The Alternative aka Gun Condom

SLIDE1

Alternative Ballistics has developed a less than lethal option for law enforcement. It acts like a condom for the gun. The “Alternative” is placed over the muzzle end of the slide. It holds onto an alloy metal ball. When the first round is fired, the bullet is captured by the metal ball and the force releases the ball from the slide attachment. It is propelled forward to the shooter’s target. Once fired, the docking device automatically ejects from the slide allowing the next followup shot to be lethal if needed. By increasing the size and mass of the projectile, it supposedly does not penetrate and is not lethal. I am sure there will be instances where it could cause damage or even death. Even rubber bullets have been scrutinized and in some cases have caused death.

 

Here is a diagram showing the unit on a M&P. Other than the potential hazard of installing the device, the Alternative does seem rather well thought out in terms of the user operating their firearm. Consideration for weapon mounted lights and a channel for the front sight does not alter how one uses his or her firearm.

Alt_Ballistics14_Large_Alpha5

 

 

The Alternative device is stored in a pouch on a belt.

Alt_Ballistics_5_small

 

Here is a simulation of the device.

 

I am a little bit concerned with how this device is attached. It causes the user to put their hand awfully close to the muzzle end of the gun. Of course judicial practice of the firearm safety rules will help avoid this, but lets face it when have people been 100% accident free? Police are not immune to accidents. So to have a device that purposely puts their hand in potential danger seems like a bad idea. Add ontop the time and forethought required to prepare this device for a non-lethal confrontation. Of course there is murphy’s law. You are still firing a lethal round at a subject. Could this device somehow fail? I am sure there will be some variable not considered and it still kills someone. However this is just a tool. How the user implements it is up to them.



Nicholas C

Co-Founder of KRISSTALK forums, an owner’s support group and all things KRISS Vector related. Nick found his passion through competitive shooting while living in NY. He participates in USPSA and 3Gun. He loves all things that shoots and flashlights. Really really bright flashlights.

Any questions please email him at nicholas.c@staff.thefirearmblog.com


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  • andrey kireev

    Reminds me of one of those red clown noses on the string…

  • BattleshipGrey

    I like how the diagram doesn’t mention the need for suppressor sights. This will require a LOT more testing before law enforcement even looks seriously at it. Meanwhile, the NYC mayor has probably already placed his order.

    • Nicholas Chen

      Actually it seems like it works with existing sights. Ferguson Police are looking into issuing it.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Which should be almost clearly obvious that it’s the wrong thing to do.

        • dan citizen

          Ferguson is what would happen if Barney Fife organised a police force.

      • Don Ward

        And that’s supposed to be a ringing endorsement?

  • Kirk Newsted

    So let me see if I have this right. A cop is supposed to put this on his duty weapon and shoot a guy once and wait for results? Really?

    • Jeff

      I think the concept is that they carry this around for an at range engagement against the same sort of threat they’d pull a taser or pepper spray on.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        And the issue is you don’t draw a lethal weapon on a target that only warrants a non-lethal solution. Ever. At all. Even for a second.

        • dan citizen

          That is not current training.

        • Kelly Jackson

          That is not current training

          Your posts are bad and you should feel bad for making them.

        • Nicks87

          In certain situations you can. It just depends on Dept policy. Where I work now we can draw on a suspect not presenting a lethal threat but some depts dont allow it. I do agree that its not usually done. It really depends greatly on what the situation is.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Don’t get me wrong, you can and might, I don’t and won’t. I’m not LE, so I keep things in a different frame.

            They have it so that you eve point a gun at someone you have to write it up in a form? Some Idaho guys I was instructing were super cautious about low vs compressed ready if for no other reason than paperwork 😀

          • Nicks87

            Yeah that’s a dept policy for sure. I’m federal so we have a bit more leeway. I do have to indicate on my report if I drew my weapon but it’s never been an issue as long as the situation warranted it. During force on force training and active threat response training we stress that the guys move around in the compressed/contact ready but then transition to low ready or sul when they encounter non-hostile individuals. It’s really just teaching good muzzle discipline.

