The Guns of Ferguson

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Whenever a conflict occurs, whether it be war, police related, or terrorism, the politics aside it is always interesting from a shooting perspective to view what the concerned parties are using. Sometimes it is extremely revealing in the case of the SAS using MP5s in the Iranian embassy hostage rescue, famously known as the International debut of the MP5. Other times pictures in media show what was previously unknown or unseen such as the AK-74s in Afghanistan written about by a Soldier of Fortune reporter who brought the then mysterious AK-74 back to the States. Other examples can be seen on this blog in the case of small arms in use in Syria. With the recent up-rest in Ferguson, the arms of the local police forces are in the media on an international basis almost daily at this point.

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This Police Officer has a 10.5 inch barrel on his M4, in addition to an Aimpoint scope and integrated rear sight. Image from BBC News

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This officer has a very well set up AR10, what appears to be a Knight’s Armament 7.62 SR25 with a 3rd party monolithic handguard and barrel, most likely free floated. Looks to be Harris bipods, Badger Ordnance charging handle,leather sling, and a U.S. Optics scope. The tripod is a Montrotto with a rifle rest clamped to the top. The canted Trijicon RMR and Inforce flashlight are rather puzzling on the other hand, devices meant for a close in fight wherein his rifle is a long range precision arm. Image from BBC News

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An interesting mix of old and new, with wooden/polymer Remington 870s on the right and 10.5 inch M4s on the left. Image from BBC News



Miles V

Former Infantry Marine, and currently studying at Indiana University. I’ve written for Small Arms Review and Small Arms Defense Journal, and have had a teenie tiny photo that appeared in GQ. Specifically, I’m very interested in small arms history, development, and Military/LE usage within the Middle East, and Central Asia.

If you want to reach out, let me know about an error I’ve made, something I can add to the post, or just talk guns and how much Grunts love naps, hit me up at miles@tfb.tv


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  • raz-0

    The 10.5″ M4 appears to be all rock river arms, and not an M4. Upper, lower, and handguard are all rock river items.

    • SP mclaughlin

      “M4” is a general reference to any shorter barreled AR15 derivative, though.

      • Sam Schifo

        Not really. The M4 designation denotes select fire capability.

        • CA.Ben

          Check out that third pin. It is select fire.

  • Miami_JBT

    The AR-10 is a Mega Arms SR-25 pattern rifle.

    The SBR is a Rock River Arms Arms with a Eotech riser rear sight combo made by RRA.

    The 870s are normal 870s. None are wood stock. Those are orange polymer stocks to denote less lethal munitions.

    • N

      And that is not a US Optic scope. Not a chance. Looks like a Leupold Mark 4.

    • sid goldberg.

      These same pigs will be coming for your guns soon.

      • big daddy

        The same pigs protect you from criminals and keep us safe the best they can.

        • sid goldberg.

          They will do as they are told as long as they are gettin’ paid.

          • big daddy

            Yes that is what a job is, they pay you and you do as you are told.

        • valorius

          Cops do not protect. They file reports long after the fact.

          • Sometimes but not always by any means. I’ve run into armed robberies in progress a few times and other crimes.

          • valorius

            Can we agree on the following statement:

            “The majority of the time, police respond after the fact.”

          • Not really. I worked the bad part of the city and a great number of calls were family disturbances.
            Most after the fact calls were daylight house burglaries in the bad areas. We never had the time to really spend a lot of time in the residential areas because of all the disturbance calls, shootings, stabbings,accident calls looking for wanted persons and the list goes on. My personal worst day was 28 calls in 8 hours with three of those being homicides. A very hot Saturday evening is not a fun time to be an officer.
            Everyday varies though and some days the calls were after the fact some days not.

    • Blastattack

      The SBR may well be an RRA (the lower clearly is) but it is not equipped with an “Eotech riser rear sight combo”. The rear sight is clearly integrated into the upper and the rail is at the same height as the handguard rail.

  • Marc

    The rifle on the tripod is a mega with an JP handguard.

  • USMC03Vet

    These fools wearing MARPAT really grind my gears. Are these weapons fully automatic? How would law enforcement justify the use of fully automatic weapons to begin with since automatic fire is used for suppression and that just isn’t something I see any department policy supporting?

    • dannye

      It’s necessary because the people, having lost 90% of their gun rights over the last five decades, are actually more militarized than ever with semi-automatic rifles and box magazines, a technology that has been around for a century.

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/21/swat-lobby-takes-a-shot-at-congress.html

      • sid_goldberg

        Call me when I can buy full auto. If it makes you feel any better CA is about to ban civilian body armor.

        • dannye

          Sarcasm tag added.

          • sid_goldberg

            ^+

      • Bill

        What? Gun laws are less restrictive now than since 1964. How many states have CCW provisions? The gunshot I was in yesterday had a half dozen suppressors on open display, you didn’t see that 10 years ago. I could count the black guns and fighting shotguns, and the handgun counter had maybe a quarter of it’s space devoted to target and hunting handguns, the rest were duty/defensive. Then there are court decisions like Heller…..Study your history

        • dannye

          GCA 68, Hughes Amendment, Bush import ban, etc.

          Bans on open/concealed carry were passed by racist politicians in response to black activists open carrying, reversing those laws only returns us to the status quo at 1964. Same with Heller.

          Seems like you should study your history.

          • Bill

            Open carry was banned in NYC in the 1800s, along with Tombstone Arizona. If you think things are bad now, I’m guessing that you are well under 30 and are sitting on more 30 round AR mags than you could possibly use, or get a good return on investment. The AWB sunset without a whimper. As much as you might like to believe legislators are stupid, they aren’t, and they know full well that coming out as hard anti-gun is a career ender. Recall elections in Colorado, remember those last year?

            I swear, people don’t know how good they have it anymore. You want an open flow of all the guns you want, full auto and everything, every caliber, plus all the benefits of a small government? Try Somalia or Chechnya. You can own you own tank, with a functional main gun, or as functional as you’d expect after some minor wear and tear over the last 30 to 40 years or more. A militarized police force? No worries, no police.

          • dannye

            The Sullivan Law in NYC is a city-level ordnance, same as Tombstone. California as a state banned open carry in 1967. Concealed carry laws were passed in a variety of states in the same timeframe for the same reasons.

            The sunset of AWB is a return to the status quo, nothing more. It’s amusing that you claim the demise of AWB94 is a loosening of gun laws in the five decade timeframe that I brought up.

            “You want an open flow of all the guns you want, full auto and everything, every caliber, plus all the benefits of a small government?”

            Oh wait, that was the way it was before NFA34. And it was awesome.

            Kudos for using the Somalia canard, because the real problem with Somalia is too much government: http://reason.com/archives/2009/04/17/against-all-flags

    • sid goldberg.

      Real brave-aren’t they? Arresting journalists and pointing sniper rifles at cardboard sign carrying protestors.

      • big daddy

        Sid listen up, have you ever had to patrol an area like that as LE. No…..I thought so. I had to grow up in places like that in NYC. I support LE fully as I do the civil rights movement. Freedom for all, for all who obey the law. You don’t obey the law, you go to jail and lose your freedom, get it? If the law is wrong you work to change it.

        • dannye

          “If the law is wrong you work to change it.”

          God forbid cops refuse to enforce laws which are quantitatively proven to do more harm than good. Gotta collect a paycheck, eh?

          • ColaBox

            Well yea, why the hell else would someone have a job?

          • big daddy

            That’s not their job, their job is to follow the law and their orders or lose their job. Many times police do go against orders. In my area they cannot be ordered to arrest someone if they do not want to as I was told by an officer. Every jurisdiction has different laws. Their job is to serve and protect, protect me against law breakers so please officer follow the rules.

          • dannye

            Their job isn’t to serve and protect, it’s to enforce the law, regardless of how awful the laws are. Notice how cops only refer to themselves as “peace officers” when they are in need of a PR boost. Otherwise it’s LEO/LE.

            Odd how some of the very worst laws are enforced with much zeal. You’d think the police actually enjoy doing it.

          • big daddy

            Some people just will never see anything but their opinion. It’s serve and protect.

          • dannye

            Says the guy denying reality, as in, what cops literally call themselves.

            Also according to SCOTUS the cops have absolutely no liability when they don’t serve and protect. Just a FYI.

          • Most of the time it’s officer discretion but in IL. they have laws that should the officer not enforce they get arrested.

          • mosinman

            Although I understand your point, and my comparison is extreme, you have to keep in mind that I’m sure the gestapo was just following orders and laws too. It’s a dangerous mindset in my opinion. ( not saying our cops are genocidal or nazis or war criminals)

          • Bill

            ” not saying our cops are genocidal or nazis or war criminals”

            That’s exactly what you are saying. I have discretion in how I handle problems, and if that problem yields probable cause to believe that a violation of a statuary law enacted by the legislative branch has been violated, my job is to take the person before a court of competent jurisdiction for adjudication. My job also requires that I not follow illegal orders.

            YOU, the public, vote for your legislators and have the ability to influence the laws they pass, or revoke. And if my supervisor gives me a lawful order to enforce a law, that’s what I’ll do, other wise it’s insubordination, bordering on moral corruption. I may not agree with or “like” the law. But if everyone only did what they liked or agreed with, that’s anarchy

          • dannye

            LOL @ “moral corruption” when you literally refuse to even consider the morality of the law that you are enforcing.

            There was a study recently concluding that government unions have more power to influence legislation than just about everyone except billionaires and ruling class insiders. That includes police unions. Keep that in mind before you preach about how we must live with the laws that we supposedly accede to.

          • Great comment Bill and right on the money.

          • mosinman

            Except I’m not. I merely stated following orders and laws isn’t always good. The Boston tea party and American revolution were against the law I’m pretty sure. there are laws the conflict with the constitution, and so if you enforce them what does that make you? In a perfect world legislators would pass laws the people want but that’s not always the case is it?
            I believe it is our duty as Americans to stand up to unconstitutional or unjust laws. so yes I want all policemen to think about the laws they enforce and consider thier morality rather than be mindless drones to the State.

          • Bill

            “so yes I want all policemen to think about the laws they enforce and consider their morality”

            No you don’t, because what I think is moral and what you think is moral may not be the same. But the law removes that discrepancy You may be doing something I think is immoral, but if it isn’t illegal it isn’t any of my business. Whether a law is “moral” or not typically depends on how you feel when you break it. All I care about is the Constitution and how SCOTUS wants me to do my job within it’s limits. If you think a law conflicts with the Constitution, there’s your redress.

