Man Files Suit against Kel-Tec, ProMag, After Shooting Accident

Kel-Tec_KSG_(2)

A Virginia man is filing a lawsuit against Kel-Tec and ProMag Ind. after the failure of a ProMag vertical foregrip led to an accident that resulted in the loss of most of his hand:

It appears that their client was shooting a Kel-Tec KSG equipped with a ProMag “Archangel” polymer forward grip when tragedy occurred.

Keep in mind the KSG is a bullpup 12 gauge, with a total length of only 26 inches.

“The properly installed forward grip slid off the gun rail while the user was pumping the gun, resulting in the user shooting off part of his hand,” the attorney wrote on a lawyers-only site.

The attorney was seeking advice and technical experts for the lawsuit. A friend saw the post and sent it to me.

A contact wound with a 12 gauge is devastating. There’s no coming back from something like that.

The attorney cites the compact nature of the KSG, and the fact there is nothing on the rail to “prevent the grip from sliding off.”

They also noted alleged problems with the forward grip: “Nothing but a polymer nipple secures this grip to the rail — this nipple partially sheared off during first use.”

The image in the article (and the header image for this article) shows a KSG equipped with a Magpul VFG, unlike that of the Archangel in that it is retained by two Allen screws. The Archangel, shown below, has only a polymer nipple for retention. The circumstances of the accident are unclear, but the primary cause may well have been equipment failure.

opplanet-pro-mag-archangel-vertical-fore-grip-compact-polymer-aafg03

Image source: OpticsPlanet.com

 

Short-barreled weapons are often been designed or retrofitted with stops to prevent this sort of accident. Stay safe, everyone.

Thanks to Nick for the tip.

Note from Phil: Just to verify that this particular attorney was indeed seeking individuals to testify on their behalf. I actually recieved an email from a para-legal outlining what the attorney was looking for from a potential “expert”. Knowing these lawsuits can run on for years I didn’t respond to the inquiry. I don’t consider myself an expert on the KSG anyway!



Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. In addition to contributing to The Firearm Blog, he runs 196,800 Revolutions Per Minute, a blog devoted to modern small arms design and theory. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.


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  • JumpIf NotZero

    What was the mechanical design failure that led to his finger being in the trigger while racking?

    Oh right…

    • duray

      Do you take your finger off the trigger while your semi – auto is cycling?

      • JumpIf NotZero

        No, it’s correctly held back, and when I’m getting back in target it comes up to reset, at which point I decide if I need to shoot again. If I don’t, hen yes my finger comes off the trigger.

        Either you typed that with one hand… Or you also don’t really know how to run a firearm properly.

        • Duray

          So first he was a moron for having his trigger on the finger, and now he’s a moron for not having the trigger held back?

          • Dracon1201

            No, he’s a moron for not having proper discipline while firing said shotgun. Both techniques are proper, he obviously did neither.

          • What the…?

          • Dracon1201

            Basically, what I’m saying, is that any technique where your first reflex is to pull the trigger when something breaks is the only wrong thing to do.

          • Wait, so he’s a moron for having bad reflexes, now?

          • Dracon1201

            No, but bad technique made it rather easy for those bad reflexes to blow his hand off.

          • I’m still unclear on what you think proper technique is.

          • Dracon1201

            Well, unfortunately, I cannot show you in person, and I will not try on my Galaxy 5.

      • Joshua

        Nope, then again my semi auto rifles and handguns have disconnectors.

    • It’s very common to keep the finger on the trigger while speed-shooting a pump shotgun. Virtually all of the competition shooters I’ve seen do this.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Either perhaps you don’t hang around with very good competition shooters (as if that’s some status modifier that brings wisdom (in reality it’s quite the opposite)) or you don’t “see” the shooters holding the trigger and resetting after the pump. I’m not sure how one could see the difference as a bystander really.

        You don’t need to come off the trigger to excersise proper trigger control. But you can’t lose a hand when you have it.

        • I don’t see how this would have helped the individual in question. Because he was shooting quickly, he fired while his hand had come in front of the muzzle. It had nothing to do with holding down the trigger while cycling, as the gun cannot fire in that condition.

          You are criticizing him for having his finger on the trigger during cycling. I think this is a strange criticism, as it’s difficult to shoot any gun quickly, much less consistently, if you’re removing your finger from the trigger guard between each shot. Further, why would him having his finger on the trigger while cycling the gun have mattered? The weapon has an out of battery safety, meaning he couldn’t have fired it mid-cycle, and it has a disconnector, meaning he necessarily had to have allowed the trigger to reset before pulling it again.

          The problem was that the vertical foregrip failed, causing the gun to lose support from his non-dominant hand, and for the muzzle to fall, and that the surface his hand was braced against ceased to be attached to the rifle, causing his hand to come forward while the muzzle came down in its path.

          Trigger control had nothing to do with it. You might as well say it’s his fault for shooting guns in the first place.

          • JumpIf NotZero

            Please explain to me again in great detail how someone shooting themselves is NOT because they pressed the trigger when they should not have.

            This was a yahoo trying to play Blast’em likely while a bystander was holding his beer, and he shot himself because his finger was on the reset trigger when it should not have been.

            If the KSG fired on its own, yea, not a trigger control issue. This was.

            That’s not to to say the KSG is a good gun. It’s not. It’s a unique idea in garbage packaging. I promise it WILL have a rail stop soon in the future. Promag makes garbage so no surprise there.

            No one wins, but this guy could have racked it backwards against his face and not had an issue UNTIL his finger was where it should not have been.

          • Cymond

            I agree it was a stupid mistake, but his foregrip snapped off and he suddenly found himself holding a shotgun with one hand. The natural instinct was probably hold on to the KSG tightly with his main hand. There have been many, MANY instances of people accidentally yanking triggers when startled.
            So yeah, it’s he pulled the trigger when he shouldn’t have, but it’s also a common reflex.

          • I’m sure he regrets that trigger pull, but saying that when rapid firing a gun your finger shouldn’t be inside the trigger guard is a bit strange.

    • n0truscotsman

      You are right.

      and that right there should be the end of the discussion. PERIOD.

      I dont care if you are competing with it, or hot rodding it tactically. If you are doing this, you should have the sense to invest in something better than promag.

  • Cameron

    I suppose a piece of the Promag Archangel flew off and hit the trigger, while his hand was in front of the barrel.

  • Alex Waits

    I would think that using a VFG as a device to assist with working the action, would be beyond the scope of what the designers intended, the torqe alone at the connection point would lead me to believe that using the VFG in that manner would result in problems.
    I feel for the guy but this isnt the manufacturers fault.

    • big daddy

      Think again.

    • Zachary marrs

      The ksg can be a bitch to run without a vfg, I can see suing pro mag over this, kel tec not so much

      • When I first handled my KSG I recognized the potential for a problem. I ordered a MagPul VFG just like the one shown on the KSG in the photo. It’s solid and as long as you do your part there shouldn’t be a problem. Suing Kel-Tec seems a bit over the top. He knows guns then he should recognize the potential as I did and buy a quality VFG.

        • Cymond

          “recognized the potential for a problem” sounds a lot like “recognized a design flaw”. I agree that the shooter should have been more careful and used a better quality foregrip. I’m just playing “devil’s advocate” and pointing out that the KSG may have an issue.

          • Dracon1201

            But there is no flaw there. The KSG worked as designed. It was designed without a handstop, and regardless of what we think about said design, it never failed. The Promag grip failed, but he even says he noted it failing earlier. He took no responsibility for his safety and got burned.

          • Zachary marrs

            “KSG Worked as designed”

            Hahaha, I didn’t realize that kel tecs are made to work, but in all seriousness, you are correct

          • Cymond

            I’m just trying to argue this as an attorney likely would (but I don’t speak “legalese”). Yes, the design did not fail, but a competent attorney will argue that the design is unsafe, that injuries are likely to occur even without a malfunction.

          • No I really didn’t look at it as a design flaw. It’s like my Tavor. The Tavor forward grip is also close to the end of the barrel so I did the same thing as with the KSG and added a VFG just in case I had sweaty or wet hands from rain etc.
            The KSG did have a problem when it first came out. I’m sure glad they fixed it. The only problem I have with the KSG now is when you rack the gun and the empty shell ejects it hits your wrist which can be unpleasant.

          • Raven

            The difference is that the Tavor has a hand stop, however, and you’re not required to pump the handguard to run it.

          • No but i’ve seen people fire a Tavor with a hand way too close to the end of the barrel.

      • big daddy

        Both have some liability without a doubt, but not 100%. Some goes on the individual.

        • Here’s an alternative to the VFG. This is made by ERGO from hard rubber with an interior stiffening piece. $12 is cheap insurance.

        • Bp. David

          Yeah–99.9% of the liability rests with the moron. And he should have to pay all the defense costs of Pro-Mag and Keltec.

          • big daddy

            Without knowing the full story your opinion is based on what?

  • TDog

    I’m not a big fan of the KSG – it’s overhyped, overpriced, and unreliable from my experience – but this sounds like one great big case of “had his finger on the trigger like a moron.”

  • cpock

    I have bought two products product from Pro Mag. A Sig P226 magazine with disintegrating the floor plate, and a full size forward grip that wouldn’t fit a mil-spec Picatinny rail. I have serious doubts about the quality of their plastics and quality control.

  • Random FFL

    Hopefully the owner learned his lesson: don’t buy the absolute cheapest sh*t you can possibly get your hands on and slap it on a 12ga shotgun and expect it to be reliable.

    I do get a kick out him including Kel-Tec in the suit. Good luck proving their liability in someone else’s product failing.

  • sianmink

    Promag suit might have legs, depending. I’d expect a cheap-looking foregrip like that to be marked for non-firearm use only, because yikes. I certainly wouldn’t trust that. I don’t see how Kel-Tec is liable at all for this. Nothing on the gun mechanically failed, and the rail design and execution are solid. if it had slamfired, his hand wouldn’t be in front of the muzzle yet, so he had to have pulled the trigger.

    • Cymond

      I think the argument is that the KSG has a poorly-designed forearm, not that it malfunctioned. The argument is that this would not have happened if the KSG had a forward “lip” similar to this picture:

      • sianmink

        There’s plenty of SBS and SBRs with no such lip. I think a suit is on shaky ground.

        • big daddy

          Consider this; the shotgun needs to be operated by moving that part meaning the handguard, SBRs do not.

          • Dracon1201

            SBSs do.

          • Zachary marrs

            Most sbs’ s ive seen often have an aftermarket “lip” the problem is that most sbs’s were at one point a normal shotgun

      • n0truscotsman

        BULLSHIT.

        How do you know it couldn’t have happened? that is a pretty strong assumption to make there.

        Why is it that plenty of AR and AK pistols and SBRs exist (like Dracos) without people shooting their fucking hands up? probably because if you own such a thing, you recognize the risks, and take appropriate actions to minimize those risks. I.e. common sense.

        Do we need stops on handguns too? because im sure one yahoo already has done something similar in this case.

        • Cymond

          Whoa dude, calm down, no need to get nasty. You may notice I use phrases like “the argument”. I’m just trying to see it from the plaintiff’s point of view.

          For what it’s worth, I don’t think it is normal operating procedure for AR & AK pistols to be slamming the handguard forward and backward during shooting. You put your hand on the handguard and don’t move it.

          Working the KSG involves pumping the foregrip. If the grip came loose on the forward stroke, it would slide right off the rail, in front of the muzzle. The ProMag grip is one that slides on and is held by a small “nipple” (their choice of words). It does not clamp on to the lip like a QD mount, it can only move forwards and backwards along the a rail. A forward lip would have stopped the grip from sliding forward beyond the muzzle. The only way for this particular grip to get past a forward lip would be if the entire mounting bracket snapped, instead of a tiny plastic “nipple”.

