SIG Sauer SMG

sig_smg-tfb

Tactical Life has published photos of SIG Saur’s not-yet-named upcoming submachine gun.

It obviously looks similar to the AR-15, but it is unlikely many parts are interchangeable other than the pistol grip and the trigger group.
According to SigSaurGuns.com it will be available chambered in 9x19mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig.

For years people said the submachine gun was dead. I don’t think it ever died. There will always be a niche where sharing a common cartridge between both primary and secondary weapon will be an advantage.

[ Many thanks to Aaron for the tip. ]




Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • John

    Sig already makes a SMG in South America

    • Anonymoose

      Not really. That’s a totally different company making an SMG based on an obsolete SIG assault rifle they have a license for.

      • Tinkerer

        The rifle you mention -the SG 540 manufactured by FAMAE- is about as “obsolete” as, say, an AR or AK. Nevermind that the more widely known SG550 is just a 540 with very little differences -mostly the stock and the rifling-.

      • Anonymoose

        It’s more comparable to the AR15A2 or AKM. They’re still in use today and there may still be a company (or a bunch) out there producing them, but that doesn’t mean the design isn’t obsolete. Even the AR18 is obsolete now, having basically been perfected into the HK416/HK417 (and all those other short-stroke piston AR platforms, although the HK416 is touted as the best). Short-stroke ARs look to be the future for most of the world’s militaries, with HK, SIG, Steyr, Cerberus’s companies, LWRC, Barrett, Ruger, Daewoo, ZM, and the Taiwanese gov’t, just to name a few manufacturers, producing short-stroke piston rifles directly based on the AR15A2/M16A3/M4A1 and AR-18, and some of them are selling tons of said short-stroke piston rifles to military and police forces here and abroad. Even Red China has their hands on a bunch of HK G36Ks, which they’ll no doubt reverse-engineer into some sort of horrifying G36K/Type 03 hybrid monstrosity at some point in an attempt to replace their aging arsenal of other horrifying hybrid monstrosities. Then there’s rifles like the SCAR, CZ805, and Radon, which are all extremely promising but also nearly complete departures from the guns they’re intended to replace (aside from the fact that they might be able to share mags). Also, the AK system is basically dead, as the Russkies and the Poles have already noted that it reached its zenith >20 years ago with the AK107/108 (the AK12 is pretty f—in cool and all, but it’s still basically the same old long-stroke piston from 1946 inside). To say something is obsolete doesn’t mean it’s not still in use and possibly even still in production, or even still quite usable on a modern battlefield (ffs, you can take a 100yo nugget or smle into modern combat and still do a hell of a lot of damage)- just that it’s been eclipsed by the next generation of technology. I’m not even going to go into pistol tech in this post. :I

        inb4rabid AR/AK fanboyism and nostaligiafriending.

      • Tinkerer

        Don’t worry, I’ll try to be as reasonable as a “fanboy” can be. BTW: I don’t swear either by the AR OR the AK, but considering them as “obsolete” isn’t realistic. Technologically speaking, the latest quadruple-railed M4 you can find is just a Stoner AR-15 with this or that tweak. Nothing technologically revolutionary there. The technology revolution occured with the ACR program, but in the end the dollars won -right now, there’s an enormous supply of both rifles AND parts for both the AR and AK families, supply that ensures decades of inexpensive operation on both platforms -thus, making the switch to other platforms anti-economical. Simply put, the only advantage of the AR or AK families over other better-performing platforms -like the SIG or AUG families-lies in economy. But technological superiority that renders the SG540 obsolete? None at all. Quite the contrary.

      • Anonymoose

        Just you wait…soon nearly every major military small arms manufacturer (except FN, CZ, and Lucznik who have more advanced STANAG-compliant developmental rifle designs) will be replacing their classic flagship rifles with piston ARs with finicky STANAG mags, protruding buffer tubes, and SS109 bullets, while all their classic flagship handguns will be replaced with striker-fired polymer 9x19mm pistols with crappy triggers, and the developed world’s militaries will adopt these weapons in the very near future without question, even if only to appease the gun companies’ lobbyists and chickenhawks in their legislatures. The future of firearms tech development is looking pretty bland and bleak right now…

        With this current piston AR obession, it’s a lot like 100 years ago, around the time the Mauser came out, and everyone praised it as the best rifle EVAR and pretty much everyone everywhere adopted it and dropped their own original lever- and bolt-action designs for the Mauser (the Mauser system still isn’t obsolete as a hunting, survival, and sniper rifle as it’s far more durable and reliable in extremely harsh conditions than any semi-auto and it can be extremely accurate compared to other operating systems, so it will probably still be in use another hundred years from now, unless newer straight-pull bolt designs like the Blaser overtake it, though I highly doubt that will happen…hopefully they figure out something better than the current batch of piston-driven semi-auto infantry rifles by the turn of the next century though).

        Also, we’re still seeing the effects of the ACR, but that was a failed “revolution”- it had a lot of neat concepts but the only things that really came out of it were the flattop M16, Elcan scope, and the ammunition advances eventually led to the LSAT and OICW programs (the reason they ended the ACR program was that the Army said the M16 had reached its peak, but none of the exotic caseless flechette-firing doohickies were 100% better than it, and a totally new weapon system would have to be developed to replace it, hence the OICW, LSAT, and SCAR programs, which led to the XM25, LSAT, and IC programs we have today, although the entrants in the IC program aren’t nearly as ridiculously futuristic as the ones from the old ACR program).

