Machine Pistols On Trial: How Viable Are They?

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Disclaimer: For the purpose of this article, the term “machine pistol” refers to fully automatic conventionally laid out handguns, not submachine guns, PDWs, or obscenely large pistol-like firearms such as M10s. Also, for video, scroll to the bottom.

Machine pistols have been around for about 100 years. As soon as engineers embraced semi-automatic handguns as a new category of small arm, they realized that their mechanisms could easily be adapted to fire fully automatically. Early examples include converted Lugers, Steyr M1912s, and of course the Mauser M712 “Schnellfeuer”. That said, after this period of experimentation small arms development seemed to ignore this niche until the latter half of the 20th century when we were introduced to pistols like the VP70 and Beretta 93r, both of which fired three-round-bursts. In the 1980s Glock introduced the model 18, which was essentially their model 17 with a selector with positions for full and semi automatic fire.

All in all, there have not been many machine pistols developed relative to most other firearm subcategories, and the answer as to why seems pretty simple; They don’t really serve a purpose that any other firearm wouldn’t be better suited to.

In fact, Gunsite ignored machine pistols when it was founded in 1976. The staff said machine pistols are “a slob’s weapon, useful only by half-trained or poorly motivated troops” which is pretty damn harsh criticism if you ask me.

So in the name of scientific testing I decided to convert a police trade-in Glock 17 to full auto and see for myself if machine pistols are as difficult to use and as useless as many have said. Mind you, I am a federally licensed manufacturer of title II firearms. Remember, without proper licensing this is a felony.

So the host is pretty unremarkable:

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This switch on the rear allows the gun to fire in either semi or fully automatic:

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This is where the voodoo magic takes place:

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So it was time to hit the range with this contraption.

I have been shooting and collecting machine guns for a long time, but I have only shot one other fully automatic pistol. I was not quite sure what to expect so I braced for impact:

1

It was not as difficult to control as I thought:

2

In fact I was pleasantly surprised. At 7 yards I landed 15 out of 17 rounds on the target with my first ever mag dump:

3

9

15 out of 17

Next was the same 17 round burst at 10 yards:

4

This made a big difference. I only landed 10 out of the 17.

10

10 out of 17.

Next up was my collegue and our very own writer Nathaniel F. at 10 yards where he hit 8 out of 17:

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11

8 out of 17.

After this we just started going crazy trying to improve our techniques and shooting stances.

The findings were that with shorts bursts, you could get great center mass hits every time. Also, windage is not effected nearly as much as elevation:

5

12

I also brought out an M712 pistol to test with the Glock. We both shot and enjoyed it, but it was more difficult to control due to the high bore axis:

7

At days end, our stances and hit probabilities had both improved greatly:

13

So what does all this mean?

Well Nathaniel is an enthusiast when is it comes to small arms development and I asked for his commentary:

“The modified dealer sample Glock 17 was certainly a handful to shoot, however it seems as though a user who trained often and consistently with it could gain enough trigger discipline and control to be effective to maybe 15 yards using short bursts of fire. Contrary to my expectations, the modified Glock 17 does not seem useless as a practical tool, though perhaps it doesn’t stand out in anti-terrorist or personal protection roles against other weapons like the P90 or MP7. For well-trained personnel in the line of duty where there is concern over suicide bombings, but where a low profile must still be maintained, it does seem like the modified Glock 17/Glock 18 might be an appropriate choice. The fully automatic Glock does enjoy the advantage over other weapons such as the Beretta 93R or MP7 of being readily modified on the factory floor from standard production pistols, which reduces the cost of what would otherwise be a limited production item. The two most obvious improvements I would make are the addition of a folding shoulder stock and an integrated 3 round burst setting.”

So we both agreed that machine pistols serve such a specialized role that they have been understandably ignored (for the most part) by arms manufacturers.