          • n0truscotsman

            Im not mad at anybody and I see your point,

            im just plum fed up with the lack of accountability by some in our group of gun people that *should* know better

            Maybe when others suggest quality when they put stuff on their guns, the cheapskates can stop chiming in and deriding the wiser apes. After all, I dont pick on and openly ridicule promag and companies like them for the exercise…

          • Cymond

            Well regardless of your emotions, you did cuss at me twice.
            .
            As a general side-note, I’ve been surprised by some of the language I seen in the comments in the last few months.
            .
            I agree that he shouldn’t have used a junk foregrip, and he should have known better. I suspect that his actions after it failed were pure reflexes, and everything happened in a tiny fraction of a second. OTOH, I also think it would be wise for Kel-Tec to use an extra 50¢ of plastic on the front of the forearm to stop accessories from sliding off the front. They’ll probably change the forearm after this, regardless of the lawsuit’s outcome. Also, ProMag Archangel parts are junk, but they are also marketed for use on real firearms. That’s probably a poor business decision.
            .
            I think the key to the “price vs quality” debate is knowing what you need. I have no qualms about putting a BSA red-dot on one of my 22lr pinking rifles. I also have a similar grip as the one in this story, but it’s for my airsoft gun. However, a 12ga shotgun is a serious piece of equipment and deserves serious accessories, especially where safety is a factor.

          • Sixshot6

            I used to wonder if it would be a good idea to get Kel tec to make a uk version of the KSG (overall length for a pump or semi has to be 40 inches with a 24 inch barrel minimum). Not so sure now. How is the move going Cymond. Have you escaped to freedom yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbsuAbTTsV8 Certainly that CMR rifle with some mods would be a good uk gun. 22WMR is about the most powerful semi auto we can. Hope things are going well.

          • Cymond

            I think this happened partially because the KSG is so short. To make the KSG 40 inches, they would need to add 14 inches in length, probably just by giving it a much longer barrel. By my estimates, it would have a 32 inch barrel to reach 40 inches overall. It would be VERY difficult to accidentally put your hand in front of a 40″ shotgun, regardless of what happens at the pump.
            .
            I’m not quite out of California yet, although I did go to the east coast for a few days to find an apartment. We’ve worked out the details, and I’ll be leaving here forever sometime after Sept 6th. It all depends on how quickly I can get everything packed and loaded.
            .
            The CMR-30 does seem like an excellent choice across the pond. You don’t have a capacity limit on rimfires, right? Have you heard about the 17 WSMR? It’s a 17-caliber rimfire round, and Winchester claims that it throws a 20gr bullet at 3,000 fps. Franklin Armory created an AR-15 version, complete with rotating locking bolt and gas operation. That’s pretty dang close to a standard AR-15, except for the smaller caliber & lighter bullets.

          • Sixshot6

            No Capacity limits on any rifle here, hell I have three 30 round mags for my MARS VZ58. Two magpul E-mags and a HK mag that the British Army used in the SA80. Sadly the Franklin Armory 17 WSM is not an option in the uk. Its because the bill that bans centrefire semi autos and pumps (that is why the MARS and lever release rifles exist), also bans any rimfire semi autos over 22 caliber. A top cop did write some recommendations for new legislation and one of his recommendations was strangely to remove the limit on rimfire semi autos to allow 17 hmr semis (who would buy them after the remington 597 fiasco I’ll never know), but it was written like that maybe 17 WSM would be ok. Also pumps in anything more than 22 are banned also, so a pump version is not an option either. Did you ever consider the Franklin 17 WSM at one point? I heard it mentioned that after pre ban 1994 AR’s and AR others, it would be the only way to own a 223 power AR with all the features in CT though.

            Glad you’re on the move, you and your partner can play the great escape theme when you leave, hell get yourself a triumph bike like Steve Mcqueen and ride out in style.

            Thanks for telling me about the stuff needed to make it have a 40 inch oal for the Kel Tec. I bet someone will try and get the CMR through though. At 22.5 inches overall length though its 1.5 inches too small and it can’t do that folded. So I think a brake or something is going to need to be welded on the barrel and maybe the stock pinned permanently (like most American states permanent is a subjective term and is really one no one can agree on, hell it was only in the last few years they dropped the once a section 5 (prohibited) always a section five argument, Hell I know a guy who has a manual opp L1A1 that was built out of old bits, it even has the made at Royal Enfield stamped on the receiver). Speaking of which the guy who made my MARS rifle (well he designed and has them made by CSA), he tried to get A US company (DS Arms I think) to make some FAL’s with the same action, but apparently the state department vetoed their export due to having stuff that made them a ‘Assault weapon’. Despite not being a semi auto, the pistol grip, bayonet lug and detachable mag made them so. Does any know if eliminating the features minus the detachable mag would have made things better for him?

            Once again Cymond thanks for the idea, I guess we all deal with crap in some way, you deal with bans on appearance of firearms (well for now you do). I deal with bans on functionality.

            If you’re ok telling where on the East coast are you going? I’m guessing New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland and New Jersey are out?

          • Cymond

            Interesting that 17HMR isn’t allowed. Do you have any idea why? Does the law specify 22 caliber rimfires, or is it based on velocity? Muzzle energy? I hope someone does import the CMR-30 (if Kel-Tec ever starts manufacturing it), the mechanical modification should be simple, regardless of whatever it takes to make it “permanent”. The legal work to get it recognized as legal, however, is always the tricky part with any gov’t.
            I personally never considered the Franklin Armory 17 because I never planned to stay here permanently, and it’s not worth the $1800 cost just to have a pistol grip for a little while. Heck, the rifle was announced just 6 months before we discovered our good fortune. If I were here long-term, I really like the FRS-15 featureless stock. They’re far more comfortable than they look.
            As to where I’m headed? Let’s just say it’s deep in the old Confederacy. My home state was on the border. Northerners called it a southern state and southerners called it a northern state.

          • Sixshot6

            Its because when the law was written in 1988, the only rimfires around were 22’s, so the law specifies 22’s. It does it in most of the British isles apart from Jersey where Centrefire semi’s are legal anyway, so the 17 WSM would have no appeal there. Hell I’ve seen the F17 on Franklins website and its not even out until sometime this month. I’m guessing you might have considered the Ares SCR also?. I have an idea where you mean of where you are going, best of luck. I hope you have it better than the 105 people who’ve been fired at Remington plant in Ilion New york. I know its bad but New York’s tax laws and the safe act caused that. I guess the New York state government never read the story of the goose that laid golden eggs. Mind, its not just gun companies Mercedes has a plant in Alabama now too.
            I hear that the FRS 15 is more comfortable than it looks, only real complaint i hear is with the safety and that is sorted with an Ambi switch anyway. Wouldn’t bother me as I’m left-handed. The only switch on my MARS VZ58 is on the side for righties anyway. I just reach with my thumb. Incidentally while you have been in the beautiful yet cursed state, what made you pick the Hammerhead? I know that when you moved into California, you could still pick up U-15’s before the guy who made them disappeared (I’ve known that happen to many one man bands). Even the monster man and Solar tactical grips seemed a better bet. I guess it doesn’t matter now you and your partner are leaving.. What other rifles are you planning on getting besides AR’s when you are there? If I were you, I’d have a decent AK or VZ (with my experience I’d lean towards the VZ), maybe both but the ak be 5.45, a M1A or a FN FAL/L1A1 (the L1A1 was the Uk’s military rifle before the SA80). A decent pistol cal carbine like a beretta CX4 storm and a 22 like a Ruger 10/22 or something. For pistols, a decent revolver in 357, a 22 semi, a 9mm, a 40 & a 1911 in the caliber it should be (45 ACP) and semi auto shotgun (I’m on the fence, whether it would be a mag fed one or a tube gun as I know there are no new Saigas (I don’t believe the sanctions are going anytime soon, look at Norinco). I wish you and your Missus well and who knows in another walk of life you and me might have been buddies. Its a good time to be able to talk to people across the globe. Also on one final bit of advice, don’t get a gym membership, get a dog, you’ll walk out and about and have the joys of another friendly face that is happy to see you at the end of the day.

          • Cymond

            I feel bad about cluttering up the comment section so badly, but this article is already out of control, anyway.
            Yeah, I think the Ares SCR is pretty cool. I may get one eventually anyway, mostly as a curiosity. I looked at a Benelli MR-1 with the traditional stock shape, and my finger couldn’t reach the magazine release button (also true with the Hammerhead).

            Good question about the Hammerhead. I can be an extreme cheapskate, especially on items I don’t even want. When I moved to CA, funds were tight at first and I didn’t know much in the beginning. (I only finished building my first AR-15 last year, now working on number 2.) The U-15 wasn’t widely promoted, and cost something like $150, compared to $20 for a Hammerhead on sale. The Monsterman and Solar Tactical were still twice the price for a grip I hoped to only need for 1 year (became 2 years). Also, I can wrap my thumb over the top of the Hammerhead. I have an Ace AR-UL. I didn’t originally use the ‘gusset’ on the AR-UL tube that presses against the receiver. It had more room for my thumb but the buffer tube had a tendency to come loose. With the Hammerhead, it is still possible to pick up and even shoulder the rifle one-handed, although a real pistol grip is better. Finally, the Monsterman is really designed for the A2 stock. It would work with the AR-UL but look awful (petty, I know).

            Moving 2500+ miles is expensive, so I only have about $1500 to spend. Here’s my “freedom celebration” wish list:
            reloading press & dies – probably in a common handgun caliber like 9mm or 357 Mag
            sound suppressors (so many options!) – definitely a rimfire, and maybe a 9mm, too
            9mm pistol: FNX-9 or LH-9
            Revolvers: Ruger SP-101 4.2″ or S&W 686 or 986
            7.62×39: VZ-58, AK rifle, AK pistol (with arm brace)
            9mm carbines: JR Carbine, Sub-2000, CX4, KP-31 Suomi (semiauto), Nite Scout A3 (needs brace)
            22LR: Ares RCU, 10/22 50th Anniv #11173, 10/22 takedown stainless steel #11125, AGP Arms 10/22 SBR, 10/22 bullpup (HTA 90/22? ZK-22?), custom 10/22 pistol (integrally suppressed, with arm brace)

            It’s a long list, and it doesn’t include possible upgrades to the guns I already own. I also have some incomplete guns like an 8.5″ TacSol Paclite. The 1911 is beautiful but low on my priority list, maybe a S&W E-Series. I *definitely* want a STI 2011 … someday. I’m holding off on shotguns for now, but the Black Aces Tactical would make a cool SBS/AOW. Then there’s the more modern rifles (Sig, SCAR, sooo many others) … And I’d love to collect bullpups (don’t even get me started) … And of course classic military surplus rifles … And the truly weird stuff (COP 4-barrel derringer, Mateba) … And early semiauto pistols … and … and … and…
            However, the dog should probably wait for a few more years. (That sign is 1 foot wide and tall)

            If you ever come to the south-eastern US, let me know and maybe we can hit a range together.

          • Sixshot6

            Good rabbits, I had one that ran away when I was a boy (it was called Harry and my guinea pig was called Piggy), I can understand $150 vs $20 and I guess its what happens when something isnt promoted and you’re ok being petty, though I lean towards functionality (I just got a FAB stock on my VZ58 as it has an adjustable cheek piece and it was a life safer with how high the side mount is (I’m regretting not getting the dust cover mount now)). The list of stuff sounds good too. I reckon you should get the AK pistol with a brace and since 7.62×39 is so good for subsonic loads, get it suppressed or would that mean you might as well turn it into a sbs/aow? Also with the hammerhead as you had it, how did you keep you hand falling off? I always feel that would’nt give me enough purchase and my hands arent that big. For Bullpups get the ZK22 (show some solidarity with Red Jacket, although I should’nt say this I have seen many vengeful. ex’s act this way and lie). I always avoid bullpups due to being a lefty but if I lived in the US or Canada I’d get a Tavor as it can be left-handed.

            Thanks for the offer also. If I’m ever going there I’ll tell you, you send me a PM and we’ll arrange a place and you can get to see what I can do and you can show me the goodies and I’ll show what I obtained in the mean time. Speaking of Matebas, there is a dealer I know of the UK that has a carbine. Its about £1000 and it may or may not be an NFA item in the US (show it might not be importable) but here it is for a look http://www.cpgdesign.co.uk/#!rifles-for-sale-8.

            You have a great day and keep the torch burning. We’ve got a problem we’re dealing with right now in the UK. I don’t know the full story but it seems a pen pusher is trying to put some gunsmiths that make certain UK straight pulls out of busy despite them obeying the law. Its a bad situation, but don’t let it rain on yours.