          • Bill

            You aren’t LE? You don’t have LE training? You aren’t familiar with LE policy, procedure, doctrine and case law? What qualifies you to assess LE practices? You can offer opinions, and I can offer opinions on brain surgery, but that is a body of knowledge that I don’t have, so I’m reticent to critique neurosurgical techniques.

    • Tom Currie

      One additional problem is that the kind of situation the maker of this device envisions is not really a split second event. The instance of an officer holding his weapon on an uncooperative subject who isn’t presenting an immediate threat requiring lethal force occurs mostly with drunk/drugged/wacko subjects, often armed with knives, clubs, or a firearm they aren’t pointing at the police. These situations tend to drag on for several minutes and often involve multiple officers before the situation is resolved.

      So now we have a depressed drunk whose girlfriend just left him, standing in the middle of the street, yelling and holding a kitchen knife — with five officers all standing around with guns drawn in case the drunk decides to get within the magic 21 feet of one of them. Then one officer realizes he has this wonderful “less lethal” device that will stop the incident. So he puts the clown nose on his glock and puts this thing right in the middle of the drunk’s chest expecting everyone to swarm the stunned drunk and cuff him.

      What do you suppose happens when one of the newly arrived officers standing off to the side, suddenly hears and sees the other officer shoot the subject?

      One big bruise and how many small holes are there going to be in the body?

      • Nicks87

        Yep that’s a very likely scenario. I saw a female officer put a round into the pavement once when a car door slammed shut. Luckily she wasn’t pointing her gun at the subject.

      • Bill

        That’s why officer’s “communicate” with each other or do seemingly nonsensical things like yell “less-lethal” or “Taser” multiple times before using it. Sure, mistakes can happen, but we sort of work at coming up with plans to prevent them whenever possible.

        I know of no cases in which a hail of gunfire resulted from an officer shooting someone, often in situations very much like the scenario your posited, with a beanbag or rubber buck from a shotgun.

    • Daisuke0222

      That was my first thought too. I get the “charging assailant” situation… If the target has a knife you’ve got a less lethal option, I can see the potential uses. However, all your follow-ups are going to be the real deal. If standard training is to fire more than one round then check for effect you’re going to have to untrain all of that in order to use this device. It doesn’t fit with standard LEO training.

      Also, to use it you have to 1) draw your weapon, 2) remove your off hand from the weapon to draw the Alternative from its pouch and attach it to the firearm, and 3) regain your two-handed grip. Just seems like a lot of extra work and non-standard training required for effective use, all while you have a target potentially rushing you.

  • David W.

    That’s adorable.

  • Llewellyn Franks

    So let me get this straight, youre supposed to take the time to put this on the muzzle and then essentially negligent discharge into the subject? Thanks but no thanks, I can’t wait till someone kills someone theyre not supposed to because they forgot or “forgot” to put this on. I feel the money put into this could better go to work programs or other things that actually reduce crime and make for safer communities.

  • A.g

    Highly doubtful.

  • TechnoTriticale

    Are the production versions of this also orange color?

    This implies toy gun or training gun, and might result in an otherwise avoidable shooting where a perp might have stood down had they assumed “real gun”. Other scenarios easily develop into even less desirable outcomes.

    • Andrew Hobby

      My immediate reaction (before even reading the article) was “Oh, training device. Non-lethal.)

      • Y-man

        Mine was – Darwin Award – TOY.

    • flyingburgers

      No, the color is correct. Less-lethal weapons, like bean-bag shotguns, are typically colored blaze orange.

  • JumpIf NotZero

    So much NOPE here.

    1. A lethal weapon is not drawn for a non-lethal threat. Once that handgun is drawn from the holster, it’s in play. If a taser or OC is grappled from a cop it’s not the end of their world, but a weapon freely given away from a retention holster….

    2. When seconds count, you need to draw the gun, draw this clown nonsense and combine properly and safely.

    3. You need to fire and wait for desired effect. But any bystander didn’t see you use a taser, they saw and heard a gunshot at a nonlethal threat. This is bad, and could make a situation worse.

    4. Police, mil, and civ all train for 3-5 rounds center mass, or whatever it takes to stop a threat…. So now you have a cop that having fired his less lethal load has a probably chance to follow it up with lead.

