Sten submachine gun copies and other improvised weapons – Tel Aviv

improvisedisraelistencopies improguns

Pictured is an interesting display at The Israel Defense Forces History Museum in Tel Aviv, featuring crude Sten gun copies among many other improvised firearms used around the time of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war. Also featured are some 12 gauge revolving drum shotguns which appear reasonably well crafted.

improvisedisraeliguns2 improguns

improvisedisraeliguns improguns

More submachine guns, some closely resembling the Beretta m1938.

‘Homemade flamethrowers’ – though may likely be original British ‘Lifebuoys’:

 

 

 




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  • wetcorps

    Wow they actually built the combat shotgun form Fallout 3.

    • iksnilol

      You dont know how happy I am that I am not the only one who tought that.

    • Tuborg

      I hate kids who can only define the world in terms of things that happened after they were born (around 1990). 😡

      • Tuborg

        Srry, not really mad. 🙂 To add, I also look askance at the gee whiz type of comments often seen on threads to do with ‘printed’ guns etc. When the posters quite probably can’t use a hand crank drill, drawfile, hacksaw, or use a heavy rasp file. I compare these people with those who make silly MMA type claims yet can’t do twenty lousy pushups. 🙂 :p

      • wetcorps

        Well I hate people who assume things about someone based on only one sentence and manage to get butthurt about it.

  • Blake

    You’ve got to be pretty desperate to use a homemade flamethrower…

  • id10t

    AWESOME POP UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER I HAD NO IDEA YOU HAD A NEWSLETTER UNTIL YOU PUT IN A POPUP ON EVERY ARTICLE THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN FOR POINTING OUT THAT YOU HAVE A NEWSLETTER, BECAUSE I HAD NO CLUE!

    • Steve Truffer

      ^This.

    • It should come up every now and then not every time. It doesn’t on my browser?

      • bbmg

        Every. Single. Time.

        • guest

          Every time. Instant I touch the mouse/pad, before I even get to read the article the popup takes over the screen. Every story. Every time. Chrome v Version 31.0.1650.63 m on Windows 8. Somebody = fail. Let us know who, Phil, so we can shun them.

          • Steve (TFB Editor)

            I have tried modifying the site code. It may fix it. Empty your browser cache then restart your browser. Your ISP may still cache the pages, so try loading an old post from way back in the archives. After you click “Close” it should then not popup for you on subsequent page loads.

            Bear in mind I am 99.9% sure that this is caused by adblocking extensions overreaching and messing up our sites code that has nothing to do with ads. Its very hard to fix problems when they are bugs in someone elses software not our own.

          • bbmg

            I get the same popup with and without adblocking, from different devices in different locations.

          • same guest as before

            Yeah I don’t run adblocking either (in general I don’t mind ads on the internet as long as they don’t open popup windows or play audio) so I’m sure the hyperactive newsletter popup isn’t being triggered by adblocker here on my end. I’m the guy with Chrome on Win 8.

            I am not getting the popup tonight, so whatever you did Phil may have solved the problem. Thanks for being so responsive.

            Also, while you are reading these comments, thanks for guns not politics Phil.

            As a lefty gun owner, most of the gun-related internet is pretty insufferable. Even here in California, people spend so much time complaining about California being anti-gun, and the gungrabbers and UN trying to take away their tinfoil hats, it’s really nice to have a place like this where the content is Pro Gun, not Anti anything. Thanks for making that decision and sticking to it. Keep up the good work.

          • Thanks and I hope the fix holds! We try to get on things as quickly as possible.
            Steve deserves all of the credit for guns not politics. That was one of the founding rules.

  • Mr Mxyzptlk

    Aren’t those flamethrowers just a British No. 5 Mk I and a No. 2 Mk II respectively?

  • Jonathan

    Did the Israelis receive support from Brits during the 1948 war?

    • Joe Schmoe

      Quite the opposite.