          • Cymond

            I tend towards functionality as well, and would definitely get the FRS-15 if I were staying. I dislike neutered rifles so much that I considered just building & storing it outside of CA, but decided that I would tolerate the neutering since it was so affordable. I don’t mind higher prices when it’s something I actually want. I’m planning to install a Midwest Industries SSM M-LOK handguard. I considered the BCM KMR-13, but I don’t think it’s worth $90 to save 1 ounce of weight.

            As for the suppressor on an AK pistol, that’s a bit of a challenge. AK barrels have a reputation for very poor threads, so the barrel would need to be re-threaded by a gunsmith and AK pistol barrels tend to have very little length to spare for re-threading. Also, the AK has a reputation for not suppressing very well due to a lot of action noise as well as the way the piston operates. Since the gas is released in to the loose-fitting gas tube, a fair bit of gas (and sound) escape around the piston. It’s somewhat similar to putting a suppressor on a revolver. However, I haven’t personally heard a suppressed AK, so I’m not sure how much of that is just internet armchair commandos.

            I’m not sure what you mean about my hand falling off of the Hammerhead. I just grip it tightly with my thumb when I pick it up, no different than gripping a traditional straight rifle stock. My hands aren’t very big. I usually wear size “small” gloves and a size 8 ring.

            Yup, that Mateba carbine looks like a SBR in the US. I was tempted to buy a Mateba carbine a long ago but couldn’t afford it. I wish I had because they continue to skyrocket in price. At the time the carbine was 1/3 the price of the handgun, and I was considering buying it and chopping it in to a SBR. However, there is so little information on them. It’s essentially recoil-operated so reducing the mass would require a heavier recoil spring, but I have no idea what spring weight it would need or where to get the right spring. As a side note, I cannot see any reason why a Mateba carbine would be illegal in CA. Yes, it has a pistol grip but it doesn’t have a removable magazine. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=430500852

            “despite them obeying the law” I certainly know how that goes. Our legislators constantly complain that our attempts to obey the laws are “exploiting loopholes”.

          • Sixshot6

            I can see a longer barrel on the Grifone I saw in the link. I’m really sorry man. I’m guessing NFA items can only be manufactured in the US and not imported? When I mean falling off, I mean not getting a full pistol style grip (the main reason pistol grips being as they are is to be comfortable). I know why exile machine, hammerhead and Thorsden have decide what they have and its to make something as comfortable as possible but stay within the law.

            I hear you on the last point, we get that a bit in the UK. I mentioned to you a gun builder, he’s called AR Buckland. He is as law abiding as anything. He as an MBE (Member of the British Empire), which would have been awarded by the Queen, is an ex SAS soldier, has a tonne of case law backing him up and appears to have done nothing wrong, but some pen pusher seems to want to put him out of business (even if he wins, the court costs will likely bankrupt him).

            Exploiting loop holes, is there way of saying they wrote crap laws and despite you obeying the letter of the law that they still want to screw you over and no loopholes to them is no guns. Obeying the letter of the law is not a loophole. These people should never have risen farther than the level of a town Councillor (or in the UK a parish Councillor). I know the electorate has to share some of the blame, but these people are also the first to complain of police with military equipment, politicians who are using their office to commit crimes (anti gun pols being gun runners and others using their position to abuse children (see the one in Rhodes Island, famous anti gunner who was arrested with images on his computer, makes me sick)). I’m sorry for the political points Cymond and everyone else, but it just had to be said.

            Its understandable in somewhere like California to degenerate like this, but the so called cradle of democracy is the icing on the sh*t cake. To all you gun owners in California and everywhere else, its time to draw a line, well not just draw a line but excavate a line with a JCB digger and start pushing back. Expose these hypocrites for who they are, recruit more people. Try and get as many people as possible once a month that have never shot to range, show them the connection between crazy laws and even crazier politicians. Don’t go to overboard though. Stay on message and once again keep pushing. We can win, we just have to play the long game. it might take years, but we can bloody do it (sorry to anyone living in the US who saying bloody might be the worst thing, its not that bad a word in the UK).

            I also wish you well Cymond and I think I know a solution to AK suppressing. I saw an episode of Sons of guns where they came up with a solution involving a fully suppressed barrel. Would that work or is it easier just to buy a 300 blackout AR upper and put a suppressor on it?

            You have a good day Cymond and if I’m ever in the Southern States. I’ll give you a PM and I’ll take up your offer. I’ll buy you a beer to as thanks if you drink (I don’t the taste gets me, my vice is sugary snacks and chinese food).

      • Or this

      • ThomasD

        If only because there would be no way to mount the device in question.

        • Cymond

          Well the grip could still slide on to the rail from the rear, as shown in this picture. I was just using the handguard picture above to illustrate a concept. I also must point out that this owner (in the picture below) was wise enough to use a sturdy hand-stop AND a good-quality foregrip with 2 steel crossbolts.

          http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/16/28/42/ksg_210.jpg

  • dan

    Phil you should have said in your expert opinion you client bought a cheap piece of plastic to make his shotgun even more tacticool threw all basic fundamentals out the window trying to show off at the range which resulted in a life lesson.

    Things like this remind me of kids buying a honda civic slapping some type R badges and a park bench wing on it and thinking they have a legit race car only to find out as they plow into a tree that they still had eco car brakes, suspension and tires. Try to imitate the movies and your going to get what you deserve especially if your buying junk to do it with.

    Maybe the only good to come out of this will be promag upping the quality of their products.

    • That would be about right but as I mentioned these lawsuits go on and on. I didn’t want to get involved in a mess like this. I don’t agree with adding Kel-Tec in the lawsuit either.

    • If I had done it I sure would have said he bought junk and paid a heavy price.

  • Erik

    I know the individual this article is referring to. He is an avid firearms user and dealer. He is also very knowledgeable about firearm safety. A “moron” he is not. I hope a devistating tragedy like this never happens to any other responsible “morons” out there.

    • Joshua

      Yo u mean aside from buying cheap bubba accessories from the lowest of low manufacturers?

      No one with even a little bit of knowledge of,gun accessories buy pro mag crap.

      Its tuppaware plastics.

    • Random FFL

      If he’s an experienced and knowledgeable dealer then he already knew that ProMag products are cheap sh*t that can’t be trusted. It’s common knowledge in the industry.

      Which makes me then look at his lawsuit in a much worse light. He KNOWS this incident was totally preventable and yet he makes a conscious decision to try and put the financial burden on the manufacturers. That’s unethical and basically stealing if he wins the case.

    • Dracon1201

      Obviously he was enough of a moron to not take his finger off the trigger.

        • Sadler

          How is this relevant? That’s a semi and he at least lets the trigger reset.

          • If the individual in question did not let the trigger reset on his Kel-Tec, it would not have fired, as it has a disconnector.

        • Dracon1201

          Apples to oranges. Semi auto, world class shooter with years of experience vs moron gun owner trying to pop off a mag as fast as he can though a pump who doesn’t pay attention, neglects his gear, and who can’t control his trigger finger when he tears a huge chunk of plastic off of his shotgun.

          • Are you saying that a world-class shooter does not have to abide by the same rules you think everyone should follow?

            It’s very standard practice to keep your trigger inside the guard when cycling a pump shotgun.

          • JSmath

            Please stop defending the moron in question’s very obvious, glaring mistake. He effectively shot himself on purpose, and you’re needlessly defending his stupidity.

            He should never have used a shitty vertical grip to cycle that shotgun. Any shotgun for that matter. Simple as that. It’s time for the age of Sue-happy Moronic, Entitled Americans to come to an end.

            Then again, if you have the same inclinations and tend to enact the same behavior, by all means, keep it up. Can’t wait for the TFB article accounting for you blowing your own head off, doing some moronic garbage like using a bow trigger release with a magnum bolt action or similar.

          • Wow.

          • Dracon1201

            No, I never said experience discounted you from the rules. Miculek has the experience and know how to make shooting a shotgun that quickly work. I doubt Miculek would have tried the same with a KSG with a crappy defunct foregrip. In addition, the firing of a semi auto in such a manner is vastly different, considering the whole pumping thing.

        • Laserbait

          Not a pump, muzzle and mag are very far away from the shooters reach, and no VFG. Not a very goon comparison.

          • It demonstrates the standard trigger control when using a shotgun in earnest: finger inside the trigger between each shot. My point is that’s not negligence to do this. Unfortunately, when things go wrong, they go wrong quickly, and while yes, everyone recognizes that in this case he would not have had the accident if his finger were not on the trigger, it’s not like he was fingering the trigger when he shouldn’t have (not to our knowledge, anyway).

            Just because most “accidents” are in fact the result of negligence doesn’t mean all are. Sometimes, circumstances are simply not under your control, like when your weapon fails during use.

          • Sadler

            You can have your finger in the trigger guard without firing the gun. You can have your finger ON THE TRIGGER without firing the gun. The shooter is 100% liable in this case, I don’t care what cosmetic feature failed, he’s the one that pulled the trigger and blew his hand off.

          • I don’t agree.

          • Sadler

            The person that pulls the trigger of a functioning firearm is the person that’s responsible for any and all damage. There was no reported functional issue with the shotgun, and it didn’t fire on its own, nor did anyone else pull the trigger. If he had killed someone, do you honestly think that no charges would be brought up against him? and do you think that he would be acquitted?

        • Hank Seiter

          Absolutely and totally irrelevant to this discussion. Semi-auto is equivalent to pump … have IQs dropped this millennium?

    • Asdf

      He’s not a moron, but has a habit of buying the cheapest fore grip you can get?

      • raz-0

        Buying the cheapest fore grip for a rifle is one thing. Buying the cheapest foregrip to operate the action on a pump shotgun is another.

        So he chose the cheapest method to do something ergonomically awful (tacstar allowed us to learn this ages ago) using a device likely never intended for it, and without the common sense to at least spring for something with a decent locking lug, which are not particularly expensive nor in short supply.

      • bmrtoyo

        well thats moronic

    • Bp. David

      Eric, you say: “He is an avid firearms user and dealer.” So he has no excuse for pulling the trigger after he has lost control of the weapon, unless he’s a malingerer looking for an easy disability retirement at our expense! So he is either a drunk, a druggie, a moron, or a self-destructive mental case–none of which should ever be within 100 yards of a weapon!

      • Erik

        Your two cents have been dually noted.

        • Hank Seiter

          “duly noted.”

    • Hank Seiter

      I think this shooter’s ACTIONS speak louder than your perceptions. As an “avid firearms user” and “dealer” HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. The guy is a moron for buying cheap crap and putting it on an expensive mechanical device … a DANGEROUS expensive mechanical device. And more than likely it was some cheap PTS-style airsoft piece of crap.

    • I’m a dealer, too

      I really cannot see an actual firearms dealer ever using a POS cheap airsoft quality foregrip for the purposes of racking a pump action shotgun. Nobody with any knowledge whatsoever of how these things work would make that choice.

  • DrewN

    I have a couple of these fore grips in my junk box, the odd thing is they are drilled for a cross bolt and molded to capture a hex nut but they aren’t included.

    • That’s just strange. I didn;t know that. Thanks for passing that along.

    • Dracon1201

      That explains a lot, thank you.

    • screwtape2713 .

      Are you sure what you have aren’t the “good” Archangel foregrips? Looking at the ProMag website, the Archangel foregrip comes in three versions: a ‘heavy duty’ one made out of aluminum with both a ‘nub’ in the middle that screws down into the rail slot AND a drill-out for a crossbolt (all for $70); and then two plastic versions for $21 that are secured just by the screw down nub with no provision for a crossbolt. I would assume that this suit involves one of the $21 plastic versions.

      BTW, I see nothing at all on the ProMag website to suggest that the plastic foregrips should only be used on stationary rails and not on pump shotguns. In fact, the Archangel line itself includes complete sets of ‘tactical’ furniture for the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 pump guns. And the forends on those sets have short sets of rails at the front, presumably for lights, but one could also put a foregrip there. And it would be quite natural, when buying plastic Archangel shotgun furniture and wanting to put a foregrip on it, to buy a matching Archangel plastic foregrip … Some of the ‘backpacker’ variants of the short Remmy packages are done up with 8″ barrels here, which puts the muzzle maybe an inch at most in front of the end of the forend, much like the KSG… Most of the guys up here using those either have hefty handstops at the end of their pump grips, or else they have one of those one of those handstrap guards on the forend for that very reason…

  • nully

    Buy cheap bubba shit. Get burned. etc. Ad Nauseum.

