Gvass sent us a photo of his Hungarian Keserű Revenge-14M 5-shot revolver. It fires 15 mm rubber bullets using .380 R (rimmed) blank cartridges. The rubber bullets are loaded into the front of the cylinder and the blanks are loaded into the rear. This type of gun is popular in a number of Eastern European countries where they are legal to carry but lethal firearms are not.

The Revenge-14M is demonstrated in the below video …

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  • Porty1119

    I’m legitimately wondering about the legality of these on college campuses in the US. Most of us (except for a lucky few in MS, ID, and a couple others) have to keep our guns off-campus, while knives and less-lethal weapons such as mace and Tasers are completely fine.

    • Paul Epstein

      Legally, in the US, it’s still a firearm and governed by all applicable laws. It has a cartridge which uses a chemical propellant to expel a projectile, and if you ask the ATF, or for that matter most law enforcement, it’s a gun and they’d treat it as such.

      If you want to make a valid projectile defense weapon that isn’t a gun, it has to use some alternative means of propelling the rubber slug, and while there are certainly means of doing so, I can’t think of one that’s suitable for the usage you’ve outlined.

      • Porty1119

        Thank you. There are still CS guns and similar. In any case, I live in a pro-2A state and I would not rule out getting campus carry, especially as we already have provisions for arming teachers.

      • d

        I have an idea for a gun powered by a mixture of propane and nitrous oxide. Fires blobs of heavy silicone gel on full auto.

        • mikewest007

          Silicone gel blobs? Nah, unless you have an idea for a feed system that doesn’t chop them up during chambering. I have some experience with airsoft guns that pretty much work like this, just with plastic BBs instead.

      • Randy Maness

        No it’s not. If your description was accurate every nail gun would be a firearm.

        • Paul Epstein

          Here is the LAW:

          “Firearm: Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.”

          Source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf

          Nailgun? Doesn’t meet the ‘weapon’ portion of the criteria. But if the BATFE wanted to, they could probably argue that point successfully in court if they had a case where one was used to murder someone.

          This? Designed as a weapon, it is intended to be used on people to disable them and has no other use. It may be nonlethal, but it is still a weapon designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. It meets every single point of the criteria.

    • Zachary marrs

      I wouldn’t want to get into a self defense scenario with a less lethal device called “revenge”

      • Kovacs Jeno

        Thanks god, 90% of the Hungarian police personnel do not speak English at all.:-)

    • Anonymoose

      No Tasers or knives 2.5″ or longer allowed at the college I work at, and mace/pepper spray is highly discouraged by our Campus Police. We have at least two or three armed muggings and one break-in a week here, and at least a couple forcible rapes per semester, by the way. Some of my friends were shot at twice in one month, yet the administration still doesn’t think we should be able to shoot back. Their solution: lock more (glass) doors and send out more unarmed security twits to loiter around inside the academic buildings during the day.

      • Schadavi

        German universities have hardly any crime, except bike theft and stolen books. Sometimes drunk vandalism, but I have never even heard of any serious crimes.
        And i can keep my hunting rifles in my flat, since firearms are personell possessions which your landlord (the Uni) cannot deny you. There even have been judical decisions enforcing this.

      • Porty1119

        Tasers, knives of all sizes, and mace are all extremely common here. Including switchblades and similar.

    • Alex Kevarsky

      Something to keep in mind – it is quite possible to kill with this thing under right circumstances.

      • Kovacs Jeno

        Since 2004 tens of thousands of similar guns are sold in Hungary, and in that 10 year no one was killed with them. The penetration is minimal, the traumatic effect is the most important.

        • Alex Kevarsky

          Both British and Israeli forces use of rubber bullets caused a number of deaths over the years. Generally, death when impacted by a rubber bullet is unlikely but entirely possible, such as when temporal bone is struck. I brought it up not to criticize this particular gun, but to explain why in certain jurisdictions “sub-lethal” weapons are regulated as strictly as firearms.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            These are different animals. British used 37 and 40 mm grenade launchers with hard baton rounds, israelis use 5,56×45 mm Blanks for their rubber bullet adapters on their M16s. Energy is somewhere 150-300+ joules.