You risk a lot of collateral damage with one of these, so they are not particularly suited for police work, home defense, or concealed carry. However there are a few points I believe a machine pistol shines brightly:

  • When defending a VIP with a desire to downplay how armed the protectors are
  • Potentially requiring offensive capabilities with a need to downplay a security presence
  • Assassination: This is not a legitimate use, but damn if a machine pistol is not suitable for it

I do not believe Gunsite was wrong when they decided against teaching how to use machine pistols. I had to think hard about when such a firearm would be useful, and it really is a head scratcher. As a whole they have been commercial failures and there is a reason that you do not see many in official use.

Regardless of this conclusion, here is a video of myself and some of the hooligans I regularly associate with shooting this gun. For Science.



Alex C.

Alex is a Senior Writer for The Firearm Blog and Director of TFBTV.


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  • LT

    I know some entry teams (LE) use a machine pistol for the shield man – he only gets one hand free to use a weapon, so the choice is pistol or machine pistol. The Glock 18 and Steyr TMP are the ones I’ve heard considered.

    • iowaclass

      Maybe a stun grenade would be a better choice. Good for throwing into baby cribs.

      • Nicks87

        Some teams have been throwing them outside the residence opposite of the side they are going to make entry… Oops I might have said too much. Criminals, disregard what I just typed ;).

    • Nicks87

      I’ve never heard of that. It sounds irresponsible and would be a huge liability. Any Dept that would do that is just asking for a lawsuit.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Agreed. Sounds like some Call Of Duty fantasy stuff right there. I’m going to say that’s entirely BS until there is some source posted up.

        Police with Steyr TMP full auto for one hand use? Yea… Just wanted to make sure that’s what I read!

        • Maiek Wagu

          LOL!!!

          • SP mclaughlin

            ITS A SHIELD

        • ghost

          jump good call. And I do not agree with you much. My reaction was , WTF??? A full auto pistol? Yeah, I really want one of those.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Bigger concern to me is 11 people clicked UP on that obvious nonsense :/

        • Nicks87

          Yep, ballistic shields weigh like 50lbs. Good luck carrying one and aiming a pistol (let alone a full auto pistol) at the same time. A riot shield would be pointless in a situation where you expect to meet an armed subject because they dont stop bullets.

    • Wetcoaster

      I have to wonder how effectively they can handle the recoil if they are trying to fire it while holding the shield in the other hand.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Probably super well because it doesn’t happen.

    • Patrick R

      Hey bro, Call of Duty isn’t real life.

  • sianmink

    Look at that poor abused plastic rear dovetail protector though.

  • ph43drus

    Hey, That is the range I sometimes go to. I really like the way they remodeled it.

  • Lance

    Id Say apart from protective personel and body guards PDWs and Assault Rifles really killed the need for machine pistols before they really became popular. Though A Glock 18 or Beretta M93 would be fun to shoot.

  • Zachary marrs

    Kinda stopped being relevant as soon as they made the m1 carbine full auto.

    The need for machine pistols and sub guns is almost 0, especially since sbr’s are more popular than ever

    • noguncontrol

      0 only when outdoors, indoors, sub guns still beat sbrs and pdws, its the noise and muzzle blast factor.

      • Zachary marrs

        This isn’t about sub guns, this is over machine pistols, two different things

  • iksnilol

    Seems to me if you made it heavier and with a lower bore axis it would be easier to control. Something like a CZ SP-01 which has both a lower bore axis and a heavier (steel) frame would be easier to control on full auto.

    • I agree wholeheartedly.

      • noob

        what’s your thoughts on the center axis relock system for controlling recoil? did you try it with this full auto glock?

    • mosinman

      don’t forget a compensator!

      • iksnilol

        I prefer suppressors but, sure, if it’s your thing then go for it.

        • mosinman

          it’s much easier to acquire a compensator although a silencer would be good too. i just figure for the interest of conceal-ability a compensator would help control muzzle rise while not significantly adding to the length of the weapon.

          • If you have the means to procure a machine pistol then you have the means to precure a suppressor.

          • mosinman

            yeah you’re right. i’m use to owning regular pistols so that slipped my mind

    • SP mclaughlin

      Technically already been done since 1992 (though not the modern SP-01):

      • iksnilol

        I know. Wonder why they haven’t made a modern version of it. Should be controllable, especially if you use a foregrip and/or a suppressor.