      • Jonathan

        The British supported Arabs? But it was Lord Balfour who allowed Jews to emigrate to Palestine to form a Jewish state there wasn’t it?

        • invisible empire

          only after the Brits were bombed to hell in Palestine by “organizations” like the Stern Gang and Irgun(see King David Hotel bombing for more info)

          • Joe Schmoe

            No, only after Britain reneged on its earlier declarations and mandate obligations with its White Paper.

        • Joe Schmoe

          The Balfour Declaration is just a piece of paper; it was the 1922 Mandate that formed the basis of Israel.

    • DaveP.

      (Thread Necromancy time!)
      The Brits supported the Arabs to the point of sending/selling them surplus weapons while disarming the Jewish settlers and embargoing arms imports.

  • Lance

    Shows unlike there current Arab enemy’s the Israelis mad good improvised weapons when they had too.

    • invisible empire

      Actually the CIA , the Israelis and Saudis work hand in hand to destabilize the middle east (see Iraq, Syria, soon to be Iran, etc.) in order to protect the almighty petrodollar(among other devious little shemes)

      • RocketScientist

        Yeah, and the Illuminati-Bilderberger-Opus Dei congolmerate has been promoting the hoaxed moon landings so noone will know that the jews are setting up a secret moon-base so they can broadcast their mind-control signals to the entire earth (using the metal particles seeded by those pesky contrails and the HAARP antennas as giant resonators, of course). Preach on, brother!

        • iksnilol

          Thats a bit of a low-blow RocketScientist. But I dont understand why the Saudis would want to destabilize the petrodollar (They make more money the higher it is).

  • invisible empire

    Were these weapons from before or after the US started paying to arm the IDF?

    • mikee

      A low information comment. Since the formation of Israel, military weapons suppliers came from many different nations through a variety of official and unofficial means. All nations do this.

  • bbmg

    “ImproGuns

    Homebrew firepower enthusiast and Gun Blogger (When Google decide so….)”

    Ah, so it was taken down by Google!

    Surely the content could be hosted elsewhere, there are tons of blog hosting sites out there!

  • ddearborn

    Hmmm
    Were these guns produced in violation of patents in force at the time? What we are looking at are improvised weapons used by Jewish terrorist operating in Palestine in late 1945-1948 and onward. Weapons used against the British as well as the indigenous Palestinian population. Weapons which were used against innocent men women and children. Weapons which helped the Israeli terrorists to murder hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to make way for “israel”. In a very real sense these “weapons” are no better or worse than the improvised explosives the “terrorists” are using today. Once again the Israelis are trying to rewrite history reversing their actual role as terrorists by calling themselves something else……

    • Atcavage

      Please note that the Israelis don’t employ mass suicide, rocket, and machine gun attacks on civilians. Also, Jews were massacred and the targets of riot up until the 1948 war. Just because you don’t like Jews doesn’t make them terrorists. Killing innocents as a modus operandi does.

      • ddearborn

        Hmmm

        I am not sure what you are referring to regarding “mass suicides” I guess that is israeli speak for the victims of their genocide. Israel has shot women and children dead in the street and in their homes pretty much on a regular basis for over half a century. As we speak large sections of Gaza remain flooded and without power because Israeli blew up the power plants and opened the flood gates of a damn. Israel regularly employs WP, depleted uranium, the poisoning of wells etc. Israel has denied building materials into Gaza for over 4 years. They have done so to prevent the Palestinian people from rebuilding the homes that the artillery bombardments and rocket attacks from Israeli fighter jets have destroyed. The list of atrocities committed by the IDF is endless. Oh and resisting an occupying military force by the Palestinians up to and including the use of arms is legal under international law. Stealing the land of the people you just kicked off their land under force or arms is ILLEGAL under international law. Genocide, apartheid, crimes against humanity have all been a regular part of israel’s ongoing attempts at stealing what little of the West Bank and Jerusalem they have not taken by force already. Don’t take my word for it. There are more UN sanctions against Israel than any other country in the world. Numerous world court decisions and the UN have ruled that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians completely illegal.