            These “civilian” handguns in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, Russia, France etc. usually effective up to cca. 5-8 meters, and the muzzle energy is cca. 30-100 joules and the bullet is usually soft rubber.

            Of course a point blank shot on the face or eye could be very dangerous, but an upper body shot is surely not lethal.

          • d

            The rubber bullets used by Israeli forces are 5.56 projectiles, a metal core surrounded by a coating of rubber. This revolver fires a 15mm solid rubber projectile that will deform and spread its energy over a much larger area. Its not going to penetrate skin, but it might break a skull.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            No.
            Israelis use cca. 17 mm diameter steelcore rubber bullets or balls (muzzleloaded into a barrel extension), fired by manually loaded 5,56×45 mm blanks.

            http://elderofziyon.blogspot.hu/2014/05/cnn-footage-shows-israeli-troops-firing.html#.VEZZZxYreSo

  • Old 1811

    Does it shoot earplugs?

    • SD3

      Ha! Man, that’s good!

  • Szabó Sándor

    Keserű has been (in)famous for his crudely made gas/signal guns and his brutally screwed up experiments in turning firearms into blank shooting pieces. This one looks like an improvement, though…

  • Dr. Daniel Jackson

    A few of these Keserű firearms look like they could be easily converted to fire lead.

    • Schadavi

      They usually have an obstruction made from very hard steel in the barrel that only lets rubber bullets “squeeze by”.
      The barrel itself is made from weaker metal, so if you try to drill the obstruction out, the barrel will break or deform.

      I have seen some pistols converted to fire live ammunition, usually the barrel is replaced with a steel pipe or illegaly acquired barrels. (Most euro countries regulate barrels as firearms parts that need permits)

      • Dr. Daniel Jackson

        I wasn’t talking about converting one to fire live ammo I was talking about using the .380 blanks it already uses and loading a musket/black powder revolver lead ball on the other end of the cylinder instead of the typical rubber bullet.

        • Kovacs Jeno

          It will explode. The cylinder and frame is made of aluminium alloy (the entire gun is only cca. 16 ozs (under 0,5 kg), and the cylinder bore and the barrel is excentric, only a rubber bullet can go through. And there are two obstacles in the barrel, too.

          • Dr. Daniel Jackson

            I really doubt it would explode the black powder guns made of brass never have and brass is considerably weaker than aluminum.

          • mehdumbass

            No, brass comes in lots of different grades one of the hardest and most pressure resistant one is red brass or gunmetal which was used for making guns even today its used to make high pressure vessels thinner than equivalent aluminum ones and much better at taking heat, even then brass cannons where cast much thicker than the parts on this gun, . the shift to iron and steel was more for economics than for strength.
            The biggest issue is that if you loaded a metal projectile that matches the bore of the gun is that the round is much heavier, which requires more pressure to be propelled. At best you get a round stuck at worst pressure behind the round will build and exceed the failure points of the barrel or chamber.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            It was designed to explode or break in an attempt to convert it.
            The wall thickness in the cylinder is sometimes only 1 mm.

            maybe some small birdshot+wad can be fired through the barricaded barrel, but that would be less effective (and less safe) than the 15 mm (cca. .60-caliber) rubber bullet.

          • mikewest007

            …fucking Keseru, how do they work.
            What you’re saying is some technical witchcraft, how hard are those bullets? Because they’d have to be either sponge-like or jelly-like to get through that obstacle course.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            The bullets are similar in hardness and elasticity to normal car tyre.

  • Elvis

    In the US, this would meet the definition of a firearm, so you might as well carry a proper firearm.

  • Big Kat

    3 guns in the background have amd-65 pistol grips and a backwards amd-65 grip as a fore-grip, about as Hungarian as it gets.

