Dallas Sheriff SWAT: KRISS Vector Vs. H&k UMP (Part 2)

1

As seen in Part 1 of the KRISS Vector test with the DeSoto Police Department, I promised a part two with the guys you call when the expletive hits the proverbial fan: SWAT.

After testing with DeSoto was concluded, the Sheriff’s SWAT team pulled up in two squad cars. This was the only time in my life when I have been shooting machine guns, seen two squad cars pull up, and had no fear of having to provide a lengthy explanation!

It was extremely cool getting to see these guys do their thing too. They could move and shoot, communicate, work as a team, and they were all expert marksmen. From 50 yards away they were able to pick up a gun they had never shot before (the Vector) and land all thirty rounds on the 6 inch steel ringer (and then modestly brush it off like it was not big deal). For privacy I have decided to obscure faces and names for this test.

Again Mike did his thing and gave the officers a crash course in how to operate the Vector.

3

It is worth nothing that these guys all use MP5s and M4 carbines on the job, so the Vector’s layout was very foreign to them all. Nonetheless they took to it quick and were drilling the steel on semi, burst, and fun.

4

2

I had them perform the same back-to-back style UMP/Vector test to get some feedback from men who could potentially use these firearms to save lives and stop the bad guys.

5

15

I must say this gentleman shot the guns by bursting a few times, turned around and proclaimed, “what can I say, I’m an H&K guy”. It is understandable that someone who has used an MP5 for years might gravitate to the UMP a bit more, but not to be outdone Mike asked for one more full auto mag dump on both weapons to show where the Vector’s recoil mitigation really shines:

14

After this the officer then grew a bit more enthusiastic about the Vector and said that he would not be ashamed to show up to the ball with either platform.

Officer two then had a go on both systems:

9

10

And the UMP:

11

13

12

This officer’s opinion was the same as the former. Again, they have drilled so many times with the MP5 that the layout of the UMP is just familiar to them. They were more or less equally accurate with the two platforms as well, and I imagine they would be equally dangerous to a bad guy with either.

Again I got in on the action with the Vector too:

7

8

While I will probably never use either of these guns for anything but punching holes in paper, I personally believe the Vector is a better SMG when it comes to full auto controlability.

To sum up this test, I guess it comes down to what you have trained with. While the officers from the previous test did not have many preconceived notions about either gun, these guys are so used to the HK platform that familiarity was the name of the game. They were equally accurate with each gun, but probably would have chosen the UMP because of ingrained muscle memory. They did however agree that the Vector was more pleasant to shoot, and that with some practice and training they could easily become as good with it as they are with their duty weapons.

For what my opinion is worth however, I will take a Vector please!

Continue Reading Part 3 Here.

Related

Alex C.

Alex is a writer for The Firearm Blog who was born and raised in Texas with years of experience in hunting, shooting competitions, and general collecting. A degree in History from Baylor University has contributed to his love of both early and modern firearms technology, but Alex is most fond of machine guns and other NFA toys.
You can reach Alex at alex.capps@thefirearmblog.com


Advertisement

  • Patrick Mingle

    Besides having fun on the range how often is full auto even used in LE applications? I would guess not very often, but I would be curious (and grateful) to hear a LEO’s perspective

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      As a retired LEO and on our SRU team I can tell you that full auto is seldom if ever used.

      • http://schwarmenius.wordpress.com/ Schwarmenius

        Usually only at very close range, and pretty much only with subguns if memory serves, right?

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          You probably would fire more than one round but in semi auto and aimed. It really is more effective one on one especially.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          Certainly no AR’s on full auto. Talk about over penetration!

      • Patrick Mingle

        Out of curiosity did you or any of your fellow officers ever use FA in the field during your time in law enforcement?

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          No none of us ever had the need. Practice only.

          • Matrix_3692

            What about 3-round bursts?

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            No never happened. It really isn’t that much of an advantage if any. Hard to believe possibly but accurate aimed fire wins the day.

    • Mazryonh

      I would think that when it comes to SWAT, full-auto isn’t used unless hostages aren’t likely to be in the area and you need quick suppressive fire during an area-clearing action pronto. SWAT normally gets called into urban CQB environments with hostages or bystanders that are trapped in an active threat’s area (think school shootings), or otherwise to cordon off a dangerous someone who is either talked down with negotiators or neutralized by sniper fire. Besides, in built-up areas, collateral damage from bullets that penetrate walls are bad for publicity and the police legal budget, something which is likelier to happen with full-auto fire in built-up areas anyway. And isn’t the whole point of a larger-caliber round like the .45 ACP supposed to be to require less shots on target for neutralization?

