Brazilian Weapon Woes Continue

2014-11-13 00_38_04-Greenshot capture form

We blogged about Brazilian gun manufacturer Taurus’s recall of almost one hundred thousand pistols a year ago, but apparently the problems with Taurus weapons have not stopped since nor are they limited only to the 24/7 DS model then recalled. Weaponsman has blogged about the aggregate problems with the weapons:

These Brazilian fuzz are not loving their nation’s home-grown small arms.

The particular model handgun the PM have had trouble with appears similar to the older 24/7 replaced in exports to the USA by the 24/7 Pro. But all these QC problems (and they’re not the only Taurus QC problems you’ll hear about, if you put your ear to the ground) undermine the absolutely critical confidence an officer must have in his or her firearms.

The PMESP (its Portuguese acronym) has to pick something from the Taurus factory; they’re the main small arms manufacturer in Brazil. The PMESP also uses the CT-30 carbine in .40, replacing older Taurus FAMAE .40 SMGs, but as we’ve just seen, they’re not above shipping some turkeys in those product lines, too. Some other states’ police use PM-12S submachine guns made by Taurus under Beretta license; our personal experience with that specific weapon, and with Taurus’s discontinued Beretta clones, is positive. (The PM-12 is an outstanding 3rd Generation SMG, which came too late to achieve great market success, and the Taurus ones we’ve handled and shot have equalled or surpassed their Italian cousins).

Below are some quotes from commenters on a news article, who claim to be officers at the Military Police Agency of São Paulo:


“Helio” says:

I put it on safe — I was chasing a drug dealer and jumped a fence, the safed gun fired inside the holster and the round hit the ground. I do not trust the 24/7 nor any Taurus. I have one because I have to have it, but I use my personal weapon at work.

“ZANCS” says:

In a shooting instructors training course at PMESP, the Taurus 24/7 pistol that I used began to burst when releasing the trigger. I don’t trust Taurus. I think, if Glock is not possible, they should try IMBEL because the new rifle that came [from IMBEL] seemed to be much more reliable, better than CT.30 and TAURUS .40.

“Helio” again:

I have a [CZ] SP-01 to use in service, and I will tell you, that gun, never chokes, even after 40 shots in sequence, perfect grip and precision.

“Igor” says:

Blame it on the monopoly policy, but we also have to remember that the EB is to blame in the office, through ordinances that hinder the importation of firearms, even by police.

And “Daniel” posted two videos.

Sorry, but does anyone remember this problem with the Taurus too?

“Chico” says:


 

I highly recommend readers click through and view some of the videos over at Weaponsman, they are really something. These sorts of malfunctions are as close to “worst nightmare” levels as they can get, without being catastrophic.

Stay safe, all.



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • andrey kireev

    Well…Maybe It’s a good thing that I spent more money and got something else instead !

  • Nicks87

    Sounds like Taurus needs to stick to making cheap knock-offs of proven designs instead of trying to make their own stuff.

  • USMC03Vet

    #TaurusThings

    I about fell out of my chair when the SMG went off like that.

  • Al

    Taurus…lol. They’ve always been junk.

    • Ed

      Much like Norinco want a real classy band name pistol buy the real thing.

      • john huscio

        Norinco was light years better than Taurus…..

      • joe schemo

        Totally wrong. I trust my norinco with my life. It is 100% trustworthy. Steel is super strong more than any other 1911 i have fired. it Eats crap ammo like blazer alum case that would jam my other 1911s!

      • Nicks87

        I heard Norinco made some pretty good AK variants.

      • Kivaari

        Norinco will produce a gun to the quality the customer demands. I’ve had Norincos’ that were junk. I’ve had many that were exceptional. In looking at PAVN Model 20, a copy of the TT33 7.62x25mm pistol, the M20 had quality exceeding commercial standards in the US. Same with the PM “Makarov” 9x18mm, I had ones that were finely finished, and others that were headed to Africa in some kind of coffee-arms trade. Both the coffee and the pistols were terrible. There is very much you get what you pay for.

    • TodC

      Back in the 80s, Taurus was pretty good. They made Smith revolver clones and Beretta 92 clones that were reliable, accurate, and well built.

      • jcitizen

        I can attest to that as well, my 1990 Taurus clone looked better and shot better than the Beretta! But it looks like Taurus is going the way of Llama now.

  • Zachary marrs

    Inb4 all the Taurus fans come in and say “well muh revolver i got back in 83 ain’t ever jammed! All the people who talk bad about Taurus have never shot one”

    • wetcorps

      This works with just about every gun ever though 🙂

      • FourString

        Dude.. Taurus fanboys are the most rabid…. it doesn’t even make sense..

        • Havok

          I think you’re forgetting about HiPoint Fanboys……

          • john huscio

            At least hipoint provides you with halfway decent value for the price and they are made here so customer service should be at the very least, better doveloped and more responsive than Taurus…

          • Tim Pearce

            A two week turnaround (industry average is 6 weeks) and totally friendly phone reps are all I’ve ever experienced from Taurus in years of selling guns and having a few need to go back. IME, their quality control seems to come and go.
            With the one gun I personally have had to send back, there wasn’t even the usual expectation of the gun owner or dealer paying for shipping. They sent a FedEx guy to my door, who had a label ready. All I had to do was provide a box and write some stuff on the label. The gun came back flawless in a week and a half.

          • Kivaari

            When I still was in the business, it was frustrating to just get a person to answer the phone. I know dealers that simply will not order Taurus handguns. Show up trying to trade a Taurus into a dealer, and they politely say they wont take them in trade. Even NIB revolvers, are simply worthless when doing a trade.