  • glennbartley

    ” I don’t consider myself an expert on the KSG anyway! ” You would not need to be an expert on Kel-Tec firearms nor in particular an expert relative to the KSG. What they truly would need would be an expert on safety with pump action shotguns (and possibly other pump guns). At the very least, this would make for a very interesting case. Had I been approached with the opportunity to testify as an expert witness, or even a limited expert, on pump action shotguns, safety with them, firearms safety in general and so forth, I would readily have accepted. As for experience with a Kel-Tec, you could gain more than enough, added to other credentials, to qualify you as an expert witness inn this case; that is if you had the prior credentials.
    All the best,
    Glenn B

    • They probably wouldn’t take me anyway. They do in depth interviews and I don’t agree with suing Kel-Tec on this.

  • JRT

    The thing that jumped out at me was the Quote –
    They also noted alleged problems with the forward grip: “Nothing but a polymer nipple secures this grip to the rail — this nipple partially sheared off during first use.”
    During first use.
    So that means to me that the user noticed the damage to the grip, but continued to use it anyway.

    • Icchan

      How’s this – it happened when he was “pumping” (aka cycling) the gun. Which means either there was a stuck firing pin causing a slamfire, or someone didn’t take their booger hook off the bang switch. Considering he was using the gun despite its visible damage, I’m willing to believe the latter…

      …wonder if he drives around noticing that his car door isn’t closed and that he can see the partially sheared off door latch.

      • “Riding” the trigger is a pretty common technique for using a pump action gun. Often full pressure is applied to the trigger before the action is closed.

        Interestingly, doing this to early KSGs would lock the action up. It seems they’ve fixed that problem, much to this poor fellow’s lament.

        • sianmink

          IIRC that was just a quirk of a few pre-production examples, and did not continue into any production units.

          • I just remember discovering it when handling the gun at Kel-Tec’s SHOT Show booth…

        • williewvr

          I’m not sure riding the trigger would of caused this. The grip should have been slightly behind the muzzle even then. The round would of gone off before the hand got in front of the muzzle. More likely he shot himself by applying finger pressure to the trigger after the grip became separated from the forearm. Moral of this story is don’t buy cheap plastic and expect it to work correctly. I’m a KelTec fan but a cheap grip with a plastic clamp on a plastic rail is just a bad idea.

      • Pete

        Icchan, if you ever hurt yourself in any way, expect all the people you have “holier than thoued” throughout the years to stand and laugh at you while you bleed. It is obvious that this handle broke off on the forward stroke after one shot was fired, and that kind of jerking could cause anyone’s shooting hand grip to change for the disastrous worse, even yours. And I do not have a “booger hook,” I have an index finger. As you age and grow wiser you will realize that most people disregard all your opinions before they have a chance to truly evaluate them, because they dismiss you as a disgusting jerk.

        • The Kurgan Terminator

          “It is obvious that this handle broke off on the forward stroke after one shot was fired”

          So you were there and saw what happened? Right… from my experience in law enforcement there are 3 things to look at. 1. What the victim says happened; 2. What the perp said happened and finally 3. What really happened.

          Do you know 100% the grip was new? No. Do you know if he was sober? No. Do you know if he was using the firearm in a safe manner? No. I could go on but you get the point. Lots of variables to consider before you can make such an absolute statement.

          I would say Kel Tec is in the clear because their rail is in accordance with industry standards and its ProMag that might be at fault. It all depends on their legal disclaimers and who has the biggest pockets when it comes to lawyers.

          • Phil Hsueh

            I agree, it seems that the fault lies not in Kel-Tec but in ProMag since it was the foregrip that failed, not the weapon itself.

          • Conrad Gabbard

            My bet is that the foregrip was improperly mounted – causing the damage, then negligently used in the damaged mode. Accepting responsibility for their own stupidity is difficult for many people, so they must strike out at someone else.

          • Michel_T

            Yup… and now there will be one more legal warning on the grip: Not to be use on firearm that generate hard recoil.

          • Evil_Bonsai

            “Not to be used on any firearm where mounting location is attached to pumping mechanism.”

          • The Brigadier

            No it needs to be recalled and redesigned. When did what you suggested become the norm in this country? I think its ever since we turned over 80 percent of our manufacturing to China in the mid Nineties. We are inundated with crappy products from China and that has become our new norm. We’ve got to take it back.

          • Michel_T

            Agree, we need to bring back manufacturing jobs…
            But we also need to teach some common sense, because someone should have caught on that this little plastic tab couldn’t possibly be strong enough for the job.

          • LouAnnWatson

            or any pockets ready to be fleeced

          • The Brigadier

            It didn’t have two allen screws securing it to the grip. Hell, i bought a ten dolllar laser light for my riot gun and it only weighed a few ounces and it secured to the installed rail with two allen hex screws. This ProMag design is amazingly poor and inherently faulty with the stresses involved. I hope the injured guy gets a bundle and I hope the workers at Pro Mag will have jobs after the judgement.

        • Rick

          If Icchan hurts himself by making a stupid mistake, I hope he’ll at least not be a tool and sue everyone but himself.

          someone trying to play the rapidfire game (I suspect from the hip or low position) whose hand went forward of the pump and before the barrel and was already pulling the trigger in order to get that timing right.

          Pretty sure a slamfire malfuction would have expelled the shot before his hand could clear underneath the weapon and completely occlude the bore.

          While I feel sorry for the injured, suing and blaming everyone else is the wrong, immature and irresponsible course of action.

          Just like suing a bicycle manufacturer when your kid hurts himself doing stunts or “look ma, no hands!” moments.

          It’s not “holier than thou”, it’s owning up to our screwups. We make em, but we also own em.

          BTW, everyone including range weenies like me know about “booger hooks” even if we didn’t serve. Lots of DI’s, wannabe DI’s and our cranky fathers and uncles used that term that THEIR DI’s pounded into their heads. Getting butthurt about that term shows you’re already looking for reasons to “disregard” an opinion that you already didn’t like.

          Stay safe. Keep your hands down, and save the double taps and Hollywood shotgun action for the battlefield or the silver screen.

      • asoro

        thats what I am thinking also, I am sure it was part his doing also, But he lost a hand so you do what most people would do, Blame everything and everyone but your self.

    • asoro

      Can’t be sure, But he was a bit stupid , or lack of safety experience, I have had the same type of problem one day on a 45 carbine, It just came loose and moved forward off the rail, But had no problem 16 in barrel, But looking at that grip it does seem a bit weak, would of never used it on a 12G, thats for sure, Magpul makes a really good one for that type of shooting, have them on my Tavor and SBR ar-15s very secure.

    • The Brigadier

      Not necessarily. After he lost his hand and the weapon and grip were examined after the fact it probably showed that the nipple had sheared. It looks like a crappy system and the other one in the picture with the two allen screws is how every device I have installed on Pickatinny rails have always had. The guy is going to get a payday, about 100K for the hand and another 300K for pain and suffering. The lawyer will get half, but the victim will also get a prosthetic hand in the judgement. After this examine all ProMag parts for such shoddy design before you buy. I hope the payout will teach them a lesson.

      • Stijn Van Damn

        depends, was the promag designed with pump action shotguns in mind, or for use with AR15’s as a regular fore grip…

        There’s quite the difference in the mechanics and stresses involved for a pump gun.

  • Pseudodeus

    I fail to see how this is at all Kel-Tek’s liability. They have no control over what a user installs on a picatinny rail. If the entire rail mount had failed, then possibly.

    • Sam Schifo

      They could have integrated a hand stop on the pump just like many other firearms where the handguard is close to the muzzle.

      • n0truscotsman

        Why should they?

        If users dont have the common fucking sense to keep their hand away from the muzzle, then how else could they help them?

        The 4 rules dont give a fuck, even if you are being negligent.

        • Sam Schifo

          Hand stops aren’t to protect you from being stupid, they are to protect you from accidents. By your logic we shouldn’t have trigger guards, brass deflectors, heat shields, etc. either. When a firearm is designed so that even when you are holding it correctly your hand is near the muzzle, it needs a hand stop,

          • n0truscotsman

            then how did we not shoot hands with our Mk 18s? The handguard is closer to the muzzle than the Keltec.

            Your mention of trigger guards, etc is a false equivalence. Trigger guards are needed because of environmental factors that may cause a snag on the trigger. Brass deflectors? deflecting brass away from the users corneas. A lack of a stop on the keltec is not such a obvious safety issue.

            I agree that a devise wouldn’t be a terrible idea, but why it should be keltecs responsibility to add a stop when a shooter properly using the firearm shouldn’t have a issue to begin with?

          • Phil Hsueh

            The difference here is that with the Mk 18 your support hand is not integral to the operation of the weapon where as with the Kel-Tec, being a pump action shotgun, is, it’s not like you’re at risk of your hand flying in front of the barrel just from loading a round with a Mk 18 like you are with the Kel-Tec. Having said that I do agree that the fault does not lie with Kel-Tec since it’s up to the user to make sure that they’re using things safely and it was the foregrip that failed, not the weapon.

          • Alan

            The issue is foreseeability. If it is foreseeable that a competent user, using the device as designed could reasonable injure himself, then the maker has some obligation to fix that design flaw. If the people at promag knew there fore grip was going to be used to rack shotguns, they had a duty to make it strong enough. I think it is totally clear that a swell at the front would have prevented this, and other similar injuries.

            As to the reference to heat shields and brass deflectors. Those are exactly the types of examples I’m talking about. An identifiable hazard, to a competent correct user. If you know brass is getting kicked back into the face of a user, then it is inevitable someone is going to get an eye hurt. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out a heat shield is necessary.

            But that’s what courts are for. But I expect keltec and pro mag will be stand up troops, and pay the guy less than his lawyer wants, cuz that’s his job, but something fair, and then they’ll put a hand swell at the front of the grip.

            – Alan

          • A swell at the end of the rail would prevent the rail from being used as an accessory rail with actual high quality accessories.

            Or, users could simply not use air soft grade parts from a company widely known fr being the bottom of the barrel when choosing accessories for a shotgun.

          • Rick

            quiet, you! guns are toys and should be treated as such, with whatever fits for the cheapest price! If I get hurt it’s the fault of whomever sold it to me, and allowed it to be sold, and who made it, and…. /sarcasm

          • The Brigadier

            Or a couple of strong steel screw to secure it properly in the first place. There are also wedges with allen screws to secure things to Pickatinny and Weaver rails. They lock things down. Again for the umpteenth time, this was an INCREDIBLY SHODDY DESIGN. Forgive my shouting, but for heaven’s sake, write ProMag and tell them to pull that maiming grip from the market or you will never buy another ProMag product. It is THEIR FAULT! It is not the user’s who may be the world’s biggest numb nuts, but ProMag maimed him by cheapening out to make a few more bucks. I hope this justifiable payday cures the owners of their stupid greed if they have a company left.

        • Zapp Brannigan

          Essentially you are arguing for firearms that are less safe. That’s dumb.

          • John

            I think what he’s getting at is that while there is nothing wrong with kel-tec adding safety features, but it doesn’t mean they should be held legally liable for not having them. Companies add safety features regularly, but nobody is suing a car company because the model they bought didn’t come with active radar, brake assist or any number of possible optional safety features. If the gun acted exactly as it was designed, then the issue is with the shitty foregrips, not kel-tec.

          • n0truscotsman

            If that is all you are getting out of my arguments so far, then “dumb” is a word that should come to mind when you look in the mirror.

            Im arguing for gooddamned personal responsibility. Its not that difficult.

          • shootbrownelk

            My comment about your use of vulgar language has nothing whatever to do about your argument about personal responsibility, I agree with you on your points. They are valid. But there’s no need for foul language, it’s offensive. Or is it? Am I the only one?

        • shootbrownelk

          Scotsman, do you eat with that mouth? Let me guess, you’re NOT a Deacon at your local church. Try to make your point without all the four letter words. Folks tend to dismiss you as being ignorant.