          • dannye

            A good display of American Fuhrerprinzip.

            At least have the decency to admit that you are nothing more than a hired gun of the government instead of feeding us a load of BS about serving the people.

          • Bill

            Stop with the references to Germany under Hitler. It’s histrionic, demonstrates the weakness of your position, and dishonors the memory of the tens of millions who died as a result of his actions.

            But you are right: I was hired and I do carry guns. Prior to that I was a social worker, I have a graduate degree in social sciences and my first commendation was for exemplary services to victims of crime. I’m also on the SWAT team and am a firearms and use of force instructor, and hostage/crisis negotiator. I have stopped doing sniper duty due to vision issues. We call it precision rifle, but I thought you’d prefer “sniper” as it’s more dramatic and militaristic.

          • dannye

            Isn’t the entire point of studying history is so we don’t repeat mistakes? Since when was Nazi Germany off limits? I could compare today’s cops to Stalin’s NKVD with the exact same Fuhrerprinzip parallel but you’ll probably make up some new internet law to skirt around that one.

            At least you finally admitted to being a hired gun who blindly enforces the orders of politicians. I like your “precision rifle” euphemism. Did Lon Horiuchi precisely rifled Vicki Weaver in the head?

          • Bill

            You’re studying the wrong history.

            Do you want to tell the audience how long the US Marshal’s Service tried to get Randy Weaver to voluntarily surrender? Do you want to tell us how he was a coward who hid on a mountain top for a year while Vicki ran errands for him?

            Yeah, a year. He could have reported to court anytime, his responsibility as a US citizen with all the protections that brings, and his wife would be alive today. A lot of people conveniently forget that.

            This is pointless. So far you’ve hit all the keynotes of the tin-foil crowd: Hitler, Stalin and now Ruby Ridge. You do know that the helicopters are grey, not black, don’t you? The black ones are Customs/ICE and nothing to worry about. And if you are going to make your own “Sovereign Citizen” license plate out of cardboard, be sure to laminate it so it lasts longer.

          • dannye

            Do you want to tell the audience that:

            – The ATF lied about the firearms charge that was used to indict Randy Weaver, and those same charges were tossed after the murder of two members of his family?
            – The US Marshal service ambushed Samuel Weaver then shot him in the back as he fled back towards his cabin?
            – The government itself acknowledged the illegality of the ROE used by the government at Ruby Ridge but refused to admit responsibility for the results of said ROE, citing sovereign immunity?

            Your defense of he US government and condemnation of Randy Weaver proves your absolute ignorance of history. You are a literal example of a jack-booted thug.

            You know that hundreds of NKVD and Gestapo agents killed themselves later in life because they couldn’t handle the guilt of executing their orders? American police seem to be totally devoid of conscience or morality.

          • Bill

            “You are a literal example of a jack-booted thug.”

            And with that, we’re done here.

          • dannye

            A former SWAT cop who defends the government for Ruby Ridge? You pass the JBT test, no question.

          • Comprehension

            Where is the word “citizen” used in A) The Declaration of Independence, B) The Constitution of this Country and C) the Bill of Rights? I am an individual…as I see very few others on here as well, thank you dannye for using actual references of the Charlie Foxtrot that took Vicki Weaver and youngest Weaver child… I find it truly amazing how quick the public servant profession move to dismiss anything embarrassing, and illegal, from their image but expect …the People to be guilty of violating some statute…under reasonable cause, of course. Once again, Bill, please inform me where “citizen” is used? Thank you.

          • You not not be aware of it but in some states if an officer refuses to enforce a law they can and have been arrested for non-enforcement.
            Sometimes you can slip around dumb laws but it’s a risk.

          • dannye

            All the more reason to quit.

          • Nah couldn’t do it. I was very much committed to the job.

          • dannye

            Even though “serve and protect” is little more than a bad joke these days?

            That’s fine with me, but cops ought to have the decency not to lie about the true nature of their jobs.

          • The politicians started the protect and serve deal in LA. Everyone else picked up on it.
            The true nature is protecting people whenever possible and as my Sgt. used to say putting assholes in jail. By that he meant dealers, robbers etc. The real bad guys. That’s the city though. In small town America it’s lighting water heaters for older folks even changing tires:-)

          • dannye

            “Bad guy” as defined by politicians or cops is highly suspect.

            You say “dealers” are “bad guys”, and yet there is vast evidence both academic and practical proving the drug war is an utter failure that causes far more violence than from the drug users themselves. And yet the politicians, police chiefs and police unions continue to push these policies and the cops duly enforce them.

            I’m committed to my job but my employer decided to tell me to do something that is quantifiably bad for the community and the people, I’d quit without hesitation.

          • mosinman

            The reason they won’t give up is because its profitable.

          • Our oath fell within the constitution. Any order outside the constitution or illegal doesn’t have to be obeyed.

          • dannye

            Those legal definitions are the sole domain of the government, which is tone-deaf on the effects and unintended consequences of its own bad legislation. Your statement merely confirms that the policing profession requires one to outsource their morality to the government.

          • Police, military etc take the oath and the constitution is central. Our founding fathers wrote it not the modern day politicians.

          • dannye

            Modern day politicians have corrupted the law and the Constitution beyond recognition. Again, what is legal or Constitutional is whatever the politicians decide, and the police enforce the politicians’ diktat.

          • I never considered that I worked for politicians but the people. I knew the constitution and we did have a lot of lessons/testing on constitutional law. You didn’t pass all of those exams you didn’t put on the badge and take the oath.

          • dannye

            That’s nice, but at the end of the day you took orders from politicians and enforce laws that politicians passed then declared to pass Constitutional muster with a variety of linguistic and semantic gymnastics.

            Our Dear Leader is supposedly a Constitutional scholar and look at all the brilliant things he did so far.

          • Comprehension

            A long read, yes…but none the less relevant to your excuses to serve LEO under color of law…please read. Not my writing…but one of a very well respected individual in this country.
            SWEARING AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND HOW IT WORKS.

            ‘Tis not the many oaths that makes the truth, but the plain single vow that is vow’d true.” William Shakespeare, All’s Well That Ends Well

            Without a doubt, the most overlooked and abused object during an election season is the Oath of Office. When was the last time you heard the Oath to uphold and defend our Constitution and Bill of Rights mentioned in a political debate; on the evening news or by any of the so-called pundits in the media?

            In today’s world, one must exhibit their ability to perform the job they have applied for, usually in the form of a test or examination; a driver’s license; a teaching certification; license to practice medicine; contractor’s license; POST certification; a concealed carry permit and many more. All these require a working knowledge of the job they have applied for or are being employed to do and some form of examination or test to demonstrate knowledge and application of the principals involved. Yet, for the literally hundreds of thousands of politicians, public officials, law enforcement personnel and government bureaucrats, there is no examination given on what is the most important and sometimes the only requirements of their jobs.

            In the Oath of Office taken by politicians, bureaucrats, lawyers, judges, prosecutors, law enforcement personnel and other so-called public servants, the primary object which requires that oath is the Constitutions of the United States and the State in which they perform their duties. No one taking this sacred oath should be allowed to assume any job or position if they cannot demonstrate a working knowledge of the single most important aspect of their job.

            Would you be upset if you discovered the doctor who was about to perform life-saving surgery on your child had never passed any test or examination of knowledge and/or proficiency of the procedure they were about to perform? How safe would you feel knowing the pilot of the plane you are about to board for a cross country flight had never actually flown a plane before, but, had taken an oath claiming they knew how? How secure would you be if you were about to make your first skydiving jump from 10,000ft and was told the person who packed your chute had never packed a chute before, had no prior knowledge of how to do it correctly, but was a member of the same political party as you?

            But these are life and death situations, you say! Need I remind you of the words from our Declaration of Independence?

            “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Emphasis added)

            Trusting those we elect to adhere jealously to their sacred oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States and the State Constitution where they reside, against all enemies, foreign and domestic, while not knowing or caring if they have any knowledge of those documents has led to a tyrannical, out of control, totally centralized, socialist government. A government which has created so much debt our children, grand-children and great grandchildren will be virtual slaves to those who hold that debt.

            In 1863, then Secretary of the Treasury, Salmon P. Chase, stated to a group who were questioning the ever rising war debt and how it would be repaid, “The very land of this country, every inch of soil, is collateral on that debt.” When you look around and see the gradual confiscation of land and natural resources by bureaucratic agencies such as the Bureau of Land Management and the US Forest Service, along with mortgage based securities used to shore up the stock market and guarantee the billions of dollars in fiat money the Federal Reserve sinks into the market each month, perhaps you can understand the words of Secretary Chase and the purpose of Section IV in the never properly ratified 14th Amendment, which states:

            “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law… shall not be questioned.”

            Simply stated, the land you think you own, in many cases putting your blood, sweat, tears and life’s savings into, is listed as collateral for our ever increasing national debt along with our Public Lands of course. We got here by not caring if those we elect know anything of the objects of their sacred oaths of office.

            During the War for Southern Independence, the oath morphed into an oath of allegiance to government rather than to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. That is how the oath is interpreted by the vast majority of our elected officials and bureaucrats today, much to the detriment of the actual purpose of that oath.

            Once people believe their sacred oath is to the government, as opposed to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they, by default, believe any and all actions of the government are legitimate and must be followed. These actions are most often referred to as “laws” or “regulations.” Their lack of knowledge is compounded when they mistakenly believe that any law or regulation passed by that government is the supreme law of the land; an idea that is often repeated by those who intentionally bastardize Article VI Section 2 of our Constitution to their own selfish intentions and agendas.

            Our Founders like Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and writers like Frederic Bastiat saw and understood how tyrants would pervert the law and regulations to their own profit and beliefs. Jefferson said of Rightful Liberty:

            “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” (Emphasis mine)

            And here Bastiat explains the perversion of law:

            “…law by no means confines itself to its proper functions. And when it has exceeded its proper functions, it has not done so merely in some inconsequential and debatable matters. The law has gone further than this; it has acted in direct opposition to its own purpose. The law has been used to destroy its own objective: It has been applied to annihilating the justice that it was supposed to maintain; to limiting and destroying rights which its real purpose was to respect. The law has placed the collective force at the disposal of the unscrupulous who wish, without risk, to exploit the person, liberty, and property of others. It has converted plunder into a right, in order to protect plunder. And it has converted lawful defense into a crime, in order to punish lawful defense.” (Emphasis mine)

            Please note that in the oaths taken by the President, members of Congress, Sheriff’s in Colorado and many other offices which require an oath to our US and State Constitutions, there is no oath to uphold or defend the law. Remember Jefferson’s admonition that the law “is often but the tyrant’s will.”