  • BryanS

    Having shot similar (ask Nicolas C for photos and video) I can say they are a real handful, and they suck mags dry faster than you can think.

  • echelon

    Answer, which is the same answer to “why do people hang nuts off the back of their trucks”, is simple: because they can.

    I don’t see how it would not be well suited to home defense…you had an incredible hit rate on a man-sized target at 7 yards…wonder what that would’ve looked like at 3 yards or 1 yard? It’s no different than the argument of why someone would use a short barreled AR “pistol” with a 30rd mag over a shotgun or pistol for home defense. A full auto Glock 18 with a 33rd mag in a house would be devastating to a gang of invaders.

    Should merely be personal preference and choice and completely unregulated. If I accidentally shoot or maim someone with a single shot break-open .22 or a hammer am I less culpable for negligence than if I were using a machine pistol?

    • Zachary marrs

      He was on a well lit range, with earpro, shooting a piece of paper

      Thats quite a bit different than a home invasion

      Unless the ner’ do wells are politely lined up for you to mow down, full auto is a waste of ammo

      • echelon

        Says you. Who are you to tell me what I do or do not need? Based on your perception that the bad guys must obviously be lined up or that full auto is a waste of ammo?

        You’ve illustrated my point nicely.

        The thrust of the argument being made and supported by you is that “X” isn’t really needed, in this case “X” being full auto in a pistol.

        Now cue politician, demanding mom, etc:

        “A magazine holding more than 10 rounds isn’t really needed.”

        “A semi-automatic firearm isn’t really needed.”

        “A shoulder thing that goes up is not really needed.”

        Seems to me this kind of thinking leads to inanimate amoral objects getting needlessly banned based on a rather subjective and personal perspective or feeling…

        • Zachary marrs

          I never said you do or do not need it.

          Ive had the pleasure of shooting a g17 w/ the auto sear, and even after i got the hang of it, it was still flinging ammo all over, and magazines disappear FAST.

          Its not ideal for home defense, thats all im saying, so calm down

          • echelon

            Why would having a FA machine pistol for HD necessitate that I spray and pray and dump the entire mag? Furthermore if I were able to choose a machine pistol for HD use it would make logical sense that I would train and practice with it.

            Based on the facts and evidence displayed in the article saying that it’s not good for HD use seems to be contrary to that evidence. At 7 yards in it could be most effective.

            And if it could be useful for protecting “VIPs” with a briefcase chained to their wrist or something then how could it not be useful for protecting my VIPs (wife, kids, etc) in my house?

            Just seems disingenuous to me.

          • Zachary marrs

            You know what the military uses full auto for?

            Suppressive fire so other units can flank the threat.

            Vip protection? Are you joking?

            Have you even shot one of these full auto? It is much less accurate than semi auto, i mean a LOT less, around 5x bigger groups, in fact.

            Look back at my first comment, he was on a well lit range, ear/eye pro, shooting at a piece of paper rhats is not moving.

            Are these the kind of things invading your home?

          • echelon

            I’m just responding to you responding to me who was responding to the author’s points in the article.

            From said article:

            “In fact I was pleasantly surprised. At 7 yards I landed 15 out of 17 rounds on the target with my first ever mag dump:”

            I’m not saying that doing a full mag dump in your house is wise or necessary. Doesn’t mean I may or may not *need* or want FA. What if I need to lay down suppressive fire while my wife flanks the bad guys, hm?

            “You risk a lot of collateral damage with one of these, so they are
            not particularly suited for police work, home defense, or concealed
            carry. However there are a few points I believe a machine pistol shines
            brightly:

            When defending a VIP with a desire to downplay how armed the protectors are

            Potentially requiring offensive capabilities with a need to downplay a security presence

            Assassination: This is not a legitimate use, but damn if a machine pistol is not suitable for it”

            I’m not the one who brought up “VIP” protection as a legitimate use, the author of the article is. I’m merely saying that if in one breath you say a machine pistol isn’t good for home defense and then in the next you are saying that it can be useful for VIP protection then I think we have some logical inconsistencies here.