        Also, the definition of “obsolescence,” from wiki: “Obsolescence is the state of being which occurs when an object, service or practice is no longer wanted even though it may still be in good working order.” The SG540 was never actually produced by SIG in any appreciable qualities (Manurhin did make a bunch 30 years ago, but those are all floating around Africa and Latin America now) and almost no developed countries still use it- France dropped it 35 years ago and is now considering replacing the rifle they replaced their SG540s with, and Chile and Portugal, and they might be on the verge of replacing their SG540s with Galils and/or M4A1s from the looks of things. Cheap serviceability does not necessarily mean that something is not obsolete (Central Asian cave-dwellers can build an AKM from scrap metal FFS, but that doesn’t mean it’s not obsolete), nor does the internal operating system being developed into something used in a modern design make the former system not obsolete. DVD and CD players still exist even though it’s now becoming more and more common for people to just download movies and music onto their computers without any physical storage media other than their hard drive(s) or flash drive(s) and Blu-Ray players are displacing DVD players among those who still buy their media on optical discs (you can still play DVDs and CDs in Blu-Ray player, you can still shoot .38 Special, .38LC, and .38SC from a .357 Magnum revolver, and you can shoot M193 from an M4 [although that’s really not advisable]), you can still use Windows XP (I know plenty of people who still do, and they’re always complaining about how terrible Vista was, and I don’t even know if they know about 8 yet, but I assume they’re just too lazy to upgrade to 7 since it’s been out for over 3 years now), and standalone MP3/MP4 players and older PDA-type smartphones like BlackBerries with physical QWERTY keyboards are dying out because of smartphones with touchscreens and integrated MP4 players and interwebz and all kinds of other apps of questionable usefulness, even though you can still find ridiculously cheap flip phones, MP3, DVD, and CD players in stores everywhere (I have to admit I do miss my Walkman, iPods, flip phone, and BlackBerry even if they are obsolete…).

      • W

        “Even the AR18 is obsolete now, ”

        As in its “falling from disuse?” (per description of “obsolescence” in Oxford Dictionaries)

        I couldnt disagree more.

        The only way the self loading assault rifle paradigm will fall into disuse is when something else drastically better is developed. Until then, one variant of the Ar18 or another, however extensively evolved or modified, will remain in service for decades to come. Hell, according to some science fiction writers, gas operated, cartridge-fired assault rifles will remain in service for another 500 years :D

      • Anonymoose

        It’s just not the same. A lot of the modern “AR18 derivatives” lack most of the defining features of the original AR18 (such as the folding stock and 40-round mags), and the operating systems themselves may be inspired by the AR18 but they’ve been greatly refined. Really, to say that any of these new piston rifles that entered production about 10-15 years ago or less an AR18 is like calling a Glock a 1911, or calling an SVD an SKS.

      • W

        “It’s just not the same. A lot of the modern “AR18 derivatives” lack most of the defining features of the original AR18 (such as the folding stock and 40-round mags)”

        WTF are you talking about? some modern AR18 influenced weapons, such as the SCAR and G36, have folding stocks. The 40 round magazine also didn’t define a AR18; it was fielded with USGI 20 rounders and 30 round magazines too, as it was intended to be the M16s successor.

        The AR18 also didn’t define the short-stroke piston operating system. That can be credited to the M1 carbine. It is also known as “gas tappet” and such technology was implemented in a series of weapons too numerous to list here. In essence, even the sophisticated SCAR employs technology first conceived by David Williams in 1939.

        “and the operating systems themselves may be inspired by the AR18 but they’ve been greatly refined.”

        Which is a case of you moving the goalpost. You originally said the SIG 540’s design was obsolete, as was the AR18 and others. Such technology is not being superseded by any other technology out there, thus short-stroke, long stroke, and internal piston operated rifles remain the mainstay of global military arsenals and are not obsolete (per oxford dictionary definition).

        “To say something is obsolete doesn’t mean it’s not still in use and possibly even still in production, or even still quite usable on a modern battlefield”

        Incorrect. Lets look at the word “obsolete” again. “no longer produced or used; out of date” (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/obsolete?region=us&q=obsolete)

        If it was indeed obsolete, then it would not still be in production and it is out of date. This is obviously not the case.

        “Really, to say that any of these new piston rifles that entered production about 10-15 years ago or less an AR18 is like calling a Glock a 1911, or calling an SVD an SKS.”

        No its not. Obsolete isn’t the correct word pertaining to the 540, AR18, AK, AR15, or any other system out right now.

        What new technology has been released which renders these systems obsolete? please elaborate.

        Tinkerer is correct. Calling these systems “obsolete” isn’t remotely correct. Economies of scale and production factors had a more influential affect on the popularity of one system rather than the superseded system’s technological demerits compared to competitors.

