Ruger Sues Armscor & RIA Over Ruger 10/22 Clone

Armscor M22

Armscor M22

Armscor, a gun manufacturer in the Philippines, have been manufacturing Ruger 10/22 clones for a while now, as have many other companies in the USA and around the world. Most, if not all, US clone makers are targeting the high-end semi-custom/custom market, while the Armscor M22 targets the same market as the Ruger 10/22 but at a much lower price. Rock Island Armory (RIA) began importing the Armscor M22 sometime last year and the guns have been retailing for around $160. The Ruger 10/22 Carbine with wood stock has a MSRP of $279.

This all came to a stop earlier this month when Ruger filed a lawsuit against Armscor and RIA. I have been told that RIA sent a letter to dealers asking them to stop selling the M22 and to return them. We have not been able to obtain a copy of that letter, yet (If your store has received one, please email me a copy).

The case information is below …

Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. v. Armscor Precision International, Inc. et al
Court:New Hampshire District Court

Defendant: Arms Corporation of the Philippines, Armscor Precision International, Inc. and Rock Island Armory Exports, Inc.
Plaintiff: Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.
Case Number: 1:2014cv00194
Filed: May 2, 2014
Office: Concord Office
Nature of Suit: Trademark
Cause of Action: 15:1125 Trademark Infringement (Lanham Act)
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff

This lawsuit was bound to happen, but the outcome will have interesting implications. Armscor and RIA are sure to argue that clones have been sold for many years and Ruger never bothered to protect their trademark. If they win it could open the floodgates for cheap imported Ruger 10/22 clones. If Ruger wins, they may set their sights on domestic manufacturers such as Kahr (Magnum Research) and Volquartsen Custom.

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • c

    didn’t the patent for the 10/22 expire?

    • Giolli Joker

      So I had read as well.
      I guess (and the Nature of Suit seems to confirm it) that we’re not talking about patent violation but rather about trademark infringement as Ruger wants to protect the characteristic visual features of its gun from almost identical copies as this Armscor gun.
      If they ‘ll succeed or not will likely depend on previous actions carried out by Ruger to secure such trademark, anyway I don’t think that there could be any effects on Magnum research or Volquartsen.

      • jcitizen

        Copyright – to be accurate – at least that is always what I understood.

    • jimmarch

      There’s a difference between “patent” and “trademark”.

      • El Duderino

        I’m not a lawyer…but if they are not calling it a “Ruger” or “10/22″ how are they infringing on the trademark? Lots of companies make Peacemaker or 1911 clones, but obviously they cannot put “Colt” on the side of the gun…for example.

        • gunslinger

          the difference in the 1911 is that Colt/JMB didn’t trademark the look of the 1911, nor did they defend it once the patent was up. essentially, they let it go into the public domain. same with AR. the AR15 platform “look” wasn’t trademarked, so people can copy it.

          glock i think did the same thing (aren’t glocks patents up?) but they claim the “look” is trademarked by them?

          • El Duderino

            Must be just the exterior look, because if you tear apart 90% of the plastic autos they look just like a Glock inside.

          • javierjuanmanuel

            You can patent an action, not general looks or packaging etc. Can you imagine me patenting a style of hat. I own snap backs or fitted caps. I thought of short shorts, or board shorts for surfing. Patents are very very specific, have to be unique, and do something, solve a problem, or be a process.

          • jcitizen

            I remember a big fight over the “Princess phones” back in the old days. The argument was a copyright extended to design as for the artistic look of the product. They won hands down, and in every court case since, copyright covers the look to a tee!

          • jimmarch

            I think Colt just let the whole trademark thing mostly slide on all the huge number of clones of the SAA, 1911 and others. BUT Colt did go after American Western Arms (importing some Italian SAs) a few years back so it’s like they tried to plug the hole again?

          • patrickiv

            Glock trademarked the rectangle.

          • Fred Johnson

            LOL!

          • iksnilol

            They also tried to sue some brick-makers because of that. Don’t know what happened afterwards.

          • javierjuanmanuel

            When the patent is up, there is nothing to defend. It becomes public domain. They call it trade dress. Thats rather sketchy stuff.

        • AK™

          If they put Colt on the side,they would have to increase the price by a couple of zeros on the end,while adding no more quality features than other makers.

    • Steve (TFB Editor)

      The Ruger 10/22 is 50 years old this year, so the patent expired about 30 years ago. Trademarks don’t expire.

