Firebird Precision TAC12A1: American-made Saiga-12 Alternative

Photos (C) Oleg Volk

Photos (C) Oleg Volk

Kalashnikov manufactured Saiga 12 and VEPR shotguns will be fast running out of stock, if they haven’t already. Atlantic Arms, a well known retailer of Russian and Eastern European firearms, ran out of all Saiga 12 shotguns on 17 July (VEPR shotguns are still listed as in stock). Many shooters will be on the look out for an alternative to these Russian tactical magazine-fed auto-shotguns. One such option is the American-made (they can’t impose sanctions!) Firebird Precision TAC12A1.

The Firebird Precision TAC12A1 is an AR-style shotgun that can use a 18 round box magazine. It is based on the Turkish MK1919 shotgun gas system and shares a number of parts with it. Oleg Volk reviews it at All Outdoor

2, 5, and 10 round magazines are available for hunting and defense, and up to 18-round box magazines for 3-gun competition. With lower spring pressure than Saiga magazines, TAC12 mags are much easier to load. Recoil is similar to Vepr 12, which is to say, not worth noticing. The gun is optimized for lower recoil ammunition, from promotional birdshot up to regular loads, but magnum ammunition is not recommended due to increased wear on the gas piston.

Read the full review here.




Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Gales

    The Vepr shotguns been out since 7/17/14

  • USMC03Vet

    People that want a saiga/vepr certainly don’t want an AR mag fed shotgun.

    My reaction to this article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6gzOcTNKwE

  • Renegade

    Most anyone who was selling a Saiga ran out out of stock within a day, and those that saw what happened doubled or tripled their price…. then ran out of stock as people bought them anyway.

  • Cymond

    Dang it, my memory is failing me. There was a company that either made or modified Saigas with magwells. They were/are and American company, and offered parts in black, red, or blue (anodized?). They were heavily oriented towards 3-gun shooters. Any ideas?

    I’ll edit this comment if I can remember or figure it out.

    • John

      The only one I know of that sells anodized aluminum magwells is R&R Targets
      http://randrtargets.com/site/products-page/saiga-parts/magwell-w-release/

      • Cymond

        Yup! That’s it, you found it minutes before I did. Pity, I was hoping they made aftermarket receivers.
        With all of the Saiga aftermarket parts, I wonder how many parts are not made in the US? For example, Cadiz Gun Works was manufacturing their own receiver for a while, so they could make Saiga AOWs.

    • sianmink

      JT products makes that magwell, I think AGP and SGM also have a magwell that works.
      The main disadvantage of a magwell-modified Saiga vs a factory magwell saiga is you don’t get a last-round BHO on the modified guns, as that’s specific to the new model Saigas and respective magazines.

  • Lysenko

    You lost me at “lower recoil ammunition…magnum loads are not recommended”.

    • sianmink

      Eh. unless you’re shooting turkey or geese, magnum loads don’t give you much for the extra recoil. There’s certainly no place for them in competition, and at home-defense distances, low-recoil or standard 2 3/4″ buck will do just as well.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve (TFB Editor)

      I hate high recoil ultra-magnum shotgun loads. Hate them with a passion. I would rather just aim better. (referring to shooting on the wing, I don’t hunt turkey which I understand requires bigger loads)

      • 1leggeddog

        Yeah cuz these birds are fucking wearing kevlar! So many feathers, layered on top of each other..

        Gotta go for the head if you can.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Pretty much. Although I do appreciate the statement right up front telling me this is not a serious design with extensive military testing, but rather a range toy.

      At least they are semi-upfront about it.

    • Phillip Cooper

      They gained more of my interest with that. 12GA is plenty powerful in reduced loads for what I would want a mag-fed, semi-auto shotgun for- namely, home defense.

  • wicked_bear

    This ain’t no Saiga alternative. An AR is not an alternative to an AK in any form.

    • John

      AR-Style =/= AR Weapon System.

      It’s a tube fed autoloading shotgun converted to magazine fed, and dressed up as an AR.
      That being said, I’d rather them run with their own design than try to mimic another.

      http://cdn.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/raac-mka1919-12-gauge-ar-15-style-shotgun-charles-daly.jpg

      • dan citizen

        Agreed. I am a big fan of the winchester 1300 pump gun, carried one for a decade and when I needed it, the gun always delivered. When they wanted to fancy it up FN Herstal added what was needed (in their opinion). What they didn’t do was dress it up as an AR and call it a “pump action AR-shotgun-never-been-done-before tactical-special”

        http://cdn.learnaboutguns.com/fnshotgun.jpg

    • valorius

      No, an ar is better.

      • dan citizen

        This is not an AR either, it is a third world 1100 knock-off in an AR costume.

        • valorius

          The 1100 is an excellent design.