      • Anonymoose

        AR-18s can’t take USGI mags. They had proprietary mags which were a mirror image of the AR15/M16’s mags, although Sterling produced a reliable 40-round mag which was capable of being used in both AR18 and M16 magwells, which was great considering Colt had trouble just making mediocre mags that held more than 20 rounds for the M16 until about the same time Sterling came out with their 40-rounder. The standard Howa Type 89 and SAR80 (not the para versions) and all the modern piston AR15-based systems except for the ZM LR300 (which isn’t really an AR18-type short stroke system) have fixed stocks (or telescoping stocks in the case of most of the modern piston ARs). The AR18’s folding stock is a great size advantage over the AR15’s needlessly protruding buffer tube.

        The AK and AR15 platforms were recognized to be at the end of their life cycles 20 years ago, which is why there has been so many new rifle designs vying for NATO contracts since then (even if 80% of them are just proprietary piston ARs), the SG540 was pretty successful for export, but truly is obsolete as it failed to gain acceptance in Switzerland as the SG540 and it was replaced by the FAMAS (of all things) in France, and the AR18 only survives as a set of vague operating principles. dealwithit.jpg

      • W

        “AR-18s can’t take USGI mags.”

        Yes they can. Enough said. I dont care what Sterling did. They could take US GI 20 or 30 rounders in addition to the 40 rounder that was developed (which was unneeded).

        As far as folding stocks go, I already mentioned the rifles that have them that borrowed some design concepts from the AR18. and who gives a shit about folding stocks anyways? they are largely unnecessary, say for air assault troops, and the rifles that do have them are very rarely, if at all, used with their stocks folded. Even the FN SCARs folding stock has a aftermarket part from Vltor to replace it with a more rugged collapsable stock. They’re largely unnecessary and I will fault NO gun for not having one.

        Im not sure what you are talking about. “end of their life cycles 20 years ago”? if this is true, WHAT TECHNOLOGY HAS REPLACED THEM!?
        ARs, AKs, and short-stroke platforms are still being produced and introduced and yet to be introduced. This will be the case until phase disruptors or pulse rifles are developed.

        Ill ask you the same question again in case you didn’t get it the third time: What new technology has been released which renders these systems obsolete?

        Im not sure where you got the “80%” figure, but it is wrong. As far as exports go, the M16 and M4 is king right now. The HK416 is gaining in popularity, though still has yet to touch the US rifle.

        The fact is that your “obsolete” comment was untrue about the SG540 (which was intended for export, so it serviceability to this day is astonishing) and the AR18. Many, many popular weapons borrow heavily from those designs, keeping their engineering concepts alive and well.

        Disassemble a G36. Youll see the AR18 alive and kicking.

        Im really not sure why you are complicating things. Obsolete describes the trapdoor springfield and the Krag-Jorgensen. Not the AK or AR15 designs.

  • DrewN

    I do like the idea of a .357 Sig smg (as long as I’m not buying the ammo that is). I once shot a .38 Super M3A1 clone and it was awesome. That said, I’m not sure what real life advantages you’d get over 9mm to make up for the increased wear and tear and controllability issues. 7.62 x 25 would probably be better if you really needed a flat shooter that penetrated.

  • hikerguy

    While the sub-carbine and carbines have taken the lead, I do not think the SMG is quite done with. The main difference is the SMG’s poor penetration of body armor as compared to rounds used in the carbine. AP 9mm rounds, such as the Russian round used in the PP2000 SMG, give the SMG the armor penetrating ability it needs when necessary. Besides, as already mentioned, it is a good idea for subbies and pistols to use a round in common.
    The design looks like it could be adapted for use of 5.7 x 28mm or 4.6 x 30mm PDW rounds as well.

    • http://suburbansdomain.blogspot.com Suburban

      Definitely appears to have been made for a longer cartridge, and adapted to a 9mm-length cartridge. That mag looks pretty small in that magwell.

    • Lance

      Wont happen 9mm is still the leader of the market and its most common in use.

    • W

      I think the SMG goose is cooked.

      – compact, foldable stock weapon with short barrel: filled by AR-type SBR
      – suppressed aforementioned weapon: AR-type SBR (thats not even mentioning the 300 blackout that is apparently quieter than a MP5SD)
      – Machine pistol: A PDW (MP7 or P90)
      – maritime weapon: AR-type SBR
      – urban environments: AR-type SBR

      Can anybody think of a role that a SMG fills that cannot be filled by a short barreled rifle/carbine/PDW?

      • Anonymoose

        PDWs are the future of submachineguns, which are logistically better than subcarbines because they allow for caliber commonality with sidearms. HK determined that 4.6 has poor performance out of even a 5″ barrel, and dropped the UCP project, so 4.6 has no value as a real replacement for 9mm/.45 since the only weapons that use it are somewhere between compact SMGs and a select-fire pistols. 5.7 on the other hand is a much more viable replacement for 9mm and .45 in NATO service, and works great in both SMG-sized PDWs and pistols.
        Until someone comes up with a 5.56×45 pistol that isn’t just a ridiculously-short AR-15 clone with no stock, SMGs will still have a role (in the form of PDWs) in the military and police because of the caliber commonality.