            If I mistook the spirit of your first reply, I apologize. I just get a little agitated when people on the internet use hypothetical reasons why something is or is not ideal and try to project that out as a legitimate reason why we don’t use that item or why it’s okay that that thing is banned or whatever.

          • Zachary marrs

            Thats all we are saying, I’d say the same if someone asked if a musket is good for HD

            As for suppressive fire, how big is your house?

          • echelon

            That’s the point isn’t it?

            How do you know what the size of someone’s house is? Maybe they live in a rural area. Maybe they live in an apartment. Maybe, maybe, maybe, ad infinitum. All these hypotheticals abounding and the trite comment we get from the article is: full auto handguns suck and are useless.

            This actually flies in the face of the data that was supplied! If someone says hey a musket sucks for HD then they can at least back up that argument with factual data.

            It’s also more genuine to say that the reason that more companies don’t produce machine pistols is due to spurious government regulations moreso than any real or perceived deficiency in the arm itself.

            Muskets, as you say, are pretty much useless in this day and age compared to other modern designs, yet one can easily go and purchase a brand new model from various companies…

            Along those same lines do you not think that if the restrictions on FA were lifted tomorrow that companies wouldn’t immediately begin producing a FA variant of basically every item in their catalog?

          • Zachary marrs

            The “data”?

            He was on a well lit range, fully awake, shooting a piece of paper

            IE; NOT A HOME INVADER

          • Jesse

            I don’t have any need/use for one…Buckshot works if I need to kill a large area.

        • nadnerbus

          I think you are confusing practical uselessness with a desire to see them banned. Personally I agree with you that they should be legal to own regardless of practicality. But I still don’t think they would make a particularly good home defense weapon. Unless maybe you could mount a stock kit and a suppressor to it.

          • Zachary marrs

            Id love to have one of those endo kits

          • echelon

            I’m not confusing anything. I’m pointed out the inherent hypocrisy in that line of thinking from a philosophical standpoint.

            If someone has the opinion that they are practically useless that is fine. We can agree to disagree. And if your reasoning is that they are not ideal for x,y,z situations then fine. But inevitably this line of reasoning is taken to it’s logical end in the political and judicial realms and then it gets used to make onerous “laws”.

            “I don’t think so and so should have X for Y reason. So I’m going to draft a bill so we can make a law prohibiting possession and use of X. We have to do something. For the kids.”

            Just like the endless phantom “if you OC you’ll get killed by bad guys” argument I think that projecting what will or will not work in a hypothetical situation is foolish and best and fatally dangerous at worst.

            I can write fictional stories all day with different outcomes. Moral of all the stories is that anything that can happen will happen. The choices we make in firearms and other safety equipment, training, etc. is all just us mitigating risk based on our best analysis.

            In a truly free society stocked, integrally suppressed machine pistols would probably be ubiquitous or very common at the least.

          • Zachary marrs

            All we are saying is that it’s not ideal

            Did you hear me?

            IT’S NOT IDEAL

          • echelon

            I represent the other side. I’m saying it is ideal.

            If I truly have the right to bear arms then I should have the right to bear any arm that I believe I need to defend myself and others. If I ever use that firearm to murder, maim or otherwise injure and innocent then I should be fully prosecuted under the fullest extent of the law. It does not matter whether that arm is a blunderbuss or a minigun.

            Aside from that, why should anyone else care?

          • Funny thing is that Glock stocks DO exist.

          • nadnerbus

            I know, but they are quite illegal without SBR type paperwork. Another ridiculous law, of course.

      • I figure the first perp through the door would be profitably hit with multiple rounds. Second and subsequent would have to get a morale check with -2 modifier. It may be just the thing to shut down a home invasion before it gets out of hand, and to prevent the first perp from interacting with the home defender, “as two spent swimmers that do cling together and choke their art” (Macbeth).

        • Zachary marrs

          Might as well just rack your shotgun if your home defense plan is to try to scare them away

    • John

      Using a fully automatic firearm in a self-defense scenario is a bad idea, legally speaking.

      • claymore

        Why? And what is a “Fully automatic firearm”?