    • Kivaari

      I’ve used m on and off for 40 years. Taurus is junk. Like a broken clock, it’s right two times a day. That said, I had issues with Beretta, S&W, Colt, Ruger, Unique, FN, AMT, and other assorted junk. There are many low quality makers in the world.

  • WPZ

    No, there really is a wider range of Taurus experiences.
    I have a mid-Nineties PT92C that I bought as a cheap range gun and it’s fired many thousands of rounds of my worst 9mm reloads with phenomenal reliability.
    It’s so good I’d use it for personal protection without a qualm.
    Also just traded off a mid-Eighties Model 94, blue 3″ barrel nine-shot .22 that was my work kit gun- shot numerous squirrels in the line of work- that not only operated perfectly but actually had a very nice finish not far behind contemporary Smiths.

    That said, pretty nearly all of the other Tauri I’ve been exposed to have been fair-to-fairly-bad.
    The 92 clones do seem to be their best effort, though.

    • Nicks87

      Is it “Tauri” or “Tauruses” both sound ricidulous so maybe it’s just best not to talk of more than one at a time

  • Vhyrus

    So… you’re saying if I want a submachine gun, I should just buy a taurus carbine. Got it!

  • DiverEngrSL17K

    Great articles, Weaponsman — thank you once again. This seems to only re-affirm prior assumptions that Taurus weaponry can be a mixed bag, with some guns being outstanding while others are simply mediocre. The fact that this variation sometimes extends into single model types depending on year and even individual batch of manufacture greatly complicates the issue for end users who want a good Taurus.

    All this would also point towards inconsistencies in the QA / QC process during manufacturing. Could this be the result of QA / QC and production-line management variations from one manufacturing facility to the next? I am not sure how many such factories exist in Brazil under the Taurus name, so I am just putting forth this suggestion as a feeler ( I might be entirely off-track for all I know ).

    Can any of our enlightened and knowledgeable Brazilian readers confirm or deny this? You would be the ones who probably know best. Thanks very much in advance to all concerned.

    • sianmink

      That’s pretty much been my experience. You’ll get a good one, you’ll get one with a few cosmetic problems, or you’ll get a clunker, and you never know till you’ve put a few hundred through it.

  • Franciscomv

    Taurus handguns are quite popular here in Argentina, mostly because they are relatively affordable and because there very, very few other options on our market (especially when it comes to revolvers).

    They built their reputation on their Beretta 92 clones which actually worked quite well. A mate of mine used one for years and it never failed. The 24/7 however, has been plagued with issues. Nothing as dangerous as what these Brazilian policemen are reporting, though.

    I purchased a Taurus revolver a few years back, the frame cracked after shooting half a box of .45 Colt ammo (commercial cowboy action loads, mild as they can get!). That was enough for me. I’ve stuck with Ruger and S&W for my revolver needs since then, even if they’re expensive and hard to find here.

  • jpcmt

    PMESP probably means “Policia Militar Exército de São Paulo”. I lived in Campinas (an hour north of SP) and the police there are PMEC. All cops are military police. All cops in Brazil are yahoo cowboys with ego trips. Its scary when poor people get a little ‘authority’ over their friends and neighbors. That’s why they don’t get nice things..they get taurus guns.

  • DIR911911 .

    I carry a pt145 on a regular basis , haven’t had any problems from it with about 6-800 rounds through it. but have to say it might be a while before I buy any of their newer guns.

    • Tim Pearce

      Yeah, I sell guns for a living, and I find that the newer stuff seems to have a few more corners cut than before. Granted, that goes for Sig, too.

  • john huscio

    Remember when Taurus submitted the OSS version of this POS for the first incarnation of the joint combat pistol program? Was that their idea of a joke?

    • Tim Pearce

      Remember when Colt sold the Marines a 1911 whose frame would crack in as little as 12,000 rounds? Yeah, just happened recently. The military is in the habit of buying crap. Taurus, at least, probably wouldn’t have had to cheapen the gun any.

  • Tinkerer

    Don’t mind me, just a small fact-stating. The CT-30 is chambered in .30 Carbine, not in .40. OK, I’m done, carry on.

  • kingghidorah

    My Uncle drove a Taurus and it was nothing but trouble. Two head gaskets and a transmission, total junk.

  • RaunchyDawg

    I have 2 24/7 g2 pistols and they both run flawlessly. I’m also in the market for an OSS. If you don’t like them, don’t buy them, makes them cheaper for me. 🙂

  • Mazryonh

    What’s the general consensus for why Taurus has had to cut this many corners with regards to their products? Putting out stuff that fails when you need it most certainly doesn’t do anything to resolve the problem of flagging sales, and then you have the problem of your reputation tanking.

  • Darrell Allen

    I own 3 Taurus pistols purchased in Texas in the last 5-10 years and I love them. The Judge: love it so much I’m buying another one just so I can open carry on Texas the right way. It is particular about what brand of ammo you load it up with. The 380 TCP: My favorite conceal carry. Never had 1 single problem with it. I have 5 other slim 380s and this is my favorite over the Keltec and the Ruger LCP and the Smith and Wesson. Taurus Slim 9: Def my favorite carry everyday 9mm. When someone says they have a gun and its crappy, that’s really a personal point. I hate Glocks and will never buy one but that doesn’t mean everything about that company is crap. Plus if a company can score a contract where they supply overpriced sub-perfect scraps over and over again and again without consequence, then plenty of other blogs would say that’s an exceptional business model – ever heard of the Colt M16? I like all my Tauruses well enough to keep looking at their guns when I’m in the mood to buy again. True, I don’t own anything listed in this article.