      • http://2112.net Blake

        There are still a huge number of LEAs in the world that swear by the MP5. I don’t think the SMG’s goose is cooked for a while. Do not underestimate the ubiquity of the 9mm…

      • A.K. for T-7

        - Compare the ballistics of a modern +P or +P+ 9mm JHP out of a MP5 to the ballistics of 5.56x45mm out of a AR with a 7″ barrel (similar sized guns).
        – Compare the muzzle blast, recoil and full auto controllability of a MP5 to an AR type SBR, especially inside buildings.
        – Compare the size and handling of a suppressed AR type SBR in confined spaces to that of the SD6.
        – Compare the knocking down ability of a MP5K firing 9mm 147 grains JHP +P ammo to that of a 4.6 or similar.

        We had G36C’s and now the 10″ barreled HK416, but we returned to our MP5’s to do some specific work.

      • W

        “PDWs are the future of submachineguns, which are logistically better than subcarbines because they allow for caliber commonality with sidearms.”

        Very true, though I mentioned PDWs. They have more in common with SBRs than they do with submachine guns, which is the reason why I mentioned them.

        HK determined that 4.6 has poor performance out of even a 5″ barrel, and dropped the UCP project, so 4.6 has no value as a real replacement for 9mm/.45 since the only weapons that use it are somewhere between compact SMGs and a select-fire pistols. 5.7 on the other hand is a much more viable replacement for 9mm and .45 in NATO service, and works great in both SMG-sized PDWs and pistols.

        “Until someone comes up with a 5.56×45 pistol that isn’t just a ridiculously-short AR-15 clone with no stock, SMGs will still have a role (in the form of PDWs) in the military and police because of the caliber commonality.”

        The AKS74U? The Mk 18? The Micro Tavor? (im sure im forgetting several) Those are equivalent to the lengths of a traditional MP5 submachine gun. Compared to a machine pistol (like the micro uzi), they are obviously longer, but Im talking about submachine guns, not machine pistols.

        “There are still a huge number of LEAs in the world that swear by the MP5. I don’t think the SMG’s goose is cooked for a while. Do not underestimate the ubiquity of the 9mm…”

        They do because they have always traditionally used that weapon system. Units with extensive tactical experience have reverted to the use of SBRs and submachine guns are still used in organizations that have not transitioned to PDWs.

        “Compare the ballistics of a modern +P or +P+ 9mm JHP out of a MP5 to the ballistics of 5.56x45mm out of a AR with a 7″ barrel (similar sized guns).”

        Lets compare properly. A AR SBR with a 10.5″ barrel will retain superior kinetic energy and range than even a +P+ 9mm. Even with a shorter barrel, you are still talking about a cartridge that produces pressures of 62,000 PSI versus approximately 30,000 PSI with a 9mm. There is no comparison between pistol and rifle cartridges.

        “Compare the muzzle blast, recoil and full auto controllability of a MP5 to an AR type SBR, especially inside buildings.”

        Which has largely been remedied thanks to breakthroughs in new technology, such as suppressors and flash hiders. Unsurprisingly, such units that employ SBRs in those environments use suppressors, even military units. Comparing a bare bones Mk 18 to a MP5, the MP5 will produce lighter recoil, muzzle blast, and increased full auto controllability, though the Mk 18 will have less of a chance of collateral damage due to over penetration, superior kinetic energy, and more flexibility to engage threats past 100 meters.

        “Compare the size and handling of a suppressed AR type SBR in confined spaces to that of the SD6.”

        The SD6 is 26″ in overall length with the stock collapsed and a Mk 18 is the same length with about 3-4″ added with the sound suppressor. Sure, the SD6 is shorter and more controllable in automatic fire, though the Mk18 has its own advantages too.

        “Compare the knocking down ability of a MP5K firing 9mm 147 grains JHP +P ammo to that of a 4.6 or similar.”

        I dont cater to “knock down power”. As far as kinetic energy goes, the 9mm has superior kinetic energy, especially with overpressure loads. The 5.7 has superior barrier penetration capabilities and accuracy, which makes it useful for PSD work.

        “We had G36C’s and now the 10″ barreled HK416, but we returned to our MP5′s to do some specific work.”

        Sure, SMGs might be used for very, very limited roles, if that, but I still am sticking to my contention that they will become less and less relevant as firearms technology evolves.

  • John Doe

    A .357 Sig SMG would be cool. But we really need more 10mm SMGs.

    • Anonymoose

      I want a 9×25 Dillon version. :3c

    • Karina

      I agree only partially; we need more 10mm SMGs AND more .357 SIG SMGs.

    • bbmg

      We need it in 6.5 x 25 CBJ!

      Anthony Williams agrees with me: http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=625

  • James

    Does it remind anyone else of the 10mm SMG from the Fallout series?

    • http://2112.net Blake

      We and I agree!

      • Beefalo

        You win this thread, Blake.

      • abprosper

        Yep.

    • http://2112.net Blake

      Too bad Sulik was pretty much the definition of “collateral damage” with that SMG. He couldn’t hit the broad side of a brahmin with that thing.

      The strategy that always worked pretty well for me was to give Sulik that big-ass hammer and have him run into the middle of the fight and knock the baddies to the ground. Most of the time they wouldn’t have enough action points to be able to get up and shoot in the same turn, so they’d spend most of their time either getting up or punching Sulik. He also made a pretty effective “damage sponge” that way, poor guy…

      Meanwhile, I stay out of harm’s way and shoot them in the head with the gauss rifle :-).