      • javierjuanmanuel

        I think this is trade dress. The trader mark is the ruger logo, colors etc.

        If nothing else, RIA should sell barreled actions, their would be nothing they could do about that.

    • Michel_T

      And there are a plethora of other companies making 10/22 receivers…

      • jcitizen

        And to think Harley Davidson is trying to copyright the sound of their bikes!

        • iksnilol

          Seriously? Where did you find out about this?

          Never really liked loud motorcycles but it becomes silly to copyright the sound.

        • Bob Maroldy

          Yes, this is true. Harley V-twin engines do not have pistons on the opposite sides of the crankshaft as most twins do. Rather they are a few degrees apart so you get a boom-boom,then a silence, then another boom, boom, etc. as opposed to other opposed piston engines that go boom-boom-boom-boom, etc. with evenly spaced firing. I don’t know what ever happened to that lawsuit but they did actually try to patent the sound.

  • jimmarch

    Wait…what are they going to target in the Kahr/Magnum Research product line? The BFR? It’s somewhat Ruger-esque but no moreso than the Ruger SAs are “Colt-ish” (or the Bearcat and Old Army are “Remingtonoids”).

  • ATman

    I was a thousand percent sure that magnum research was producing under license and is/ was the only manufacturer outside Ruger to be doing so I heard this from a magnum research fan who has a couple of their decked out .22s but again I could be wrong.

    • jimmarch

      It’s certainly possible. Per this source:

      http://www.singleactions.com/MagnumResearchBFRs.pdf

      …the grip frames for the BFRs are bought off of Ruger directly and from my examinations I can state for a certainty that the hammers are too. I have heard that the frames are cast by Ruger for BFR under contract so…yeah, those MR rifle recievers could be actual Ruger parts.

      • ATman

        What I had heard was regarding an actual license to manufacture the problem with this legal dispute is this could get really tricky for importing 10/22 in the land of plenty of .22 ammo here in Canada. As the import ban happy border people usually poo poo clones or replicas and try and use that as an excuse to stop there movement into the Canadian market.

        Also I see lots of the arms core product on the used market up north due to there apparent incompatibility/poor fit with stock/upgrade parts.

  • Geoff a well known Skeptic

    There is new case law on “look and feel” trademarks. Glock just won at least one. Back in the ’60s “Squires Bingham” a precursor to Armscor had a hard to find .22 rifle which was very similar to the Ruger Standard pistol action. It also had a long magazine that worked. Trademark law, like software patent law has become a real money maker for the big law monsters. Geoff Who wonders how many lawyers have their hands in the till on this one.

    • Cynic

      Plus of course rugger suing in an American court are looking longingly towards the same blatant national bias that came up during the last apple vs Samsung case. The eu courts basically held the oposition view to the us courts and the yank courts upheld the yank company complaints.

      To be honest losing the 1022 and other low hanging fruit may force rugger to actually innovate. Rather than copy existing designs. Ie the ar the 1911 and maybe actually develop new products the market want and reevaluate parts of their line.

  • Adam James Pugh

    I would bet that this trademark suit has been brought because the product that Armscor manufactures and imported/sold by RIA, significantly undercuts Ruger at retail. I would be highly skeptical that Ruger will proceed to pursue the manufacturers of high-end 10/22 clones off the back of this case.

    • raz-0

      You are likely right, but failure to protect your mark from dilution in the past affects your ability to to successfully mount a defense now. Ruger can really only go two ways. Claim that the barrel band is the heart of their 10/22 trademark, as the other makers, to the best of my recollection, haven’t used that, or simply be looking to drag it out forever and make it too expensive for armscor to continue.

      I think they’ll fail. Worst case, armscor starts selling a match version of it with a different name that looks more like the VQ and MR versions, and still charges less than ruger does for the base model. Which would be even worse for ruger.

  • Stupid Redneck

    This is funny coming from a company that ripped off the Kel-tec P38T, and the PF9.
    I know they didn’t have a patent or trademark so I guess it’s ok for Ruger to make millions on Kel-tec’s designs..

    • echelon

      This is exactly what I was thinking.

    • iksnilol

      Hypocrisy, who doesn’t love it.

      • Hopsaregood

        If I remember correctly Bill Ruger was a suck butt of Bill Clinton and helped with the 1994 anti second amendment gun act.