          • dan citizen

            The 1100 is a great action in my opinion. I just dislike that the MK1919 dresses it up and calls it “AR”

          • valorius

            I like the box mag feed. Sure wish benelli would introduce a box mag model of their m1

        • iksnilol

          It is made in America, regardless even if it was made in Turkey that comment is wrong (Turkey isn’t third world and is also one of the few countries to have paid their debts).

  • iksnilol

    Do they use double stack mags (with divider in the middle)? 18 rounds for a box mag sounds bigger than regular Saiga mags. Could we get a mag length/width comparison?

    • dan citizen

      An 18-20 round 12 gauge stick mag is about 2 feet long. I love the promag 12 round drum, it is the same length as a 5 found box mag.

      http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com//wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Saiga12openclass2.jpg

      • Sam Schifo

        WTF is that thing?

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          Very different!

        • Cymond

          It’s a Saiga with a magazine well modification, as well as a mid-barrel brake and a muzzle brake. Apparently, the brakes were designed by JP Rifles and R&R Targets makes them with permission/license.

      • noob

        somebody needs to have one of these but replace the double muzzle break with a salvo 12 silencer just for the hell of it.

        after all a man with a double muzzle break must be compensating for something… excessive recoil and muzzle rise, probably.

        • iksnilol

          That thing is awesome!

          I believe the secondary muzzle brake is to add more weight at the muzzle (since the second one won’t redirect any gasses).

      • Guest
  • TV-PressPass

    As somebody who owns and loves his Mka 1919: This is great stuff. Can’t wait to see more.

  • Sam Schifo

    Maybe I’m missing something here. What is so special about “tactical” detachable magazine fed semi-auto shotguns anyway? They seem too big to fill the role of a CQC weapon properly and also have a very short max effective range. Yeah, I understand that they look cool, but they’re still so expensive.

    • dan citizen

      It depends on your environment and needs. They have tremendous ammo versatility, can be compact depending on configuration. In urban environments they excel at providing effective knockdown without extreme over-penetration.

      Bottom line is you can deliver a ridiculous amount of lead on target, A 20 round drum full of 3″ mag can put just shy of 2 pounds of lead out the pipe in a short few seconds.

      • JumpIf NotZero

        Wow. Classic gun blog comment right there.

        • dan citizen

          That’s me and my saiga… keeping my city safe from discount soda, buckets, old plywood, and the occasional melon. No need to thank me, it’s a free service I provide.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Red necks and tacticool gun purchases love them because of the idea of having 12 rounds of buckshot that can be followed up with 12 more.

      In reality they lack the ammo change-over versatility of a traditional shotgun. The 20/12ga hulls are too soft to store loaded, they’re rimmed, they were never designed to run from a box mag – at all. It’s stupid awkward to carry those large mags. They’re far less reliable than rifles or traditional shotguns (see never being designed to run from box mags). Without a magwell they are next to retarded to try and load, esp on a closed blot. Oh, add in no bolt hold open except for rare models that take rare mags.

      Their only real use is with gamers looking to cheat at something that WAS supposed to be use to train for real world / practical shooting. No one with any amount of real training would ever select one for something other than a range toy.

      • n0truscotsman

        I own a Vepr 12, which has been proven to be very reliable with a wide range of defensive ammunition, although I recognize it too for what it is: a range toy, which is what I use it for. Neat shotgun. Everything that the Saiga should have been when it was first introduced. It looks especially sexy with my partizan sniper suit on the range. ;)

        But yeah, the magazines, besides being expensive and difficult to get (and they’ve been as rare as white unicorns in a snow storm since 2012), are very bulky and a PITA to carry a full battle load with. Lots of compromises with even a purpose built magazine pouch.

        The truth is that it doesn’t do anything my Mossberg 590 wont do better. You were absolutely right about magazines and shotgun shells. The concept doesn’t lend itself well to magazines unless you have full metallic casings theoretically (and i dont see much of them around LOL).

        • JumpIf NotZero

          Cool. And no doubt the Vepr stomps the hell out of the Saiga! I’ve never seen worse quality on a firearm than my Saiga. I removed the barrel, polished up the carrier, worked the gas system, it was TRUELY a disposable gun.

          I know the Veprs are better

          • n0truscotsman

            The only thing i have to stress on the Vepr is that the factory 8 rounders are the only mags that are GTG. the SGM and others failed me during my own training at home, getting double feeds or the follower getting stuck when dusty and wet. That seems to be universal among AK-type magazines made in America (with the possible exception of the new Palm AK30s).

            But yes. It will club any Saiga, custom or otherwise, like a baby seal…guaranteed. I would bet a months worth of income on it.