        Nothing I have commented on here has anything to do with criticizing Judaism. Israel is a self proclaimed “jewish state” so in the context of my comments here that is its only reference. And for the record my friend, Jewish terrorists were among the very first to employ terrorist tactics like blowing up building and bombing busy streets full of civilians. They were not part of the “Israeli government” because in late 1945 and -46 Israel did not exist.
        The USS Liberty is proof that Israel has no problem machine gunning and firing rockets at US Sailors and Marines in the water and life rafts………not to mention spending over an hour trying to sink their ship. Another truth that Israel will never be able to propagandize away.

        • AvidAK

          On behalf of logical folks who have taken the time to learn about world history and current events, piss off please. Your pathetic anti-Israel, anti-jewish dribble doesn’t belong here on this website about firearms. Your posting name, ddearborn, tells me that you are from that area of Michigan that is home to many Palestinians and that you are likely one yourself, meaning you are not able to view this conflict with a shred objectivity. Its too bad that you have been influenced by the same propaganda that has enticed thousands like you to murder Americans and Jews around the world in the name of Allah…and for what? Palestinians have nobody to blame but themselves for their $hitty existence, and hateful punks like you can’t martyr themselves off this planet quick enough. Merry Christmas

          • ddearborn

            Hmmm

            First you are off by thousands of miles. Second my Uncle spent most of 1945 and 46 in Palestine fighting Jewish terrorists as a member of the British Army. Speaking out against the tyranny of a nation, any nation including Israeli is not “anti-Semitic”. I do not speak out against any religion.

            The reason I posted these comments here because this article was a celebration of Israeli weapons. Weapons which in fact were used against innocent civilians including women and children. Suggesting that the Palestinians are to blame for Israeli atrocities against them patently ridiculous.

            I stand by every single statement I have made. Every single statement is backed by solid evidence readily available on the internet. Though using Google will always hand you pages of pro Israeli garbage first. And I am sure that the survivors of the Palestinian holocaust which is still on going would laugh at your claims.

            Addressing the comments of Joe Your statements regarding the USS Liberty are directly contradicted by the sworn statements of the Commanding Officer and his entire staff on the Liberty. Countless sworn statements from the sailors in the water prove you wrong as well. As for the flooding, it was in fact a result of Israelis releasing flood waters. And the Israelis have provided minimal help. It is all out there for people to read.

            Hate? Israel is the world champion of hate. Separate roads, separate towns, separate laws, the right of return – non jews need not apply. It does not get any more hateful than that.

            The first Dearborn that I can trace back directly landed in 1702 from England. There have been Dearborn’s in every war and conflict since. I have honorably served 7 years as an 11B. Tell me, how many years of military (US) service do you have? And where do your ancestors hail from punk?

          • Joe Schmoe

            LOL, and here come the typical ad-hominem attacks once you are shown up to be an ignorant liar at best, and a libeler at worst.

            My ancestors hail from many parts of the earth, what that has to do with this discussion is beyond me. My father was a Captain in the U.S. Army Engineers during Vietnam. I myself am an active Staff Sergeant in the Army Reserves after completing three years in your equivalent as an 11B B4. So keep trying to pull rank on me buddy, it won’t work.

            Almost nothing you have said is not the usual conspiracy trash nonsense that is not peer-reviewed, and if you wrote an academic paper using such trash it would have been thrown out after the first paragraph.

            What is most amusing, is that I’m trying to figure out exactly what “flood gates” Israel has into Gaza in the first place and how that exactly works. Please, do find me reputable sources on that one just for my own amusement (if you can).

          • ddearborn

            Hmmm

            Actually you and Joe have not disproven a single statement I have made. And it is you and Joe that have employed the usual ad-hominem attacks.