        • pikemaster1

          you don’t remember correctly,that was Smith & Wesson NOT Ruger

          • Hopsaregood

            Main article: Federal Assault Weapons Ban

            William B. Ruger of Ruger firearms is often credited with providing the impetus for such a ban. Ruger suggested that rather than ban firearms, that Congress should outlaw magazines holding more than 15 rounds.[10] On March 30, 1989, Bill Ruger sent a letter to every member of the US Congress stating:

            “The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining ‘assault rifle’ and ‘semi-automatic rifles’ is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives.”

            William B. Ruger

          • jcitizen

            Precisely why I never bought Ruger’s until he died!

          • LongColt

            Well, Willliam was also big on specifically hunting & sporting guns, which is why all the new more tactical stuff didn’t come out until after he died. For the particular style he favored, capacity wasn’t a necessity and, therefore, also didn’t effect Ruger much at the time.

          • Geodkyt

            Bill Ruger pushed for a mag limit ban. . . only he wanted the limit set at 15 rounds, so Glock couldn’t compete with his P85 series pistols.

          • iksnilol

            Yes he does, Bill Ruger did say (paraphrased somewhat): “No honest man needs more than ten rounds in any gun”.

          • John Willis

            no ruger was complacent on the clinton mag ban and wasnt in “favour ” of civilians having hi cap magazines,,sell out

    • patrickiv

      There’s a big difference between patent infringement and trademark infringement. A patent covers the working parts and expires after 20 years, so any company can make a .22 rifle with the same internals as a 10/22. A trademark covers the appearance and doesn’t expire, so only Ruger can make a .22 rifle that looks exactly like their 10/22. Volquartsen rifles look very different from Ruger rifles and that’s why they can still make them.

      • McThag

        The hypocrisy still applies since the 10/22 was deliberately made to look like an M1 Carbine. Bill Ruger even said so.

        • jamieb

          Trademark is not what ptrickiv said, but the first part you are correct about the patent.

        • Ceapea

          And what about the MKI, II and III looking just like the Luger pistol?
          Copy!

          • CorrectionErection

            Actually the MK series by Ruger look like more like nambu type 14′s they even have nearly the same bolt/slide.

          • The Brigadier

            Or the S&W’s .44 Automag that looks like a Luger on steroids.

        • Brandon Whosville

          And the lc9 wasn’t a knock off of what? Lol ruger sucks.

      • jcitizen

        Aren’t you talking about copyright? I’ve always understood those are the documents that support the way a product “looks”. Copyrights last forever, whereas patents are only for 18 or so years, or whatever congress decides to extend them to.

    • jamieb

      No its not funny. Its not an exact copy, not even close. Sure they copied ideas like size, but even that was not a new idea. Its no different then someone else making a car that is mid engine like a nsx or rear engine like a 911, shares not single part with it, and call it a copy. At most you could say inspired by.

      Not a single part can be swapped.

      • Michel_T

        Don’t know what’s the attraction to the Armscor 10/22 lookalike (other than the saving of a few $) if you can’t swap parts?

        To me (at least) the fun of the 10/22 is to play LEGO with the various parts…

        • anonymous

          If it’s truly a clone, I would expect the parts, including the aftermarket stuff, to be interchangeable.

          I do see a potential problem installing some aftermarket stuff on this rifle. The different pattern of open sights, particularly the manner in which the front sight is attached, means a lot of aftermarket iron sights (Tech-Sights, or the Lyman globe type front that some people like to pair up with a Williams or Lyman peep rear, for example) won’t go on this gun, at least without removing that front sight ramp and installing a Ruger dovetailed front sight mount.

          But other than that–well, I should anticipate, for example, no problem at all other than the usual parts fitting that is required to install a heavy target barrel, or a drop-in match trigger group, or aftermarket stock of your preference.

  • ARL

    If Ruger has a valid case against Armscor for the 10/22, then Keltec has a valid case against Ruger for copying the P3AT with the LCP.

    • El Duderino

      Hear hear! Although I don’t think it’s quite as close with the PF9 and LC9 as some would suggest.

      • jamieb

        Its binary. It either is or its not. There is no gradation.

        • iksnilol

          Like my teacher used to say; “Either you are pregnant or not, there is nothing inbetween”.

    • jamieb

      uhh no. It is not an exact copy. Christ, this is not hard. This is not a place for fan boism, this is pretty simple stuff.

  • strongarm

    I always wonder why Remington does not sue Benelli. M4 is nearly a carbon copy of VersaMax.

    • allannon

      Are they owned by the same company?

      • J.T.