            I wanted to love the Saiga so bad, but couldn’t do it. It was a disappointment to me on so many levels, although, i guess if you just use it for hunting, it wouldn’t even be that bad (but better than a 870 or mossberg, again? not remotely). The saiga shotguns just aren’t suitable for serious use.

      • iksnilol

        They aren’t *that* useless.

        No mag tube under the barrel makes it it possible to cut the barrel short (shotgun powder is pretty much pistol powder) and to integrally suppress it. Though I would recommend using high brass (or entire brass hulls, IIRC Magtech makes some) to avoid them getting squished under spring pressure.

        Also, changing a mag and working the action is easier/faster than unloading the mag tube and loaidng it again (if you need to change ammo).

        • JumpIf NotZero

          Ironically, you do stumble on to one valid use for them, as an SBS they still allow for a lot of rounds. That’s fair.

          Now wether a short shotgun has been all but replaced by rifles for everything except breaching and less lethal (to which the semi-auto isn’t ideal anyhow), that’s a different discussion.

      • DiverEngrSL17K

        Just for the record, the VEPR-12 in OEM form comes with a magwell and a BHO device, among a lot of other useful features.

  • dan citizen

    “With lower spring pressure than Saiga magazines, TAC12 mags are much easier to load”

    Even my 10 round saiga mags are extremely easy to load… So let’s fix this quote,,,,

    “With lower spring pressure than Saiga magazines, TAC12 mags are much more prone to FTF when newm and it will go downhill quickly form there”

  • Tim U

    I was excited until I found out that I could just as easily buy a Benelli for the price. Maybe I am just used to lower price because I got my Saiga way back in the day for ~$400, then put no more than $200 into 922r parts.

    • JumpIf NotZero

      Got my Saiga for 450, ended with another 400 in parts. Hated it. Sold it at the height of the panic for $1650.

      My 20-some year old Benelli M1 is ten times the firearm.

  • Lance

    American initiative if jerks ban a foreign design gun: We make a better USA alternative. LOL

  • Secundius

    I’d rather have a C-More M26 12-Guage Shotgun/Carbine instead, it’s smaller and easier to transport.

  • http://suburbansdomain.blogspot.com Suburban

    The Century Arms/Catamount Fury shotguns are made in China. Have no fear.

    • Sixshot6

      Well you say that, but I know some people in Canada who love the Norinco M305 M14’s. Forged receivers compared to cast for the Springfield M1A’s. I don’t reckon its as bad as you think and as they say any port in a storm.

      • Secundius

        @ Sixshot6.

        I think the Springfield M1 and M1A receivers are Machined Milled, not cast.

        • Sixshot6

          Ok, has anyone got the specs for the Springfield M1A’s before we go any further? I know when the last did M1 Garand reissues, at least some of the receivers were left over Army production. Also are you not confusing the Fultons and LRB’s with Springfields? I don’t think it affects the guns, here in the uk. The only M14’s we have are built by LuxTec Defence of Luxemberg that are straight pulls. I don’t have one. I have something better, its a VZ58 MARS (Manually actuated release system). Basically you pull the trigger twice for a shot so its not considered a semi auto. Its b*ll*cks I know. But its what we live with and the gun is great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-oCbZ4njiE
          Might be of interest to people living in restricted states like NY, CA and CT. And before you ask. It can be fired faster than in the vid. I just can’t say how fast. Mine like the one in the vid uses ar mags with an adapter. Mainly GI mags fit (I have a HK systems mag that was made for SA80’s that is flawless), but Magpul E mags fit, though a small portion at the back needs cutting to not interfere with the last round bolt hold open. Any NY,CA and CT takers?

          • Secundius

            @ Sixshot6.

            Nope, your right its first cast, then machine milled.

          • Sixshot6

            Ok, this is gonna sound stupid. But the process of making the receivers at Springfield (or whoever makes them for them, its a funny old definition of manufacturing these days), the molten steel is poured into a cast, the cast metal hardens and then a machine mills the imperfections and to get it closer to the shape needed for production. Is that the correct description of what goes one? Also has anyone noticed that Springfield is now only lncluding a 10 rounder with the guns as standard? They still sell higher capacities to what your locale allows (20 rounders for some, 15 rounders for others). But they now make you pay for the privilege of exercising what you can legally do? That is some company.

          • Secundius

            @ Sixshot6.

            I guess what we call CNC-Billeted today, use to be call Machine Milled on a Metal Lathe by a Professional Gunsmithy 60-years ago.

          • Sixshot6

            Thats showing your age, hell I’m from a generation that calls Strippers ‘exotic dancers’. But you’re right its not fully taking a solid block of steel and miling, its doing milling for the last bit of work. Cheaper but not as strong as forging I guess?