    5. If a news media or grand jury sees that you followed a non-lethal action up with lethal one, your life is over.

    6. Ok, for some reason I drew my gun, placed this idiocy on it, and need to go back to holster immediately to grapple with restraining someone, oops can’t reholster until I remove of course.

    7. NO. NO NO NO. No no no no no no. Nooooope. This is all literally a far worse idea than just making the first round a blank or a full-size UTM/training round.

    • lucusloc

      Small nit pick on point 6, I believe the device is supposed to self eject (projectile and mount) on firing, so theoretically you should be able to holster right away.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        I’m saying you didn’t fire/use it. Now you need to manually unclip to get that gun out of play. You might it have time to do that.

        • lucusloc

          Oh right, yeah that would be a problem. I’ll add it to my mental list of why this device is stupid. What are we up to now? 10, 11?

    • echelon

      I think you should stop with your nonsense. You’re really bringing this site down.

      This is just as viable as a product as the PDS Savior shield. Your critical comments or observations are not warranted here.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Lol, we you trolling. Now… As to why Disqus doesn’t have a way to ignore users…

        • echelon

          Well turn about and fair play and all.

          No need to get churlish. We both get on the site to make comments and observations, some positive some negative.

          Let’s be civil. Telling someone they’re explicitly bringing the site down is a touch much, no?

          • Sarah Levin

            “Eshelon” you called the post nonsense. Frankly made perfect sense.

            You countered with no facts either

          • echelon

            Sarah,

            You missed his reply to one of my posts on another article. I was just returning the favor in kind to prove a point.

            I like it when we can all remain civilized and not resort to name calling and denigrating other peoples’ intelligence, etc.

        • Jim_Macklin

          There is a hidden icon to report “inappropriate” remarks, just hover around to the right side of the post.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Yea, that flags them to mods/admin. I want a full ‘block user’.

          • uisconfruzed

            That’s LiveLeak

    • dan citizen

      #1 is not the current case. Lethal weapons are drawn all the time for a wide assortment of reasons.

      I’m not saying this is a good idea, just that it is reality.

      • Nicks87

        He is saying that once it comes out of the holster it becomes a lot easier for bad guy to take it from you. Whereas if it remains in a triple retention holster it’s much more secure. However, cops ARE allowed to draw on someone not presenting a lethal threat as long as they dont pull the trigger until the situation justifies the use of deadly force.

        • dan citizen

          Agreed, a holstered weapon is easier retained.

        • Jim_Macklin

          Not just cops, in many states it is lawful for a person under threat to display a firearm to deter an assault. That is the law in Kansas, but it isn’t in some states, study your own laws and if you have to actual shoot any time you draw or be charged with brandishing, get the law changed.

      • Tom Currie

        The maker of this nonsense says that it is only for those situations where lethal force IS AUTHORIZED but the officer decides he wants to use a less lethal alternative.

        Yes, those situations do arise — and the public thinks they are (or should be) far more common than reality. The nut case armed with a kitchen knife is the classic “why did you have to shoot him?” that happens at least once every year somewhere in the country. Adopting this device would create a PR nightmare because the media and the public would expect that the device would live up to the manufacturer’s grandiose ideas where it would magically allow officers to stop anyone who wasn’t actively shooting without ever hurting the subject.

        If I were a lawyer I would love to see my city adopt this device.

        • Sulaco

          Possibly but the exact same thing is said now and often about Tazers and at times batons….

    • Nicks87

      Good point about the follow up shots. We train to fire no less than three shots in rapid succession, either two to the chest one to the head (mozambique) or 3 shots center mass. The minute this device gets put into the hands of officers someone is going to get plugged with a follow up in a situation that doesnt require it.

    • MIstwalker

      While many of these are valid points, you do not need to remove this before reholstering. If you watch the video, it shows that the remaining frame of the device that mounts to the slide ejects when you fire your weapon.

      Another concern might be, with the added mass to the slide, (even if it is ejected it will slow the slide’s travel) will the weapon cycle properly in all conditions?

      • JumpIf NotZero

        I wouldn’t give a second thought to mass.

        But re-read it. I’m saying you DID NOT fire the “less lethal” part and you want to reholster you lethal weapon because you have to run, you are about to get the crap beat out of you, or you need two hands.

        Everything about this product is stupid.

