pretty clear to me. I’m not going to find you guilty of anything at all just because you have some green tipped bullets in your pocket. As long as you’re not hurting anyone else, you are golden.

    • Samir

      “Nobody cares what the BATFE says. If you don’t agree with a law, just don’t follow it.”

      Unfortunately for you, there are millions of people whose job it is to make sure you obey the law. They’re called police officers.

  • USAFRPK

    Contact the BATFE and let them know your sentiments reference this proposed change to the law. We can complain all we want to here OR contact the department responsible for the proposed change AND our representatives in D.C. who fund the BATFE. These people all work for you and me, Citizens of these United States. You still have the right to contact your elected officials. If you don’t, you just may be surrending your position to the politicians. If you chose to contact BATFE or your elected officials, do not rant and rave. Tell them WHY the removal of XM855 (and later possibly XM193) is the wrong path to take. Thank you!

  • Michael Riley

    Please contact ATF concerning this matter. Please be mature. Copy your legislators. Join the NRA and the GOA (NRA legislative clout; GOA NO compromise attitude). Get active in support of the 2nd Amendment. VOTE.

    Thanks to MAC on YouTube for the addresses and the sample letter.

    ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

    Fax: (202) 648-9741.

    To whom it may concern,

    I am writing to voice my strong opposition to the proposed change to current law that would make it illegal to manufacture, import or sell on the open market M855 / SS109 ammunition.

    The claimed purpose of this change is to “protect the lives and safety of law enforcement officers from the threat posed by ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest when fired from a handgun”.

    As the Technical Branch well knows, all rifle ammunition of a common caliber such as .223 / 5.56 is capable of penetrating threat level IIA and IIIA body armor regardless of the firearm that is used to fire it. M855 / SS109 is no more of a threat to law enforcement than M193 or Horandy VMAX loads are.

    It’s also worth noting that rifle caliber pistols are rarely used in violent crime, their usage is a statistical zero for all practical purposes, which further begs the question as to why this proposed rule change is being considered.

    Banning the availability of affordable surplus ammunition under the false pretense that it’s in the name of officer safety is a clear violation of our 2nd Amendment rights.

    Thank you for your time and consideration,

    FULL NAME
    CITY / STATE

  • Donald Darr

    Okay. We will now let you keep your guns but we’ll ban all ammo. Your gun is now an expensive club!

  • BuzzKillington

    There will be a rush on green paint as neckbeards start trying to pass off phony XM855.

  • Keeb

    I believe all government officials and those that hold positions in a government capacity that do wrong by the American people and our Constitution, this is to include the manipulation by technicalities, all should be shot and start with the one doing the most damage that is in charge. Time to start a new. Nothing wrong in hoping and wishing. what else are dreams made of.

  • Sara

    Join the NRA and fight. Call 877-NRA-2000.

  • Core

    We need to advocate for the Second and anything that restricts the use of firearms. Writing your senators will be more effective, send out as many letters to the BATFE as possible.

  • Bill

    And you continue to be wrong about everything. The role of the jury is to evaluate the evidence presented, including the testimony of witnesses and determine if the evidence indicates beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant by act or omission met the necessary elements of the crime charged, or not, and render a verdict. Issues of law are determined by the judge, not the jury.

    If there is reason to believe that the law is faulty or that there were errors in the conduct of the trial that goes to the appellate court system for determination, NOT the jury room.

    This is really basic stuff. I don’t know which is more scary- that someone could have such a weak grasp of how the legal system works, or that they are hell-bent on sabotaging it.

    • UnpluggedAndAwake

      And you continue to be misguided to a fault. Your desire to conform to the system, any system, has left you blinded to the fact that laws can be unjust or misapplied. There is a reason that guilt and non-guilt or innocence are left to juries of our peers and not judges or magistrates… We the People must always have the final say. You just can’t admit that you’re wrong.

      Don’t worry Bill, if someone raped your daughter (God forbid), and you got to the perp and cut his nuts off before the authorities got to him. And the evidence was overwhelming that he did it… I would not vote to convict you if I were on your jury. Call it what you want…

    • UnpluggedAndAwake

      There is a reason the Constitution dictates that we are to judged by our peers, not some elected or appointed judge or magistrate. This awesome power was granted to We the People in our Republic. I have already given you the evidence of its historical use and legitimacy, yet you continue to opine and complain about your fellow citizens welding that power. What are you afraid of?

      If some criminal hurt a member of your family (God forbid), and you got to him and taught him a lesson in equivalence before the authorities could arrest him, I would not vote to convict you if I were on your jury. What is scary is that if the roles were reversed, you would have no problem dropping the hammer on me.