      • echelon

        Obviously. Since we live in a highly authoritarian nanny state that seeks to control our every action it would make sense that using FA for a DGU would be less than ideal.

        So if someone is writing an article I think they should equivocate their position by saying something about our current cultural and political climate, not just saying that the tool wouldn’t be effective in a certain situation.

        If it could be useful for protecting “VIPs” then why wouldn’t it be useful for protecting my VIPs (Wife, kids, etc)? Don’t see the difference in a world where everything is equal…

    • kingghidorah

      The nut hangers are just barely ‘people’. Those nuts are sold for the man who has everything, everything but dignity.

  • Anonymous

    I attended a class with an ATF instructor who said that drug dealers in California were modifying Glocks to completely empty the magazine with one trigger pull (even if the trigger was released it would keep firing). He said that they were using it as a “getaway gun”. Just pull the trigger while pointing it behind you while running. I think mostly used against rivals. So you can add “drug dealer getaway gun” to your list of machine pistol uses.

    • MP

      “an ATF instructor who said that drug dealers in California were”

      this sounds like the kind of shit that probably happened once and will be repeated ad infinitum because it makes good imagery

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Ugh, agreed.

        Can we get some sources before anyone posts any more flat out bullshit!?

      • John

        Like that one Cobray Street Sweeper that gets trotted out every time the LAPD does a gun buyback program, the same single gun that’s been in police inventory for at least the past 20 years, with the implication being that that gun was turned in, you know, to make it look like people bring things other than broken junk guns and WW2 bringbacks to those things.

      • Anonymous

        I just thought it was funny/interesting and related to overall topic of the article… The gun community doesn’t have to get their panties in a wad every time the ATF is mentioned….

        • MP

          It’s an aversion to bullshit, not the ATF

          • Anonymous

            Easy now… I didn’t mean to upset you. Gave it a little Google search and came up with this:

            http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/7303-Fully-auto-Glocks

            I was not trying to stir up trouble with my comment, the article just reminded me of a 5min segment of a 3 hour class on identifying firearms for LEOs(with a video of the said glock mod). I never gave it any thought as to wether it was real or not since I had an instructor showing me a video of one. I also never thought I would have to go before an expert like you and defend it (though I’m not really defending it, I could honestly care less if it’s real or not). I have no problem with constructive criticism or skepticism of what I say, just try not to be an ass.

    • Mike

      I could see a situation like…..bang, bang, Holy crap there’s too many of them. Then it would be my getaway gun.

  • Ken

    Don’t forget about John Dillinger’s full auto 1911 in .38 Super.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/03/29/colt-m1911-machine-pistols/

  • Nicholas Chen

    Better than me. I could not hit steel torso at 25 yards LOL Used a Glock 17 with full auto sear.

  • mosinman

    couldn’t you dump a mag on a standard glock pretty fast with better accuracy than the glock machinepistol?

    • MrSatyre

      Jerry Miculek sure as hell could! 😉

    • JumpIf NotZero

      No. Well would determine in your definition of “pretty fast”, but relative speeds, no, not at all.

      • mosinman

        well i think we all know you can’t fire 1000+ rpm with just your finger and a semi-auto firearm. i’m just speculating that you can fire “fast” while being more accurate and efficeient than if you used a machine pistol.

  • nadnerbus

    So, dual wielding G-18s while running madly around the battlefield in a gillie suit isn’t going to turn me into an unstoppable killing machine?

    • mosinman

      my whole life is a lie…..

  • While I agree that machine pistols as defined in the article are a relatively niche product, they definitely have their uses for roles like vip protection. Being able to fire a large amount of ammunition relatively quickly at a lone or small number of targets can be a useful trait in a firearm for these kinds of roles

    • Dan

      Yep nothing better than a hail of bullets flying into the crowd of people your target is standing in the middle of.

  • snmp

    Do not miss the Russian (soviet) PDW like the select fire Stechkin APS and OTs-33 Pernach in 9mm Makarov.