  • Big Daddy

    I see all these SMGs and PDWs and SBRs and it makes me wonder. Why not take the old 7.92mmX33mm Kurz, use some faster burning powder so that it could be used with a short barrel and see how that would work.

    The real size of the bullet is closer to 8mm which is a nice size and it’s about 125g. It hits about like a 7.62X39. The design of the bullet would be better than any pistol round and have more range and power.

    I really wonder what an AR set up to fire that round would do. It would have to be based off an AR that is designed for the Russian round because of the cartridge and magazine. I bet up to 200M it would be better than anything out there.

    I wish someone would do it.

    • http://2112.net Blake

      Your idea of a cut-down 7.62×39 PDW cartridge is a good one & I think I remember reading about something like that somewhere. Unfortunately, there are plenty of PDW rounds out there, but other than 5.7x28mm FN none of them has really gained much traction outside the firearm for which it was originally designed.

      .357 Sig and .327 Federal are somewhat close to the concept (7.62×25 Tokarev too), but I don’t think .327 Fed was designed for semi-autos… Magnum Research might do it one day though. There are plenty of Tokarev SMG-style guns out there too, but none of them are too hot in the accuracy dept. There was also the Magpul PDR in 5.56×45.

      But we’ll get this thing in .357 Sig, which is a nice step in the right direction :-).

      • Hikerguy

        I think you hit the head on the nail with Magpul’s PDR concept. Interchangeability with normal service rounds is a plus, and it’s small and light.
        What would be even better would be if it’s chambered for .300 Blackout. Lower recoil, 220 grain for silenced work, 125 grain for normal situations, and a new saboted SLAP round for armor piercing would make it a great PDW/CQB weapon. Swichable ejection, alternative PDW/tactical lowers and a 3 baffle moderator would be icing on the cake. Maybe soon they will take up work on it again.

    • C3PO

      Like a 30 Carbine?

      • http://2112.net Blake

        .30 Carbine is great for plinking & targets but ammo selection is pretty limited; pretty much everything out there is 110gr military ball ammo with slower-burning powder to get up to 2kfps when the bullet leaves an 18″ M1 barrel. In a short bbl it’s going to have a ton of muzzle blast and not deliver as much punch as a cartridge designed for a PDW or pistol-sized bbl.

        OTOH, The fine folks over at BBTI show us that .327 Federal can easily do 1800fps and 700ft-lbs from a 6″ bbl (as does the wiki article: 1874/780 with 100gr JHP from a 5.5″ Blackhawk bbl), and personal-defense hollow-points are standard fare. .357 Sig has similar energy numbers though of course the velocity is lower due to the heavier bullet.

        Plenty of good pistols are chambered in both calibers, providing ammo commonality with your sidearm….

    • http://2112.net Blake

      Personally, in implementing the PDW concept, I think the Russians got it right with the PP2000. KPB developed a special armor-piercing +P+ 9mm load that is far too powerful for guns other than the two or three weapons designed to use it, but the new guns can of course still use plain old 9mm if the special extra-hot ammo isn’t available. The PP2000 weighs 3lbs.

      • bbmg

        Even without being loaded hot, a well designed steel cored bullet for a standard 9mm cartridge should still be able to cut through ballistic armor like butter.

  • Lance

    Looks more MP-5ish to me less AR maybe cool if they make a NFA legal for use a new three gun pistol caliber carbine.

    • http://allanofalltrades.com Allan

      definitely looks like an MP5!

  • 032125

    I’ve a hard time caring about any gun that the insane nanny state auto-proscribes, but while we’re here, why does that gun look like the photoshop cut-and-paste mashup gun from a gamer who has never actually handled a firearm?

  • Spencedaddy

    oh…my….god it´s gorgeous……

    when can I have the semi auto version, and what are kidneys going for these days?

  • Patrick

    It well be big hit if they sell at price point that cheaper than what other gun manufacturers offer up there submachine guns. All,s fact see being good seller public if SIG Saur’s offers up sell civilian verson. Which they have done on ever thing they have sold. I can see future where SIG Saur’s FN Herstal have taken over market heckler and koch once dominated.

  • mosinman

    yeah its sub gun… my solution…. make a pistol chambered in .300Bk… that way your short rifle and pistol share ammo

    • noob

      What does the holster for a .300 Blackout revolver look like?

      • mosinman

        you have to use the scabbard that mel gibson used for the sword in braveheart for it :D

  • bbmg

    Looks a bit like the honey badger: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/10/17/aac-honey-badger-300-blk-pdw/

    I would wager the above is more useful though in terms of range. If you’re going room to room then 9mm on full auto is going to be effective enough, beyond that you get the reason why the P90 and MP7 exist.

    Again, fancy “new” gun that is not particularly distinct from most other modern pistol caliber submachineguns, but firing the same tired old cartridge.

  • Raoul O’Shaugnessy

    It looks like an M4 and an MP5 got it on and had a love-child.

  • Brian in Seattle

    .357 SIG subgun? Yum!

    • noob

      Yes. Finally.

      If you can get a 357Sig subgun with a beta-C mag and somehow have the thing be reliable enough for police and maritime protection work then we may have something exciting on our hands.