        No

        • strongarm

          Hımm. It seems everybody are aware of similarıty, but the both of companies.

          • javierjuanmanuel

            I do not know he details but you can pay a licensing agreement and both companies can be made happy. Is this possible ?

          • strongarm

            Highly. But, what about informing the users.

    • J.T.

      They probably don’t sue because the M4 had been around for over 10 years before the VersaMax was made.

    • floppyscience

      Yeah, and I wonder why Tanfoglio doesn’t sue CZ. The CZ 75 is nearly a carbon copy of the Tanfoglio TZ 75.

  • Gary from Michigan

    Remember that Ruger shut down AMT from making both the Lightening rifle 10/22 clone and pistol MkII clone back in the 80s or 90s. I have always been surprised that they haven’t gone after the other companies that have been ripping them off. I do believe that the 10/22 is an iconic design and thus is eligible for trademark infringement protection.

    • Geodkyt

      Except the “iconic design” of the 10/22 is actually that of the Winchester developed M1 Carbine, according to the late Bill Ruger himself.

      He SPECIFICALLY copied the look of the M1 Carbine as much as practical, to appeal to WWII vets.

      • dan citizen

        he did indeed copy M1 carbine style points, but mechanically it is not similar.

        • Cymond

          Yes, but any patents on the mechanics would have expired 30 years ago. Everyone seems to think they’re suin based on the appearance (trade dress), like the Glock & HK lawsuits against rimfire clones (which were mechanically completely different).

        • javierjuanmanuel

          but this is a trade dress issue. The mechanical part is public domain now, anyone can make it.

        • Bob Maroldy

          Correct. There is a BIG diference between a blowback bolt and a rotary bolt action.

    • javierjuanmanuel

      Not ripping them off. Look at where bill got the idea for the mk1. It was from a japanese bring back.

      It is just the way it is, in cars, medicine, pharma, guns, tech what ever, you have X amount of time to make back all your money, and make enough to innovate the next product, and or build up your name so people will want your gadger more even if others can now make it.

      Its a fair game, they knew the rules, there was no recent big changes in anything.

  • Jf2mad

    In an outwardly neutral seeming article there is still bias. the author states:

    “the Armscor M22 targets the same market as the Ruger 10/22 but at a much lower price. Rock Island Armory (RIA) began importing the Armscor M22 sometime last year and the guns have been retailing for around $160. The Ruger 10/22 Carbine with wood stock has a MSRP of $279. ”

    While this is true it is still misleading. Ruger 10/22s retail for $199 (and up depending on retailer) According to an article in Home Defense Journal date July 2013 :

    “SRP of Armscor M22: Php13,600.00 (gun only w/ one 10-shot magazine)” – $309.93 USD

    http://homedefensejournal.com/2013/07/08/armscor-m22/
    So comparing apples to apples with MSRP makes the Ruger cheaper. Comparing retail to retail may make the Armscor a little less but nowhere near what this article suggests.

    Without knocking Armscor, I would still GLADLY pay an extra 30 or so bucks to own Ruger.

    • Raoul O’Shaugnessy

      Except youre not comparing apples to apples. Youre comparing the price of the Ruger 10/22 in the USA against the price of the Armscor in the Phillippines. US-made guns are almost always more expensive overseas than they are in this country. Thats probably why Armscor made the thing to begin with.

      • Jf2mad

        Uhhh..huh? I am comparing the Armscorp company MSRP to the stated Ruger MSRP in the article. The article was comparing the US Retail price of the M22 to the Ruger MSRP of the 10/22. I think my apples are more comparable that those in the article. Either compare MSRP to MSRP or retail to retail. In MOST cases MSRP is significantly higher than retail.

        • Raoul O’Shaugnessy

          “”SRP of Armscor M22: Php13,600.00 (gun only w/ one 10-shot magazine)” – $309.93 USD” is the cost of the M22 in the Phillippines. The cost of the Ruger 10/22, in the Phillipiness, is more. You were comparing the cost of the M22 based on the price charged for it in the Phillippines against the price of the Ruger 10/22 that is charged in the US. Not apples to apples. If you compared the 10/22 vs. the M22 based on what BOTH rifles cost in the US, that would be apples to apples. Or if you compared them to what both rifles cost in the Phillippines, apples to apples.