            As for the damn in question: Israel has been accused of opening the Wadi Sofa Dam east of Rafah just outside the southern Gaza Strip which has caused widespread local flooding in Gaza. Israel has also been accused of opening sewage canals. The point is that Israel has been systematically killing Palestinians for half a century. Israel has used every dirty rotten trick in the book trying to remove the indigenous Palestinian people in order to make way for annexation. And that is again very well documented. These facts have been introduced and accepted by a host of international courts. So you can attempt to impeach my statements by attacking me personally all day long. The problem Israel is facing now is that it can no longer hide behind “anti-Semitism” or its control of the World media. The internet has allowed the world to see the truth.

            Given your claim to being an Israeli soldier your obvious bias and vehement denials of the truth are understandable if misguided. It is very easy for grunts on the ground to lose sight of the overall picture. Considering it is the IDF and the Mossad that have been charged with of crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide not just by the Palestinian people, but the International community, it is no wonder you are so defensive.

            I have never been to Israel. I therefore have no first hand knowledge. But I have read many first hand accounts by people who have. On the other hand my Uncle actually was on ground fighting in Palestine well before you and I were born. He offers a far different perspective and first hand account of the atrocities that occurred during that period than you.

            All Israel has to do is give back all the lands in Palestine taken since 1967. Offer the same right of return to Palestinians that it offers to people of the Jewish faith. Tear down the wall and rebuild the infrastructure that Israel has systematically destroyed. In short Israel must treat the Palestinian people exactly the same way that Israel expects and demands its Jewish citizens are treated. With that comes peace.

            As to “pulling rank”; religious slurs were written as well as questions regarding my heritage- I responded. You could be a 4 star and it doesn’t mean a tinkers damn to me. I am an American, you are an Israeli. Enough said. Happy Holidays. Peace on earth and good will toward all mankind.

          • Joe Schmoe

            Actually, I am an American citizen as well. But I digress.

            “As for the dam in question: Israel has been accused of opening the Wadi Sofa Dam east of Rafah just outside the southern Gaza Strip which has caused widespread local flooding in Gaza. Israel has also been accused of opening sewage canals. ”

            LOL, pathetic libels that can’t even be backed up.
            Nehemia Shahaf, the Israeli municipal official responsible for the drainage system in part of the northern Negev, said there was one dam in the area, a one-meter cement structure in the Tze’elim area that directs water to a reservoir in Israeli territory, but that it could not be opened or closed. Shahaf said the water level was so high that the dam couldn’t stop it from reaching Gaza. Not much of the water goes to the reservoir because most of it seeps into the ground beforehand, Shahaf added.

            Reservoir location:
            http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Resevoir-550×386.jpg

            Even many places in Israel were flooded, yet I didn’t see any libels about the Palestinians opening up “floodgates”. Rainfall of 260 millimeters (10.23 inches) was documented in the Gaza area between December 11 and 13, comprising a staggering 60 percent of the annual average for the region.

            ” The point is that Israel has been systematically killing Palestinians for half a century. Israel has used every dirty rotten trick in the book trying to remove the indigenous Palestinian people in order to make way for annexation. And that is again very well documented. These facts have been introduced and accepted by a host of international courts. So you can attempt to impeach my statements by attacking me personally all day long. The problem Israel is facing now is that it can no longer hide behind “anti-Semitism” or its control of the World media. The internet has allowed the world to see the truth.”

            If so, Israel has been doing a fine lousy job; obviously the most incompetent job in history considering the fact that it constantly gives up its mandated territory or territory won in defensive wars; not to mention the large population growth rates and low death tolls in both areas of conflict.

            “Given your claim to being an Israeli soldier your obvious bias and vehement denials of the truth are understandable if misguided. It is very easy for grunts on the ground to lose sight of the overall picture. Considering it is the IDF and the Mossad that have been charged with of crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide not just by the Palestinian people, but the International community, it is no wonder you are so defensive.”