      Alternatively a 357Sig bizon would be even better.

      • John Doe

        A quad-column mag for this would be awfully neat. If someone can make a reliable mag that holds a ridiculous amount of .357 Sig or 10mm, that could potentially be a pretty great subgun.

      • bbmg

        Maybe the Spectre could be rechambered: http://world.guns.ru/smg/it/spectre-m4-e.html

    • Karina

      Yes! Finally a .357 SIG subgun! I can’t wait for SIG Sauer to publish more details about it.

  • JDub

    10mm…bah.

    .460 Rowland, BABY!!

    Now that would be one nasty sumbitch.

  • So?

    Hope this one doesn’t weigh 8 pounds.

  • JD

    I think telescoping wire stocks are incredibly obsolete this day and age. A folding polymer stock would be lighter, tougher, more stable, and much more ergonomic. It also avoids that cliche HK look.

    Civilized opinion aside, holy crap why would anyone in their right mind try and put a wire stock on a modern firearm. Even the high quality HK 9X examples were complete garbage.

  • Mike Knox

    Looks like SIG went G3->MP5 on it’s 516..

  • Ian

    Well at least the grip angle is closer to correct.

  • Masood

    Want. I’m really enjoying my Sigs. I have two Sig 556’s that function flawlessly and just picked up a 716, with a 516 on order. I would buy one of these in a second. Nice work Sig!

    PS-Is it just me or has the Firearm Blog really taken off? Nice work to you Bloggers!

  • bbmg

    I’ve already posted about this but it’s making quite mad and I need to vent. Show me the difference between someone shot by a burst from this state-of-the-art wonder weapon someone targeted by a Sten gun which a plumber put together in his garage over a couple of weekends.

    Other than the rifling land and groove markings on the bullet, absolutely nothing – and the Sten gun is literally more than 100 times cheaper than something like for example the CZ Skorpion Evo. The former might not be as tacticool, but in practice can be just as good a weapon. This begs the question, whither progress?

    • Kevin Berger
      • bbmg

        Already bookmarked :)

    • Erwos

      Ergonomics comes to mind. Weight, too. The Sten weighed 7.1lbs according to Wikipedia, and I feel like a modern polymer gun should be able to beat that handily.

      • bbmg

        Agreed, doubtless this is a good couple of pounds lighter than a Sten, and more comfortable to hold… but is that worth paying 100 times more?

        The point I’m trying to make is that it would be worth it if it was accurate at twice the range, or could penetrate twice as much body armour – but since you’re basically only going to use this for dumping a mag full of 9mm slugs into a guy down the hallway, I don’t see the beneft.

      • Erwos

        I think “100x” might be exaggerating it a bit. I would think 5-10x more than the Sten would be more reasonable, albeit the cost to set up the factory would be rather a lot higher. I guess it depends on how much you’re including in the per-unit cost.

        But there are other things that modern SMGs can improve on:
        1. Iron sights.
        2. Optics and accessory mounting options.
        3. Reliability. The Sten was not actually considered all that reliable.
        4. Field stripping without tools (albeit not in all cases).
        5. Better accuracy (one would assume modern barrels could perform better).

        Does it all make the modern SMG 5-10x “better”? I’m not sure. I think it may be unreasonable to expect that, due to the law of diminishing returns. But it seems clear to me that progress has been made, and that modern SMGs are much better than Stens… enough so that a reasonable buyer would find the increase in cost worthwhile.

        To me, it’s like comparing a Hi-Point to an HK or Sig… they’re both handguns, and both will do the job in a capable operator’s hands, but I know which one I would pay for.

      • bbmg

        Perhaps the Sten was the wrong example to drag up, I will try an automotive analogy to get my point across.

        Let’s show a modern car to someone from 1918. He will still recognise it as such, four wheels, brakes, engine that burns gasoline etc. – but in terms of performance and range, his mind will be blown by how far we’ve come.

        Hand him a submachinegun – the subject of this post shall we say – and he will marvel at how much lighter and more comfortable it is. When he shoots it though, he will be hard pressed to tell the difference between this and say an MP18. It’s shooting exactly the same cartridge, from a similar barrel length, so no other outcome can be expected.

        *FLASH NEWS*

        “NEW SUPER MODERN HIGH TECH ASSAULT RIFLE BEING DEVELOPED…”

        “Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!”

        “… CHAMBERED IN 5.56 X 45MM!”

        “Oh.”

    • Jeff M

      The M11/9 might have been the ultimate cheap powerful weapon, the Sten was pretty bad.

  • Riot

    Anyone who thinks SMGs are history is an eejit, they are perfect for what they do. This obsession with tiny barreled rifles is more to do with their legal issues than practicality, besides what happens when you try and shoot your high velocity round subsonicly through a suppressed 7″ ?

    • Erwos

      A rifle enthusiast would probably tell you that .300AAC would be ideal in your scenario.

      Personally, I have nothing against pistol caliber carbines; I have a stamp coming any day now for a 9mm AR-15 SBR, and I’m planning on doing the chop for my Uzi in the near future. As you’ve noted, they are very nice platforms for suppressed usage. Indeed, I anticipate I will be going down that path someday.