          • Jf2mad

            This is rocket science I know but let me try one last time. The company sets the MSRP no matter what country. M22 MSRP= $309.93(no matter what country that is the manufacturers suggested retail price. Rugers suggested retail price is (according to the article) $279. So MSRP to MSRP the Ruger is cheaper.
            The article prices the retail of the M22 at $169. The Rugers list in WalMart at $199. So the M22 is cheaper than the Ruger RETAIL to RETAIL but not anywhere near what the article suggests by comparing MSRP to retail.
            Think it through….And, NO, the price quoted for the Ruger is NOT what is charged, but the MSRP. MSRP is RARELY, if ever what the item retails for.

          • Cynic

            One can have different msrp in different countries so do either of you have proof of origin for the armsCorp srp?

          • Jf2mad

            At this point I don’t even have proof that there is intelligent life on this website.

            Prove I’m wrong. The article specifically listed Rugers MSRP and quoted RIA’s “retail”.

            It’s really that simple. Are you?

          • BeGe1

            I can’t believe you’re getting so much resistance on this extremely simple concept. Maybe I’ll have better luck simplifying it for them.

            To all:

            To make a fair comparison you’d have to compare either MSRP to MSRP, or Retail to Retail. NOT the retail of one to the MSRP of another.

            Ok…do we agree on that? I hope so…

            As Jf2mad points out, this article compared the retail of one to the MSRP of the other. NOT PROPER!

            He then shows that the MSRP to MSRP comparison AS WELL AS the retail to retail comparison (both of the possible proper comparisons). This is the correct way to do it.

            If you scanned and didn’t properly read his comment you may have thought he was making a MSRP to retail comparison since you just were getting chunks of one statement confused with chunks of another. But the comment is still there to go read properly. Do so, you’ll find that is not what he did. He did proper MSRP vs MSRP and then a proper retail to retail.

            —-

            On the question of varying MSRP’s:

            Yes, MSRP’s can be different in different countries…but when a company gives an MSRP and does not specify, then the only logical way to interpret that is the MSRP for everywhere. If you say that there is a different MSRP for a certain nation, then it is YOUR burden to show evidence of that, not Jf2mad’s burden to prove a negative.

          • Jf2mad

            Whew! Thanks. I was starting to doubt my ability to communicate in the local language(even if it is my own native language too). lol.
            And it’s not like I was even against RIA. They make a great product for their price-point. Well, I can at least speak of their 1911′s from personal experience. Had one and it was a tank.
            But as fantastic as Ruger has been with quality and customer service I wanted to make sure that the discrepancy was pointed out and keep the comparison fair.
            Again, I appreciate you “translating” for me. ;)

          • Cynic

            I was simply asking for origin of the msrp for the weapon and whay I got was some arrogant wanker waving his ‘look how much better I am than you’ e-peen around.

          • jcitizen

            I’m not paying attention to any of this, but I do understand the value of money vs. one country or another. When the dollar is strong, we have trouble selling our stuff overseas, when it is weak, we sell our stuff like hotcakes, because it is cheaper overseas. It is the trade in currency that makes the difference. I’m not comparing this fact to the article, I’m just putting it out there as a fact that can affect all trade.

    • javierjuanmanuel

      No it is correct. He said MSRP. That is the manufacturers suggested retail price. What you speak of is common street price.

      It is not misleading. You are misleading, you are taking two different words, and saying they are the same thing.

      MSRP is NOT street price.

      I agree, I would pay 30 more to buy american made. Not anyting against RIA they make a good value product but that is not enough of a difference to even get a glance from me, it would need to be more along the lines of how much their 1911s run as compared to others. I would start looking at their clones when they are 50% off ruger prices. Which seems very unrealistic.

      • Jf2mad

        Exactly except you are attributing the street price vs msrp to me when it is the article that did that and I am pointing that out. From the article:

        “Rock Island Armory (RIA) began importing the Armscor M22 sometime last year and the guns have been retailing for around $160. The Ruger 10/22 Carbine with wood stock has a MSRP of $279.”

        See where he states retail on the RIA and MSRP on the Ruger? That’s what I have been trying to point out. I went and found RIA’s MSRP to compare to Ruger’s MSRP.

  • Julio

    A lot of boutique firms have made improved 10/22-compatible parts of all kinds because Ruger’s simply didn’t work well enough. Meanwhile, Ruger’s own 10/22s were selling fine, so presumably they saw no need to improve/develop their design, only a perceived advantage in making it more cheaply. But now it seems they see a bigger percentage in using trademark law to put anyone who still undercuts them on price out of the game. Incidentally, a 10/22 clone from Armscor is sold in the UK under the Webley Brand as the X22, so it will be interesting to see whether Ruger target Armscor’s clones in all territories. As for the boutiques, one sincerely has to hope they won’t become collateral damage in the process.