            Here’s what the same commanders from the International community have to say about such:
            http://youtu.be/NX6vyT8RzMo

            “All Israel has to do is give back all the lands in Palestine taken since 1967. Offer the same right of return to Palestinians that it offers to people of the Jewish faith. Tear down the wall and rebuild the infrastructure that Israel has systematically destroyed. In short Israel must treat the Palestinian people exactly the same way that Israel expects and demands its Jewish citizens are treated. With that comes peace.”

            Taken from both Egypt and Jordan, not from any Palestinians.

            1)- First of all, there was no “Palestinian land”, there was British Mandated land at the beginning. The Palestine given to the Jews in 1917 was supposed to include Trans-Jordan, an area that was then given to the Arabs to avoid the very problem we face today (Jordan today). In fact, most of the green colored areas were public areas owned by no ethnicity.

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-veVk4yGJ5UQ/UK-piiaaA0I/AAAAAAAANt8/2VojQTH9xYE/s1600/1922-mandate_for_palestine_israel.jpg

            2)- The Palestinians/Arabs REJECTED this proposal, which means those borders were never official or accepted by the Palestinians; don’t be a revisionist.

            3)- Afterwards, the area listed as “Palestinian land” was actually Egypt and Jordan respectively. In fact, the Palestinians themselves rejected their rights to this land in the PLO Charter:

            “Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.”

            Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;

            http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp

            Article 80 of the UN Charter preserves intact all the rights granted to Jews under the Mandate for Palestine, even after the Mandate’s expiry on May 14-15, 1948. Under this provision of international law (the Charter is an international treaty), Jewish rights to Palestine and the Land of Israel were not to be altered in any way unless there had been an intervening trusteeship agreement between the states or parties concerned, which would have converted the Mandate into a trusteeship or trust territory. The only period of time such an agreement could have been concluded under Chapter 12 of the UN Charter was during the three-year period from October 24, 1945, the date the Charter entered into force after appropriate ratifications, until May 14-15, 1948, the date the Mandate expired and the State of Israel was proclaimed. Since no agreement of this type was made during this relevant three-year period, in which Jewish rights to all of Palestine may conceivably have been altered had Palestine been converted into a trust territory, those Jewish rights that had existed under the Mandate remained in full force and effect, to which the UN is still committed by Article 80 to uphold, or is prohibited from altering.

            As a direct result of Article 80, the UN cannot transfer these rights over any part of Palestine, vested as they are in the Jewish People, to any non-Jewish entity, such as the “Palestinian Authority.” Among the most important of these Jewish rights are those contained in Article 6 of the Mandate which recognized the right of Jews to immigrate freely to the Land of Israel and to establish settlements thereon, rights which are fully protected by Article 80 of the UN Charter.

            Here is what the main architect of the oft-quoted U.N. Resolution 242 to had to say:

            Assuming the Middle East conference actually does take place, its official task will be to achieve peace between Israel and its Levantine neighbors in accordance with Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. Resolution 242, adopted after the Six-Day War in 1967, sets out criteria for peace-making by the parties; Resolution 338, passed after the Yom Kippur War in 1973, makes resolution 242 legally binding and orders the parties to carry out its terms forthwith. Unfortunately, confusion reigns, even in high places, about what those resolutions require.

            For twenty-four years Arab states have pretended that the two resolutions are “ambiguous” and can be interpreted to suit their desires. And some European, Soviet and even American officials have cynically allowed Arab spokesman to delude themselves and their people–to say nothing of Western public opinion–about what the resolutions mean. It is common even for American journalists to write that Resolution 242 is “deliberately ambiguous,” as though the parties are equally free to rely on their own reading of its key provisions.

            Nothing could be further from the truth. Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until “a just and lasting peace in the Middle East” is achieved. When such a peace is made, Israel is required to withdraw its armed forces “from territories” it occupied during the Six-Day War–not from “the” territories nor from “all” the territories, but from some of the territories, which included the Sinai Desert, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

            Five-and-a-half months of vehement public diplomacy in 1967 made it perfectly clear what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawals from “all” the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the “fragile” and “vulnerable” Armistice Demarcation Lines, but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called “secure and recognized” boundaries, agreed to by the parties. In negotiating such agreements, the parties should take into account, among other factors, security considerations, access to the international waterways of the region, and, of course, their respective legal claims.