          • Cymond

            They’re probably shipping with 10-rounders to simplify their shipping. This way, they don’t have separate shipments for certain states. Also, they may be overflowing in 10-round mags.

          • Sixshot6

            Overflowing, I remember hearing the russians were swimming in ak74’s as why they didn’t take up on the Ak12. Anyone for putting on some trunks and (for the ladies) bikinis and going for a swim in aks and M1A ten rounder? I can understand, but I have a rip off detector also that was humming like mad when I saw it. Do you think the got loads of 10 rounders for incase of events that never happened last year? Also who makes Springfield Armory’s Magazines? I’m sure as hell sure they don’t make them themselves.

          • Cymond

            Yeah, maybe they bought too many 10-round mags in preparation for what didn’t happen. But why would they stock up on something that was NOT threatened?
            .
            Maybe they’re overstocked with 10-rounders because everybody bought so many full-capacity magazines last year. Maybe the 10s are all they could get for a while. Maybe they did what I did with full magazines: placed many backorders and now have “too many” magazines. (you can never have too many magazines!)

          • Sixshot6

            Good point, to be fair they’d have been stocking up on 15’s and 20’s I guess. I can say on the second point, there is a gunshop near me and they could only get Ruger BX25 instead of BX10 mags for 10/22. The UK Distributor had no mags at all, due the rush in the US, so they had to resort to Brownells. And yes they have the permit to get mags above 10 rounds out of the US before you ask. Things were that bad they had other UK dealers calling to buy the mags off them and they said ok, but at full Retail price, the same as the rest of our customers pay. Other mags werent so badly affected (AK mags and even AR mags came from Europe and Magpul E mags, that were export oriented anyway were all available). Speaking of which Cymond, you said you live in a restricted State, from what I can gather, its not NY, its likely CA? I say that based on your reference to CA gun owners. Am I correct if I may ask? Let me guess, you have AR’s in both featureless and bullet button and your featureless build is a monsterman grip and you’re old enough to own some Pre-ban mags?

          • Cymond

            Your guess is close! I have a featureless AR-15 and a rimfire AR-15 (the law specifies “semiautomatic centerfire” so rimfire rifles are exempt). I have enough parts to build a bullet-buttoned pistol, but I haven’t figured out all the details of building pistols in CA.
            .
            However, I do not have the Monsterman grip, I have the Hammerhead, which sucks. I’ve held the FRS-15 and it is far superior, but I’m leaving CA in 1 month. Unfortunately, I don’t have any pre-ban magazines or any conceivable explanation to have any. I only moved to California 3 years ago. I’ve been buying full-capacity magazines online and shipping them to my parents’ house on the east coast. I feel really sorry for gun owners in NY, they have it even worse than we do. The NY “SAFE” act made sure to close the “loopholes” in CA’s laws. I also think CA’s handgun roster is far more onerous than the “assault weapon” law.

          • Secundius

            @ Cymond.

            What it comes to is, how Proficient are you with a 3-Dimensional Metal Lathe. Or, how good are your computer skills to use a CNC-Machine. And do you have access too either.

          • Cymond

            Are you referring to building a pistol? The mechanics aren’t a problem, it’s the legality. I read somewhere that any pistol built in CA must be submitted for safety testing, except for single-shot pistols. I would research it more but I’ll be out of CA in just 35 days.
            .
            As for my tool-skills, sadly I don’t have any experience with anything like that. What I did have was the foresight to buy an off-roster AR-15 receiver before moving to CA, although at the time I originally had no interest in AR pistols.

          • Sixshot6

            I think you’d have been good until 2015 when the SSE exemption is removed, you could have used a single shot sled, waited 10 days or whatever Calguns.net has on their guide, but since you’re leaving in 35 days might as well wait. Good things come to those that wait. Hell with my VZ58 mars I was waiting from March until the middle of July. Also you do know that if you get the overall length over 26 inches (a barrel length of 12.5 and a the rest of the rifle making up the rest of the length will keep you legal), you’ll have an ‘Other’. So you can have a vertical grip instead of just nothing or an angled foregrip. Add a Sig SB15 brace and you’ve got an SBR/AOW you didnt have to pay a stamp for. starve the ATF of $200, they won’t miss it. Is that what you might do?

          • Cymond

            Yeah, there’s a makeshift single-shot sled and bullet button in my “pistol” lower right now, just to be safe. I’ll put a SB-15 on my incomplete AR pistol. It would be cool to put SB-15s on other guns, like a Ruger Charger pistol.