    The Berretta 93R, HK VP70 & Glock 18 is not full auto gun but Burst

    • No, the Glock 18 is full auto.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Oh, if I ran this site there would be week long bans for statements like his.

  • 1leggeddog

    Is it practical?

    If you don’t just mag dump, YES it is. I doubt anyone that creates a firearm, outside of a rifle or a LMG, thinks that their creation is best used when just pulling the trigger and never letting go.

    Sure, there are exceptions to this rule, but recoil and rate of fire is always an issue. And in the case of the G18, or any full auto pistol, the high ROF and recoil does NOT make it super viable. But in short burts, hell yeah.

    But how does one lower the rate of fire when the action is so short? Someone needs to figure out this engineering feat.

    How would you MECHANICALLY make it go slower without making the pistol huge?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      No one saying “alter the rate of fire” has any idea how auto sears work apparently!

      The correct answer would be electronically, but this is a solution in search of a problem.

      • Pistols are pretty small to be putting rate reducers in, I agree.

        • mosinman

          wouldn’t the vz.61 count as a machine pistol? it has a rate reducer in the grip

          • Absolutely – keep in mind, though, the rate reducer is right where the magazine would be in a normal semi-automatic handgun.

      • Slow rate of fire machine guns are an interesting niche. The Chauchat used long recoil and had a ROF of about 250 rpm, plenty fast for suppressing enemy Maxim guns, and reducing the amount of ammunition that had to be carried on the assault.

        I see the machine pistol as compensating for the limited stopping probability of a single pistol round. If one can put 3 rounds onto a man, that is more likely to stop them. If stop probability is 50% (its a number) then 2 rounds raises that to 75%, and three to 87.5%. If one had a 120 round per minute rate of fire that would be 3 rounds in 1 second (Bang 1/2 Bang 1 Bang) perhaps faster than one could get with separate trigger manipulations and sight line ups.

    • One way to make the rate of fire slower is to use a long recoil system, so more of the gun (as in, the barrel with the bolt) recoils, and recoil movement takes longer.

      Another way would be to put a time delay device in the fire control. That could be an electronic device (say one that charged a capacitor, and released the hammer/striker after the capacitor discharged) or a device that used recoil to spin up a wheel, and permitted the hammer/striker to fall after the wheel speed dropped.

  • Timmeehh

    In Quebec the police just shoot through the door with their MP5s. Oops wrong door!

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19831228&id=_j0lAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jaUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1085,2626518

    • JumpIf NotZero

      At least they are classy enough to use MP5s.

    • noguncontrol

      wacko nazi canada at it again.

  • Dan

    Lean into it a little more…

    • … and fall flat on my face?

  • noob

    maybe one more legitimate use – tunnel warfare. the engagement range would be arms length and the other guy has a (relatively) unwieldy ak in full auto.

    you could improve your chances with a fold away vertical grip with integrated IR light and a bunch of 30 round magazines.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      I’ll be sure to mention that in 1914.

      • noob

        and again in 1966. and 2001.

      • Yellow Devil

        Never assume the next war won’t or will be like the last ones.

  • Evil13RT

    I think leaving out guns like the Mac10/11 is problematic, since they’ll include things like extendable stocks, grips, and the extra mass that make a better argument for automatic fire in a pistol format.

    As it is the argument boils down to people who need alot of shock and awe in a very small package. Legal issues and restrictions being what they are, that number is reduced to the handful of bodyguards whos bosses have an absurd about of clout.
    With that kind of money in pocket its probably no issue to get a few custom made weapons. Larger manufacturers simply can’t make bank selling a handful of weapons to a tiny customer list, hence the lack of interest and general derision of the setup.

    • Cymond

      The problem with something like a MAC-10 is that it is debatable whether that’s a large machine pistol or a small submachinegun.
      From what I understand, their large/heavy bolt and high ROF makes them virtually unusable without a stock and suppressor/barrel shroud. At that point, they’re much further into ‘subgun’ territory.

  • Wetcoaster

    Out of curiosity, how is it to control in a situation where you don’t have all the time in the world to brace and prepare before firing? Say running it through an IPSC course, for example.

    • Not hard but I have not exactly run through a shoot house or anything with it.