            Resolution 242 built on the text of the Armistice Agreements of 1949, which provided (except in th case of Lebanon) that the Armistice Demarcation Lines separating the military forces were “not to be construed in any sense” as political or territorial boundaries, and that “no provision” of the Armistice Agreements “Shall in any way prejudice the right, claims, and positions” of the parties “in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine problem.” In making peace with Egypt in 1979, Israel withdrew from the entire Sinai, which had never been part of the British Mandate.

            For security it depended on patrolled demilitarization and the huge area of the desert rather than on territorial change. As a result, more than 90 percent of the territories Israel occupied in 1967 are now under Arab sovereignty. It is hardly surprising that some Israelis take the view that such a transfer fulfills the territorial requirements of Resolution 242, no matter how narrowly they are construed.

            Resolution 242 leaves the issue of dividing the occupied areas between Israel and its neighbors entirely to the agreement of the parties in accordance with the principles it sets out. It was, however, negotiated with full realization that the problem of establishing “a secure and recognized” boundary between Israel and Jordan would be the thorniest issue of the peace-making process. The United States has remained firmly opposed to the creation of a third Palestinian state on the territory of the Palestine Mandate. An independent Jordan or a Jordan linked in an economic union with Israel is desirable from the point of view of everybody’s security and prosperity. And a predominantly Jewish Israel is one of the fundamental goals of Israeli policy. It should be possible to reconcile these goals by negotiation, especially if the idea of an economic union is accepted.

            The Arabs of the West Bank could constitute the population of an autonomous province of Jordan or of Israel, depending on the course of the negotations. Provisions for a shift of populations or, better still, for individual self-determination are a possible solution for those West Bank Arabs who would prefer to live elsewhere. All these approaches were explored in 1967 and 1968. One should note, however, that Syria cannot be allowed to take over Jordan and the West Bank, as it tried to do in 1970.

            The heated question of Israel’s settlements in the West Bank during the occupation period should be viewed in this perspective. The British Mandate recognized the right of the Jewish people to “close settlement” in the whole of the Mandated territory. It was provided that local conditions might require Great Britain to “postpone” or “withhold” Jewish settlement in what is now Jordan. This was done in 1922. But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, “the Palestine article,” which provides that “nothing in the Charter shall be construed … to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments….”

            Some governments have taken the view that under the Geneva Convention of 1949, which deals with the rights of civilians under military occupation, Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal, on the ground that the Convention prohibits an occupying power from flooding the occupied territory with its own citizens. President Carter supported this view, but President Reagan reversed him, specifically saying that the settlements are legal but that further settlements should be deferred since they pose a psychological obstacle to the peace process.

            In any case, the issue of the legality of the settlements should not come up in the proposed conference, the purpose of which is to end the military occupation by making peace. When the occupation ends, the Geneva Convention becomes irrelevant. If there is to be any division of the West Bank between Israel and Jordan, the Jewish right of settlement recognized by the Mandate will have to be taken into account in the process of making peace.

            This reading of Resolution 242 has always been the keystone of American policy. In launching a major peace initiative on September 1, 1982, President Reagan said, “I have personally followed and supported Israel’s heroic struggle for survival since the founding of the state of Israel thirty-four years ago: in the pre-1967 borders, Israel was barely ten miles wide at its narrowest point. The bulk of Israel’s population lived within artillery range of hostile Arab armies. I am not about to ask Israel to live that way again.”

            Yet some Bush administration statements and actions on the Arab-Israeli question, and especially Secretary of State James Baker’s disastrous speech of May 22, 1989, betray a strong impulse to escape from the resolutions as they were negotiated, debated, and adopted, and award to the Arabs all the territories between the 1967 lines and the Jordan river, including East Jerusalem. The Bush administration seems to consider the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to be “foreign” territory to which Israel has no claim. Yet the Jews have the same right to settle there as they have to settle in Haifa. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were never parts of Jordan, and Jordan’s attempt to annex the West Bank was not generally recognized and has now been abandoned. The two parcels of land are parts of the Mandate that have not yet been allocated to Jordan, to Israel, or to any other state, and are a legitimate subject for discussion.