    • iksnilol

      Never understood the fascination with the 10/22, it is badly made (the design is decent/good). If it wasn’t then people wouldn’t be making replacement parts for every single part in the gun.

      • J.T.

        Neither have I. Until the New Haven plant shut down and production got moved, the Marlins were IMO the best 22s on the market.

        • iksnilol

          How are the new ones? I am interested in buying a Marlin 795 in a couple of years (legality and stuff).

          Thought about getting the 795, adding an improved trigger (spring kit and wide trigger blade), , different stock and some target sights (maybe Tech-sights?). I am primarily interested in the 795 since it, together with the 60 is known for accuracy, which is important to me since I am used to match rifles. I don’t expect Sauer accuracy from a budget semi-auto but I would like some good accuracy, something in the sub 2 MOA league.

          • opie7afe

            go with an older 795/glenfield 70…just make sure the barrel has a JM stamp on it. also look for flaws… id take an older used 795/70 vs a new one due to quality… theres other versions marlins box magazine fed .22′s i just forget all the different model numbers…the marlin is a much more accurate gun out of the box vs a 10/22. and they do have extended magazines for the 795 just the feeding can have issues with the aftermarket mags…thats where the ruger excels, they have better higher cap mags…i wish more companies made upgrades for the marlins…

          • iksnilol

            Mags aren’t a problem, heard Pro-Mag makes some good 25 round ones, besides, I can reverse engineer it and make a copy out of metal.

            Also going with an older one would save me money on buying a new trigger guard (still buying trigger blade and improved springs). I will have to see in a couple of years when I am buying. Also it is a .22 so I shouldn’t worry about the barrel being shot out.

          • javierjuanmanuel

            ehh i would look for an old used one, from any time in the past, right up to the take over of freedom group. I have marlins from the 40s, 50s, 60s that are bolt actions, to 1960s and 70s and 80s autos like the 60 and 70P.

        • El Duderino

          I have owned both and now only own a 10/22. The 795 has better controls but I found it to be too heavy for its purpose, and the availability of magazines stinks. In most big stores like Cabela’s there is usually a bin big enough to swim in full of Ruger 25rnd mags.

      • matthew_carberry

        Like the 1911? Or any other firearm with the potential for changing parts? People change parts to improve performance, to change the look, or simply because they want to. You used to be able to build a Chevy from the frame up out of an aftermarket catalog, that didn’t make the stock Chevy “badly made.”

        • Geodkyt

          Ditto for AR15s, WWII military jeeps, etc.
          If there is enough of a market for it,non-OEM companies WILL supply aftermarket EVERYTHING, even if they have to buy licenses.

        • iksnilol

          Not quite.

          You can buy a quality 1911 for cheap and have it as is, maybe change some parts for comfort/style.

          A 10/22, is mediocre at best, yet you pay a premium for it (compared to other budget .22s that are more accurate and comfortable). If it was well made, you wouldn’t have people changing out every part except the screws.

          Haven’t seen that happen with 1911s, have seen people buying them part for part but not buying one then changing out every single part.

        • iksnilol

          I responded earlier, maybe it got deleted or I dreamt it?

          Not important.

          My point is you can buy a 1911 and leave it mostly as is, change a part or three for style or comfort. It doesn’t cost much and makes the gun more comfortable/accurate.

          10/22s people buy one, then buy all new parts until they are only a set of screws away from a second 10/22.

          Now i have seen people buying a 1911 or AR part for part, but I haven’t seen anyone buy one then change out every single part (except the screws). If you have to change out almost the entire firearm to make it work for you then I would say it is badly made.

  • iksnilol

    Shame, 300 is too much for a 10/22, 160 is about right.

    Hope Armsoc and RIA win the lawsuit.

    • javierjuanmanuel

      That is not how goods are priced. You are free to look up the net profit of ruger, they are publicly traded. Look at it as a percent of total revenue.

      Anyways it is fine the way it is, and i am a marlin guy myself. Well old marlin, pre cerberus freedumb group. You get to say what you would buy, but not the actual price, they would not make any money on a ruger 1022 selling it made in america, with the parts they use for 160.

      You should sell me your house for 45k. That is fair. Your 2 year old car, You should have to sell it to me for $3,000.