            Martin Luther King Jr. also alluded to the perversion of law.

            “We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was “legal” and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was “illegal.” It was “illegal” to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler’s Germany…” ~Martin Luther King Jr. Letter from the Birmingham Jail

            It is essential to Rightful Liberty that everyone who takes a sacred oath to our Constitutions has a working knowledge of those documents; they should all be held accountable and each one has an equal obligation to that oath. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court’s oath is no more significant or important than a local Deputy Sheriff or City Police Officer.

            Working correctly and in concert, those oaths would protect the Rightful Liberty of everyone at each level.

            At the point of contact, each member of law enforcement should have a working knowledge of the Constitution and the individual rights of those whom they serve.
            Should the officer violate the rights of the individual, the District Attorney who prosecutes the case has the power to dismiss such cases where the rights of the citizens are violated. Knowledge of the limits placed on government by our constitutional rights is critical at this level.
            As prescribed by our Bill of Rights, the case should then be placed in the hands of a Grand Jury to not just determine possible guilt but also the constitutionality of the law and the circumstances of arrest and/or the validity of warrants; search and arrest.
            Should the violation of rights escape the first three stages, then a judge with a working knowledge of the Natural Laws mentioned in our Declaration of Independence would have it within their power to dismiss the charges.
            Should the first three checkpoints fail then it is of vital importance those who sit on juries be well versed in our US and State Constitutions. At no time should they be dependent on the Judge or the DA to explain to them the law and whether that law is indeed constitutional. This fifth step places the determination of constitutionality back in the hands of the people where it belongs.

            No Oath or Vow in itself contains the establishment of truth. That oath is a testimony of the swearer’s intent to honor their word in fulfillment of that promise. If they have little to no knowledge of that which they swear to do, how will they know they have broken their sacred oath and how will “we the people” know if we also do not have that knowledge?

            A strict adherence to the principles of our Constitution and Bill of Rights would not provide a perfect social environment, but it would create a society that honors Rightful Liberty and a government that does not saddle our posterity with a smothering debt they can never hope to pay.

            The next time you visit with your children or grandchildren, be sure and explain to them how their futures are indeed grim, with very little hope for prosperity, because you did not take the time to understand your obligations as a citizen and your propensity to elect people because they called themselves this or that or because they belonged to your chosen political party without a passing thought to strict adherence to their Sacred Oaths.

            When a candidate tells you it is their duty to enforce any and all laws passed in this country—-be afraid, be very afraid. They are admitting publicly the Sacred Oath they will take means nothing and at some point in time they will violate your rights and/or seize your property.

          • Aaron E

            Tell that to the tens of thousands of families destroyed by a drug-addicted member or death from drug overdose or drug violence. You seem to argue the “don’t do anything is better” argument, without any concern about why someone might actually want to fight the impossible fight.

          • dannye

            Drug violence is purely the result of the drug war distorting market price for desired goods. Economists across the board agree on this. The US treats drug addiction with incarceration instead of rehabilitation, which leads to death and destruction. Doctors across the board agree on this.

            The correct response is to do the right thing, not “do nothing”. Your “impossible fight” is simply doing the wrong and dumb thing.

          • Bill

            Do you really want 600,000 American cops to individually decide what statutory laws they will or will not enforce? You want them to ignore the legislative branch of government, the one elected by the citizens of the country?

          • dannye

            It’s called having a conscience, all individuals have one. Supposedly.

          • Bill

            According to the 3 days of psych testing I had to go through to get into my job, I have a conscience. There are crimes I’m less likely to go hunting for, but I really don’t see your point. Oh, wait, you’re going to bring up the Katrina gun confiscation fiasco, Go ahead, it’s a great example of how the system works: government does something illegal, and the courts put a stop to it.

          • dannye

            The topic on hand is plenty, the gross overuse of militiarized SWAT and and their questionable tactics.

            You read about that story of a toddler in Georgia in toddler who was burned to a crisp by a SWAT flashbang? Check the updates, not only is the police refusing to pay for the medical bills, the DA is trying to charge their target (who was not even in the house) with what the police did to the baby, and he simultaneously ruled the raid justified.

            How many of those SWAT cops quit because of their own pained conscience? Zero, because they projected their own guilt onto the “evil” drug dealer whom the DA conveniently pinned the blame onto.

            The government rules its own actions legal, and the courts rubber-stamped the decision. The system truly works. Magic.

          • Bill

            Dude, sometime life serves you a crap sandwich. No one knows how many times warrants get served without an incident, we get the address right, sometimes the guy meets us at the door and surrenders…..but sometimes life isn’t perfect. You can cherry-pick all the bad cases you want and there is still no evidence that it represents the norm.

            Tell us your stance on the Boston Bomber apprehension. Cops would have saved a lot of ammo and not shot each other if they just had a K9 leap the gunwale and drag his ass out. How dangerous could the guy be? He killed his own co-conspirator, and the really skilled bomb makers were probably just laughing at how few people those two losers actually killed and injured. But hindsight’s always 20/20.

            Graham v Connor, Tennessee v Garner – look them up

          • dannye

            The incinerated toddler raid was based on information from a CI (or a paid rat) and the police failed to do the most basic of surveillance before throwing a flashbang into the garage. But let’s just ignore all of that and say the incident was a horrible accident. How hard is it to confess to making a mistake? Apparently, it is very hard.

            As for the Boston Bomber, did you see these pictures of totally unprofessional behavior. I wonder what the result would have been if the people of Boston actually resisted the warrantless searches of their homes after their illegal expulsion. Blood on the streets, or the government acknowledging the illegality of their actions?

            So where’s the probably cause for the cop aiming directly at an unarmed citizen, or how does objective reasonableness justify a bullet hole in a chair, in regards to those two court cases. Of the numerous documented instances of police overreach in Boston, literally nothing happened, because the government rules itself justified in every single case. The system, it works.

          • dannye

            The incinerated toddler raid was based on information from a CI (or a paid rat) and the police failed to do the most basic of surveillance before throwing a flashbang into the garage. But let’s just ignore all of that and say the incident was a horrible accident. How hard is it to confess to making a mistake? Apparently, it is very hard.

            As for the Boston Bomber, did you see these pictures of totally unprofessional behavior. I wonder what the result would have been if the people of Boston actually resisted the warrantless searches of their homes after their illegal expulsion. Blood on the streets, or the government acknowledging the illegality of their actions?

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I0Be2QgsXGs/UXflwe__PPI/AAAAAAAAYpY/oG3zLBvBdTs/s1600/Boston_Martial-Law_1.jpg
            http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/wall-620×510.jpeg

            So where’s the probably cause for the cop aiming directly at an unarmed citizen, or how does objective reasonableness justify a bullet hole in a chair, in regards to those two court cases. Of the numerous documented instances of police overreach in Boston, literally nothing happened, because the government rules itself justified in every single case. The system, it works.

          • Bill

            I think that the people of Boston were smart enough to realize that there was a larger problem at hand, what are called “exigent circumstances,” that sometimes require immediate action and that to delay in order to get a warrant would put more lives at risk.

            I don’t know the context for the first picture, but how else do you determine if someone is armed other than to look at them? Was the cop aimed in for a fraction of a second, or ten minutes? I’d prefer my guys not use a scope if they can avoid it, but again, life moves fast, and it’s a habit a lot of younger guys picked up overseas. And cops miss, and some rounds go through and through. I can cite a case in which a cop was killed by a round fired by another cop, that passed through the perp. That sucks, but life isn’t perfect. Thank God no one but the bad guy was hurt. Well no one except for the MIT cop they had killed earlier.

            You are going to believe what you want, regardless, so I hope you find a planet with peace and unicorns and rivers of beer where you can be happy and make up your own rules. The rest of us will just have to muddle by with reality.

            One point you almost have right: “How hard is it to confess to making a mistake? Apparently, it is very hard.” Given the litigious nature of American society, only a moron with no interest in self preservation is going to do that. Look up the settlement in that case and tell us what the city paid out in compensation. Which would you prefer: an apology and no cash, or no apology and a big pile of money?

          • dannye

            Standard government procedure:
            1. Disarm the people.
            2. Claim exigent circumstances as they cower helplessly.

            Boston Strong indeed.

            Give the police an inch and they’ll take a mile. Exigent circumstances for an entire neighborhood? Defining a massive search area with literally no evidence the suspect was inside (turns out he wasn’t)? Hardly the reasonable criteria that the exigent circumstances law requires. Soon we’ll have exigent circumstances applied to the entire country and you’ll be cheering that too.

            I do find it amusing that your reality is a police state that is justified by problems of its own making. It’s like Nazis telling Jews to deal with the Holocaust as it is happening, because it’s legal reality.

            By the way, in regards to the incinerated toddler in Georgia, there has been no settlement and no admission of guilt.

          • Bill

            Disarm the people? Have you actually seen the increase in gun sales over the last 10 years? How does that jibe with the government trying to disarm the people?

            And speaking of laws, ever hear of Godwin’s?

          • dannye

            It’s Boston, not the US as a whole. A proper homeowner would deal with a half-dead teenager with a handgun himself instead of cowering in his home while begging for the police.

            In the bizzare world of Boston, such cowardice is considered “Boston Strong”.

            Instead of citing a joke from the internet, feel free to explain why your version of American Fuhrerprinzip is any different from the German version.

          • Bill

            I can’t, you have me beat, it’s like listening to the drunk in the back seat babbling on his way to jail.

            So now your saying only Boston is being disarmed, and the citizens should’ve battled the cops while they were searching for the bomber, but they were all pussies? And any REAL American would have strolled out back and popped, that means arrested, the kid himself? I know you aren’t much on the rule of law, but maybe that citizen would have been better “protected” if the police rolled up in a BearCat and provided the “service” of transporting him to jail.

          • dannye

            Did I say the citizens should be battling the cops? Nope. Nice try though. Sounds like you’re the one who is drunk.

            A real American would have simply called the police to have him picked up after holding him at gunpoint since he was half dead from blood loss. Alas, the strong people of Boston cannot even manage that.

            As for services rendered, don’t forget those pictures I linked of the police “servicing” the people of Boston by sweeping them with their rifles, ordering them out of their own homes with hands high in the air, and searching their homes without a warrant.