    • dan citizen

      there is a neat video of the amd 65 looking one

  • toms

    I have always wondered what is the point of trauma guns? The are popular in Ukraine. The only time I saw one used was when two drunk mafia guys shot eachother after a party. Mostly to see who was more cowboy. A lot of reporters carry them which I always found extremely funny. I still think the muckraking journalists turn up disappeared, rubber bullet gun or not, at the same rate that they did prior to these becoming legal. I think i would recommend a micro uzi and floatable body armor.

    • Kovacs Jeno

      Point is, these are much more effective than a bare hand or a pepperspray. And real guns are almost impossible to own for selfdefence in these countries.
      Another important point: after the use of the nonlethal gun, the police will not investigate with such “urgency” like in the case of a real gun.

      • iksnilol

        Kovacs has a point. Send some lead flying and you’re gonna draw heat. Use a knife or less-lethal gat and you won’t draw much attention.

        In European countries many criminals don’t use guns (too much heat around them). Those that do also get caught many times. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it isn’t common.

        • Kovacs Jeno

          Knife is a lethal weapon. These rubber bullet guns are something like a pepperspray or a taser. No lasting effect, usually the criminal shot with one will not run to the police.
          or even he/she run, the police will not care about such minor incidents.

  • Sulaco

    Not sure of the point except to have SUMETHING…

  • nature223

    then when you hit them with a rubber bullet.. they get pissed off and shoot you back with a REAL bullet. DUMB IDEA.. you shoot to kill.. not to sting

    • Kovacs Jeno

      Practically no “average” criminal carry a real gun here. A lot of illegal guns are out there, but criminals usually use knifes, iroan bars etc. There is only some 20-30 firearm homicides in a year in Hungary.
      These non lethal guns are NOT against machine gun armed bank robbers, but against the drunken street criminals or against aggressive burglars.

  • Giolli Joker

    Zinc alloy?

    • Kovacs Jeno

      Aluminium

  • Guest

    Did’nt I see this exact Pistol in “WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT”?

  • nature223

    Didn’t I see this exact Pistol in “WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT”?

    • Verner

      No, actually the one in Roger Rabbit is more effective than this. Proof:

      😀

      • nature223

        so is that a Redskin Jacket Firearms bullet??

  • JA$

    In European countries these guns are not legal to carry. They are legal to own. Firearms are on license and rarely licenses are issued for some kind of self protection. For use at home (or on you own private property, like a farm) people have to go to this kinds of extremes.
    The reason this piece does not require a license is that it is considered a muzzleloader and falls under the definition of replica.
    The gun is made from a zinc alloy and will definitely explode when lead balls are used. The cylinder is designed not to be able to stand the pressure of anything higher than what propels a rubber ball. Even steel balls (though it is often tried) will end up destroying the gun.
    There are several semiauto blank firing guns available in countries like Bulgaria that fire rubber balls and are often converted to shoot steel balls (by replacing the rubber ball on the cartridge by a roller bearing ball. Those guns are made by Aral and Zoraki in Turkey. This Keser comes from Hungary and there laws are different.
    Ever thought what will happen when you fire such a rubber ball at a wall in front of you.
    Ough!

    • Kovacs Jeno

      “In European countries these guns are not legal to carry”
      “The reason this piece does not require a license is that it is
      considered a muzzleloader and falls under the definition of replica.”

      This is legal to carry (with a shall-issue carry licence in Hungary), as it is considered as gas-alarm gun. The muzzleloader versions did not have considerable barricades in the barrel, and those are no more manufactured here.

      “The gun is made from a zinc alloy”

      That is true, that most of such guns are zinc, but this one is aluminium.

  • iksnilol

    It’s called “Revenge” and isn’t even lethal? Keseru marketing department, you disappoint me.

  • Verner

    This is what we get to carry for self-defense here in Hungary. Dear Americans, guard your 2nd Amendment well. You don’t want to face a criminal armed with only this, not if you can help it.

    • Kovacs Jeno

      And even this is a big step forward. Until 1991 even the low powered airguns were banned.