  • Phillip Cooper

    So basically let’s plug the barrel, then shoot.

    How is this safe?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      It doesn’t plug the barrel. It’s capturing the live round fired and projectioning the plastic. Did you read the article?

      • Phillip Cooper

        Yes I read the article. Fact remains it goes on the end of the gun and blocks the barrel. Seems pretty similar to plugging the barrel to me.

        • JumpIf NotZero

          You should let their engineering dept know.

          No one here doubts it’ll work as advertised, The real issue isn’t the function, it’s the concept.

        • Phillip Cooper

          But apparently I didn’t look closely enough at the picture. There’s an air gap between barrel and ball.
          Still seems like an absolutely idiotic device. I’m sure NYC is going to issue these next week.

  • lucusloc

    The author is a hell of a lot more forgiving of this device than I am. As far as I am concerned this is the most stupid “less lethal” option yet devised for a large number of reasons.

    For starters, almost all defensive shooters, police included, are trained to take two or more shots, this device will only capture the first round. What are the chances that the shooter will take an instinctive follow up shot?

    For officers operating in groups, what are the chances that using this device will trigger sympathetic lethal shot from other officers? It will sound exactly like a normal shot, so unless the other officers see you setting up for less lethal, how will they know?

    As the author noted, deployment seems somewhat less than safe for the user in a high stress situation.

    And that is before we get to all the possibilities for functional failures (also noted by the author) and how those may result in a less than desirable outcome.

    This idea need to die a quick death, it is stupid all the way around. . .

    • Char

      ‘It will sound exactly like a normal shot, so unless the other officers see you setting up for less lethal, how will they know?’

      You know, that makes the video make more sense. The simulated police training person yells ‘less lethal!’ twice before taking a shot; he’s doing that to alert the other police not to engage without putting these idiotic bullet condoms on their guns. Because someone yelling something in a super high-stakes situation like that could never be ignored / not heard / etc.

      Have to agree with you, this is dumb as helllll.

      • lucusloc

        The yelling is especially pointless in the example video, considering that he just took 3 shots not seconds before. Ever shoot a pistol without earpro? It makes communicating afterwards difficult. Any buddies close by will have a pretty decent handicap to understanding those instructions. Better hope you remember to yell really loud.

    • lucusloc

      Adding in an unknown here, has anyone seen these fired in real life? How does the clip on the to get ejected? Is there a chance it can get flung back into the operators face? (And why is the whole promo video CGI?)

      • Ken

        I’m assuming the motion of the ball getting carried off pulls the clip off of the slide, and then air resistance separates the ball from the clip. Another possibility is some of the gas upon firing gets between the slide face and the clip, and blasts it off.

      • Daisuke0222

        There’s a YouTube vid from a San Diego (I think) TV report showing the Alternative being fired live.

    • To answer your question the answers are 100%

      • lucusloc

        I know that, and you know that, but do the makers of this device know that. . .

  • thedonn007

    I am not a police officer, nor have I ever pretened to be one, but how is this a better option than a Tazer?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Short answer is it’s not.

      But if you wanted to debate all the times tasers haven’t worked that’s another matter.

  • Bal256

    I don’t know if I should cringe or crack up at the “simulation” at the end of the video.

  • SpazC

    Should we start praying now for the first officer indicted for not using this craptastic piece of equipment?

    Also question on the “simulation” Why does criminal #1 with the gun have no mask, but the second criminal supposedly involved in the same crime come wearing a mask armed with only a machete?

    • Char

      He thought it was Masks and Machetes Monday.

    • Sulaco

      Apparently the Ferguson Police Dept., Ya that one, is planning to use this device on the advise of Holders DOJ to make up for their “history”. What could go wrong?

  • Joshua

    So wait, the 9mm bullet traveling at about 1200(give or take) feet per second, stikes the orange ball, transfers its energy to ball, and then launches the ball at say 900 ft/s into the target……….am I getting this wrong?

    • Ken

      Conservation of momentum, not energy. Momentum simply is mass x velocity. The momentum will theoretically be equal before and after impact. Therefore, if you have a 124gr slug traveling at 1200 FPS and a 3500gr ball at rest colliding, then you will end up with a 3624gr combo of both traveling at 41 FPS. The total momentum of the system is 124×1200+3500×0 or , which is 148800 gr-ft/s.