            Notice how politicians love to preach about the “rule of law”? Here’s a hint on why: it’s because they write the laws. Maybe you should reconsider the supposed benefits of worshiping the rule of *their* law.

          • Dannye it’s not the police refusing that would come from the mayor, city council and city attorney. The police are out of the decision process once the event is over.

          • dannye

            Like I said they can always quit.

            As long as they continue to collect a paycheck and follow orders they are as culpable as the politicians themselves.

        • valorius

          I grew up in and have worked the worst areas of killadelphia. All this swat tacticool gear is way overboard.

          I mean camo pants? Stupid.
          6-8 extra mags? Total overkill

          Regular cops in regular uniforms with helmets, sticks, tazers and pepper spray is the appropriate response against US citizens.

          This is not Mogadishu, the cops are not delta force.

          • big daddy

            Until you need to use it, it is not fun to run out of ammo when someone is shooting at you. I am amazed at the basic firearm and LE protocols that even supposedly pro gun people are ignorant of or ignore for their own agendas. Camo clothing was designed for use in this type of situation for tactical purposes. What is the difference if they wear camo or blue or black? Would it be OK then if they wore the same clothing but in pink? If they had to find cover and concealment in a firefight camo would work well in that environment, it is NOT totally urban there.

          • valorius

            Theyre cops…they do not need 200rds of ammo, its completely ridiculous.

            Stl is not mogadishu.

            The camo is utterly ridiculous. Its not even a good scheme for urban.

            Im an ex infantryman, i didnt carry that much bs even when US forces were facing down the Soviet 3rd shock army and guarding the fulda gap.

            It is quite simply ridiculous all the tacticool gadgetry and “operator” gear modern cops have.

          • Do you remember the bank shootout in California years ago? That’s what got the AR’s in police cars as well as carrying 150 rounds.

          • valorius

            Yes, i remember it. If they had ar’s they would have jever needed all the ammo they fired. They fired all those rds because their weapons would not penetrate level IIIA soft armor.

            If they had ar’s the shooting would have been over in seconds as the perps were riddled with high velocity 5.56mm rounds.

            Its not the ar’s im neccesarily opposed to. Its the ridiculous loadout of ammo.

            All that will do is slow a troop down.

            In any case, 12 gauge high velocity. Hard cast lead breneke slugs would work just as well from a 12 gauge, and they wouldnt have had to buy all those new guns.

          • I never had an AR until after that happened. I had a Rem870 with a mix of 00 and slugs.
            The number of rounds was for a worst case deal like LA. It doesn’t really matter how many rounds they carry if they don’t use them.
            I had the misfortune to go up against a guy with an H&R Riesling machine gun. Hell I wish I had an AT4 at that time!

          • valorius

            If the cops had 12 ga high brass hard cast slugs that day, it would have ended much sooner. They all had 00 buck from everything i’ve read. My point is, it was a software (ammo) problem, not a hardware problem.

            Typical us govt response to buy $1000 rifles instead of $1 slugs though, lol.

            8 mags just bulks you up and slows you down needlessly, the standard double mag pouch plus a mag in the weapon, yielding 90rds total is well beyond sufficient.

            Swat guys ares supposed to be highly mobile and quick reacting, i’d be trying to minimize my guys loads as much as possible if i was working on my swat teams load out.

          • Eight mags is a lot of weight. Four mags should be enough and then some.

          • Jon

            Are you really a former infantryman. I recommend you read the BS again your preaching. Oh the cops just needed different type of slugs for their 4 round shotguns against full auto AKs. WTF!!!!! How about this why don’t we just issue shotguns to our troops in Afghanistan also instead of M4s, because your logic indicates a shotgun is equal to an AK. Stupidity!!!!!!

          • valorius

            Yes, im a former infantryman. A 12 ga breneke max barrier penetration…designed for military applications…will defeat a IIIA vest and still penetrate 36″ of gel.

            Some us forces do utilize shotguns, especially for close range combat such as was the case in the LA bank heist.

            Us forces use both the mossberg 590 and benelli m4 shotguns.

            Moron.

          • valorius

            Since you mentioned it, You gotta tell us the Riesling MG story. 🙂

          • Ok I’ll try to keep it short. My partner and I were eating in the back dining room of a restaurant at 1:30am. Two shots are fired and everyone is running from the front out the back and we’re trying to get to the front and handle whatever was going on.
            I get up front first and he was starting toward the front door. He didn’t like African Americans and decided to shoot at them. I brought my revolver up to fire on him and realized he had a derringer and he had no time to reload so I didn’t fire. I was still ahead and went out the door after him as he ran to his car. He opened his car door and instead of jumping in he reached in and began to stand and turn toward me. I knew this wasn’t good. I was close and picked up speed and nailed him against the drivers door. Just before I tackled him I realized he had a 45 cal machine gun(thought it was a Thompson). I just kept him pinned against the door and car frame and honestly beat the tar out of him with an SL20 Streamlight. If I didn’t win this one somebody was going to die. All my hits were to the head because I wanted him out as fast as possible. My partner helped pin him then the suspect went down. I got the gun, called in shots fired and got an ambulance coming for the suspect. He suffered no permanent damage and I’m glad he didn’t die. I was ok with the amount of force under the circumstances. He made no bones about it when we were in the ER watching him. He said he would have killed us all if he could have. His two rounds fired didn’t hit anyone.
            Turns out this guy was organized crime and the Riesling was stolen from the Texarkana, Tx. PD in 1959 (a very long time ago) The Rieslings were given to various police departments when the military got rid of them.
            The gun was loaded with a round chambered safety off and a second mag taped to the first. Those were chambered in 45 acp. ATF came and got it and I never got to shoot the thing. That’s pretty much the short of it. Pretty scary stuff.

          • valorius

            He’s fortunate you didn’t give him a .357 magnum enema.

            Do you know how many years he got?

          • Yea it certainly crossed my mind but I thought if I drop my light and draw he may get loose and we’re back to square one. I knew another blow or two to the head had to knock him out.

            He got like 35 years for that stunt in state circuit court plus federal charges for the automatic weapon plus he was wanted on federal warrants from past crimes he committed. He went to both federal prison in Springfield,Mo. and state prison. He was 49 years old at the time so it’s possible he never got out.

          • valorius

            Good. Too many criminals commit heinous violent crimes and get out again, only to commit more crimes.

            I’d prefer it if more of that type of criminal met their doom at the hands of cops or armed citizens.

          • That was definitely the best part. Knowing he would never get out and try to murder other people!

          • John

            Or the Miami shootout. In that one the perps were really did some damage and were unarmored

          • I remember that one very well also. That propelled the semi auto trend in sidearms. It also got us the 40 and 10mm as well as a lot of research into effective loads. Tactics were greatly changed as well.

          • valorius

            Sometimes “shit happens.” I strike miami up to “the whatever can go wrong will go wrong” phenomenon.

            What really screwed the cops right from the get go was the collision with the older bigger monte carlo the perps were driving. It caused one fed to lose his glasses, and another to lose his revolver.

          • Yep he had his revolver in his lap and it went flying.

          • valorius

            Even without the bad luck, you can have all the gadgets, the best ammo, etc, etc…Sometimes, you just run into a determined ex ranger or some maniacal felon who chooses not to promptly die when you shoot him.

          • There was an incident in the late 70’s or early 80’s.I don’t recall where. The suspect was hit 33 times with 9mm JHP and he kept on coming. It took two slugs to finally put the guy down. You truly never know.

          • valorius

            My home defense shotgun is loaded with Brenneke 1 3/8 oz slugs packing over 3600 ft lbs of energy.

            If i have to shoot someone i don’t want any further debate out of them.

          • El Duderino

            I hope you live out in the country!

          • valorius

            Nope.

          • El Duderino

            Some of those FBI agents had S&W 9mms loaded up with 115gr Silvertips. That gunfight pretty much ended the “high velocity rapid expansion shallow penetration” concept…which has suddenly made a comeback for some reason. Both perps were stopped with spinal hits (CNS). If the bad guys had been armed with HK91s or FALs (and plenty of ammo) it’s possible every one of those agents would have been killed.

          • valorius

            9mm Silver tips are anything but high velocity.

            9mm+p+ High vel rounds have come back because bonded core and solid copper bullet designs prevent the bullet from disintegrating on impact.

          • El Duderino

            They were in 1986.

            Good point about bullet construction…although I still think the science behind heavier bullets is better. Seems to be two camps out there. Heavier & slower bullets seem to lose less oomph when fired from shorter barrels, and flash less. Shooting 100gr +P Pow’rballs from my Solo was very entertaining!

          • valorius

            In 9mm+p+ the 115s will give the most energy, some offerings will top 500 fpe. I think the best weight is 124gr though. You end up with ballistics just a tad lower than typical .357 sig or short barrel .357 mag.

            I like heavy bullets in some calibers, but to me 9mm works better with the extra oomp of mid weight +p+ bullets.

          • El Duderino

            Sounds like a good plan.

            With that said, I read about these “rules” and still live by them:

            1. Easiest way to survive a gun fight is to not be in one. Unless it’s your profession to seek combat, do everything you can to avoid it.

            2. If you know you’re going to get in a gunfight, get a rifle or, as a close second a shotgun.

            3. It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Make sure you can hit the target. A miss with the best ammo out of the best gun does nothing.

          • valorius

            Lol…..yep

          • John here’s a link to the details on the Miami shootout in 1986

            http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/lessons-decades-fbi-miami-shoo

          • k

            Theyre gun nuts…they do not need 200rds of ammo, its completely ridiculous.

            Stl is not mogadishu.

            The camo is utterly ridiculous. Its not even a good scheme for urban.

            Im an ex infantryman, i didnt carry that much bs even when US forces were facing down the Soviet 3rd shock army and guarding the fulda gap.

            It is quite simply ridiculous all the tacticool gadgetry and “operator” gear gun nutts have.
            slippery slope dbag. you sound like an anti gunner. ive been shot at on patrol before and if I want to wear camo ill fkn wear camo guess why? its my right as an American citizen just like its yours. stop with the double standards and cognitive dissonance. I owned camo, body armor, and an AR-15 long before I ever became a police officer, and I thank god I have it now. the average “gunnut” has more guns and gear than the average LEO. if you don’t believe me check out a gear thread on ar15.com.

          • DZ

            Ahem, it sounds like you are projecting a bit.

            You are glad to have armor because the the average “gun nut” has more guns and gear than you?