          • n0truscotsman

            Thanks for the lecture. But if electon letters on a computer screen make you take offense, then you probably need a thicker skin.

          • Cymond

            Are you arguing that “electron letters on a computer screen” are meaningless?
            If you are, when you “can only handle so much lack of logic at a time” on a computer screen before you start cussing at people, then perhaps we’re not the ones with thin skin. You say you’re not mad, but you writing sure does come across that way.

          • n0truscotsman

            maybe instead of being worried if I’m mad or not (grow up), you can understand the simple concept of “personal responsibility”, which is my entire point on this thread. It sucks, but ultimately, that is what it comes down to. Its not like the Rem 700 trigger debacle for christ’s sake.

            Now that such a misunderstanding has been addressed, dont waste any more of my time

      • Guest

        Or, you know, you could just bolt a hand stop onto it like on this Diablo.
        http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4d/9e/b9/4d9eb99ebb8470c82e7493fe69094c4f.jpg

        • Rick

          I suspect this wouldn’t have helped, as people still wanted a foregrip for doing tacticool low pump shots. Your example is designed for a fixed handhold and not to stop repeated motion. A foregrip would’ve put the shooters hand below the stop enough to escape. If the shooter was out of control enough to create the original situation a little stop wouldn’t have sufficed. Make something idiot-proof and nature produces a better idiot.

          Guns are dangerous. treat em with respect. Don’t bet on the safety features alone. thats how i was raised, and with that attitude even case failures are nothing more than an unpleasant surprise.

          now if that pistol upper were a pump action, that’d give the CA legislation sh*t fits, as it would be perfectly legal to own LOL

      • sianmink

        Or you could just bolt a hand stop onto it like on this Diablo.

        • Nicholas C

          KSG came with factory handstops. Not sure if they stopped doing that, or if the user didnt use his. Mine came with one.

      • gunsandrockets

        Unless the missing hand stop was nearly as large as the vfg, a hand stop would not have prevented the accident at issue here.

        I think the plaintiff has a difficult case to prosecute.

        • Cymond

          I think a handstop would have prevented the vfg from sliding all the way forward and off the rail.

          • gunsandrockets

            Did the VFG slide off? Or break off?

          • Broke off

          • Cymond

            From the article above:
            “The properly installed forward grip slid off the gun rail while the user was pumping the gun, resulting in the user shooting off part of his hand,” the attorney wrote on a lawyers-only site.
            They also noted alleged problems with the forward grip: “Nothing but a polymer nipple secures this grip to the rail — this nipple partially sheared off during first use.” (emphasis mine)

            So from the sound of it, the “nipple” broke off, and the grip slid forward off the rail.

          • gunsandrockets

            The only way that sounds plausible is if the VFG was located on the forward-most position on the rail.

            The quote you provide also says ‘properly installed’. Forward most doesn’t sound proper to me, and from the description of the grip it doesn’t sound like a proper installation for a pump action shotgun either, bullpup shotgun or otherwise.

            The quote also says the nipple restraining the grip broke off ‘during first use’. Just reinforcing my other post that if the plaintiff had just done some vigorous dry firing first, this whole tragedy might have been prevented.

          • Cymond

            I think the attorney probably meant “proper” as in mechanical terms, not technique. The grip didn’t fail because it was bolted on wrong, it failed because it was a crappy grip.
            .
            I agree that the shooter should have been more cautious. There are SO many ways this could have been avoided: using a good quality grip, repositioning the grip, using a forward handstop, dryfire testing, etc.

          • Rick

            hell, I think the attorney is either lying, or simply going off the victim’s CYA statement.
            Just because the lawyer says it was properly installed doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.

          • Cymond

            Yes, true, but we have very little evidence either way. Since we don’t have anything to refute the statement except general suspicion, it’s hard to disregard the plaintiff’s version.

      • Unfortunately, installing a hard hand stop on the rail means that it no longer accepts most proper Picatinny accessories, that have to be slid down the rail and then secured.

        The cheap ass ProMag accessory with the plastic nib holding position (instead of a steel cross pin) failed under the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun.

        Use air soft quality parts on a heavy recoiling firearm, and this happens. Look, I’m no KelTec fanboi (good designs, *horrible* quality control) and dislike the KSG specifically, but it was the non-standard and subpar foregrip that failed, not the rail that is industry standard.

        • Cymond

          Why couldn’t they be slid on to the rail from the back? It’s open on both ends.

          • Um, because some people might not want to have to painstakingly (many proper Picatinny accessories are very tight) slide everything else off to access, say, the battery compartment in a forward mounted component.

            Cheap plastic breaks when subjected to heavy force. Had the VFG snapped clean off (which is *not* an unforseen consequence), no forward stop would have helped – but if a quality VFG had been used, it wouldn’t have happened.

            Why should KelTec use a nonstandard rail that makes the covienience of the 1913 rail less convenient, to accommodate people using seriously substandard parts?

            It’s like arguing that Ford should install runflat steel wheels inside their rims to accommodate people who patch tires with duct tape.

        • bmrtoyo

          pro mag is junk

    • JSmath

      They could have integrated a hand stop, but they don’t need to. Let morons like this blow half their hands off; frankly, they deserve it.

      Obvious workaround that was the users option and fault for not doing: He could have bought another vertical grip or picatinny grip to use as a hand stop.

      This is 100% his own fault, I’m looking forward to the court awarding him jackshit.

      • Bp. David

        I am wondering–how much did he drink or smoke that would have caused him to have so little control that his hand kept traveling an extra 9 or 10 inches. And why would he pull the trigger after he had lost control of the weapon? Sounds like either a drunk or a moron, neither of which should be within 100 yards of a weapon! Maybe the FBI is the one who should be sued if they ok’ed his background check.

      • Eh, no one deserves to be seriously injured for stupidity. (Eventhough I have wished pain upon stupid people before…)

        Pain is the body’s way of telling the person that whatever behavior was a bad idea. This guy cannot recuperate from this as easily as say… smashing your thumb with a hammer.

        I pity the pain the guy is feeling, and hope he recovers well enough to still continue working and supporting his family.

        • Jeremy Star

          Yes, yes they do. If you think that people don’t reap what they sow, well, I don’t know what to tell you.

          • I will not follow a fool into a burning home (analogy), but I will not hesitate to warn that person. If they choose to make poor decisions, yes, those behaviors belong on their own shoulders.

            “Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning”

            “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.”

            “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good
            for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those
            who hear.”

            You should even wish the fools and your enemies well.

    • bloodyspartan

      Politicians oops lawyers do not deal in logic.

      Just making money.

    • The Brigadier

      Its a piss poor design. Why are you defending it? Why would you want to put such a piss-poor product on your weapon? Since there is no industry safety group for all the products manufactured we leave it up the courts to punish shoddy design to regulate the marketplace and then we curse the courts and the injured party for it. Jeez Louise listen to yourselves.

  • big daddy

    Pro Mag…..everybody who knows firearms knows that the company has a poor reputation. Also the forward grip is one of the ways to operate a modern tactical pump SG. Anybody who knows about modern weapons knows that any item connected to a picatinny rail should have a bolt through it or better off 2. Pro Mag should include bolts or have large letters on the instructions they must be installed. Kel-Tec should have a hand stop at the end or at least recommend it on their instructions and not in small print. But the operator of the shotgun has some liability, especially if he is experienced. he should know better. Ignorance is a problem these days, personal accountability seems like it is going the way of the Dodo bird. Before I do anything I educate myself on it as much as I can. But that combination was an accident looking for a place to happen.

    • n0truscotsman

      Promag *can* do those things indeed, just like they *can* add steel lips and locking lugs to their AK magazines, but they refuse to fucking do it because they make a good business on people that buy their shit. Thats the problem.

      Keltec *could* have added the small print and highlighted it in their instructions in big fucking pink letters, but those letters and warnings would not have, in any way, magically prevented his grip from coming off and hand being placed over the muzzle and the unfortunate situation occurring.

      I would say the liability is ALL his, unfortunately, and only just so because he paid a high price for foolishness.

  • Chadd

    I see this happening while he was working the action on the forward stroke. Finger’s in the trigger guard when the VFG breaks off; his fist flies forward and his body tenses, finger pulls the trigger. I don’t really see any sort of stop that would be built into the gun being of much use in that situation.
    I don’t own any VFGs or a KSG but I’ve heard that it takes more effort to rack the action on a KSG when they’re new. Isn’t the Promag VFG he was using designed for rifles only? As in just designed to be stationary and not really have high loads applied to it.

    • Actually my KSG has always had the same feel when racking it. It’s an easy one to rack for sure.

    • Dracon1201

      Well, in addition, no handstop would have helped him. Think how you hold a vertical foreground on a KSG. He most likely had a fist out past the KSG in an awkward punching motion below where the handstop may have been in the design.

      • Cymond

        From the sound of it, the vertical foregrip is one that slides on and is then “secured” by a plastic “nipple” that protrudes into the slot on the rail. When the “nipple” broke, the foregrip was free to slide forward & backward on the rail. Virtually anything on the rail in front of the foregrip should have stopped it from sliding all the way forward.

  • Phil Blank

    Don’t try to hotrod a shotgun, keep your finger off the trigger when cycling a round. Its not to be used like that for rapid fire.
    Operator error!

      • Laserbait

        Yes really – operator error. Rule number #1, don’t pull the trigger when you hand is in front of the muzzle of a loaded gun.

        • And if you don’t have time to react?

          • Laserbait

            Oh sorry, I didn’t realize he was in a firefight, laying down suppressive fire so his buddies could gain cover. 😀

  • JT

    This was not the lawsuit I expected to result from the KSG. I expected to read that the cheap polymer rail cracked off (as other have reported) resulting in the accident. Seems like breaking new ground for railed bullpup shotguns. Don’t care though, KSG is garbage IMO, range toy at best

    • I had a problem with mine in the beginning but after it’s return I’ve had zero malfunctions of any kind. I’ve had it for a good while now.

    • JT

      Heh, I am an unabashed Kel-tec basher 🙂 Through my experience with the p3at 2nd gen I owned and stories from other owners I realized the main issue with KT was cheap parts, lack of extensive research and development, not poor fit an finish as other have mentioned (good gun, bad gun, fluff and buff). So as long as police don’t depend on it, I probably shouldn’t care. I had heard they had done something about the rail issue

      • Dracon1201

        Not everything is a POS P3AT. Keltec puts out some good products. The people with problems and haters are the most vocal. Try other matured Keltec designs and see what you think.

        • Zachary marrs

          “Kel tec puts out good products” do you live near a unicorn ranch or somthing?

          • Dracon1201

            No, I don’t. The people I know as well as myself have had nothing but success with Keltec products.

          • JT

            See, I will admit that not EVERYTHING that Kel-tec sells is garbage. I
            do believe that once in a while they legitimately put out a gun that
            doesn’t FTF/FTE or break from the factory, but seriously, “nothing but
            success with Keltec products.” I can’t believe you typed that with a
            straight face

          • Dracon1201

            It’s true, I have not had a failure besides my own operator error with any Keltec product. I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself and those around me who have reported as such.

          • Nicholas C

            They are what they are. I own the KSG, Sub2000 and PMR30. I treat them as range toys. I have other guns I could be using for serious matters. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love them any less.

          • JT

            And again the “POS p3at”, but for that model a lot of the posts were from Keltec owners that found their guns with broken hammer springs and wanted a fix from KT. Tons of posts on that parts failure

          • Dracon1201

            I wasn’t just condemning his P3AT with that statement, I was condemning all of them. They were abject crap. The design was not fully thought out, and execution was terrible. However, I was pointing out that experience with one product does not a full company QC damnation declare.

            If I had bought an R51, can I say Remington makes nothing but crap?

          • No you couldn’t say that about Remington and be correct anyway.

          • Dracon1201

            Same with Keltec. You can never throw a general statement like that out and be correct.

          • They make some decent guns. It just seems a fix of some sort is needed at times.

            Gotta take a break and feed the Unicorns—be back in a few–LOL!

          • me ohmy

            and goes to Disneyland for tactical training…as a space shuttle door gunner

          • I’d like that job—strafing old satellites!