      There was one post by Dr. Gary Roberts, a terminal ballistics expert, that did mention these operators needing to use full-auto fire to compensate for the narrow diameters of PDW rounds fired from weapons like the FN P90 and the HK MP7A1:

      http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm

      • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

        We never ever use suppressive fire unless one officer is forced to engage multiple suspects, The only other reason is if the suspect has an automatic weapon. Over penetration is a big concern on full auto or even semi auto but the chance of sending a round where you don’t want it is greater on full auto.
        Generally the location is scouted to determine areas safe to fire from.

        • Mazryonh

          I see, still, terrorists are nothing if not insidious and perfidious. I wouldn’t be surprised if things get more drastic during those kinds of situations in the future.

      • claymore

        Police are NOT free fire “operators” different for the military.

        • http://schwarmenius.wordpress.com/ Schwarmenius

          Hence why lethal grenades and belt-fed machine guns have been consistent “no-nos” for LE and SWAT since their inception.

          • sianmink

            occasionally they’ll acquire flashbangs strong enough to lift the entire roof off of a house though.

          • yeti
          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Those are used to protect us as well as the suspect. Better to rattle your brain than shoot someone.

          • oink

            Epic newspeak. You’re “protecting” the suspect by invading his home, assaulting him and killing his pets because you were ordered to do so by politicians.

            But then again cops are little more than dumb animals to be used as pawns for domestic policy, to borrow a quote from Henry Kissinger.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

            Tell Alex Jones I said hi.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Yep not even considered.

        • yeti

          Looks like free fire doperators hosing down a house in the video of the Jose Guerena murder-by-SWAT.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          That’s for sure. At least until you enter and confronted with an armed suspect.

    • claymore

      None period. Unless there is a future ongoing terrorist attack. Police are “responsible” for EVERY shot down range and will be called to account for every one of them. Sorry but in my opinion that includes multiple active shooters.

      There is little or no place in LE work for suppressive fire one must know and be able to articulate your reasons for every shot in any inquest and suppressive fire without shooting at “anything” other than keeping heads down is not a good enough reason for LE (military is a different situation). The officer responsible for those shots COULD be held personally liable for any unfortunate damage or injuries they cause.

      And don’t take this as being in anyway anit-LEOs I’m speaking from 15 years of active State Police SPTU membership in the assistant team leader position for maybe 10 of them (or version of swat) with FBI training and testifying in multiple court cases.

      LEOs HAVE to be prepared to testify in the resultant lawsuits that occur even if they did everything correctly.

  • Mazryonh

    Any reason why these operators put their hands on the magazine as a front grip when there’s already a foregrip on both the KRISS and the UMP?

    I wonder if any of these operators ever got to try the MP5/10 when it was still issued. That one really should have been more popular given the newer full-power loadings for its caliber now.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

      I would prefer the KRISS over the MP5 having used both. The MP5 was actually my issued SRU team gun.

    • iksnilol

      I always thought that the KRISS Vector would be cool if it was in 10mm Auto using quad stack mags. One can dream, right?

      • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

        Sure:-)

        • iksnilol

          But regarding the magwell grip, is it because its more comfortable?

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            Not for me. I’m just guessing but that may be the way they were taught?

          • iksnilol

            Whatever works, right? I know i find the magwell grip comfortable, mainly because of doing the same when shooting smallbore.

          • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

            It really is personal preference. I can’t see where one would be better than the other.

    • Sean Sorrentino

      There’s a very good reason to use the built in magwell grip on the Vector. It’s because that’s where the controls are. The mag release for the Vector is on that magwell. There is a rail on which you might mount the vertical foregrip, but having used it both ways, I don’t like the vertical foregrip. I don’t honestly see why anyone would use it that way. The barrel is so short that there’s no reason to try to put your hands far forward. A bigger concern is sticking your hand in front of the muzzle.

      • Y-man

        Yep! When I fired this in Atlanta in February: the guys at the Stoddard Range were VERY concerned about my possibly getting my hand in front of the muzzle…

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

      They all tried both ways to grip them, I guess to see if one way would yield better results.
      As for the MP5/10, I doubt they have tried them. These guys were in their early to mid 30s, and the MP5/10 was not made for very long, nor was it popular. I have looked into the MP5/10s quite a lot, and the Achilles heel is that they rattle themselves apart after about 3,000 rounds. The MP5 is optimized for 9mm, and even on high speed camera while shooting 9mm the gun looks gelatinous. They can rain .40 S&W indefinitely though.

      • Mazryonh

        I understand, I haven’t seen the MP5 rattle itself apart. But there’s something I don’t get; why would it do that when the base design, the G3 Rifle, was designed to fire 7.62mm NATO, a far more powerful cartridge?