            The 26-inch “other” concept became widespread knowledge thanks to Franklin Armory. My Umbrella Corp lower was purchased in California and put through the DROS system as a “long gun” since it couldn’t go through as a “handgun” (damn roster). I was so excited to get it together that I threw it together with whatever parts I had, and no hand guard at first. It was originally a weird, hybrid nightmare thing with a barrel over 16″ and no buttstock, so it qualified as a “long gun” in CA and a “handgun” federally. I should be able to convert it back into a “pistol” or “other” legally, but I’m a bit nervous that the CA DROS may have tainted the receiver as a “rifle” regardless of how I originally purchased it. I haven’t found any documents specifically regarding building a pistol that was DROSed as a “long gun”. I really should seek clarification from the ATF about it. I also really just want a real SBR, though, and the Umbrella is my “fancy” lower.

            FWIW, the ATF doesn’t keep that $200 tax, it goes to the IRS. If the ATF kept it, then maybe they’d have some incentive to decrease wait times and hire more NFA application examiners. As it is, administering the NFA registry is a big burden for them, while enforcing it is one of their main reasons for existence.

          • Sixshot6

            Sounds like a visit to a lawyer and some calls to the ATF on the matter may be money well spent. Franklin Armory also came up the 17wsm AR I remember. Great idea 223 power in a rimfire and helps people in Ban states have a detachable mag 223 power semi auto. Connecticut gun owners will be especially happy. You’re correct on your idea about incentive. I’ll give you a none gun example. The roads in parts of the UK these days are dreadful yet we pay some much road tax, however it all goes in one pot and my uncle who works a road crew said we were all lucky if 20% got spent on the roads. If the taxes in question went to the state body that it relates, you would see an improvement. I know the history and how the ATF pretty much came about purely and simply to enforce the NFA. Well if you did build an other, I believe a 12.5 inch barrel and a rifle buffer tube should give you the required length. Also weird thing about the 50 beowulf magazines. Dark storm industries in New York has some for sale, so two things are happening, either they are legal and any New york or anybody could buy them and ‘misuse’ them as I stated or they are selling illegal mags, which side would you err on if you were in that situation? I know you mention the CA situation, but the New york situation has the potential to make that worse. Also some Uk police forces are better than others at granting licenses and variations (i’ll tell you what that is all about if you want). Mine is ok, they turned my last variation around (the one for the VZ58), in less than a week, they were worse with the one before, it was months. But I’ve know worse, before all the Scottish police forces were amalgamated (they could’nt even agree on buying the same sweatshirt, imagine that scene in the life of Brian with the Judean people’s Front).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

            That was the Scottish police force. Strathclyde as one gun living under them told was 5 months with his last one. So things can be worse much worse. We’ve gone through the great tragedy and now we’re on the great farce.

          • Cymond

            You seem like a pretty cool fellow, and extremely knowledgeable for someone who doesn’t live here.
            .
            If it comes down to spending money on the DROS-pistol mystery, I may leave it to someone else. I’m seeing new AR lowers on sale for just $50 + S&H, taxes, & dealer’s fee so a new lower is a more logical choice than retaining a lawyer. My situation (purchased a lower in CA, build a pistol in another state) is wildly specific. Or maybe I’ll pay Gene Hoffman on Calguns to write a letter to ATF, just for the good of the community. Either way, I’ll be happy to have an official SBR on my ‘fancy’ lower.
            .
            I think 26.5″ overall can be achieved with a carbine-length buffer tube and a 11.5″ barrel. Apparently, a 10.5″ barrel would work, but only if the flash-hider isn’t removed or swapped. The special extended tubes for the SB-15 also add some length so a 10″ could be used safely. Regardless, reading about ballistics indicates that it would be unwise to go below a 10″ barrel. I suspect the 7″ barrels are just noisy toys.
            .
            I don’t know what I would do in the NY situation, especially since the ‘SAFE’ act is relatively new. I expect the mags are legal to buy, sell, and possess. “Misusing” them in NY is a real risk. The ‘SAFE’ act originally banned magazines over 7-rounds, but that was changed when they realized that there’s no such thing as a 7-round magazine for most guns. Now New Yorkers can have 10-round magazines, but they can only be loaded with 7 rounds. And yes, people have been arrested & convicted for having an 8th round loaded. It is the very definition of a useless law. ‘Misusing’ them might or might not be safe in NJ & CA, but again, I would feel safer if I had a Beowulf upper. I don’t know NJ’s laws well, but I think they ban possession of full-capacity magazines (CA’s ban works differently). A NJ prosecutor might argue that a Beowulf magazine loaded with 30 rounds of 223 is a de-facto full-capacity magazine. Of course, if the NJ DOJ is anything like CA, they will never give anyone a straight answer about guns.
            .
            If I were staying in a restrictive jurisdiction long-term, I would be more inclined to push the limit. Before we knew about this move, I briefly considered breaking a law to take advantage of a very small loophole. There is no ban on magazine possession in California, only on manufacturing, importing, and selling magazines. The statute of limitations is, I believe, 3 years. I wasn’t sure how long we would be here (sometimes it seemed like forever). It would be possible to smuggle some magazines in from another state and just hide them until after the statute of limitations. I knew it would be stupid and I never did it.
            .
            Loved that clip, and definitely think it applies to a LOT of organizations, even charities & churches. I chuckled for several minutes on that one.
            .
            If I may ask, why did you opt for a VZ58 pistol instead of a rifle with a >12″ barrel?
            .
            And I forgot to add this pic earlier of the horrid hybrid that is a CA “long gun” and a federal “handgun”.