      • You do make one good point and that is police don;t use Kel-Tecs that I know of. I was always issued a Remington 870 which was good enough for me.

      • KestrelBike

        I really like the Sub2000. *shrugs* But then again, that’s the limit to my Kel-Tec exposure.

  • Michael R. Zupcak

    Will someone please explain to me what “ksgpumping” is? Is this some style of shotgun pumping that Kel-Tec invented?

    • Zachary marrs

      Its when you try to rack the pump, only for it to jam up for multiple reasons

      • JumpIf NotZero

        You utterly win.

    • Articles often don’t transcribe properly, and require additional work to be formatted properly. Thanks for catching the error.

  • Shane

    The first time I saw the Kel-tec KSG, I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone blew their hand off. While the KSG looks cool, I would never shoot one.

    And yes, why would you put anything made by ProMag onto anything you are shooting for any reason at all?

  • natshare

    Yes, because personal responsibility is so overrated! I believe, if I were utilizing a firearm for the first time ever, or a new accessory, like a forward grip that would help me pump this shotgun, POTENTIALLY PUTTING MY HAND IN THE LINE OF FIRE, that I would dry pump & fire it a bit, to make sure the situation that actually DID happen, would not! Especially if I saw that the grip was only secured by a polymer nipple!!

    Makes you wonder how long it’s going to be, before someone sues Warner Brothers, because they saw Bugs Bunny stick his finger in the barrel of Elmer Fudd’s shotgun, thus causing it to explode in Elmer’s face……but when they tried it, it only took their hand off! SMH

  • Mystick

    Sue the grip manufacturer. That’s what failed. The rail didn’t come off the gun.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Did you read the article? Yes that’s exactly what the suit is claiming that the grip should not have been able to come off of the gun forwards.

      • Mystick

        Sorry not enough coffee… I was under the impression Kel-Tec was the defendant.

      • Laserbait

        A better question would be, did you read the article.They’re both going to be defendants.

        “An attorney in Virginia preparing a lawsuit that they will likely file against Kel-Tec and ProMag Industries.”

        “A Virginia man is filing a lawsuit against Kel-Tec and ProMag Ind. after the failure of a ProMag vertical foregrip led to an accident that resulted in the loss of most of his hand:”

  • n0truscotsman

    The moral of the story is:

    1.) trigger finger plus trigger is a beautiful combination, until something is in the way of the muzzle that isn’t intended to be destroyed. Im not going to judge the person here, but its quite obvious what the root problem is. The lesson has been hopefully learned (the hard way).

    2.) promag is shit. And I’ve been ranting and raving about them and their shitty AK mags for what seems like an eternity, and everybody jumps up my ass for being too harsh and “tacticool snob”. Well gee. I hate being proven right in this instance. Unfortunately somebody had to get seriously jacked up for my point to be honed in.

    Its no mystery why promag, tapco and any of their ilk are rightfully the punching bag for mockery by serious shooters. Maybe the lawsuit will teach them a valuable lesson about pressing quality rather than junk (and I dont even blame them personally, but maybe they will use this as a learning experience).

    3.) Suing firearm manufacturers and accessory manufacturers is the wrong answer, especially due to what is obviously an act of negligence. Its no different than me suing the tire and car manufacturer when i hot rod my car past its intended limits and end up fucking myself up in a car crash. I never understood that mentality.

    *note: im having a hard time understanding how he could have shot his hand. A very hard time.

    • nadnerbus

      Plus one on Pro mag. Have yet to see one of their mags function in even an adequate manner, much less with high reliability. Tapco might be kinda cheap, but it usually works ok. Good for range toy stuff anyway.

      Anyone just getting into guns, there is a reason some stuff is more expensive. If you get the cheap knock-off, you will probably regret it at some point.

      • Bp. David

        It’s the fault of the idiot with no left hand–he should not have bought the cheap Chinese crapolla!

  • I think the fact that he admits that he knew the grip was broken Before the accident and ignored it is going to bite him in the ass.

  • John

    That’s an airsoft grip. For crying out loud.

    • sianmink

      I looked all over promag’s site, searching for some sort of disclaimer. There was none. I was kind of surprised.

      • rrdonovan

        What? You gonna shoot your hand off with an airsoft gun? Lame, pretty lame…..

  • David Sharpe

    I can sorta see his point on suing Pro-Mag, but not Kel-tec. The Keltec product didn’t fail, the Pro-Mag one did.

  • John

    Don’t put anything on a gun that’s not bullet proof. This piece looks like a toy. I would not have put it on a 12 gauge!

    • sianmink

      And don’t put anything on a 12 gauge that isn’t bolted down and threadlocked.

  • MOG

    Shoot crap, get burned. I am sorry for his injuries however.

  • Bill

    Short, and by virtue of design the KSG is short, shotguns are not infrequently involved in incidents like this, particularly the sub 18 inch guns. I realize everyone on the web is an expert, but running those guns at speed with duty loads made me realize the value of “mudflats” keeping the reactionary hand from slipping forward of the muzzle, particularly when sweaty. Those Mossberg handstraps on their fore-ends weren’t entirely stupid, and some pretty highly trained people got dinged when the MP5K came out.

    • You need the end of the rail to be free, to be able to slide high quality parts (that don’t “clamshell” around the rail) on. And you need to use parts that have real cross bolts to engage the Picatinny slots the way the 1913 rail is designed to be engaged.

      And if you do this, you not only do not need an extra hands too on the end, but it won’t help anyway, since the only way you could have a catastrophic failure while pumping the gun would be if the grip broke clean off at the base or the rail itself fell off – in which case any additional hand stop won’t be in play anyway.

      This guy *did* have a hand stop. The ProMag VFG. His handstop failed entirely, because it’s a cheap piece of flimsy plastic. I *any* liability outside the shooter is involved, it is wholly ProMag.

      I wonder if KelTec could get enough of his ProMag winnings to make it worth while countersuing this idiot for a frivolous lawsuit.

  • Vhyrus

    Had a similar situation happen with the same handle, only I was shooting a saiga so I didn’t lose my hand.

  • Al

    Well, looks like promag copied the KAC VFG, and a bit too well, as the Knight’s vertical grip also is retained on the rail by a plastic nipple. And they break off. All the time. Without being pumped on a shotgun hand guard. Just ask anyone issued one…

    • big daddy

      The handgrip on my DDM4V5 was also held in by a plastic nipple. Although stronger than the Promag I removed it and added a Magpul AFG with a bolt. I would never use anything on a rail without a bolt. The idea of racking a 12G SG with anything not connected to the rail with a bolt is crazy stupid. And if the rail itself is plastic 2 bolts. If the rail was plastic on the Ket-Tec I don’t think I would have bought or even fired it frankly.

      • sianmink

        if you can’t swing the gun around over your head by the foregrip without it coming off, then it wasn’t attached in the first place.
        (protip: don’t swing a gun around over your head by the foregrip. I’m just illustrating a point)

  • AJ187

    I had one of the cheaper VFG’s like this and I sold it because it slid back on my carbine hand guard. Didn’t know if I torqued it tight enough, probably a channel lock would of cinched it tight enough, but how could you trust it?

    Point is, all of us who dabble in personalizing, let alone building our own guns, need to vet our choices of firearm and accessories with the utmost scrutiny. Seems like that simple concept has been lost as common sense becomes less common…..

  • Gordon J Davis Jr

    The military uses forward vertical grips of the same design, but much higher quality than ProMag (KAC and Tango Down grips).

    Honestly, this is what happens when you use cheap stuff.

  • Asdf

    Don’t buy cheap shit equipment.

  • me ohmy

    sounds like bad gun handling and an idiot not using the correct stubbie grip..,that unit isnt INTENDED to rack a shottie. that said.. both of these items are utter crap.. kel-tec has NEVER impressed me. and PRO MAG is sincerely hit or miss…..literally

  • Tim Pearce

    He still pulled the trigger to fire the round that destroyed his hand, because the gun is designed such that that is the only way it could happen. He did it to himself. Lawsuit dismissed. (if only it were that simple)

  • dan citizen

    I think there Is something to the technical aspect of what the injured guy is saying. Though I don’t necessarily think it means he deserves to win $$$.

    – A hand stop at the front of the slide (ala MP5k) would probably be a good thing, sweaty/bloody hands can slip at the worst time.

    – A stop on the front of the Picatinny could be a good safety innovation. This accident could have happened if a laser or flashlight popped off at the wrong moment.

    Being old I can’t help but think “mall-ninja-tactical-operator” every time I see a vertical foregrip that’s not on a thompson or beretta model 12.

    • Sez Eye

      Maybe he should have bought a hand stop rather than a cheap vert. grip. I have hand stops on all my short ARs, Anything that lets my hand get to within 3 inches, or past, the muzzle with arms at full extension, has a hand stop. Handguns excepted.

  • t_reese

    If I were the judge and this case was brought before me I would say to the guy;
    dumb a**, case dismissed!

  • Andy

    Get ready for warning labels on VFGs to say “for use in stationary position on rifles only”. I thought that one was somewhat common sense given the way they mount. Shooter used an item for other than which it was intended (massive torque on a cheap VFG). Shooter is to blame.

  • An Interested Person

    As an owner of such a grip(long story, but I would/have never put it on a real firearm) I can testify to the shoddy materials.

    It is waaay too easy to mount it on a rail, and simply squish the nipple without having it go into a slot. Which would allow it to easily “shear” and slide off.

  • gunsandrockets

    For me, the moral of this story is: dry fire the crap out of brand new gear/modifications and inspect the results before going hot!

  • BruceLeroy

    Stupid wins in court unfortunately. Shame on this blog for posting a pic with a Magpul grip, though they did mention that in the article.

  • DiverEngrSL17K

    RE : Paragraph 6 — ‘The attorney cites the compact nature of the KSG, and the fact there is nothing on the rail “to prevent the grip from sliding off” ‘.

    This attorney is clearly demonstrating a gross ignorance of the hard facts. A Picatinny rail has slots cut between the raised sections of the rail for the exact purpose of providing substantial structure for cross-lock bolts and other such retainers, normally present in any properly-designed rail-mounted accessory, which will prevent any lateral or longitudinal movement under the most extreme and demanding conditions if correctly installed. In short, the Picatinny rail provides the necessary receptacle for lock-down, and the accessory is supposed to provide the means for that lock-down. This has been proven in countless millions of applications all over the world ever since M1913 Picatinny rails were first introduced into service many, many decades ago.

    While the KSG is far from being my preferred shotgun, it is equally ridiculous to cite it’s compact nature as being a contributory cause in itself, the only possible exception being installation of the foregrip right at the very forward end of the rail close to the muzzle, which would increase the user’s exposure to muzzle blast if his weak ( support ) hand were to slip forward.

    Frankly, based on the available information, the cause of the incident appears to be a combination of possible user error and the fact that the Promag foregrip does not have a proper cross-lock bolt to positively engage the Picatinny rail. A small retention nipple is not a good means for securely locking the foregrip in place under mechanical stress.

  • Cal S.

    Sorry for the guy, but if he can sue over the deficiencies, why couldn’t he have noticed them in the first place?

  • SM

    So, some guy blew his hand off while using a firearm and a cheap, broken fore grip (that he probably damaged) and wants to blame the manufacturer?

  • ensitue

    I heard he was gonna sue his mom as well, or maybe it was the other way round

  • Smokey_the_Bear

    while he was cocking it, his hand would’ve been moving forward when it broke off the rail…so I don’t understand how the gun could fire???

    • Cymond

      My guess? Without his left hand supporting the front, the muzzle dropped down. At the same time, his right hand felt the gun dropping and tried to hold on – TIGHT. His right-hand grip tensed and he accidentally pulled the trigger. There have been many, many cases of people accidentally pulling triggers when startled or tense.
      .
      Of course, this is all just my speculation, and I’m assuming he was right handed.

      • Bryan

        I agree. Once the unsupported muzzle began to fall, he instictively gripped it with his right hand, inadvertently pulling the trigger.

        That said, who puts such a cheap-ass foregrip on a $1,200.00 shotgun?