          • big daddy

            I was there too on the Fulda Gap, we had M1, M113, ITVs and 50cal, m60 and so on. So no I just carried 15 round on guard duty. So lets arm the police with that and let them carry 30 rounds.

          • valorius

            The MRAP’s the cops have actually have much heavier armor than a 113.

          • big daddy

            OK but no Dragon missile and 50 cal so what’s your point? or TOW missiles!!!

          • valorius

            Im sure if the cops could make any sort of reasonable argument for having TOW missiles, they’d have them. Lol.

            The dragon was a death trap for the operator! o.O

          • I think I saw one MRAP but I don’t recall who got it. Most of the vehicles are just lightly armored four door trucks with no mounted weapons. Texas DPS has a boat with four M-240’s mounted on it. They cruising the border though and heavier weapons are a good idea.

          • valorius

            If it was up to me the first cavalry division would be securing our southern border, m1’s, bradleys, apaches and all.

          • It’s going to be darn near impossible without some serious border coverage and weapons to match the cartels.

          • valorius

            I dont think it will ever happen due to political realities. The dems have too much to lose by closing the border.

          • valorius

            Did you survive being shot at on patrol because you had camo on? Or was it the 8 mags for your AR that saved you?

          • Comprehension

            Apparently you have no comprehension of your role as a servant to …the People. By accepting the responsibility of “protecting and serving” the public, you are held to a higher level of accountability and responsibility…the first being a clear understanding of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of this Country and your State, and most importantly, the Bill of Rights. Remember, as you ride your high horse through the streets fearing gun nuts and the people you took a job to serve, that the Constitution limits YOUR authority in uniform, the Bill of Rights guarantees …the People basic RIGHTS which cannot be infringed and the Declaration of Independence assures that Americans are a free and sovereign people.

          • Jon

            Comprehension,
            It appears you have no comprehension of the role of a public servant. When one become a public servant they are no less a citizen and still have a right to protect themselves like every other citizen. Those documents you cite protect them just like they protect you. Also learn your history correctly the Declaration of Independence is not an equal standing document with the Constitution.

          • Comprehension

            Jon, where did I equalize the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution? I made it VERY clear that one LIMITS the authority of government, including government employees (I.e. Public servant), and the other assures Americans are sovereign individuals. On the other hand, the most BASIC role of a public servant is to SERVE the public…hopefully with common sense and logic. And no, the Constitution does not protect the government…it limits the authority and power of government. Good try though.

          • Jon

            Now your an ex infantryman, how much ammo do you need. I guess if 200 rounds is to much for the police than it is to much for everyone else including you now your a civilian again. Limiting LE is a slippery slope because if the police do not need it than you do not either. After all did the police loose their 2nd amendment rights because they pinned on a badge. Nothing but stupidity from some who call themselves pro 2nd amendment.

          • valorius

            Ive always been an ex infantryman….

            There is no legitimate law enforcement reason to carry 200rds of ammo per individual trooper. Period.

          • Stijn Van Damn

            The problem with camo, and all this military weaponry is that it turns cops into a paramilitary force.

            And they should not be paramilitary, but cops.
            To Serve and protect, not search and destroy.

          • Bill

            There isnt even a working definition for what “militarization” means. The police have ALWAYS followed a paramilitary model in rank, structure, discipline, etc, all the way to the days of the Roman Centurions.

            The police are likely less “military”now than in the past. Agencies still have Thompsons and BARs purchased at the local hardware store in the 1930s. Armored vehicles date back just as far.

            Look at the case law and increases in social sciences training in police Academies since the days of rampant civil unrest in the Civil Rights & Viet Nam War era.

            What separates the police and military is the legal underpinnings involved in the use of force. We, the police, have very restrictive legal and ethical guidelines we have to follow. What do you think the response to an incident like the rioting in Ferguson would have been in Russia or the Third World?

          • valorius

            I think it would have been very similar, but with more “stick action.” And maybe some water cannon for good measure.

          • Good points and people probably don’t like it—at least some. We were told on day one at the academy that the PD was a paramilitary structured organization.

          • big daddy

            Most all government workers are organized and treated in a military way. They are in fact an army, it can be the post office which has it’s LE, Transit which also has it’s own LE, notice a trend. All paramilitary.

          • valorius

            The police are not military. They are “the civilian authority.”

          • john

            The concern is that some think the police believe they have more rights to weapons of war then the citizen..Taint so ,we have our own amendment and more rights to w.o.w. than any police or army .

          • We had navy blue BDU–much better. We had 4 mags. There were also two units. One handled riot situations in regular uniform, shields, gas and batons.
            In situations where shots have been fired the SRU team replaced this group. Do former Rangers count:-)

          • valorius

            Rangers lead the way!

        • Hank Seiter

          Just keep in mind, virtually everything the Nazis did was according to their “law” … the law of despotism. I have no problem with keeping the peace and local law enforcement, but when despotism flows from the top down and non-military law enforcement agencies become thoroughly militarized, then the potential for them to become little more than jackbooted brownshirts increases exponentially.

          Man was NOT made for law, law was made for man. The leftist legalism that is sweeping this nation under the pretense of maintaining law and order is downright disturbing. Necessity is ALWAYS the language of tyrants, big daddy.

          BTW, Ferguson wasn’t about the militarization of local law enforcement but rather about some entitled perp thug who thieved, bullied the store owner, assaulted a police officer when confronted on the street and when it went back for seconds got his ass shot for his trouble. Justice served in my view. Too bad this criminal administration is politicizing this justifiable killing and has empowered the criminal liar Eric Holder to come up with some way to charge the police officer in order to pander to a bunch of entitled minorities who continue lying about what a “gentle giant” or “teddy bear” this perp was.

    • dennis

      What is the problem with the flag patches? Nearly everyone has a patch nowadays. I understand your point about MARPAT, but as a European in the states I can say: flags are everywhere.

      • They probably never took the flags off when they made them surplus

        • Stan

          Those vest aren’t surplus, nor are the pants. I can’t find anything besides the helmets that might have ever been USGI.

          • Nope vest are never surplus. When the expiration date comes along it’s time to buy new ones.
            The warehouse I mentioned was divided up into different areas. Some were for LEO’s while a lot was general surplus any city could buy from.
            They never listed the LEO gear they had.

    • dan citizen

      they get the gear surplus, they don’t get to pick the camo pattern.

      Here is a neat tool to see what surplus they received and it’s cost.

      http://bridge.caspio.net/dp.asp?AppKey=36701000b255adcfe6ca4b13a8a4

      • True surplus gear is super cheap or even free from the feds. They have a warehouse in Springfield, IL, we used to go to and get odds and ends from.

        • Stan

          To the best of my knowledge the Marines aren’t selling the MARPAT uniforms surplus. Once again nothing besides the helmets in those photos look USGI.

          • I’m just going on past experience. Maybe these guys had them purchased for them but it was common to get surplus.

          • Stan

            Maybe they just happen to be employed by an agency in a major metro area that has/had a number of modern uniform and gear manufacturers in it. One of the nation’s largest military/LEO apparel companies, Propper, was located in the next county over. FYI: Propper makes uniforms in a similar pattern to MARPAT but without being the same. As to the gear, the old Eagle Industries tactical gear company was located in that county and the gear retailer/design house SKD Tactical and the gear manufacturer First Spear are based in that county.

          • There are a lot of companies making gear doing business in the area.

      • Stan

        There are 90 municipalities in Saint Louis County alone many of which have their own police departments. The photographs here are of officers from just one departments tactical team. According to the main newspaper for the area this is all of the surplus gear those departments:

        “According to federal data, various police agencies in St. Louis County received 12 5.56mm rifles and six .45-caliber pistols between Aug. 2, 2010, and Feb. 13, 2013. They also received 15 “reflex” gun sights, four night vision devices and three night sights, as well as a $10,000 explosive ordnance robot, three helicopters, seven Humvees and three cargo trailers. One helicopter alone was originally worth $200,000.

        State data obtained in 2012 show that St. Louis County police received at least two helicopters, computer equipment, two old SUVs and roughly 20 Kevlar helmets since 2007.”
        No where in there is armor vests or camouflage pants listed. Those are not surplus. Nor MRAP’s by the way.

    • Tom Stone

      USG classifies the “Federalist Papers” as subversive literature.
      Pick up Rod Balko’s book “Warrior Cops” to get a better idea of what these fools are doing. And never forget that the USA contains almost 310 Million potential terrorists, which is why the NSA is doing everything it can to keep us safe.

      • dp

        Short of comments on “subversive” literature and implication of term “terrorist”, this makes you think: WHAT is actually the LAW and how it’s enforcement is applied. Is law per say an accepted set of rules or is it imposed code by state power? It all depends how population at large perceives that; you cannot argue with public opinion. The general notion (and largely correctly) is that who would oppose the “law” must be nuts, right. But many are forgetting that law itself is subject of change and it should reflect on needs of society which by itself is subject of socio-economical change.

        On my personal side, although I do not live in the U.S. but its northern neighborhood, I am still concerned. If pattern sets in its gonna be quickly applied right across N/A, be it warranted or not. I follow long-term trends and I know it is that way. Some stuff coming from South bounced off here too; there are connections.

    • Marvin

      read your comment dummy. US police officers. Guess they shouldn’t fly the flag at the station either, due to them not being military. Heaven forbid if 4th of july has everyone NON military wearing flags. “patriotic”

    • American flag patches are common on most police uniforms. No they are semi-autos.

      • USMC03Vet

        Are there foreign police working in the United States or something? Police officers wearing US flag military like patches is redundant and shows just like other US military uniform items being worn of militarization and unnecessary idea that they are somehow on the level of our military.

        Seriously last thing I need is to be pulled over by some cop that rivals some stolen valor phony on facebook because he looks like he’s geared up to fire team rush my car because of a broken taillight.

        I’m super pro law enforcement, but it’s getting ridiculous. Hell, some of these officers I’ve been seeing on the news for years now are more geared up for war than I was while at war.

        • XxFAKE_USMC03NotAVet.xX

          As Phil stated, flag patches are common on law enforcement uniforms. This isn’t just something that is specific to the United States, I am sure some counties and cities will differ though…

        • Wearing a flag patch shows pride in our country or at least that was my view.

          • USMC03Vet

            Let’s be honest here, Phil.

            Flag patches were worn prior, but now the flag patches being worn as shown in the picture are military style aka subdued. There is a difference and just like other military style gear it’s chosen for a reason to portray military image. I don’t think any rational person would think that a police officer isn’t proud of his country especially if they didn’t wear a US flag on their uniform.