      That’s the reason why when you shoot a block of wood with a bullet, the block of wood does not go flying with the same amount of kinetic energy (KE=mass x velocity^2) that the bullet had originally.

      Back in the day, people used to measure muzzle velocity using ballistic pendulums. A log of known mass would be suspended as a pendulum. A bullet of known mass would be fired at it. By observing the angle that the log-bullet combo travels upon impact, one could calculate the velocity that the bullet had to strike at.

  • Gecko45

    Few years back one of my teammates from RTF, an avid inventor and renown idiot savant developed similar device that had a frisbee attached to its muzzle, instead of plastic ball.
    This ingenious mechanism proved extremely useful for our local police department as they saw it as an aid for training K-9 units. Officers of both two and four legged persuasion were extremely enthusiastic about their excercises, to the point of rolling among the weeds and snarling at each other for the privilege of catching the damn thing. On one occasion two human sergerants and one malinois constable had to be peppermaced to avoid further unpleasantness. Also, one of the senior vice detectives was discovered dressing himself up and posing as an airedale terrier, which caused minor scandal. Poor man was forced to retire.
    There was also version made from circular saw, especially for municipal greenkepers, but this one did not get as much publicity and was quietly discontinued.

    • Nicks87

      A few years ago I used that same device to score a personal best on 18 holes of disc golf. Unfortunately I was banned from the course for life and arrested for discharging a firearm within city limits and public indecency.

  • Shifty Bitwise

    Has anyone seen the videos demonstrating how a knife wielding man can cover a distance of 20ft before you would have a chance to engage with a holstered weapon ? 9 times out of 10 the shooter winds up with a fatal wound.

    So, now you attach the clown nose on your weapon. ITS BRIGHT ORANGE ! It is telling/telegraphing the knife wielding man to brace for a ball-peen hammer hit as they slash away.

  • ColaBox

    The video made it even harder to take this thing seriously.

  • Full Name

    This is INSANE.

  • Mark in MI

    I get the impression that the people who came up with the simulation never bothered to watch the many youtube videos of knife vs gun.

    • Mark in MI

      Instead of the 21ft rule, we get the 67 and 3/8 ft rule.

  • B.K.

    I recall taser training. We had to get taste red, like it or not, ostensibly so that we could testify in court that we were fully aware of its “non-lethal” effects. With OC we had to get sprayed. THIS, yeah, NO, No not me.

  • Sulaco

    A masked approaching suspect with a foot long dagger is NOT a situation for use of less lethal responses! Period.

  • Don Ward

    Only sailors use condoms, baby.

    • Tassiebush

      But this will keep your gun safe from blood borne diseases…

  • john huscio

    dumbest idea since the electronic handprint gun

  • Guest
  • 2wheels

    So is this like a joke or what?
    Fire a non-lethal round and then a lethal round is immediately ready to go! Sounds great until you’ve accidentally shot someone without justification to use lethal force… Oops!

  • dan citizen

    There was a different, very similar device out previously that seemed a little better. The whole concept is nifty, but perhaps impractical.

    I foresee the span of time between using this and emptying the magazine to be the length of time the action takes to cycle.

  • shadow

    If I were a cop, I would be thinking about another job. Probably long before now.

  • Blake

    I would put it to the company making this thingy to demonstrate how it is in any way superior to e.g. a Taser or other compact less-lethal weapon.

  • joe

    How about a taser attachment on the underside of a pistol?

    • Chase Buchanan

      Oscar Grant. The cop shot and killed him accidentally, having intended to use a taser, even though the taser was on the opposite hip from the pistol. Maybe that was a freak accident outlier, but it might be bad to have the pistol and taser integrated into each other.

    • Bill

      Tasers have been attached to both rifles and shotguns

  • Chase Buchanan

    As far as I know, when police officers deploy a taser against someone dangerous, their partner is usually standing nearby, ready with a pistol. This device sort of makes it so that one person can do both, which might seem good, but which I suspect is actually bad because it’s mentally difficult to do both of those tasks at the same time.