  • Cymond

    Wow, awful lot of angry people here who can’t see how this could possibly be an accident. Someone laid out a very believable sequence of events. Well fine, whatever.
    .
    Here’s a guy who shot his hand with a full-auto Glock 17 conversion. This was not his own firearm, but one someone let him shoot. The vertical foregrip is mounted on the rail on the dustcover. Under recoil and stress, the rail broke. At some point in a split second, his hand moved in front of the muzzle and he shot himself. It’s hard to tell, but it didn’t look that bad.
    .
    The owner of the Glock posted this on youtube:
    “remember me?? I was the guy who owned the glock. I also asked you if you wanted to shoot it and you said no. it is all legal I am a class 2 mfg (FFL/SOT holder to mfg machine guns and silencers and other NFA weapons) that is a glock 17C converted to full auto by me legally. I asked you if you wanted to shoot it and you said no. just to clear things up. the grip is made in israel for there special forces, just for Glocks which they use extensively. it is not some cheap air soft grip that I jimmy rigged on the gun. although you could use it on any acc. rail. the rail on the glock is not just used to flashlights and lasers. it is an accessory rail for any acc. this accident was complete user error, he basically held the front grip tight and did not hold the gun tight enough when it recoiled he was pushing forward on the grip so hard that it broke off the gun. it actually broke a chuck out of the bottom of the Glocks receiver. the grip for a lack of better explanation was ripped off the front of the gun. I fired 10’s of thousands of rounds through that gun before this happened and I have used it since with no problem. you may post this email from me under the video if you wish or not either way it does not matter to me. I just see allot of arm chair commandos that don’t really know what there talking about making comments and I just wanted to set the records straight. feel free to email me back and ask nay questions you want.”
    .
    Of course, the owner’s comment is not an impartial view of what happened.
    .

  • PD

    Makes perfect sense to me, if you are firing the shotgun rapidly and your hand were to slip off it is naturally going to keep moving forward while the weight of the unsupported muzzle makes it drop putting your hand in danger. The momentum the gun moving forward could cause you to pull the trigger similar to a bump fire. This seems to be an inherent danger of bullpup shotguns.

    • Bill

      Bingo. When it happens with full-auto subguns the muzzling typically rising, so it is easier to avoid a shooting

  • Zapp Brannigan

    I think that many people turn to the ‘That guy was a total idiot’ response in situations like this because they want to convince themselves that this kind of accident will never happen to them. They can’t put any of the blame on a design failure because that means they are now at risk from something they can’t control or can’t foresee.

  • DUDE SWEET

    “Dude watch me bump fire my pump zombie shotgun, hold my beer!!!!”

  • b

    I am not an expert. Still, this non-expert thinks that even if a forward grip came off, the shooter would have to pull the gun backward & point it further down from its initial orientation in order to get his hand in front of the muzzle.

  • Chris Richardson

    Purely operator error. If the front grip slid off the FIRST TIME FIRED, why in the hell did the operator continue to use the firearm? Furthermore, after that occurred, any experienced person would have made safe and fixed the problem. #Darwin

  • hellsg

    User error. Foretold aren’t designed for the force necessary to pump the action in the first place. Especially this firearm which I believe requires more force to do so.

  • ThomasD

    That little nub of polymer was supposed to bear the force of repeated cycling fore and back?

    Can’t say I think Kel-Tec should bear any responsibility, but it seems to me that ProMag and the unfortunate user both share the blame. One for marketing something so obviously likely to fail, and the other for not recognizing the same. Neither of those two seem to have thought things through.

    I wonder of discovery will find that the part was originally intended to be metal, but got replaced with polymer by some bean counter?

  • Scott

    A damn shame really. Thoughts go out to him and his family. Anyone know what range in VA this happened at?

  • Stephen

    Promag – High quality gear for Airsofters worldwide!

    Unless there was a problem with the KT rail failing, I would say that Promag is in trouble. Granted I don’t know anyone who uses promag stuff on their rigs because they are so crappy – and I have seen lots of airsofters use promag stuff.

    I would say the majority of the blame rests on the shooter – its obvious that he was driving faster than he could control the gun. I guess whoever has the biggest pockets and what judge this comes before will decide.

    If the judge is a libtard then the guy will probably win. Then gun and accessory companies will add an additional disclaimer to their gear so they won’t get hit with another lawsuit down the road.

    I feel sorry for the guy – losing a hand. Thats gotta suck.

  • Nicholas C

    My KSG, that I bought in March 2012 came with a factory hand stop. It was not factory installed but it came with one, which I put on and never took off.

  • fanta claus

    Thats what happens when you put a $3 grip on a $1000 shotgun! If you are a firearms enthusiast you know to steer WAAAAYYY clear of Pro Mag…cheap shit junk made by ‘tards…Vernon Jones for President 2016!!!!

  • USMCVeteran

    I own a KSG and find it a totally reliable firearm. I have tried only the ProMag magazines and have found them to be un-reliable so I have always avoided all ProMag products.

  • joe

    Isn’t the archangel grip designed for the archangel stock set which goes on rimfires from what I’ve seen.

  • Unlucky Eddy

    “The properly installed forward grip slid off the gun rail while the user
    was pumping the gun, resulting in the user shooting off part of his
    hand,”

    If it was properly installed then it shouldn’t have slipped off… Furthermore if you are modding your weapon then getting the right parts for that weapon is essential. I spend hours researching scopes and scope mounts for my weapons, just to make sure that I’m not buying a .22lr scope for a .30-06 (that and I’m ADD so when I see something shiny I have to stop and look….)

    • screwtape2713 .

      ProMag sells two different versions of a foregrip in the Archangel line: an aluminum one billed as ‘heavy duty’ and sold for $70, that uses a crossbolt as well as friction to hold it in place, and a plastic one for $20 that is presumably NOT ‘heavy duty’…

      Now, to be fair to the shooter here, I see nothing on the ProMag website to suggest that the $20 plastic foregrips should only be used on stationary rails and not on pump shotguns. In fact, the Archangel line actually includes complete sets of ‘tactical’ furniture for the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 pump guns. And the forends on those sets have short rail at the front, presumably for lights, but one could also put a foregrip there.

      I imagine it would be quite natural, if one bought a plastic Archangel furniture set for a Remmy pump and wanted to put a foregrip on it, to buy a matching Archangel plastic foregrip. And up here in Canada, a quite popular ‘backpacker’ modification to the Remmy 870 for wilderness bear defence sets them up with 8″ to 12″ barrels. With an 8″ barrel, the muzzle is maybe an inch at most in front of the end of the forend, much like the KSG… Of course, for that very reason, most of the guys up here with those sort of uber-short pump guns either have hefty handstops at the end of their forends or else they have one of those one of those handstrap guards on the forend…

      On the other hand, looking at the Archangel foregrips, both the aluminum and the plastic versions are clearly designed to be held in place not by that little ‘nub’ but by a very secure ‘friction weld’ of the entire grip. An inch-wide column in the middle of the handle screws down tightly against the top of the rail, pulling the entire base slot up tightly against the underside of the rail dovetail, locking the entire grip immovably in place. The little nub just projects into one of the rail notches as an emergency ‘safety stop’ in case you don’t have your grip screwed down tight enough and it works loose and starts to slide along the rail… To be honest, I don’t entirely understand how this particular shooter’s grip could suddenly “slide” off the end of the rail with no warning at all – there should have been some ‘play’ noticeable in it as it started to work loose before it loosened enough to be able to slide right off the rail…)

  • jeffrey melton

    IMHO the gun worked as designed, pull trigger, gun goes bang. Defective grip.

    • gunslinger

      methinks this. unless they are trying to say, the user had to install something because of negligence on KTs design, that would allow a hand to move forward in front of the barrel.

  • petru sova

    build it faster, build it cheaper with junk plastic. If the consumer gets killed or maimed, well its his fault for being stupid enough to buy it and use it right? Wrong. When companies do not test their products which result in them failing then they are responsible for the tragedy even if the consumer is also partly to blame because if such product were designed properly the accident never would have happened in the first place. This isn’t rocket science. Why do you think we have safety glass in autos or anti-lock brakes. These safety devices work and are not a communist left wing conspiracy.

    • screwtape2713 .

      Yeah, but if the owner decides to “mod” his automobile and replace the automobile ABS brakes with a set of calipers designed for a bicycle, or a plastic windshield designed as a motorcycle windscreen…

  • Will

    What is BLATANTLY obvious is….
    NONE OF US WERE THERE!!!!
    Ease off a bit on the “Monday morning quarterbacking”.
    Opinions are one thing. Being an opinionated jack ass is another.
    PLAY NICE!!!

  • Ben Enjerry

    “Some KSG’s run like sewing machines?” Huh? This man sounds like another neophyte who bought into the merits of plastic junk masquerading as a tacti-cool toy. Bet he was proud of “his build” and even has a YouTube video of it somewhere on the ‘net as he’s fanning birdshot loads at imaginary bad guys downrange. Guns aren’t toys. Hope he learns his lesson.

  • Buffaloclassic

    Polymer nipple… great on Pamela Anderson, not so much on a shotgun!

  • mxprivateer

    “…the primary cause may well have been equipment failure.”

    The primary cause was purchasing something manufactured by ProMag and placing it on a KelTec product.

  • DMG

    Why pay the price of this gun and put a cheap plastic grip on and expect it to hold up ?

  • Alan

    I am deeply sorry for the poor guy that shot his hand off. Jesus can you imagine the pain? Or having lost your hand. Thankfully it’s his off hand. But here’s the deal. If he was acting like a horses ass, it’s no ones fault but his own. On the other hand, if his injury was the result of equipment failure, there was no substantial fault on his part and those facts are established by credible evidence as found by a neutral court, Why shouldn’t he be compensated? Anyone?

  • Anon. E Maus

    If he has to sue anyone, make it ProMag, but it’s not KelTec’s fault your stupid ass put a cheap shitty aftermarket grip on their gun. Yes, the gun is short, that’s it’s selling point, if you can’t handle it safely knowing this, it’s nobody’s fault but your own.

    I understand that Americans see lawsuits as a way to get restitution, but this man needs to take responsibility for his own mistake.

  • Alan

    As an aside. A testifying expert is paid about $500 an hour, for lots and lots of hours. So If you are honest and know your stuff, why not?

  • motoguzzi

    Until the Neostead becomes widely available in the US, I will stay away from pump action bullpup shotguns. Although an older design it does use the correct pump stroke for bullpups, forward to eject and back to chamber a round, backwards from most shotguns but for a reason.

  • RICHARD

    I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THIS POLYMER NIPPLE ON MY AK… THE FIRST TIME I FIRED MY RIFLE WITH IT, THE DAMN THING CAME OFF IN MY HAND ALMOST IMMEDIATELY. UNLIKE THIS GENTLEMAN, I IMMEDIATELY INSPECTED IT AND SAW THE POLYMER NIPPLE WAS SEARED ABOUT HALF WAY OFF DUE TO THE SOFTNESS OF THE POLYMER. I THREW IT AWAY DENOTING THAT IT WAS A PIECE OF GARBAGE AND BOUGHT ANOTHER THAT USED 2 SCREWS THAT HELD IT DIRECTLY TO THE RAIL SO THAT IT WOULD BE PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE IT FALL OFF. THE COMPANY THAT MAKES THAT FORWARD GRIP OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T TEST THEIR UNIT AND SHOULD BE PUT OUT OF BUSINESS

  • maodeedee

    I’ve never been interested in a bull-pup pump. If someone would make one in semi-auto then I’d start saving my nickels, dimes, and quarters.

    Otherwise, thanks but no thanks.I also don’t like the ergonomics of the Kel-tec as far as switching the magazines.As far as the Lawsuit, I see no culpability in regards to Kel-tec, but the way most liability lawsuits are conducted always involves the “shotgun” approach of suing multiple plaintiffs.

    Additionally what happened here could happen with any feature on any firearm which compels the shooter to put any part of the hand dangerously close to the muzzle of the gun while at the same time orienting the gun in an awkward and more dangerous position closer to the body. Specifically, I’m talking about forward slide serrations on semi-auto pistols, which unfortunately has recently become the latest fad.

    • Bill

      High Standard, around 1965. I have no idea of what they are worth now.