            Are you aware that certain large police departments have been caught co opting military decorations for wear on their uniforms as well? It’s an issue…

            http://blogs.militarytimes.com/battle-rattle/2013/07/01/navy-cross-recipient-jeremiah-workman-questions-cops-ribbons-in-trayvon-martin-case/

          • Honestly I don’t see why a subdued flag is a big deal. It means the same thing regardless of the subdued theme.
            Using military awards is stupid. Unlike what the article indicates police do have their own system of awards. Ours were enameled metal ribbons. None that I have look like a military ribbon. I can take a photo if you want to see what they look like.

        • Aaron E

          So a cop, firefighter, or paramedic can’t show American pride by having an American flag on their uniform? That seems dumb and short-sighted to me.

          You say you’re “super pro law enforcement” but I don’t see anything positive in your posts. Maybe you live in small town USA and there is very little real crime. Perhaps you should broaden your opinion by doing a ride-a-long with a mid size or large metropolitan police force to see for yourself that the challenges are more than you might imagine.

          Mayberry died, when the Andy Griffith Show went off the air.

    • It’s probably surplus and that’s what they were given. Dark blue or OD green is pretty much the standard. I know my gear was navy blue—-with a flag:-)

      • valorius

        The best bang for the buck swat/shtf outfits imo are regular old surplus US flight suits in od.
        Theyre nomex fire resistant to 900f, have thermal/ir suppression, and cost $30 a piece on ebay. Best part, they slip right on in seconds over your regular uniform or clothes.

        If its good enough for $10 million dollar fighter pilots, its good enough for the rest of us too. 😉

    • GUNxSPECTRE

      Are we bagging on American flag patches? Calm down there bro.

      It’s the same reason why civilians who are taking firearms courses wear American flag patches. It’s just tacticool swag or patriotism. Either or.

    • They don’t have any say in what they wear. Decisions like that come from a lot higher up the chain of command.

    • XxFAKE_USMC03NotAVet.xX

      You do realize MARPART is just camoflouge right? the Corps doesn’t own a specific clothing pattern…Also your comment has about as much depth as a kiddie pool, you could probably pull this opinion from a quick Google search. So your 4 year service is over and your now a Vet? Nice…

    • Nicks87

      Sounds like you’re just jealous.

    • Jim Hartwig

      Sooooo, this is what we have to look forward to as we get ready for the government to impose its idea of behavior control upon the citizenry! VERRRRRRY INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Pete Sheppard

      The camo is most likely ‘Digicam’, a non-branded version of MARPAT (without the EGAs)

      • Bill

        Really, How many citizens in the US have walked up to a service member to report a theft? How does the military keep it straight seeing how the Marines, Fashion leaders that they are, started the trend towards branch specific uniforms, so that now each branch has it’s own pattern, and variations for climate and terrain. You do know that a bill has been introduced in Congress to stop the madness and require one cammie pattern for everybody right? How did we ever survive “Nam, wearing plain OD?

        I guess the MPs will really have it rough.

    • big daddy

      Fools……are you kidding….those are the fools that you get when you call 911. So do not ever call 911 so you don’t have to deal with those fools.

      • The same ones that went into the twin towers knowing there was a good chance they wouldn’t be coming out. Police, Firemen they all went in anyway.

    • VetCop

      I agree with you except for the American patch. Many PDs have American patches on their uniform.

  • Quach

    The RMR and WML on the AR10 is not puzzling….pretty self explanatory.

    • John

      I saw that and was like hey…. I recognize that setup….

  • Brianna

    Im pretty sure every LE I’ve ever talked to have been more pro gun then not. Except maybe in certain select major cities even then its more a mixed bag then you’d think. They like their guns and like their families and friends armed too, way more then trying to keep bad guys away from guns and banning out right. They know criminals will get them anyway or so the conversation has gone. I think its cool seeing some of their gear and as long as its just small swat teams with happy triggers I for one don’t care. Now I wanna see some pics of that guy with the Daniel defense and T1 Aimpoint on here!

    • sid_goldberg

      They will do exactly as they are told as long as their paychecks clear.

    • sid goldberg.

      They will do what they are told as long as the paychecks clear.

  • sid_goldberg

    Wow-just like The Battle of Kursk!

  • sid goldberg.

    TFB is run by a bunch of cop ball licking chicken s h i t mother f uc k e r s. Phil- is that you – you donut-inhaling taxpayer titty sucker that took my posts down? I’d call you a Nazi but those badasses duked it out all over Europe and didn’t hide behind some tin badge like the cops in the US.

    • big daddy

      Sid you are way off on this, I’m from a Jewish heritage and I do not agree with what you are saying at all!!!

      • sid goldberg.

        Us J-bags don’t always agree

        • big daddy

          You’re still way off on this Sid, way off.

      • LOL–if that’s the best he can do to insult me it won’t work. I’ve been called a lot worse. He’s just another run of the mill racist.

    • dan citizen

      Do I detect some negative feelings?

    • ColaBox

      Sid what’s the hatred from, got a story behind it?

  • sid goldberg.

    Wow-just like the Battle of Kursk.

  • CaptainSlaughterboard

    Yeah, that AR-10 must be SR-25. From another view, it has no forward assist.
    And strangely…it has RMRs on both sides.

    • Fitz

      In the first photo at top, you are seeing the RMR over the top of the barrel, light is on the left side. Look closer before taking time to post. (Also even if I’m wrong, never see two, so worst case scenario it was getting flopped around.)

      • big daddy

        Light on left, optic on right, look closer.

  • dan citizen

    Holy cow. somebody should point out you can order single items from a catalog. Overly adorned rifles trying to fit every scenario.

    These guys would be better off spending some training time learning muzzle discipline.

  • Jacen

    I don’t think it would be called an SR25 because it’s not set up to look like one. It’s just an cop’s personalized AR-10.

  • Lance

    Nice gun porn, brought to you by the US taxpayer.

  • Fubar

    thats definitely not an SR25, its a MA 10 billet upper and lower from mega arms

  • Miles Vining

    What is with all political discussion here? This is a gun site and not for snide political remarks. I wrote this blog post to highlight the interesting small arms in use by the Police in Ferguson. I couldn’t care less about Michael Brown or the demonstrations, not that I don’t, but in this regard I’m not looking at the political side of things. If you don’t have something to say about the equipment or uniforms shown here, take your comments elsewhere.

    • big daddy

      Welcome to the internet.

    • valorius

      Here is my comment on the equipment:

      It is too tacticool and they have way too much of it.

  • B.E. – STL local.

    I believe the “wooden” 870s are infact orange synthetic furniture for less lethal rounds. Bean bags etc.. I’ve seen these in the news lately.

    Those aren’t full auto, I work at a dealer in St. Louis and all those guys are St. Louis county SRT guys. Cammo has a place when you’re stealthily moving to a better position to rescue hostages.

    • valorius

      Camo only works when youre not moving.

      Its ridiculous.

    • Yes they are indeed St Louis County PD SRT. They don’t carry full auto in the M4. They have some sub guns that are but not the right tool for this situation.
      Those 870’s do have orange stocks for firing rubber bullets. They certainly have fired a good number over the last week and half.

  • John

    OK, I understand that we are JUST supposed to look at the neat guns but…does anyone else find it a little disconcerting that we are now comparing WARS in other parts of the world with civil unrest in the U.S.? So these guys dress up like the military, have armament like the military, and are trained like the military…who would ever think they would start treating U.S. citizens just like enemy combatants? This is a VERY dangerous path we are headed down. Dress a kid up like a cowboy and he’s gonna want to ride a horse. Dress a cop up like a killing machine and….well, you get the point…I hope.

  • Guys I’ve made this suggestion before but here goes. If you have a low opinion of officers or just curious and you live in a good size city go to the PD and ask to do a ride along on a Saturday night in the bad part of the city. It’s a real eye opener. I’ve had people do ride alongs and their opinion changed after that 8 hours. You’ll have to sign a waiver but most PD’s have this program. It’s worth your time.

    • valorius

      I hear what you are saying, however, I would counter that all cops should have to deal with an arrogant power tripping sociopath cop at least once to see what its like to be on the other end of the equation.

      Many of us have. Once you deal with one of these bullies, it alters your view on cops and interactions with them for the rest of your life.

      My Ex partner is a philly pd, but used to be a transit cop. He got pulled over in jersey, and when he produced his id, the jackass jersey cop berated him and asked him if he got his badge from a cracker jack box, before writing m several tickets. He wont admit it, but i o that incident was the reason my buddy went out for philly pd shortly after.

      • Yes there are guys out there that should be driving trucks or something no doubt about it. I ran into a state trooper who was a real jerk but I just chalked it up to one of those guys that hated his job or maybe he was just badge heavy.Nobody gets more upset about an officer like that than another officer.

        • valorius

          I can assure you that someone sitting in a cell with their jaw wired shut and staring down a stack of bogus charges leveled by a dirty or power hungry sociopathic cop gets more upset about it than anyone else.

          Whenever youve dealt with a citizen and were getting all kinds of inexplicable fear or attitude or anger….that was probably the reason why.

          I dont for the life of me understand why cops protect bad cops. They make the good cops job 1000x more difficult.

      • Aaron E

        Was the stopping cop a State Trooper? Unfortunately most are famous for being jerks, but that is trained into them from the beginning “… my highway” BS. That behavior is pathetic and should be changed through the complaint process and political pressure.

        However, if you’re buddy got “several” tickets, one might want to ask how badly he was driving to warrant multiple tickets. And then trying to “badge” his way out of them … yeah, I could see another cop getting peeved about something like that. Sounds like bad behavior on both parts.

        • valorius

          When he pulled out his wallet and opened it to produce his license, the cop saw his badge and started in on him.

          He was speeding in his classic mustang gt. The cop wrote him for speeding, tinted windows, and improper muffler type.

          I think it was just a regular county cop, the ones that sit by the bridges over the del river where the speed limit drops abruptly waiting to write tickets.

    • Nicks87

      ^^This. If they only knew about the BS we have to deal with everyday they might not be so quick to judge. I did a traffic stop on two guys once, with full auto AKs in their back seat and enough meth to kill a donkey, who the F*** are you to tell me that I’m not allowed to be equipped to deal with that kind of threat? If I feel it necessary to wear BDUs, full kevlar and carry an AR15 in order to give me a better chance at returning home safely at the end of the day then that is the gear I’m going to roll with. I dont give two s**ts what some keyboard commando has to say about militarization of the police.