    • Jim_Macklin

      Here in Wichita recently, a policeman tried to Taze a drunk after several calls to 911 by the drunks family members reporting he was drunk and had a knife.
      The Taser failed to have any effect. The policewoman used the M16 she was carrying to shoot the man several times.
      Disregarding the calls by the family about the drunk having a knife and threatening to kill members of the family and the social problem of a woman trying to arrest an Hispanic man, the rifle save both officers from harm.

      And yes, the family is talking about suing the city, wondering why the police shot the “man with a knife” they reported in several 911 calls.

  • Will

    OBVIOUSLY a brain fart of some politically correct moron who never walked a beat or rode in a patrol car on Friday or Saturday night, during a full moon, who simply wants to make a butt load of money from the lemming like fools that think cops have all the time in the world to make life or death decisions when the pucker factor is peaking near 2000 PSI.

    MOST STUPID CRAP I’VE SEEN IN 30 plus years as a police officer.

    If I’ve drawn the gun I feel my life is in danger. I’m NOT going to take the time to put an orange doo dad on my pistol and yell “Less lethal” twice.
    AINT NO WAY AINT NO HOW!!!!!

  • Jerrydgeek

    (1) “Tuco”, in The Good, The Bad and the Ugly: “If you’re gonna shoot, SHOOT! Don’t talk!”

    (2) Henry Fonda in Fire Creek: “any man worth shootin’ is worth killin”

    The Colonel: “Never point your gun at anything you’re not willing to destroy”.

  • noguncontrol

    i am all for new ideas, but when it comes less lethal weapons, this is probably the worst, really stupid. sorry.

    a can of pepper spray or a shotgun loaded with lead shot bean bags would be better.

  • Ken

    For private citizens, it is as stupid/illegal as firing a warning shot. If you discharge a firearm in self defense, then it better be because you feared for your life. If you discharged it as a warning or to project a less than lethal device, then you clearly did not fear for your life.

  • Tom Currie

    The most obvious potential fail is that most officers are trained to double tap – which often turns into seventeen tap in the real world.

  • Able_Dart

    I see potential. Pistol Grenades. You know, like rifle grenades!

  • Tassiebush

    Users have reported it is very uncomfortable and does nothing to prevent pregnancy or infections…

  • ghost

    How fast does that thing reload the ball? My practice shooting is two to three rounds one after the other, (private land). The trigger finger gonna do what it is trained to do.

  • 2wheels

    Quite a few rifle grenades work off the bullet trap system, it’s definitely better than the soldier having to remember to load a special blank just to fire one grenade.

  • uisconfruzed

    Lead splash back into LEO’s face?
    Too large of a mistake under fight or flight stress.
    An amblance chasers dream.

    • Sulaco

      Or how bout under the stress of the moment it triggers a double tap reflex and a JHP follows this POS down range?

  • We actually had to use that information in an officer involved shooting. The suspect had a large knife and charged a Lt. Another officer standing next to him dropped the suspect with an 870.

  • Bal256

    They claim that it is less lethal. Well, the criminal can always die of laughter.

  • Bill

    Wow. Y’all know that we’ve been using less-lethal rounds fired from actual firearms for quite a while now? Like rubber sabot slugs, buckshot, ball rounds, wooden baton rounds and others? Same principle, new technology. Whether this particular version is viable remains to be seen, but people laughed at the idea of beanbag rounds, until they got hit with one. And bean bags had growing pains and needed development to mature.

    Yeah, the guy with the knife needed to be shot, just plain shot. But one of the basic tenets of less-lethal deployment is that you ALWAYS have a backup, armed with real ammo, in case of failure or the need to use deadly force. If this turns out to work, it gives the line officer a much quicker way of deploying a less-lethal specialty impact munition, that waiting for the guy with the beanbags or rubber slogs to get there, figure out which shotgun is going to get used and so forth.

    it might just work.

    • Nicholas Chen

      The problem isnt shooting less lethal projectiles out of a firearm. The problem is you are shooting an actual bullet at someone. The only thing changing that lethal round to being non lethal is a metal ball in the path of the bullet. Sounds sketchy.

      • Bill

        I don’t know where they are in the R&D phase. I think it will be legally defensible to fire a live, lethal round into a device that is designed, purpose built and tested to render it less lethal. The lawyers will have to fight that out. People have been killed by less lethal weapons, impact munitions, chemical agents, heck even blanks. And likewise there have been cases where they failed to produce the desired result from the bad guy.

