Interesting 5.7 Ammo

PB030013_zpse11c347b

And not only interesting looking, but apparently also a little controversial right now. Thanks to Jess for sending this link to a post on the International Ammunition Association website:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16450

I have a friend that Loves (with capital “L”) his FN Five-seveN, even despite the cost to shoot it. I’ll admit, some of the specs on the round are impressive. What is really interesting to me is the shape of the bullet in the above thread, and what the purpose of that shape is. There is a good photo of the bullet after passing through a IIIa vest.

Looking at the two rounds side by side, they are certainly close, and the Vanguard bullet is nearly identical to an early version of the Elite.

I’m sure we have some 5.7 fans here. What do you like about the platform? Has anyone shot either of these rounds?



Tom is a former Navy Corpsman that spent some time bumbling around the deserts of Iraq with a Marine Recon unit, kicking in tent flaps and harassing sheep. Prior to that he was a paramedic somewhere in DFW, also doing some Executive Protection work between shifts. Now that those exciting days are behind him, he has embraced his inner โ€œWarrior Hippieโ€ and assaults 14er in his sandals and beard, or engages in rucking adventure challenges while consuming craft beer. To fund these adventures, he writes medical software and builds websites and mobile apps. His latest venture is as one of the founders of IronSights.com; a search engine for all things gun related. He hopes that his posts will help you find solid gear that will survive whatever you can throw at it–he is known (in certain circles) for his curse…ahem, ability…to find the breaking point of anything.


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  • BattleshipGrey

    Very interesting. I know I’d seen some of the European sectioned projectiles before (pics anyway), but that was quite some time ago.
    Also interesting that there could be a potential lawsuit based on what Panzermk2 was saying in the thread, claiming the original design/concept. His results looked convincing. I didn’t have time to watch the vids though. Panzermk2’s projectiles look a little more robust than these.

  • noob

    what happens if the tip breaks off in the barrel during firing? is that possible?

    • joe schemo

      I would worry more about each section breaking off during firing.

      • Dan

        Or the tip being bent from poor handling or hitting the feed ramp wrong (if possible).

      • Slvrwrx

        I’ve fired quite a bit of this ammo, and no issues. This is pretty hard copper.

    • JSmath

      They would eventually spew out the barrel in a tumbling fashion, with significantly less lethal results.

      • noob

        so we have essentially invented a very small shotgun?

        • Zebra Dun

          “BRILLIANT!”

    • valorius

      No

  • AUGrad06

    I wonder if it would effect the cycling of the firearm.

    • valorius

      Nope

  • noob

    a good time to change manufacturing technologies – away from lathing individual projectiles and towards something mass production friendly like metal injection moulding or 3d metal printing.

    • Giolli Joker

      If you think that 3D metal printing is mass production friendly, my friend, you’re completely wrong.
      And it’s so far way more expensive than machining…

      • noob

        my only experience is with plastic 3d printing (fused material deposition. I own a bunch of printers). the plastic printers themselves are slow individually, but you can print more printers, and then run them unsupervised in parallel.

        that’s where your mass production comes in.

        It’s not like running an end mill or a casting mould where you punch out a 60 parts a minute. rather you’d start a huge number of machines, wait 24 hours and get a huge number of parts.

        it’s not cheap initially, but printing your own printers brings the cost down.

        • Giolli Joker

          Interesting experience!
          However investment in DMLS is a couple of orders of magnitude higher than plastic FMD and much more energy hungry.
          Thinking of doing something that can be done relatively easily by machining on a lathe by DMLS… is kinda crazy. ๐Ÿ™‚
          The problem here is that bullets, by nature, have to be cheap, especially pistol bullets, and machining (however cheaper than DMLS) is more expensive and time consuming than the traditional approaches (casting, swaging) used for mass production… And the demand for similar bullets will never reach levels to justify investments in more lathes to enable mass economies.
          It’s just a highly specialized niche, similar to some sniper/long range bullets, where the shooter is more likely to be willing to pay more.
          Of course, if Barnes was to buy the design and give it a go to mass marketing…
          (printing your own printers? tell me more ๐Ÿ˜‰ )

          • noob

            hmm. disquis ate my posts twice!

            well here it is again this time without links to hope that it takes.