      • Panzercat

        Goods are priced by what the market will bear; nothing more, nothing less. It does not matter if you think it is fair or how much it costs to make it.

        And the irony here is the analogy you’re seeking to inflict on iksnilol gets turned right back on you. Which house are you going to buy again? The one for 100k or 45k? How about that car? Your higher priced crap won’t sell because there is lower priced competition. The consumer has just dictated exactly what they think was fair market value… Whether it cost $160 to make a Ruger branded 10/22 or not.

        Welcome to capitalism 101.

    • floppyscience

      If you’re paying MSRP, or above MSRP, you’re doing it wrong. The MSRP is $279 for a 10/22 and they’re $200-$220 in stores usually.

      • gunslinger

        just out of curiosity. if i bought a youth model 10/22, could i slap on an “adult” stock later?

        • matthew_carberry

          Yes. The receiver is the same and bolts to the stock in the same place with the same dimensions. Only the non-critical dimensions change.

      • iksnilol

        Now why would I pay 200 (+50-60 for an auto-bolt stop) for a 10/22 when i can buy a Marlin 70/795 for 100 (which already has a LSHO)? The 150 + change I save I will rather use on tech sights (70 USD) and a new stock (80-100 from Boyds), can also make a custom one with the old stock and an AR stock+adapter which can also cost about 80.

        So I can get a more accurate rifle, with tech sights and a better stock for the same price of a 10/22 out of the box with one modification (LSHO AKA “auto-bolt stop”).

        Nothing against the 10/22, not a fan of Ruger though, free market/choice and all. Just don’t prefer them.

        • floppyscience

          Well that’s your preference and there’s nothing wrong with that.

          I was a big fan of Marlin before Cerberus bought them out, shut down the factory, fired all the employees, and started making Marlin-branded products in the Remington plant. The Remington-made “Marlin” products I’ve seen have all been far inferior in terms of quality to the old Marlin and current Ruger. Plus I’m really, really, really not a fan of Cerberus and their business practices. Thus I’ll keep buying Ruger and pretend that Cerberus just retired all the brands they bought instead of making crappy copies of them.

          • iksnilol

            You can always try to find used ones, made before the Cerberus incident.

          • floppyscience

            That’s the plan… at least once .22 LR becomes relatively common and inexpensive again. :) I have no dire need for more .22s at the moment.

        • The Brigadier

          I prefer the Marlin also. It has a longer barrel – 19″ versus the 10/22′s 16″. Ruger did make a longer barreled 10/22, but no one could find one for me when I bought my 10/22. I sold it less than a year later and bought the Marlin which was half the price and is an extremely accurate and trouble free rifle. By the way I have a dozen rifles from magnum bores down to a tricked out mouse rifle (bah, but is amazingly accurate). The .22′s are for fun.

  • squashpup

    If they win, then Kel Tec should immediately turn around and sue Ruger for ripping off their P3AT.

    • jimmarch

      THIS! Thank you. It’s way, way obvious :).

      • El Duderino

        I think Ruger’s pockets are waaaay deeper than Kellgren and his merry band of gun makers. Just sayin’.

        • javierjuanmanuel

          Non issue if it was an actual infringement. If it had merit, a top firm would love to take it on contingency, with the goal of getting tens of millions from ruger. The fact that ruger is rich, does not make this case have less merit, it means it has more interest from a lawyer stand point.

          Unfortunately for keltec fan boys it is not a copy, not a patent infringement etc.

      • javierjuanmanuel

        No they should not, it is not a copy. It was inspired by the kel tec. Nothing was infringed on.

        They did not take a keltec, copy every part, and put a new logo on it. You do not understand any of these concepts.

  • Jeff Smith

    It should be noted that the Ruger 10/22 street price is a little closer to $200-$220. Still not as cheap as the Armscorp, but much closer than the $279 MSRP.

    • Michel_T

      For what it’s worth, in Canada the basic Ruger 10/22 is about $30 more expensive than the Armscorp copy… Personally, for the price difference, I’d rather get the real deal.

      • Geodkyt

        Depends — does the Armscorp have a plastic trigger housing like the current Rugers? Does the paint flake off the Armscorp receiver like it does on current Rugers? Does the basic Ruger come with a $30+ rail already installed, like the Armscorp?

  • Blastattack

    It seems that this is most likely a “trade dress infringment” type suit, similar to the ones filed by Glock, H&K and FNH against ISSC and GSG for their .22 clones of Glocks, MP5s and FN SCARs. There is nothing inherently patentable about a specific aesthetic, but the plaintiff could argue that another company is trying to pass their products off as genuine by copying the look of the original. It’s kinda weak, but it has been enforced in the past.