      • Beaumont

        When you put on the badge, you are being asked to put your life on the line for the benefit of the citizens. Policing is a tough, crappy job, AS IT SHOULD BE. Your job is meant to benefit others, not yourself. If you want to be safe at all times, find another line of work.

        • Bill

          And that’s why when gunfire breaks out in a school or theater, we run in while sensible people run out. But the vibe I’m getting here is that I shouldn’t bother getting my AR out of the rack or my extra ammo, light and medkit while I’m getting out of the car. And given the odds that I won’t be shot anyway, why should I even wear my concealed armor? It’s too freaking hot. And that back-up gun is always poking me in the wrong places, i’ll just ditch it and figure my pistol will work fine and I’ll drop him with the first shot because that’s what happens in the movies. I wouldn’t want to hand it off to a teacher I recognize from our run-through training during their prep week as being particularly calm and a shooter.

          And if the perp bolts, and he’s wearing jeans and a black t-shirt,it won’t matter if we are wearing French Blue pants and Navy Blue Shirts and the light’s a little bad.

          All this fun, 12 bucks an hour.

        • Nicks87

          What an asinine comment. That’s like saying a construction worker shouldnt wear a hard hat because it’s his job to take risks associated with construction work. Why shouldnt I be able to use the tools that are availible to me if it makes me safer while on the job? By your line of reasoning should I get rid of my vest and sidearm as well?

  • Shawn

    A few articles lately have been a little too close to Politics in my opinion. I’d prefer that this site go back to the ideals it was founded on.

    • Some of it has broached into politics but most have been talking about laws,policies etc. Comments like these on articles such as this one are rare.

      • Shawn

        That might be true Phil, but the “not politics” led me to love this site as much as the “firearms” part did. I have been visiting at least once a week since the day my hunting buddy and I were discussing “Big Bore” rifles and I found thefirearmblog while googling. This place has changed quite a bit since then, but due to politics swirling all around us, I’ve always found the lack of such when coming here refreshing.

        • Make no mistake I don’t like politics any more than you or most of the readers. Getting into an emotionally charged issue like this one and I could see it coming. 99% of the time i’d never let the discussion go this far.

  • Zachary marrs

    Ugh

  • Pietro

    By using these gear, weapons and tactics, it’s clear to me there is a total misunderstanding of what “policing” is.
    By deciding to wear a police uniform, you receive authority and power, but also responsibility. You also know that you are made purposefully recognizable so you can be asked and expected to give help, as well as act as deterrent.
    This makes policemen targets.
    The reaction is to protect them so much that they are invulnerable, to make them look and behave so aggressively that criminals are scared. As well as the non-criminals. This is tactically wrong, as inspires an escalating reaction in the public, not empathy nor trust. And there is a training issue; if a policeman is scared to be a target, well he shouldn’t be a policeman. A fireman is not scared to enter a collapsing building even when he knows his odds are much lower than reasonable.
    What odds of survival does these guys have? Do they need more and more gear? And also, once they are outfitted as assault troops, they put themselves in a lose-lose situation: they might have to use all their force, or they might have to do nothing.
    They need shields and batons, and one small swat team can wait hidden behind the corner.
    Police wins only with authority and by being on the side of the right, not by force.

    • dp

      This is a quality remark, congratulation!
      I understand what you are saying: to obtain the desired effect, there must be balance, not blunt overkill. That leads only to escalation, if not now in future for sure. However and yet, this is sadly happening.
      Here is whole lotta space for deeper thought on subject cause-effect. This is not just about a mid-of-nowhere town in United States, this is about whole of western civilization.

  • mosinman

    It’s really great to see what kind of gear our boys are using overseas! Wait a minute…. Why can’t I find furgeson on the map of Afghanistan?!

  • Maxpower515

    Am I the only one bothered by the fact that he called it a US Optics Sight when it is clearly a Leupold and a monolithic rail when it really is just a JP/VTAC rail system. Also, “most likely free floated”, that’s the purpose of the rail. Lastly, mounting the RMR offset is solely for the purpose of close quarters fighting. You are not going to use a 3x-10x scope for something that is less than 25 yards, but you never know what will happen. You seem like a new guy, probably very nice, but if you are going to post an article like this, try to get it right.

  • jkp

    Just curious – anyone know the standard duty sidearm for the Ferguson PD?

  • Martin Grønsdal

    in effect – what is the point of the 2nd amendment, if this is what you will be up against?

  • dp

    Some applicable historical reference: Kent State shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
    Yes, of course guns are final argument as proven so many times. That time the National Guard’s rifles were semi-auto M14 and they surely did the ‘job’.

    • big daddy

      They used untrained NGs, instead of LE.

  • dp

    Now to the equipment: who are the robo-cops facing? Unarmed ‘peaceful’ protesters, knives wielding ‘thugs’ or anything between? There is equipment to deal with that – tasers and less-than-lethal firearms, water cannons and tear-gas canisters. Any time the enforcement shows up with this kind of ordnance it works clearly against them. How do you think this is interpreted around the world? How do you think this ‘boosts’ already damaged image of United States as place of ‘freedom&democracy’?

    One thing you can be sure of and that is MASS of legal claims by defendants after dust settles down; whatever happened or did not. Who will pay the cost in final count? Let me submit to you – you as taxpayer.

  • The Forty ‘Twa

    The tripod is a Manfrotto not a Montrotto.

    The writer still hasn’t corrected their last article either.

    • Julio

      Thanks, saved me a post… oh, … no it didn’t!

  • Bill

    Interesting how no one has noticed that people were rioting, Gas, Sting Balls, Armored vehicles don’t seem inappropriate. Captain FeelGood from the Highway Patrol takes over, offers group hugs, and…..more rioting.

    I wear commercial MARPAT ’cause it’s a great pattern for where I work. Maybe I should try blaze orange so the bad guys can see me better, that’ll stop them. Actually, I have to, when working roadways, so I don’t get run down by all those highly skilled drivers in our population.

  • Josh

    I am a 15 year veteran police officer. I command a SWAT team. Now that all the disclosure is out of the way here’s my two cents.

    The guys in Missouri don’t handle day to day operations dressed or equipped in the manner pictured. If they do, they are wrong, period. This is a worst day (week +) scenario requiring a different response. Helmets? Hell yes. Bottles, rocks, etc suck. Armored vehicles? I haven’t seen the first “tank” yet. Bring a standard cruiser in to the fray and it will be flipped and on fire before you can blink.

    The same folks who decry their right to owns the same weapons pictured are so quick to anger when a police officer wields one on defense on himself and the rest of the community not raising hell. All this talking out of both sides of your mouth is getting tiresome. Neither you or I are standing there getting beat up by this riotous mob. Maybe think back to all the “what if….happened” conversations that were had with equally gun loving friends. How much ordinance came out of the safe in your scenarios?

    That said many agencies have brought this criticism on themselves. Many have used tactical teams for very benign tasks. I encourage administrators and team commanders to give serious thought to their usage of SWAT and the like. Raiding a bar for underage drinkers, misdemeanor warrant service, etc are not the place for those assets.

    • Agreed the overuse of tactical teams is a bad idea and has consequences none of which are good.

    • Aaron E

      Very well said Josh, from another cop and SWAT team leader.

  • J.T.

    “what appears to be a Knight’s Armament 7.62 SR25”

    Nope.

    Here is the full sized image.

    http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/657752/453575526.0.jpg

    You can clearly see the Mega Arms logo.

  • 3331

    the hand guard on the AR10 is most probably a JP

  • westford86

    Just a couple quick corrections on the SR25 (maybe they have already been addressed in the comments). The rail is obviously a JP, it’s free float but not monolithic (LMT, and Mega are the only true monolithic uppers for the .308 platforms). The scope is OBVIOUSLY a Leupold Mk4. Come one guys, try harder, this is entry level gun nerd stuff.

  • Michael

    Send a SWAT team to deal with people throwing water bottles!!! or people protesting. What do you do with the M4 when you have to grab a demonstrator? Police should not be pointing weapons at people who are peacefully demonstrating.
    Riot squads need different equipment , shields, sticks .
    Tear gas not flash bangs.
    This shows the inefficiency of small American Police forces, a department with 50-100 Officers cannot specialize in everything. They probably receive funding for SWAT, but not riot training.

    • Small departments are the vast majority of officers not the big cities. Federal funding for training has gone down over the years so any specialized training is rare indeed. I know Memphis PD and the Shelby County SO put on training for smaller neighboring departments.

  • big daddy

    I’m really kind of shocked at the anti-police sentiment from a few of the commenters here. It just defies logic and reason. The emotional thinking and lack of reasoning of the grown men commenting is disturbing. Support your police, follow the laws and yes you still will get harassed by an A hole cop but that’s the way it is, smile say have a nice day and move on. It happens and by no means represents all LE. I lived through riots like this one and gang wars, organized crime, drug wars in NYC since the 1950s. I worked in Harlem, grew up in one of the worst area’s in Brooklyn and made it out alive, many didn’t. The police have one tough job, make it easier on them, they are the only line of defense against anarchy. I support the police 100%, if more people did support them much of the problems would not be as severe between police and the population.

    • dannye

      Translation: just bow down and take it and maybe we’ll let you live.

      • big daddy

        Wow, are you kidding……a little dramatic aren’t you…..with the problems in the USA I think they are doing a great job overall. I was in Germany and talk about heavy handed police!!!!….go to a 3rd world country, the military is the police in many ways. You are asking for perfection and anybody with any sense knows that’s impossible. Pick your side, I’ll side with police and the law. The gray area is reality but not realistic.

        • dannye

          Weird how you claim the German police handed but they don’t commit 4-5% of the murders there any given year. Go figure.

      • LOL—be reasonable—

  • Thrasymachus

    The scope in the second picture looks like a Vortex scope and not a US Optics one.

  • Alfred

    You won’t find someone more pro police then me but the militarization aspect has really jumped the shark. It’s going to get walked back and it’s time it should. I used to respect guys like those in the pictures, now I’m thinking Mall Ninja when I see these pictures.

    You can’t make ware on the people you serve and not expect the results they are getting in Ferguson. Looks are important. They want to look like soldiers, they try and talk like them and pretty soon they start feeling like soldiers, making war, not protecting the citizenry of which they are part of.