  • Matrix_3692

    Just out of curiosity, can the Vector handle the .45 Super cartridge?
    I’ll love to see what performance this combination yield.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

      I highly doubt it. I did ask the guys about 10mm and they said demand is there.

      • Matrix_3692

        Isn’t the .45 Super cartridge suppose to have a hell lot more muzzle energy than the 10mm Auto cartidge? And I believe the .45 caliber will have an edge over the 10mm in terms of stopping power.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

          Not sure, but I do know that the victims of 10 mm is a long and distinguished list. It takes a lot more than just reaming a 40 caliber barrel to make a gun successfully shoot 10 mm for any duration of time.

      • Chris

        You know Glock 21′s don’t have problems shooting 45super from their stock barrels(usually just needs a spring swap). Unless they are really cutting back on the amount of material used for weight it probably wouldn’t have that much of an effect. Now if they decided to make a 460rowland barrel for it that would be interesting.

      • Steve (TFB Editor)

        I would love to use the Vector in 10mm Auto :D

  • 12B

    It is a shame there were no videos with these articles

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

      Wait for part 3 :)

  • bbmg

    To me the Kriss Vector always seemed to be a lot of gun for very little barrel.

    Since no one seems to use it with the stock folded, why not make it a bullpup?

    In the style of the JS-9 perhaps: http://images.qianlong.com/mmsource/images/2005/05/10/050510milmachinegun01.jpg

    • nick

      the idea behind the kriss is that it forces the energy of the bolt downwards in front of the grip making the front of the gun go down, if it was a bullpup the energy of the would go bolt downwards behinde the grip making the front of the gun go up.

      • bbmg

        I always had the impression that it was the low boreline that was responsible for the reduced muzzle climb.

        • sianmink

          The boreline certainly has something to do with it, but the recoil system is a big factor as well.

        • Chris

          45acp doesn’t really require much barrel to reach its full potential. Long barrels on most pistol calibers has very little effect on velocity.

          Now for some like the 357magnum, 44magnum, and other slow burners it picks up a ton of speed.

          • bbmg

            BBTI have some actual data which is interesting, this is the graph for some 45 ACP loads: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/45auto.html

            At a glance, going from a 6″ barrel to a 12″ barrel yields increases of about 100 ft-lbs in muzzle energy for many loads, which is not insignificant – a 185 grain bullet at 500 feet per second is doing 100 ft-lbs, and that alone is more than enough to kill you if it hits a vital area.

            My contention is that since you have the extra length anyway, might as well squeeze some performance benefit out of it too.

        • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Phil W “Senior Writer TFB”

          Low boreline yes but the way the internals are made takes care of the recoil and muzzle rise.

          • bbmg

            True, you could say that putting the bolt behind the grip will make the muzzle rise, but on the other hand it will be resting against the shoulder, which woud be the pivot point that shouldered weapons usually rotate around – so it would be interesting to try out.

  • Sean Sorrentino

    Why did you cite “privacy” as a concern for SWAT officers? They are police officers doing public duty in a public place. They have no expectation of privacy.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com/ Alex C.

      I would not publish photos of anyone without their consent, don’t care who they are. For the previous article, signed waivers were collected from all the officers and the chief so I could publish it (that is why it took a while to get these up). That day, I was not aware these guys were even coming so I was unable to obtain signed waivers, so I erred on the side of caution.

      • Sean Sorrentino

        That is a valid concern. Your post makes it sound like you weren’t posting their photos because they were SWAT officers, and their faces should be kept secret.

  • Lance

    Im for the UMP all the way especially if its a UMP-45. Never liked the KRISS or UZI since they use a over bloated pistol design in layout (not action of course) they are heavier and less balanced than the MP-5 or UMP-45 are. If your LE and not civilian than HK does treat you with some dignity.

  • IXLR8

    Great article! I have shot the Kriss but not the UMP. It would have been a little more even if both of the testing articles had suppressors. The 3 round burst on the Kriss was my favorite. I prefer an MP5 and the 9mm round in general for a pistol carbine.
    I hope everyone enjoyed themselves :)

  • Counsel Dew

    Are the weights of each weapon roughly the same or calculated into the results? How much difference is felt by the operator? It really isn’t like most operators will be using full auto or multiple three – round bursts in an apartment setting either… Just curious…

  • wally

    You do realize the suppressor is going to help out tremendously with recoil compared to the flash hider on the UMP right? If you’re giving guys 2 different guns to compare recoil, you should definatly have at least similar muzzle devices on them