        People ALWAYS criticize new technology, there’s some law about that. It may work, it may not. I wonder how many people here know the anecdote about how the TASER was named?

  • Sulaco

    Have watched .12 ga bean bag rounds used to NO effect against a wack job with a katana sword in Seattle, flinched a little but didn’t even back up. Can’t think a pistol power round would do much better in the real world.

    • Don Ward

      Hey, I remember sword guy. Good times. Good times.

      • Sulaco

        Only in Seattle, (well maybe Bazerkly) a guy with a sword standing on a street corner in broad day light, for nearly 9 hours. Cops tried everything except a gun, bean bags (lots of them), fire hoses, chem sprays and waiting for him to get hypothermic with the sunset!! Locked down the city, stopped traffic from going down town until late at night if memory serves. Had citizens stop and ask if they could shoot the bas(*&(d. Seattle command staff/jerk mayor would not even allow for the contingency if he decided to charge the cops with the sword. Lots of pop corn and adult beverages consumed that day for us watching off duty…

        • Bill

          THAT incident is a one-off. No device or technique works 100% of the time. EDPs and the drunk/drugged may not respond as expected. I have lost count of the number of times’ I’ve seen specialty impact munitions deployed and got the desired effect.

          Watch the test on Johnny Knoxville, if nothing else.

          And I don’t know here you got the tidbit about the command staff and mayor, but there were about 50 Seattle cops and area deputies, including SWAT teams ready to shoot the guy if it came to that.

          • Sulaco

            Yes that was a “one of” but the results are not one of, I forget the
            number of times Pep spray and Tasers failed and we had to go hands on, sometimes with the suspect dyeing anyway of excited delirium in the end. That “one of’ was symptomatic of the problem with current tech “less lethal”. As to the info? Senior Sgt who was given a stern talking to by the on scene commander about what he could and couldn’t do. Was mostly the reason most Deps and WSP left early they got tired of dealing with SPD command staff Bs.

          • Bill

            Huh? EVERTHING fails is some situation. So it took 9 hours to resolve the situation. Do we kill mentally ill people just to keep the OT down?

            There are a zillion studies out there on the effectiveness of OC and ECDs. the more they are used, the more opportunities there are for unintended outcomes, such as the EDP who was Tazed, fell from a height, and died from head injuries. But both beat the alternative, which was typically a 6-cell Maglite to the bean.

            One of the problems in the LE field is that we typically don’t track successful outcomes, versus bad outcomes. Good agencies with rigorous accountability programs should be able to tell you how many Taser deployments they’ve done, and what the outcomes were. likewise with beanbags and specialty impact munitions like this proposed device.

          • Sulaco

            He was using a deadly weapon and threatening the public. PC politics dominated because of his race and continued the threat to the public. And “We” hide the failures and try to silence those that want to bring it up. Last comment here getting into politics…

  • Alex Nicolin

    It will be pretty lethal in that form too. Alloy is hard and will break ribs and crack skulls if fired at people.

  • ghost

    Quit hiring people that can not learn the route for elevators might help.

  • Daisuke0222

    I think you meant to say “judicious”, not “judicial”…

  • Leigh Rich

    The Officer would not have had time to put it on his gun after tussling with the thug at Ferguson. Seems the follow up shot would be a live round any way. The criminals just need to learn to follow instructions.

  • Sulaco

    We are not talking about killing when you can, we are talking about the tech and how it is reported. It is not on a level where it is reported to be and the supposed level of it is being used against cops in court.

  • William M Butler, MSG USA ret

    So, you all. How many folks have you shot? Your 1 shot, 2 shot, 3 shot theory don’t mean squat. Please tell all of us Newbies, how did it feel to shoot a real person! Did your theory really work? You bunch of ” mall ninjas.

  • Mark_KTO

    I give it 90 days, 180 at the extreme outside, after this is deployed to working cops, before somebody gets “less lethaled” into a grave with this thing.

    Then the lawsuits will fly.

  • Mark_KTO

    “There is a training drill taught in police schools and to civilian handgun carriers”

    Police officers ARE civilian handgun carriers.