      • Bill

        Sure I would, because lynching and being judge, jury and executioner is morally and legally wrong. If I found someone standing over your dead body with a smoking gun should I execute they on the spot? If I found you standing over a dead body should I execute you on the spot, or actually investigate and let a grand jury decide if their is reason to believe that a crime was committed? Kind of forgot about grand juries, didn’t you?

        • UnpluggedAndAwake

          I think you enjoying interpreting everything as black or white. You seem to have no concept of the nuances that often accompany the situations we may find ourselves in. People like you scare me, Bill. How indoctrinated must one be to judge the variables of complex scenarios like a state-machine (if this, do that, else, do the other thing). Where is your humanity, lost?

          You continue to describe these outlandish, absurd scenarios to apply my logic to, when you know that is not at all what I am advocating. My litmus test is simple, as I am a Constitution loving student of history and freeman – my rights end where yours begin. It really isn’t that difficult. Most laws on the books are designed and prescribed to work within those boundaries, but not all. I will never be one to just follow the herd because the ruling class says so.

          So here goes, one more time…

          1. If the crime is victimless, is it a crime? I say no (think shouldering a Sig brace).

          2. If a (proven) violent criminal act by some (proven) perpetrator results in said perpetrator being semi-equivalently violated by the victim or guardian of the victim due to stress and rage, is it a crime? I say no. It reminds me of the dad that found the neighbor (17 year old) molesting his son (I think around 9) and nearly beat him to death. You may disagree Bill, but I would do the exact same thing – regardless of what some f@#king rulebook says… i have a 9 year old son, and I can completely relate to this dad.

          3. I am not talking about driving under the influence, robbery, battery, rape, murder, etc… These crimes have victims or potential victims via negligence and should be prosecuted to the fullest.

          I hope this is clear… If a law was passed that said if you have blue eyes you must dye your hair blond, would you comply? It seems to me that you would…

  • Kelly Harrison

    I love TFB but must admit I get a kick out of the professions that “we’re not political”. Of course it’s political! I appreciate the newsy flavor of the blog entries (just the facts ma’am) and staying out of right/left/elephant/donkey mudslinging, but let’s face it. We *do* have a political agenda – protecting the things that we hold dear, namely the inalienable rights enshrined in the Constitution. The Constitution is nothing else if not a political document.

    • Brian M

      I think that the “Firearms not politics” slogan has to do with how the official site stance is only political in terms of delivering news about political and administrative developments regarding gun rights and gun ownership in a very nonpartisan manner. If you go around other firearms websites, and especially if you go on gun boards, you’ll find huge amounts of things like “Evil Liberals (take your picks from the following list if appropriate: Obama/Clinton/Bloomberg/UN/Pelosi/Holder/NWO/Other want to ban all guns and make you defenseless!” I am grateful for how TFB just reports the facts around RKBA issues instead of trying to transform RKBA issues into rallying points for a more partisan political stance.

  • n0truscotsman

    Okay, im disappointed that I have to cover this, but I will

    You jokers that are panic buying wolf 223 and XM193. Knock it the hell off. Nobody said anything about 5.56/223 being banned. Nobody said anything about M855 being banned. Nothing is set in stone.

    This is getting beyond ridiculous.

  • Tothe

    Since a well-equipped and armed general populace is necessary to maintain a free condition, the right of the people to own and carry weapons shall not be infringed.

  • Brian Snyder

    I am a little confused as to what this means for the common AR owner. I just got into the world of ARs and have mine for sporting and SHTF purposes. If this ban goes into effect, what will be our options for ammunition? Does it mean we will end up paying more per round?

    • Tothe

      It basically means no milsurp ammo, and ammo manufacturers can’t use the same production runs for both military and civilian distribution. It may increase costs. It’s also a silly law that makes something benign “illegal” simply because bureaucrats wrote things on paper, and could conceivably get more good people trapped in the “justice” system for non-crimes.

      • Brian Snyder

        Thank you for the reply. I started doing some research on it and found that there is still plenty of other ammo. But I can’t help but thing this is really going to hurt overall supplies. And like you said, its a silly law driven by politics.

  • McGrube

    I’m sorry I live in Montana. Our track record will prove we do not need to be governed on types of ammunition we choose to shoot. As far as other states go, make it ilegal, just not in Montana or other states deemed responsible enough to firearms.
    This “green tip” bullet is great for target practice and was cheap.

  • Tarlz

    Cue panic buyers grabbing and hoarding anything .223 or 5.56 related.
    M855 is a crappy round. It drops like a rock at long range, and it’s not going to fragment like other 5.56 rounds, so it not great for hunting or self defense. And if you just need something for just for plinking, XM193 is a both better and cheaper.
    Of course, the hoarders don’t care about that. Not only make sure that there’s no 5.56 stock, they’ll also drive the price up for every other caliber that’s even remotely military. The sad part is, they won’t even use any of it. It will just sit in basement piles collecting dust. Thanks for keeping everyone else from shooting guys.