            The American position in the coming negotiations should return to the fundamentals of policy and principle that have shaped American policy towards the Middle East for three-quarters of a century. Above all, rising above irritation and pique, it should stand as firmly for fidelity to law in dealing with the Arab-Israeli dispute as President Bush did during the Gulf war. Fidelity to law is the essence of peace, and the only practical rule for making a just and lasting peace.

            Are the settlements legal? Resolved
            By Eugene W. Rostow,
            Copyright 1991 The New Republic Inc.
            The New Republic, October 21, 1991

            ———————————

            And finally, this conflict is not about the post-1967 war land disputes; it’s about the right of a single Jewish country to exist in the middle east where there are 15 Islamic countries, or in the world where there are 18 official Christian countries. HAMAS has this right in their charter:
            http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

            As for the fence, it is is not difference than the fence that runs along the U.S.-Mexico border, or across borders in many places in the world. This is not even up for a point of contention.

            As for right of return, if the Palestinians want a right of return; then they can incorporate it into their future state. What this has to do with Israel is beyond me.

            I hope this helps you on your future endeavors.

          • ddearborn

            Hmmm

            No man can serve 2 masters. No man can claim equal loyalty to 2 countries. You are an Israeli so your “status” and loyalty as well as your motives as a US citizen will always be in question.

            For the record once again; the overwhelming majority of the members of the UN and the international courts consider (and have ruled) the annexation of the West Bank, the mass removal of the indigenous Palestinian population and the new Construction of Jewish only “settlements” to be illegal under international law. The only country that interprets the resolutions that you quote in the manner you suggest is………………..Israel. Quoting the speeches from politicians has little or no legal import. The only way any border fence in the US could be construed to be similar to the Huge Barrier wall (which dwarfs the Berlin wall by the way) is if we went 30 miles into Mexico Built a concrete barrier 50 feet high and 5 feet thick. Claiming we needed the extra land for “security” and then proceeded to institute a massive immigration and building project on the Mexican land.

            The Palestinians have the right of return to the lands Israel forced them off because they are the rightful and legal owners of that land. They did not leave those lands of their own free will. They were forced off those lands by force of arms. And yes this is all about the land grabs Israel made during the 1967 war because that was when the largest land area was stolen. And what you fail to mention is that for the most part the land that Israel returned was barren desert. The United State government officially considers the “settlements” in the West Bank to be illegal under international law. As does virtually the entire rest of the world the “new republic” not withstanding.

            But for the record here is the opening of the preamble of resolution 242, the ( ) are mine.
            “(inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war) and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.”
            By all means read the entire document.

            As for your reference to the Balfour resolution I quote again
            and the ( ) are mine

            Foreign Office,
            November 2nd, 1917
            Dear Lord Rothschild,

            I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty’s Government the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet:

            “His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement [sic] of this object, (it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”)

            This document does not give Jews the right to force the indigenous population of their lands. In fact it states just the opposite. It specifically protects the civil and religious rights of the indigenous population. Some thing that Israel clearly has never done. And 242 does not extend these rights to Israel either. The fundamental flaw with your position is that essentially you are claiming the Jews have rights and privileges that they are not extending to any other group. Quite naturally the rest of the people in the world disagree. In the long run and the overall scheme of things this notion has put Israel in an untenable position. With that I leave you. And I wish you well.

          • There’s a great number of people with dual citizenship. That not only includes Israel but many other countries that allow it.

          • And a Happy New Year. I agree with you. Jews have been the fall guy for a very very long time.
            I hate it when politics are brought up since we are talking about guns not the political situation and certainly not it’s people.

        • Joe Schmoe

          Sigh.