  • Iggy

    I suppose it’s not really a machine pistol at that point, but Forgotten Weapons has covered a pretty nifty Brazilian police conversion of a m712 in a fairly compact submachine gun.

  • noguncontrol

    put a detachable shoulder stock on it, and you are good to go. but i still prefer a full auto full sized uzi, easier to control and still concealable with a big jacket or coat.

    • That is like saying “yeah, my bike with a motor put on it would do, but I would rather have a car”.

  • Tom Currie

    And how much real advantage is there to short controlled bursts compared to aimed rapid fire? Full auto fire has a valid role in a military environment for suppressive fire and for area fire, but for LEO, VIP Protection, and personal defense, full auto is just an expensive version of spray & pray. (Which might well make the NYPD a good market for your converted Glocks since they are infamous for spray & pray).

  • Franciscomv

    Some crooks in my country have modified the local version of the Browning HP (called FM 95) to fire full auto. Here’s a video filmed by a very knowledgeable gun writer (who’s also a LEO) in Rosario. Some work better than others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcI1mcedjFw

  • Green Hell

    If you will ever have a chance to ask any Russian law inforsement or special forces guy, what is the best personal firearm in the world – most of them are going to will say that it’s APS Stechkin. Extremely accurate and comfortable to shoot in both semi and full auto thanks to the 9×18 ammo and relatively heavy weight, 20 round mag, 100% reliable and and and it also comes with a very nice wooden holster-stock. Some of them say that in most close combat situations it even makes some compact SMG’s like PP-2000 or TMP absolete, so yes, there definitly is a place for machine pistols in practical application. You just have to get the right ideas when making one.

    Also, I think I saw some bullshit down below in the comments about machine pistols being impossible to use with the shield. Wrong:

    • Nicks87

      Nobody said it was impossible. I said it’s not being done in American Law Enforcement because of possible collateral damage and it makes your shield man a lot less mobile/effective. You have to remember that the Russian and ex-soviet bloc countries have a totally different approched to LE and anti-terrorism tactics. They have more of a brute force style because they dont place as high of value on human life as western countries do.

  • claymore

    The trench coat people agree with you they carry glock 18’s but also have the small folding stock either on the firearm or close on the body issued by their agencies. Let me say this was a few years ago and they probably have a better something by now.

  • Camilo Emiliano Rosas Echeverr

    Full-auto Skorpions were the weapon of choice for political assassinations by communist terrorists in 70s Italy.

  • Sulaco

    The only machine pistol I thought was worth a S&#t was the Berretta 93R.

  • Gun4fun

    Maybe chambered in 5.7x28mm steel core with a weighted front, big @$$ compensator, some heavy duty recoil springs, special sight, and possibly low pressure ammo I would use it for home defense

  • Nergyl

    Ah yes, the good old Glock 18. I got a chance to shoot one back when I was 17. Generally, I found that I was able to hit the target pretty reliably with three-round bursts out to about 40 meters. Not too bad given its light weight and crazy rate of fire. Especially when you consider that I was using a crappy “tea-cup” shooting position.

    My understanding is that the 18C (compensator) model is notably easier to control.

  • Manintoga

    Robie Kulokivi did an article detailing the proper method of firing a g18 full auto back in 1995 in G&A, If i remember it correctly the gun was held sideways near the hip with both hands and aiming was more on target assesment and instinct than anything, grouping was decent at normal handgun engagement ranges.

  • wraith67

    Full auto is primarily for suppression and increases the probability of a hit. I like the idea of a full auto Glock, but I’d have to get something other than a G20. I think a (relatively) short barreled police style shotguns would be more effective as a home defense weapon… you can put a red dot (or whatever close quarter optic you like) on them with a flashlight attachment…tighter groups and more hits than the Glock in the demo. IMO heavier is better, a Mac10, mini-Uzi or a Berretta MP9 would be better.

  • Todd Chrisman

    One overlooked situation where machine pistols shine brightly: backyard FUN. A pumpkin throwing catapult could be used for assassination, but it’s most likely use is the pursuit of happiness.