          • Sixshot6

            You’re a bit behind the curve, a Judge struck down the 7 rounds in a 10 round as arbitary and before that it was ok to use 10 rounds when on the range, hunting and in your dwelling (i.e. where you live). And yes alot of big organisations end up being more about helping them than you. There must have been some miscommunication about my VZ58, its a rifle with a 18.5 inch barrel, though 16 inches is offered by the importer. They will do 12 inches with a 9mm version that is coming later in the year. I can hear you on pushing things, that what the MARS and the Lever release rifles in the uk are, its pushing things to the legal limit to enjoy things a bit more. I can see from the pic why you are looking forward to moving out.
            If I’d have been less cowardly and actually met a Californian girl and her friends who were studying in the uk at the time, who knows one of her New york was interested in me, so maybe in another life I’d have moved to New York state, bought some pre-ban mags and been screwed so that plays on my mind a bit, the being screwed over part.
            Its a good thing you never got to try these ‘loopholes’ either. But I’m a bit like you that I’m planning for less restrictive places to live for firearm ownership, even only slightly less so. But its other things too. You say your folks live on an east coast state that allows mags above 10 rounds. Which one? As discounting the 4 stooges (NY,NJ,CT and MA), most can still let you have new standard cap mags.

          • Sixshot6

            On another note, anyone you know in California that is interested, someone on the NY firearms forum has given a heads up about the Ares SCR shipping this week.

          • Sixshot6

            Also did one of my earlier comments not appear? Any if it didnt, you’re behind the curve on new york, a judge there struck down the only using 7 in a 10 round mag, so everyone is good to go there with 10s and my VZ58, is a rifle with an 18.5 inch barrel, the only 12 inch the guy will be making is 9mm version later in the year. I’ll have a pic up when my new stock comes then its nearly complete, then the importer is making some new internal match parts that I have installed (he’s doing the work free of charge due to me being an early adopter).

          • Secundius

            @ Cymond.

            Their places like Great Guns of Anchorage, Alaska and Red Jackets of New Orleans, Louisiana. That make certified parts for a particular state regulatory concerns. A place you might try as a reference point to help you out is Mythbusters, just outside San Francisco, CA. They might or (most likely) can point you in the right direction and even give the name’s of the manufacturers in California.

          • Secundius

            @ Cymond.

            They took my posting to off the website. Try Mythbusters just outside San Francisco, CA. They can point you in the right direction and probably even give State Certified Company that either Produce Them or Have Them in stock.

          • Sixshot6

            I heard that the FRS-15 was the best, the only complaint I heard was sometimes needing an ambi safety for some people with small bands. I wish you well in moving out of CA, I hope you have a good time, in your new state. I hear you on New York gun owners, the definition of a detachable mag seemed to be written to make the bullet button illegal, hell they have trouble seeing if the MR2 or ARmaglock is legal for there. i hear you on the roster too, that is bad also. The assault weapons law is liveable to an extent but the handgun roster is something else. So are you going to keep your featureless ar and mod it for your new state or sell that and any legal handguns you have so that someone in CA can have a bit of freedom from the Roster? Or would you lose money and it be easier to keep your stuff and modify it rather than sell to get new stuff?