            I got a flashforge creator which is a cheap chinese copy of a makerbot replicator.

            filament is usually $60 per 1kg reel of abs but my buddy stephen at flythinking on aliexpress sold me 12kg at $12 per kg.

            reprap is the self replicating prototyper. all the Defcad defense distributed designs are optimised for reprap as the lowest common denominator printer.

            there are a number of models but I chose the mendel because it’s most mature. I’ll branch out into more reprap types as I gain confidence.

            repraps feature a parts list that is 60% to 70% 3d printed parts.

            these parts cost pennies to print and can be sold for hundreds of dollars on ebay once you’ve printed them.

            the “vitamins” (the bits you can’t print and would have to solder together from commercially available small components) are available on aliexpress. just search for reprap.

            vitamin parts kits can be bought for a few hundred dollars, add the 3d printed parts and sold as complete unassembled kits for $600.

            fully assembled and tested printers start at $1200.

            to run your printer, beyond filament and the printer iteself
            1) kapton tape. I got mine from the 3d printer superstore. sometimes removing the tape from the build surface is the only way to free the part.
            2) jug of acetone
            3) glass jar to dissolve abs scraps in acetone to make a glue to spread on the build surface
            4) paint brush
            5) paint scraper
            6) canned air to cool the part. cool parts pop off the build surface.

  • JSmath

    Armor penetration.

    They basically act like a self-driving nail – tip section hits, center and back section “hammer” forward, and the tip pokes through.

  • JSmath

    Armor penetration.

    The tip pokes through the armor, and where a normal bullet would normally get caught up in the armor weave, these designs use the segmented sections to deliberately get caught and let the tip snap off and drive forward.

    I originally said it was like a hammer/nail effect, but that ain’t right.

    • valorius

      The entire t6 projectile will penetrate about 100 layers of kevlar.

      • Slvrwrx

        Long time no see Valorius

        • valorius

          And to you, my friend. Hope you are well.

          • Slvrwrx

            Still blowing apart Kevlar over here with my FSN

          • valorius

            No one does it better. ๐Ÿ˜‰

            Sold my five seven and all the ammo during the height of the obama gun ban scare and shortage.

            Made a 400% profit. ๐Ÿ™‚

            I have an itch for an ar-57 now though. Lol

  • noguncontrol

    we need more innovation like this!!

  • Crash Pro

    I have two Five-Sevens, the MasterPiece Arms pistol, a 12″ AR57 and a PS90, so needless to say I Love the round! My Five-Seven MK2 is my daily carry loaded with either the T6 mentioned above or SS198LF. The T6 is pointy as hell! It’s like an ice pick. Despite the way it looks, they are actually very tough bullets. There are plenty of YouTube videos and the bullet doesn’t actually separate unless it goes through very dense medium such as clay. In gel, the front tip will bend, then start to tumble like the other HP 5.7 ammo. The difference is now it has the bent tip in the back acting like a fin and causes it to keep tumbling. Very impressive! Problem is hard to get and very expensive.

    • noob

      that’s unexpected – the alloy must be very carefully chosen for it to bend and stay together under those forces.

  • Michael R. Zupcak

    Are those solid copper? Because if they are copper, they don’t fall under the AP handgun ammo law. If they’re brass, they do.

    • valorius

      The t6 is solid copper.

  • Patrick Mingle

    And considering the P90 has 50 round mags and the Five Seven has 20 rounders I think you can spare it.

  • MrApple

    It looks like there could be some feeding issues with this round.

    • Zebra Dun

      Yup, My take also, what if, you bent the tip slightly before or during magazine loading?

      • MrApple

        I’m more concerned with the empty space on the round catching on the magazine, the feed ramp, or on some other area of the firearm.

        • Slvrwrx

          I’ve yet to have a feeding issue with these.

          • MrApple

            Well there you go. I have no experience to speak of with this caliber. It just isn’t generally my cup of tea. If I can’t shoot it out of a Glock, 12 gauge shotgun, an AR, or an AK then I don’t have that much experience with it.

          • Slvrwrx

            I’ve wanted the company for some time (EA) to loads these in 5.56. I’m very interested in what this type of bullet can do at 3600+ fps

          • MrApple

            That would be interesting to see, especially in some ballistic gel.

  • Zebra Dun

    I’d say in my humble novice level the rounds are either frangible or used as ear plugs.
    I’ve seen some High pressure paint guns use a needle valve like this.

  • Zebra Dun

    Amazing! What goes through and through becomes a Caltrop.