      The problem for SMGs is that they don’t do well in a lot of other cases. Indeed, it’s hard to think of many other times where I’d rather have an 8.5″ 9mm AR-15 instead of 11.5″ 5.56×45 AR-15. M193 simply hits so much harder and has a lot less overpenetration, even with the reduced ballistics coming from an SBR.

      • GreenPlease

        IMO, being able to run the same magazines in your primary and secondary is a big positive. Both 9mm and 5.56 get the job done in close quarters, though you make a very good point about 5.56 not over-penetrating. The muzzle blast on 5.56 is brutal though. Also, I personally prefer the simplicity of a blow-back system.

    • W

      I strongly disagree. Modern SBRs have more advantages than disadvantages when compared to submachine guns in equivalent operations in which they would be employed.

      Yes the muzzle blast sucks. That is why sound suppressors and peltor headsets exist. Any unit that employs such specialized weapons also has access to the two. Submachine guns are not “perfect for what they do”; no firearm is. They have comparatively weak energy, can over penetrate, and are inaccurate. Also, the firepower of a SMG can be easily matched, if not surpassed, by another frequently underestimated weapon in close quarters: A combat shotgun.

      As far as subsonic suppressed weapons go, that is one of the compelling cases for the 300 black out. Such a cartridge offers advantages to a SBR that were once only unique to submachine guns (low recoil, low noise while suppressed), while retaining the longer range and kinetic energy of a rifle cartridge.

      Of course, good points were brought up in support of SMGs. Ill admit that.

      • bbmg

        In terms of rifle performance from a subsonic round, the Russian 9 x 39mm compact assault rifles have been getting that long before the 300 blackout was even thought up, and since it fires a heavier bullet makes a bigger hole it is arguably more lethal.

  • JD

    Wire stocks have very poor cheek welds. With less contact area they have less support, and also dig in after extended periods of time.

    They also lack structural rigidity. Over time they wear and start to wobble. Not to mention that the limited thickness is more prone to damage.

    It’s good to see they offer a folding model. I suspect most of the people who disliked my post don’t have significant trigger time with HK collapsing stocks and underfolding AK’s. I know people love the looks of them, but I truly think they’re a pain in the, well….. The cheek.

    • Esh325

      I’ve never heard before that folding wire stocks were prone to being damaged or more flimsy. They’ve used them for almost 60 years now. I agree with you though that they are not as comfortable from having used them.

    • GreenPlease

      I think it really comes down to their intended use. Chances are, if you’re going to be using a sub-gun, you’re not going to have to stay on target for an hour+. Primary use would be in CQC where the benefits of compactness and deploy-ability of such a stock outweigh the negative of being a tad uncomfortable for a few minutes.

  • Esh325

    Without any ear muffs, a 11.5 SBR is probably going to be a lot louder indoors than a 9mm Subgun. A subgun is going to have less recoil,muzzle blast and muzzle rise than a short AR, especially in fully automatic or bust. Ultra short assault rifles some times suffer reliability problems because of the shortening of the gas system and different “band aids” have to be used some times such as muzzle boosters to help reliability. 9mm sub guns don’t have that problem because they fire low powered 9mm pistol rounds and are usually simpler mechanically compared to assault rifles. 9mm SMG’s while not usually any lighter, are smaller in size because of their cartridge.

    So we can see that 9mm SMG’s still have certain advantages over very short assault rifles. Some countries like Russia have learned that making AR’s very short does not always produce the best results, like the AKS-74U.

    • LJK

      The ridiculously short-barreled AR-15s have always been plagued with all kinds of problems but I haven’t heard much bad about the AKS-74U (well, none). Though, I don’t think I really know enough about them as it is.

      Any specific info on that?

      • GreenPlease

        Gas pressure (too little, it will short-stroke) unless it’s fitted with the correct muzzle device. Other than that it’s good-to-go. The 5.45×39 isn’t as harsh as the 5.56 as there isn’t as much powder to burn. Still pretty brutal though.

      • Esh325

        http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rusarmy.com%2Fstrelo%2Favt_ak-74u.htm

        This Russians translation mentions about poor accuracy and rapid overheating of the barrel. The general tone of the article is not very positive about the AKS-74U. I’ve read in other articles that there were attempts to replace the AKS-74U with the AK-105

      • LJK

        @Esh325

        Cheers. It does seem like a bit of a failed project according to that article. As a pure not-shot-that-often PDW for some non-frontline troops, sure, but doesn’t work that well as a main fighting rifle.

    • W

      It is no doubt true that SBRs are louder than SMGs and produce more muzzle rise, though you dont typically need to use burst or automatic fire with a SBR.

      Also, reliability problems were rampant two decades ago, though the Mk 18, 416D, Diablo (despite no military orders), and honey badger have largely ironed out these issues and SBRs are now just as reliable as their carbine cousins (though still not as reliable as rifles with 20″ barrels).

      As far as the AKS74U goes, it was not exactly a popular weapon. In afghanistan, it wasn’t held in high regard among those who were issued it (vehicle crews, truck drivers, etc) and they were dropped in favor of the AKS74, though elite units continued to use them in both Chechen wars. Mechanically, they are very sound. Accuracy wise, they leave much to be desired.