          • Cymond

            I’ll definitely modify the rifles, it’s so easy. The featureless rifle is a bit sentimental. If you’re much of a videogamer, you’ll recognize the name and logo. It’s not my first AR lower but it was the first I completed, and I chose my upper carefully. It’s not just a rifle, it’s “my” rifle. My wife helped me buy it during the buying frenzy of early 2013. She set up a computer alert for every time they came in-stock, and we rushed to the computer whenever it went off. We eventually got lucky. I’ll probably SBR it after I leave. The upper will move to a new lower, and I’ll install a free floating hand guard eventually.
            .
            I object to CA’s handgun registration so the majority of my handguns are pre-CA and still in another state. I only have 2 registered. One is a junk Cobra derringer that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The safety is broken (not that it worked in the first place, I had to use a hammer to move the safety) and the half-cokc doesn’t work right, either. I might cut it up and chuck it into a river. The other is a common, plain Glock 34 that I honestly haven’t decided about yet. I don’t really like Glocks, and have been thinking about selling it and buying something else after the move. OTOH, it’s the only pistol I have access to, so I’d like it to accompany me on the cross-country road trip. Also, it’s nice to have a ‘beater’ pistol that I don’t care about. Then again, I’d really like a double-action pistol, maybe a FNX-9 or LH9.
            .
            I had considered the 50 Beowulf magazines but I feel it’s a little close to the line. I’m not aware of anything official about loading small-caliber rounds into a large-caliber magazine, just a lot of discussion on Calguns. It should be legal but this is CA, land of the crazies. Even if legal, it still might take a expensive court-case to prove it. I think that it would be wise to justify possessing a Beowulf magazine by also having a Beowulf upper, which is a lot to spend just to have 30 rounds. Also, I decided last year to stop wasting money on CA-compliant stuff (limited mags, bullet button, etc). Our mentality has always been that living in California would be temporary, it’s the reason why we furnished our home with cheap furniture.
            .
            pics of my rifle while I was out of CA for 2 weeks (no compliance parts).

          • Sixshot6

            To be fair you’re right, I think the court was mainly about 9mm rounds in a 40 smith mag to be fair, but in good old english common law there is such as thing as precedence but with CA being a state that among other things trys to ban E cigarettes and get people to have people wear a seat belt on Quad bikes, along with my country I believe they may have proved themselves a lost cause to common sense. There are parts of the British isles where gun ownership is better than the mainland, Northern Ireland, the isle of man and the channel Islands still have pistols and Jersey still has centrefire semi autos, I have family in the Isle of man so will move there in future. I’ll post pics when I get some. Say if I can figure it out, I’ll get pics of my VZ58 after I’ve put the new FAB stock I’ve bought on it. You’re Resident evil fan too. Hey Good old Barry Burton was a gunowners friend and he had his Colt Anaconda (I mean Silver Serpent, the sound you hear in the background is Colt’s lawyers sharpening their pencils).

          • Sixshot6

            Also did you ever not think to try the 10 round 50 beowulf magazine load it with 30 223s? Didnt CA have a court case about mags that could load more of a smaller capacity if the mag wasn’t modified and was labelled for a larger cal? Or did that just apply to using 9mm in 40 s&w/357 sig mags?

          • Cymond

            That MARS trigger is pretty cool, I hadn’t seen that before. I think the best overall option for Californians is the “featureless” build that simply eliminates the pistol grip, adjustable stock, and flash suppressor. However, for people who want those features, the MARS system looks like an interesting alternative to the “bullet button”. However, the BB only costs $20.

          • Sixshot6

            $20, I’m sure I’ve seen some american online stores selling them for $15, unless thats $5 shipping included. to be pay for for mine in a state similar to in that video (though minus the dust cover with rail, I have a side mount for my scope). excluding my scope and including, a fab defense rail for-end, pistol grip, a no name AR collapsing, the side mount that is a great thing, the original mags for if I wanted it back to using the standard mags I paid £2126, so $3576.38 at the current exchange rate. I guess if more were racked up for the Ban states price could come down, but you’re right. Featureless builds, especially with the coming of the FRS 15 stock are more cost effective (except in Connecticut, but they are still allowed pre sept 13 rifles with all the features and the definition of an action they have excludes the FRS 15, so the Ares SCR will have to be the one for them I guess and some creations I’ve seen Freedom Shoppe come up with). That and the fixed mag variants such as the bullet button, maglock and even kept in with the release removed to use with stripper clips are more effective cost and otherwise. I believe for those reasons the Troy Industries PAR rifle will be gone in a few years (same fate as the Century arms PAR AK rifles). I saw some Aussies were interested in the PAR Troy, but their authorities said it failed a bullshit test on military look alike appearance so that market is out for them. How many years do you give the PAR before it becomes an object of curiosity to say, look what happened here in 2014?

          • Sixshot6

            Also for CT I meant pre sept 13 1994 rifles, I screwed up and deleted the 1994 by mistake, I guess CT are the reason why semi auto rifles from that period are going for premiums now.

          • Sixshot6

            It is a good trigger two, like a lee enfield two stage trigger.

      • http://suburbansdomain.blogspot.com Suburban

        I was saying the Saigas may be banned under sanction, but the Furies (Furys?) aren’t.

        • Sixshot6

          I know, that was the reason for my any port in the storm, in this case one caused by sanctions. Also Since Black Ace tactical have been able to convert (they can get mossberg pumps at wholesale prices) Mossbergs and Remingtons with a new receiver to use Saiga mags and work well, why not ask them if they can do the same for the mossberg semis? I’m sure a SPX with a detachable mag would be ace.