          “Israel has shot women and children dead in the street and in their homes pretty much on a regular basis for over half a century.”

          Must have rather lousy bullets then considering the lack of casualties.

          “As we speak large sections of Gaza remain flooded and without power because Israeli blew up the power plants and opened the flood gates of a damn. ”

          Absolute lies. Israel actually did the opposite and transferred additional fuel and flooding pumps INTO Gaza to help them with this latest storm, even as Jerusalem itself remained without power and many parts of Israel flooded.

          http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4465069,00.html

          “Israel regularly employs WP, depleted uranium, the poisoning of wells etc.”

          First of all, WP is used as a smoke screen by nearly all Western armies and its use is 100% legal under international law. Secondly, the Depleted Uranium and the poisoning of wells (WTF!?) are both complete blood libels and lies.

          ” Israel has denied building materials into Gaza for over 4 years.”

          No, Israel has denied certain materials that can be used to build reinforced bunkers.

          They have done so to prevent the Palestinian people from rebuilding the homes that the artillery bombardments and rocket attacks from Israeli fighter jets have destroyed.”

          Nonsense, the Gazan’s even ‘somehow’ found enough materials to build a five star hotel:

          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/08/gaza-first-five-star-hotel

          “Oh and resisting an occupying military force by the Palestinians up to and including the use of arms is legal under international law. Stealing the land of the people you just kicked off their land under force or arms is ILLEGAL under international law. Genocide, apartheid, crimes against humanity have all been a regular part of israel’s ongoing attempts at stealing what little of the West Bank and Jerusalem they have not taken by force already.”

          Firing rockets from Gaza (which is not under any form of occupation according to anyone) randomly into Tel Aviv and other major Israeli cities is not “resistance”, it’s terror. Israel did not steal anything from the Palestinians, the West Bank was liberated from Jordan and was part of the 1922 Mandate from which Jordan stole from and occupied.

          Genocide, apartheid… How is anything Israel is doing any of those? Because if Israel is committing Genocide, then it is really damn lousy at it considering the higher growth rates in both Gaza and the West Bank than in Israel. And Apartheid…. do you even know what this means?

          “There are more UN sanctions against Israel than any other country in the world.”

          All Chapter 6’s, which are nothing more than opinion pieces by the majority Muslim nations in the U.N. and those that rely on their oil.

          “The USS Liberty is proof that Israel has no problem machine gunning and firing rockets at US Sailors and Marines in the water and life rafts………not to mention spending over an hour trying to sink their ship.”

          FFS seriously!? It was shown by a repeated declassified documents that the ship was not acknowledged to be there and that there was an Egyptian ship that was. It’s an open and shut case that only the most desperate conspiracy theorists still try to keep alive; and the key thing that even they have never shown is what Israel would have gained from such a purposeful attack!?

          http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html

    • Joe Schmoe

      “Israeli terrorists to murder hundreds of thousands of Palestinians ”

      What the hell? The entire amount of Palestinians killed between Israel and Palestinian clashes over the course of 65 years is under ~20,000…. It’s amazing how you people just make up these lies.

      • ddearborn

        Hmmm
        rewriting history are we? The number of Palestinians killed since 1945 has been widely documented at well over half a million. The number of Palestinians driven from Palestinian numbers in the Millions. This is easily and readily verifiable fact. An inconvenient truth that Israel has tried desperately to write out of history.

        • Joe Schmoe

          Really now. Show me those peer-reviewed sources where it shows that in fighting between Israel and the Palestinians, over a half a million died.

          Good luck.

        • I have a hard time buying that number—

    • I have to say when a person ignores the no politics as well as hate towards a group or race rules it really insults us all.
      I tend to go easy on people but many have been here long enough to know better. With that said I had hope the negative racial comments as well as political would stop on their own. That hasn’t happened so I am obligated to delete them.
      Please respect the rules.

  • David Vandenberghe

    Do they have a book with a list/review of firearms used by the IDF since the day of independence?