  • toadboy

    I read the article, which was informative, then all the comments. I will put my two cents in. First, there should be no issue with the U.S. Flag patches. This is the USA, and everyone gets to wear a flag if they want to. Secondly, I agree that Ferguson is not Mogadishu. I am not in Ferguson ( although I drove through there this summer by coincidence ), but I did get to experience Mogadishu in it’s full glory. I think there might be a certain mentality at work where some officers do confuse the two places. And that is a dangerous mentality. I do not envy a police officer working in an urban environment. They need an almost superhuman amount of discipline and patience to be effective. And empathy. Empathy for the citizens they work with and for. When an officer takes off his name tag, covers himself in camo and enforces law from an MRAP, he is going to lose much of that empathy. And the discipline issue comes into play. How many times have we seen an officer, when forced to use his firearm, completely fall apart and panic? As soon as the gun leaves the holster, he starts screaming incoherently, firing wildly, and skittering away on his back. A full mag discharged, and maybe one or two hits. Give that man an M4, put him in front of an angry crowd, and you have potential for a disaster. I don’t think that officer represents the majority of police officers, but there is at least some percentage of cops who absolutely scare me to death. I live pretty close to the town where a toddler got his face blown partly off in a botched raid on a house where the suspect did not live. Those guys were not trained to properly use the tactics and equipment the used in that raid. And they did not do the invetigative work that would have told them that they had the wrong house, and that the house was full of kids. Back to the issue of Ferguson. What was the mission of the guys with the sniper rifles? They seemed to be aiming their rifles at the press and protesters right in front of them. If they were there to defend against a well armed opponent, they would have failed because they were too focused on the CBS camera man to see any real peripheral threats, and they were did not utilize cover. It just looked sloppy to me. I know there are some people reading this who are effective, mature, and disciplined police officers. You are the ones best suited to solve the problems we are all discussing. You probably know a couple of guys who absolutely should not be out there. And you know perfectly well that the tense situation you diffuse is not going to be what is on the news tonight. What is on the news is Officer Albers pointing his M4 at a cameraman’s head screaming that he will blow his f**ing head off. I want to make it absolutely clear that I have tremendous respect for the police. Those guys have a very tough job to do, and don’t get paid enough to do it. With the way some of people in our country act today, the police are who stand between civilization and anarchy. But driving around in an armored vehicle full of machine guns to serve a traffic warrant is not policing. It is playing army. And it is scaring me to death.

  • MIKE

    JP PSC-12 NOT A KNIGHT’S ARMAMENT SR-25.

  • Aaron E

    Wow! What a hot topic, as I knew it would be, but I’m very surprised to see such “anti gun” talk on TFB. I get the freedom-loving gun owner being cautiously suspicious of law enforcement, but to outright decry law enforcement having the tools to respond to the threat they face? Amazing! Did NOT think this blog’s sponsorship would so quickly align with the criminal element.

    When cops arrive and don’t have the proper tools and fail, the public is quick to call them buffoons, and incompetent. However, when they arm themselves with tools to succeed, they are maligned as jack-booted thugs. Definitely a no-win situation, so why not carry the tools so at least they can win against the bad guys while being hated by the public.

    How about this approach:
    Let the cops wear heavy ballistic armor – it can protect against rifle fire
    Helmets can protect against some bullets as well so O.K.
    AR-15’s are loved by TFB, and also by cops – if the situation fits, let the cops use them. They are a great patrol rifle, with decent ballistics for police use, and much more versatile than a shotgun.
    Armored vehicles – O.K. for money trucks, and politicians, but not for cops? Hmmm, why not save the cops from the robbers, cop-killers, and terrorists bullets. I say yes.
    Bearcat like in pictures – $275,000 (basic)
    MRAP – FREE, plus about $2000 in shipment costs – wow local officials being financially frugal and responsible with YOUR money. Not a big fan of the MRAP, but …

    Now for the citizen responsibility:
    Keep tabs on the police use of these “militaristic” items
    Vote your conscious, and speak to your elected officials
    Talk to your local police commanders and demand explanation for these items
    If the answers seem reasonable, and you don’t see an AR-15 toting cop in heavy ballistic vest and helmet popping out of an armored vehicle every day … maybe they’re being cautious and responsible with the use of SWAT.

    Ferguson – police were met with Molotov cocktails, rocks, bottles, and yes … shots being fired. You try standing the line in nothing but a patrol uniform. Appropriate to bring “Special” cops to handle a “special” riot.

    Snipers – better to stop shooters than a shotgun or pistol, however I’m not in favor of the picture above where it appears the sniper is using his weapon optic to scan the area. That’s a NO-NO just like doing so with a different weapon.
    Use binoculars until a threat is located, then go to the scope!

    I’ll enjoy reading the ass chewing I’m sure to get, but I just couldn’t remain quiet after some of the ignorant comments I’ve read.

    Thanks Phil for reminding readers that local cops have faced incredibly challenging armed criminals, and better “tools” would have/have been the big difference.

    • Thank you Aaron I really do appreciate your comment. They were met several nights by molotov cocktails and direct fire. Batons won’t cure that problem.
      I understand people have strong opinions but in most cases I reserve judgement until I’ve walked a mile in a persons shoes. People just don’t understand what it can be like. That’s why I always encourage people to ride along and just get a taste.

  • Jacob Faust

    The 870 in the third pic appears to have the “less lethal” orange furniture.

  • RA564

    I think the AR10 might be mega receivers with JP handguard, meaning someone had to build the rifle, not just customize it. This would imply that it is a personally owned weapon.

  • Leigh Rich

    Not a big deal. After each war the gear gets passed on from the military to Law Enforcement. After WW2 some of the Police Dept still have Tommy guns and carbines.

  • Cavscout

    I won’t say “ahhh they shouldn’t have that and that!” “They’re cops! This isn’t a war zone! Blah blah blah.”
    It’s not our lives in danger there, it’s their’s. They should be able to ‘put on the whole armor of god’ when they suit up and ‘bring it all.’ After all, isn’t better to bring it and not need it? Etc etc.
    Of anything, people could better argue why citizens need any of that gear, which a lot of us have, when most of us do not hold any type of job that would ever utilize the gear or skills. So maybe relax your double standards…

  • Chuckwagon524

    I think what went went wrong in Ferguson and what are people are seeing around the country like after the Boston bombing is not only the gear that’s being deployed but how the police and public view each other. Do camo vs blue BDU’s matter? Not in function, but when you see your local PD looking like an occupying force it doesn’t do much to ease community fears or deescalate tensions. There is a place for SWAT teams, but used very judiciously. After seeing the video of what triggered the riots, it would seem the cops were justified as he kept coming. Suicide by cop? Perhaps I suppose. But if community relations were better maybe this wouldn’t have happened. At its heart it is social issue as well.

    • Chuckwagon524

      I also see these officers on tv brandishing rifles and shotguns at unarmed people and makes me wonder if they have the training for the tacticool gear.

  • pneutin

    The rifle on the tripod is not a Knight’s SR-25, it is a custom build with a Mega Arms MATEN billet upper and lower. I can tell from the contours on the upper and the trigger guard shape on the lower. 🙂

    • BuzzKillington

      Came here to post this. Not even a question that it’s NOT a Knight’s. One doesn’t even really need to know it’s a MA, as much as saying it’s a Knight’s for no reason is important.

  • William Wallace

    The police marksmen with the RMR and flashlight is possibly anticipating armed encounters while getting into position, being ambushed at his position, or exiting his position. It could happen and he has to be ready to fight with his weapon at hand. His weapon is no less handy than the old standard M16A2 or other 20″ full sized AR variant which was used in CQB for a long time.

    As for the camo and extra mags… while I don’t like those various schemes for urban wear, it’s their department. I prefer a solid BDU color like olive drab or navy myself… maybe even khaki. I carry 4 pistol mags and 4 rifle mags total, on me and in the car. I also have boxes of cartridges, but not loaded into mags. Just a personal preference. Some guys I know carry 8 mags each, pistol and rifle. Whatever works for your personal comfort level. Better to have it and not need it than the other way around though.

  • eeric

    Try to understand most members of any police tactical unit are vets and 25% are probably active reservists. These “fools” have access to the same if not better training than the average “former 03whatever” and need to have street time before a department will put them on a special unit. As for gear, they likely beg borrow and steal it from any Fed program they can get. Personally I can’t tell from these photos what their load out is, but I expect a mix of less lethal rounds, cs, oc, some smoke and diversion devices, masks, and so forth. Now consider these guys have been on camera 24/7 during 10 days of mayhem, with the Press picking the most shocking photos they can. Everyday policing is one thing, and I definitely agree with the need to look and act professional and approachable, but when dealing with a mob you need a show of force. Ask Reginald Denny how the nightsticks and helmets let them blow off some steam strategy worked out for him in LA, and how the cops were attacked by the same media experts for not taking charge of the situation.

  • Sam Pensive

    my thoughts .
    as what i think is a fairly honest citizen i’m happy that LE and the Missouri law responded to the riots with something other than flowers and smiles.
    those are more what the local citizens ought to be exchanging.
    when it gets bad, and most of us would agree the Ferguson situation was bad,
    the police and responder’s have to be ready for very bad things.
    that’s no skin off my rights or their duties to defend.

    lacking a proper and adequate and as needed response from LE
    then the rest of us have to respond. i’d bet that if a crowd of rioters
    showed up in YOUR neighborhood you’d be looking for all the weapons
    and ammo you could find just to feel like you and your family had a chance
    to make it through until the LE types showed.
    .that’s really what the Right to self defense is all about in my view.

    my frame of reference is that the same minimalist attitude of
    “what do you bring to a firefight” has been the chief reason
    our nation finds conflicts like VN, Iraq and Afghan so
    difficult… somewhere there are forces and politicians who pull
    back on the trained military system and interject a let’s all talk
    and get along mindset into what have been
    bad situations with our guys and gals in harms way.

    again i don’t see the show of force in Ferguson to be a problem.
    here are a areas in this state where they should show and stay.
    conditions are very bad and the local police really don’t have enough
    resources to provide the general public with a safe neighborhood.

  • Jeremiah

    These fascist thugs aside…. the rifle has a 45 degree mounted red dot since just because it’s a rifle geared to be DMR(again, setting aside how utterly INSANE that is in a suburb), there is no reason to make it a purely a point-shooting gun for close quarters when all it takes is a side-mounted or superimposed reddot… God help this country. It’s being stolen from us not by immigrants, or communists as we’ve been conditioned to fear, but by police and politicians.