  • Xaun Loc

    Lots of online reviews for this “Firebird Precision TAC12A1″ but I don’t see anyone actually selling them and the Firebird Precision website itself doesn’t come up,

  • n0truscotsman

    Anybody take them through a training course? do they work?

    • JumpIf NotZero

      I took defensive shotgun awhile back. A guy showed up with (I kid you not) 12 round drum mags in custom pouches on his belt and a “trick” Saiga.

      He lasted about 45 minutes with that setup. Transitioned to a bone stock 870 and didn’t go back. He was adamant on selling the Saiga after the class. He realized for how shotguns are supposed to be run they’re almost worthless.

      But if you want to blast at the range, they’re great.

      • n0truscotsman

        Thats the funny thing about training courses (or maybe why they’re so fucking important); you find out what really works and what doesn’t, no matter how good a idea or loadout sounds theoretically.
        Gear is a lot like parts to a well assembled gun. There is a certain synergy and mutual benefit between different components. Some pieces of excellent gear dont go well together. Some stuff goes together magnificently. Like building a AR. and its a pain in the ass to find out, but well worth the effort.

        • Cymond

          Good to hear! I need to seek out some good training when I move to a gun-friendly state (soon). Looking at the comments from you and Jump, I’m reminded of a debate I had last year. ‘Manny Fal’ was claiming that inexperienced people know what works best for inexperienced people.

  • Sixshot6

    This is going to so very stupid and obvious but… http://www.jgsales.com/catamount-fury-ii-saiga-pattern-semi-auto-shotgun,-12ga,-ak-thumbhole-style,-new.-p-60316.html. Backordered for obvious reasons, but there is the Saiga alternative, the Ironic Catamount Fury 2, while Chinese is exempt from the executive order of 1995 due to it mainly mentioning pistols, rifles and the ammo for such. These have them in stock http://www.centerfiresystems.com/FURY.aspx. They don’t take Saiga makes, but they have fives and tens. Might have to hunt for them, but good to go and cheaper than what Saigas and Veprs are. Anyone interested?

  • eddie d.

    The Akdal (MKA1919 to be exact, since Akdal is the name of a line of firearms from Turkish mfr. Ucyildiz Arms Ltd., they also offer pistols) is a promising shotgun,
    but it has an often overlooked serious design flaw/drawback that prevents it from being a serious alternative for tactical shotguns such as the Mossberg 930 or the FN SLP,
    or maybe the direct counterparts, the detachable magazine fed VEPR or the Saiga 12.
    Namely: disassembly.
    The operator has to take the buttpad off and use a hex key extension to take the receivers apart.
    This is obviously not the best solution for “field” strip.

    The basically full rebuild of Firebird Prec. probably mitigates the disassembly problem with the AR style takedown pins, but there’s no available detailed info on disassembly yet, so I still have my doubts about its practicality.
    The factory animaton shows its construction to be similar to the G36’s.
    I’ve been following their work on the MKA for sime time now, also the other company that makes Akdal parts, Tooth&Nail Armory.

    There are only three things I miss from the TAC12:

    – a bit longer, user configurable handguard without the integrated (?) rails, either regular screw-in rail sections or MLOK standard (additional weight saving).
    Currently there’s not enough place in front of the charging handle to put a light on the gun. This is not much of a problem in 3G though, more of a tactical concern.
    A short rail section in the front would be good.
    To be honest, IMO the Tooth&Nail Armory handguard is a better design in this respect.
    Longer, oval construction, skeletonized, it’s user configurable and leaves some space in front of the charging handle.

    – A downward facing QD slot in the back of the lower.
    The gun is neither that long nor too heavy – for average to tall shooters a strong single point sling would be a reasonable option.

    – This is more of a general platform issue, but a quality, simple 8 rd. polymer mag would be a welcome weight saving option considering the bulk of a shotgun magazine.
    The factory 5 rd. steel mag weighs 300g (ca. 10.6oz.).
    I wasn’t able to find weights on the Saiga or VEPR 12 mags, but a 7.62 Bulgarian waffle mag weighs ca. 9.5oz. even though it’s considerably longer than the Akdal mag.
    An 8 rd. plastic mag would still fit relatively comfortably on a vest and provide reasonable firepower- probably that’s also the conclusion the Russian came to, since factory Saiga 12 mags are either 5 or 8rd. .

    A good, in-depth seven part article on the MKA:
    http://www.gunsumerreports.com/review_akdal_mka_1919_p1.php

  • Leo

    I own both and Saiga is much simpler rifle. Cleaning takes 5 times less time, there is not reason to ban this weapon. They should start with companies making planes and rockets not rifles for americans.

  • 1leggeddog

    It’s big and beefy thats for sure.

    In the article, in the hands of that woman, it looks downright HUGE!