  • Nathan Means

    I have no idea what these guys cost, but I feel like a $40 c02 airsoft gun would put you in about the same protection bracket. Makes your attacker mad and slightly sore, unless you hit an eye that is. I would personally feel safer with a knife

    • Kovacs Jeno

      the airsoft pistol is usually cca. 1 joule. This is 100 j.
      it is like a direct blow from Mike Tyson. 5 times. Not bad.

      • Kovacs Jeno

        price is cca. 150 usd.

  • Alex Nicolin

    Rubber bullet pistols are the only “weapon” civilians can own and carry in Romania. Most popular cartridge is 9 mm rubber (actually .32 ACP loaded with a compressed rubber ball) shot in modified blowback semiautos. The barrel is actually squeezed down to about 5 mm to give the round enough pressure to cycle the action so the rubber ball is actually squeezed down to about 1/2 of its diameter before it leaves the barrel. Most of those guns could be converted to .32 ACP with only a barrel and spring swap, which would be illegal and carry heavy penalties, but ammo would be extremely hard to come by – one can only buy ammo legally in limited quantities, based on the gun permit, and reloading components are illegal to own, unless you’re a registered armorer.

    • Kovacs Jeno

      no, the 9 mm PA Rubber is not based on .32 ACP, but on the 9 mm PA Knall. 9×22 mm no semirimmed, a straight wall case.

      • Alex Nicolin

        PA Rubber is only for revolvers. I was talking about semiautos, which are more prevalent here.

        • Kovacs Jeno

          NO. 9 mm PA Rubber is the most common semiauto NONrimmed cartridge.
          There are others like .45 Rubber, 10×22 T, 10×28 Traumatic etc.

          PA = Pistol Automatic

  • JRJ21

    What a bizarro world,these are get you killed non guns.Do you think an isis terrorist will die laughing?It’s your head Europe.All politicians and these phony gun makers should be imprisoned for pushing this crap.Imagine Churchill with his cigar holding a rubber shooting gun,we would all be lampshades.

    • Kovacs Jeno

      It is nice to know, you have no connection to REALITY.

      Hmm, why don’t you attack the mayor of New York City (that is in the UNITED STATES, hey!), there are even more strict gun laws and less chance for selfdefence than in Europe, generally.

      Ohh, yeah, ignorance is a bliss.

      • JRJ21

        What are you talking about,?Bloomberg should be in jail too.When the shtf these rubber bullet guns will be laughed at.Churchill knew we needed rea armaments to defend against tyranny.A people who will let a Government disarm them gets what they deserve.Are you a sheeple?

        • Kovacs Jeno

          You are a hopeless idiot. Sorry.

          First do your homework in your own country, dude.

          • JRJ21

            Dude,I know the laws here,I carry two real guns as a LOT of citizens do and our crime rate is much lower than Englands where only the criminals are armed.BAAAA for me hopeless idiot.

          • Kovacs Jeno

            You criticize us, but in YOUR country there are places even more restrictive. NYC, New Jersey, Washington DC, please WORK for erasing THOSE restrictions, BEFORE you call anyone sheeple.

          • JRJ21

            We have worked,all of these places are under court orders to start concealed carry laws and to stop enforcing illegal local laws,communism dies hard,Since Heller all laws against second amendment are being reverse.DC has concealed carry NOW.Get a clue

          • Kovacs Jeno

            In Hungary 24 years ago even the low-powered airguns were banned, only since 10 years we can have tear gas/rubber bullet pistols without licence, only since 2012 can we store our licenced hunting firearms loaded, ready for home defense.
            Only since last summer it is declared automatically selfdefence, when you kill an armed intruder in your home.

            This is some positive developments I think. Get a clue.

          • JRJ21

            My clue is that we actually vote for people who bring real freedom to our gun rights.I put my 357.sig on every morning and Get a clue is MY LINE,as is ARE YOU IN A COMA?Quit voting for socialist,There’s a clue.