      Ill also agree that sub-machine guns are more simple. Blowback operated is a lot more mechanically simple than a direct impingement or short-stroke gas piston, though mechanically more complex does not necessarily mean less reliable. Yes, SBRs are not perfect, though they are very reliable. Certainly more so than they were 10-20 years ago.

      SMGs have advantages though glaring disadvantages that have essentially resulted in them being largely superseded by short barreled rifles. Eventually, with a emphasis placed on short barreled bullpups, submachine guns will fall out of favor.

      • Esh325

        I’d be very supprised if any MK18 could match the reliability of a SMG like the MP5, but I imagine it is true that the newer SBR’s are more reliable. I’m not really sure what the tactics are regarding fully automatic or burst among people who are issued SMG’s, I’ll have to look into it. As far as SBR’s displacing SMG’s in their niche, I don’t think it will happen. SBR’s have been around long enough and they don’t appear replacing SMG’s at all. I think PDW’s would be the only thing capable of replacing the SMG.

      • W

        “I’d be very supprised if any MK18 could match the reliability of a SMG like the MP5, but I imagine it is true that the newer SBR’s are more reliable.”

        From my experience, the Mk18 is a very reliable weapon system. The Diablo is even more reliable in my opinion, though I wish I could provide a more objective comparison with empirical evidence. I do know that a lot of lessons have been learned with SBRs and the technology exists that allows them to be very reliable.

        As far as SMG tactics go, short, controlled bursts are king, though this is not necessarily needed with a SBR (there are always exceptions), which performs optimally in single shot mode. I believe the less rounds you throw down range to stop a assailant, the better off everybody will be. Especially with the increased risk of collateral damage.

        Looking at military special operations teams and civilian law enforcement, I see fewer and fewer submachine guns and more SBRs. We will see more changes in the next decade as well with newer PDW-style carbines being adopted (like the KAC or Honey Badgers; not the P90s or MP7s). I think PDWs like the P90 will become more popular too.

      • Esh325

        http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/04/russian-police-moving-away-from-ak-carbines-and-makarov-pistol/ In this article, you can actually see Russian police replacing their AKS-74U’s with SMG’s instead of ordering more AKS-74U’s.

      • W

        Unsurprising that a unit would replace a 30-40 year old weapon for something modernized.

        They are replacing it because 5.45 bullets are perceived as too powerful for urban settings, with the higher probability of potentially causing a ricochet or over penetration. This would be the similar result if American police used M855 in their AR15s. Their decision is not the correct one either since they praise the PP2000, but it is a well know Russian PDW that fires overpressure 9mm armor piercing ammunition.

        Comparing Russian law enforcement to ours is not being reasonable either. During the Cold War, there was a extremely low crime rate and the police were equipped for such “eventualities”. Now? they are fighting a staggering high crime rate with Cold War era equipment.

    • bbmg

      http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=839

      I think the nutty Russians got it right.

      A big heavy bullet, over twice the weight of a typical 9mm submachinegun bullet and many times that of a 5.56mm bullet. This ensures terminal effectiveness at slow speeds, while also retaining the ability to go through armor and urban barriers.

      The standard subsonic velocity means that it is easily suppressed, yet its high sectional density and streamlined shape mean that it loses velocity relatively slowly and still has a sufficiently flat trajectory for longer ranges, and with a bigger punch when it gets there than an HV SBR which relies on speed for effect.

      300 blackout subsonic loadings are the closest western equivalent visible right now, offering probably worse terminal performance but a better trajectory.

      • Esh325

        Thanks for the interesting article. The 9x39mm does seem like an excellent CQB round.

  • Big Red One – Ramadi

    honey badger… Hk 416 Compact… This is a slight deviation since it’s a pistol caliber. With that said, it would be 10 times cooler if it took glock mags. That would never happen, but it would make sense for Sig to manufacture this in 9, 40, 45 that take sig mags with similar respect to how beretta markets their cx4storm. For this to take propietary magzines is just foolish from a design standpoint. if that is the case, it looses some of it’s cool factor.

    • GreenPlease

      Maybe Sig should standardize their magazine design around, say the 226 grip and offer high-cap mags that would be interchangeable with these new sub-guns. The Navy might even be interested in that design. Sig’s poly pistols aren’t half bad, honestly.

      I really like the idea of a sub-gun that can share mags with a pistol. I’m building a 9mm AR right now run with my G19…. because I can :D

  • http://www.blip.tv/altac6 ALTAC6

    Okay… I take one look at this, and I think:

    Sig just made the MP5 that I’ve always wanted.

    Seriously, I’ve always wanted to put a smaller selector, an AR-style push button mag release, and a bolt hold open + bolt release for faster reloads… the ONLY thing at this point is that I would have preferred the charging handle to be up front where it is on the MP5, instead of the rear AR charging handle.

  • Gavin

    I think this was made on PMG. Therefore it may be fake.

  • http://gunsofstephendent.com Stephen Dent

    I want one for christmas. What is the best price you guys know of?

  • Nicks87

    Wow, I’ve never had much experience with sub-guns but I think I need one of these. I better start saving my pennies lol.

  • Sam Suggs

    ill bet 0 parts commonality

  • Sam Suggs

    I second the glock mage motion however kriss 4 life