      Forward slide serrations are the cat’s PJs. They are for doing press checks from under the gun and make it far easier than with a greasy slide and sweaty hands. If the person doing it is in an “awkward and more dangerous position,” they are doing it wrong. They are NOT for chambering a round, just checking to make certain one is there.

  • William Smith

    Hmm… That foregrip was never intended for use on anything other than an Airsoft gun. Other grips are available that mount with screws and they certainly wont ‘slide’ off. Where did the guy buy the grip? E-Bay? The gun didn’t come with it from Kel-Tec, that’s for sure. I don’t see Kel-Tec having any liability here whatsoever. The guy pulled the trigger and the gun went BOOM just like it’s supposed to. As for Promag – I don’t see them being liable either. The guy was stupid – plain and simple. He used a product improperly having bought the incorrect product. Again, stupidity. Then, somehow, he managed to shoot his own hand off – more stupidity. I wonder just how drunk he was? People who don’t know how to use a gun safely shouldn’t be firing guns. OK – so we now know the base of what happened. Who uses a foregrip pushing it forwards anyway? All it’s for is for holding the weapon with the forehand in a different position than having it on the hand guard. The natural tendency would be to have backwards pressure on it. The gun didn’t fail, the rail didn’t fail so, nothing wrong with the Kel-Tec. That grip must come with instructions on the package. All in all this seems to be simple user malfunction and now, he’s looking to get some free cash for being stupid and shooting his own hand off.

    • Daisuke0222

      Unfortunately he probably will get some free cash out of this. I’ll bet his argument will be that KT should have included some sort of positive stop at the end of the rail to prevent items from slipping off under recoil or whatever. And he’ll argue that Promag should have included a warning on the package that their vertical grip wasn’t intended for use on pump action shotguns, or some crap like that. KT & Promag will end up settling to avoid a trial and write this numbskull a check to make him go away.

      • William Smith

        Unfortunately you’re probably right. That is the most likely outcome.

        • Daisuke0222

          If that happens I hope there won’t be any admission of liability on the part of either company.

  • Hank Seiter

    What a moron. Who puts a forward grip on a pump shotgun? Unless the slide fore-end is manufactured in one piece with a forward grip, there’s no guarantee the add-on won’t fail at some point. I don’t know, maybe Kel-Tec is stupid enough to recommend adding some cheap-ass forward grip. If the consumer wasn’t so cheap he’d probably still have the full use of his hand.
    Buyer beware … the shooter bears the greater responsibility here about knowing his weapon and using it the way it was designed. But don’t worry, there’s some numbskull judge or bleeding-heart jury that is more than willing to stick it to some gun manufacture for the recklessness of a consumer.
    The guy is probably one of those contestants for the Darwin Awards who would buy a lawnmower and after mowing the lawn then pick it up with his hands to use it as hedge clippers, thus losing his fingers in the process.

  • Bill Liles

    Personally I would never put a vertical foregrip on a shot gun. Especially as I am a vigorous shucker and believe those things have no place on a pump gun. Lights only or perhaps a sling mount as long as it does not interfere with shucking.

  • Kevin Stall

    Whay does two pistol grips make it? Not an assualt weapon, maybe an end of the world weapon?

  • Errr…

    This is a pretty sad event.
    My observation: It looks like that ProMag foregrip installs by sliding it onto the rail without any clamps or screws, so to me it seems pretty dumb to think that something you had just yanked onto the rail would stay there while being yanked back and forth. Especially when it apparently takes more effort to rack the slide on a KSG than it does to mount the Archangel foregrip.

  • JH

    My 1911 blew up in my hand. The back pressure blew the remaining rounds in the magazine out the bottom of the magazine and while I don’t know if this is what Wilson had in mind when they designed the mag I do know that the sudden relief of the back pressure probably saved me from a potentially serious injury to my hand and face. (Thank you Wilson)
    It was determined by the manufacturer that the recoil spring was weak and by being weak did not bring the slide into full battery. The manufacturer, with whom I had to agree to a confidentiality statement, replaced the pistol with a new pistol, at their cost, which I was happy with because I didn’t have two grand laying around to pay full price for a new one and the old one was completely totaled.
    I didn’t sue anyone, fortunately the only thing hurt was my pride, and essentially any fault was mine.
    Check your equipment. Guns are mechanical devices and any mechanical device will eventually fail without proper maintenance.
    Gaston Glock has been sued more times than you can shake a stick but has never been in a court room to defend his products his motto is “pay them what they want, settle the law suite and move on,” or words to that effect. Probably not a bad strategy, seems to be working.

  • noguncontrol

    and this is why i prefer subguns, PCCs and handguns over shotguns.

  • jeff

    plain and simple this is not the way the firearm is intended to be used. putting a vertical fore grip on the weapon changes the characteristics of the weapon. for example putting a magpul bad lever on an ar15 changes the way the user interacts with the weapons charging system. there are many many aftermarket parts for firearms . company’s cannot be expected to make their weapon systems compatible for every part out there. the way the weapon comes is the way it is meant to be used period. the kel tec does not come with a vertical fore grip so why is it kel tecs fault when that’s the reason the person got hurt?

    • Ed Gooding

      I love my KSG and I’m a fan of the company, but this is a quote from their website about the KSG:

      “The pump includes an under picatinny rail for the mounting of a forward grip, a light, or a laser. ”

      When you include rails on a gun, you are are least implying to the buyer that they can hang any add-on products that fit the rail – that’s the point of rails. You can personally choose to not do this, but you can’t hardly fault others who may choose to add vertical foregrips or other add-ons, especially when the manufacturer of the gun says it’s ok.

      • jeff

        yes i agree they have the rails for accessories. but what if a company made banana peel fore-grips and you put one on the weapon . you are asking for trouble . just like if you drive your car with a doughnut tire. sure it fits but is it the proper thing. no. this vfg has a small nipple to hold it on. was it the right one to use in this application. i think not . how is that keltecs fault?

        • Ed Gooding

          I never said that it was Kel Tec’s fault. I just said that they advertise on their website that you can put a forend grip on their shotgun.

          • gunslinger

            so if i put a “VFG” on a ksg which consists of a stick and bubble gum, and it fails, it’s Kel Tec’s fault?

          • Ed Gooding

            Again, when the hell did I say that anything was Kel Tec’s fault? And I certainly never said that ridiculous hypothetical scenarios like you and jeff describe would be anybody’s fault. If you have an opinion or a point to make, how about making it without putting words in someone else’s mouth to justify your point of view?

          • gunslinger

            where? “When you include rails on a gun, you are are least implying to the buyer that they can hang any add-on products that fit the rail – that’s the point of rails. You can personally choose to not do this, but you can’t hardly fault others who may choose to add vertical foregrips or other add-ons, especially when the manufacturer of the gun says it’s ok.”

            does that not hint/imply that KT should have anticipated inferior designs on their product? I think that’s asking a bit much.

            anyway, my point was while there may be a “standard” rail design, there should be some common sense among the user to rationalize if a product would be suited for that application.

          • Ed Gooding

            Did you miss the part that I copied right off the product description page of Kel Tec’s website? Here’s a replay:

            “The pump includes an under picatinny rail for the mounting of a forward grip, a light, or a laser. ”

            It’s not an implication. The manufacturer of the KSG is telling people, explicitly, that they can attach a “forward grip.”

            You may choose not to do so on your KSG, and you may be of the opinion that vertical foregrips have no place on a pump shotgun. You are entitled to both. But, so are others entitled to their opinions and their right to dress out their shotguns the way they like them, especially when the manufacturer explicitly says that it’s ok.

          • gunslinger

            congratulations. you can copy/paste.

            you are making it sound like KT is responsible for others failings. that because they offer an option, they need to accept and make work the 1000s of rail accessories. is that true?

          • Ed Gooding

            I have done NO such thing – show me where I have stated that. You are CHOOSING to interpret my statements that way. I have at no time stated that Kel Tec is responsible for this, not even when offering my own anecdotal information. Snide comments about my ability to copy and paste, when I was just proving my assertions about Kel Tec saying that the lower rail would accommodate a vertical foregrip shows a lack of security about your own opinions on this. Why launch an ad hominem attack against someone who might have a differing opinion, other than the fact that you are not secure in your opinions? We have a guy in White House who operates the same way these days. You planning on running for office?

          • gunslinger

            just because you voted for obama, don’t make it my problem.

            and you are CHOOSING (see i can use caps too!) to interprest my statements whatever way makes you feel all butthurt.

            you are CHOOSING to read them. why not just let it go?

          • Ed Gooding

            I voted for Obama? Do you have reading comprehension problems??? For the record, I am hard core tea party activist. You should let it go – you’re sounding like a 13 year old here. That you may own firearms is getting kind of scary here. Or, are you just the resident troll in this forum?

          • gunslinger

            Resident troll? um..no. you on the other hand…

          • Ed Gooding

            Um….yeah…you have contributed no facts, no statistics, no anecdotal information that is on topic here – just personal attacks. That’s a troll….and you be it, little boy.

          • gunslinger

            and yet you keep attacking me. like a troll.

          • Ed Gooding

            I call em like I see em, troll-boy. This was my thread – you jumped in and have contributed nothing of value to the content. I hate trolls. I know that you guys have this deep need to always have the last word. Being an anti-troll, I know that it gets your panties all up in a wad to not have the last word. Let’s see if you can prove me right and come back again.

          • gunslinger

            then you need to get your eyes looked at. or at least look in the mirror.

            and by me posting doesn’t “make me a troll”

            how about this, you are a troll. and you need to have the last word. So lets see if you panties are really in a wad and have to come back.

          • Ed Gooding

            Thanks for proving me right, troll-boy.

          • gunslinger

            thank you for proving ME right, troll-girl

          • Ed Gooding

            Ooooohhh, that’s definitely a panties wadding up in a bunch response. You’ll be walkin’ funny for a week, cupcake.

          • gunslinger

            i can see that your panties are wadding just as much. you are walking the same honeybuns.

          • Ed Gooding

            You can’t see diddly. Gunslinger – your gay bar handle?

          • gunslinger

            For someone who claims “to hate trolls”
            you sure as hell are acting like one.

          • Ed Gooding

            You jumped in on my post and have posted nothing of value. You are the troll – go create your own post and stay off mine, or just head over the to gay bar to sling your little pistol.

          • gunslinger

            now who is posting nothing of value? who is throwing attacks now?

          • Ed Gooding

            I’m just returning fire, cupcake. A real “gunslinger” should understand that. Again, stay the hell off my posts if you don’t have anything substantive to offer.

          • gunslinger

            so why not take a cup of your own advice and “stay the hell off of my posts”?

            especially since you have nothing substantive to offer

          • Ed Gooding

            Again we see the reading comprehension issues – you really need to go take remedial course. Kel Tec seems to think that my first post in this thread is substantive. But of course, they apparently can understand the PR and litigation context of it. You’re shootin’ blanks, gunslinger.

  • Ed Gooding

    I experienced the same problem with my KSG and an add-on vertical foregrip with only one screw to attach it. I did not shoot myself, but I pretty much crapped myself when it happened. My opinion only on this – I think the culprit is the plastic lower rail and a plastic vertical foregrip that was only secured with a single screw. I seem to have solved the problem by buying a steel rail that slides over and attaches to the plastic rail, and a different vertical foregrip that is attached with two screws. My speculation (because I have no way of knowing for sure) is that plastic on plastic and one screw will not do the job of keeping the vertical foregrip secured. The KSG requires very crisp and full strokes to cycle properly and a vertical grip seems to give much more leverage and pressure on the attaching point. Again, my opinion and speculation on cause, but it has not repeated (thank God) since I installed the steel over-rail and new vertical foregrip. The rail stop may also be a less expensive solution to this issue.

  • Tangodown

    Hard to say WHO/WHAT’s at fault, not knowing the whole story (facts). KNOW THY equipment!

  • DO1

    Why did the gun go off in the first place? Maybe finger on trigger?

  • R U Kdn Me

    I wouldn’t pay this idiot a friggin dime..He would have chopped off his hand checking how fast the lawn mower blade was spinning anyhow.. Just looking at the grip he was using says it all..It was not designed for anything other than firing a low caliber fun gun, not for cycling a shotgun..

  • Bluto Blutarski

    “better him than us”