  • http://gunpropuls.com Brandon Barclay

    This was one of my first guns. I love this gun. Go get em ruger.

    http://gunprolus.com

  • Brian Fulmer

    Ruger shut off AMT’s copies, the LIghtning Rifle and Pistol were stainless clones of the 10/22 and Mark I/Mark II. WHY anyone would copy a Standard Pistol, I don’t know, they must be cheap to make despite the Rube Goldberg internals.

    Don’t come into Ruger’s marketspace and expect a pass, I suppose.

  • Panzercat

    “If they win it could open the floodgates for cheap imported Ruger 10/22 clones…”

    Hell. Yes. You can already build one from scratch without ever saying the name “Ruger” so a lawsuit at this point is splitting hairs, frankly. They’ve let the 10/22 franchise become the PC of rifle world and it’s a little late to cry over it.

  • cbunix23

    Ever see a bottle in the shape of a Coca-Cola bottle other than from Coke? It’s because the Coca-Cola bottle shape has been protected by a design patent since 1915.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent
    http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/designapp.jsp

    • gunslinger

      Actually, it hasn’t. From the Wikipedia article “Items can be covered by both trademarks and design patents. The contour bottle of Coca-Cola, for example, was covered by a now expired design patent,US Patent D48, 160, but is still however protected by at least a US registered trademark. (U.S. Federal Trademark Registration No. 696,147, http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=72069873)” The bottle patent was from 1915-1929. The Trademark was files for in 1959, granted in 1960. The design patent is now expired and can’t be used in legal proceedings for protection.

    • Bob Maroldy

      …and “coke” (lower case “c”) is also trademarked.

  • pikemaster1

    I’ll just buy the well made Ruger any day over the junk Armscor or RIA You get what you pay for anyways . Those copy cat Co. don’t seem to be able to come up with anything of their own worth selling ,so when and if they were ever to come up with the quality firearms Ruger makes,they might be able to make it on their own. I really don’t think Ruger has much to worry about ,most gun owners that know their firearms ,know what the want and will buy quality over the few dollars saved on cheap copies. God Bless and Molon Labe.

    • Leigh Rich

      Don’t know. The old cast receivers used to look pretty rough from Ruger. Then they changed to most parts plastic. RIA makes noce 1911′s. If they put that quality in a 10/22 they would shame Ruger.

  • Leigh Rich

    LOL saw that coming

  • The Brigadier

    The only trademark protection Ruger has is with the name of their product. If Armscor is calling their rifle the Armscor 10/22 then Ruger has a case for a legitimate trademark violation. If Armscor is making the same rifle and calling it something else then Ruger has no case. The mechanics of the rifle are covered under patent law, and in the U.S. a standard patent is only good for 13 years. If you make the product like Ruger does, they get a Utility Patent that is good for 20 years. I believe Ruger’s patent expired a long time ago for this rifle. Designs are part of a patent. If anyone wants to make a S&W Automag for instance they can. They can’t call it an Automag without violating S&W’s trademark for it. The could call it the ThunderMag and copy the internal design down to the last tiny spring and screw and they would be legal for sale in the U.S. as long as they made a few cosmetic changes to the exterior. Remember Apple suing Samsung for the rounded corners Samsung copied for the Galaxy phones? Even that doesn’t always fly, but most manufacturers make small changes to the external look of a product even though it uses the same internal design parts. Of course that didn’t stop Mazda from copying the entire body of the Porsche except for some tiny differences in the bumpers for the RX7 so design is not always a hard and fast criteria for a trademark suit. Ruger has a lot of convincing to do to prevail in this one.

  • Lockmazter

    So the Ruger MSRP is @ $119 more than the Armscor. But does the Armscor come with a 100% repair/replace lifetime warranty like the Ruger, which also enhances the resale value? I had to order some parts that were missing or damaged on a Mini 14 Ranch Rifle I bought at a show. After getting eveything straight over the phone (parts, serial #, model, etc) the total cost of the parts & shipping : ZERO ! That’s right, I didn’t even have to pay for the shipping!

  • Bob Collinsworth

    Hm-m-m-m-m I wonder if the Armscore knock-off has the same rotten trigger that Ruger puts on every 10/22 they make? I would have to guess that the Armscore trigger is better than the Ruger trigger!