H&K Responds to RECOIL


H&K USA has responded to the accusation by Jerry Tsai that H&K will not sell the MP7 to civilians in the USA because they do not think civilians needs it.

Some readers have misinterpreted a recent feature story in RECOIL magazine as a reflection of HK policy. Heckler & Koch has a long presence in the US civilian market and throughout that time has been an ardent and passionate supporter of the Second Amendment and the American civilian shooter. This will always be the case. The contents, opinions, and statements expressed in that feature story are those of the writer, not Heckler and Koch’s. Additionally, the writer and RECOIL magazine have issued a clarification and apology for the ill-chosen words used in the story.

The HK MP7A1 4.6 mm Personal Defense Weapon mentioned in the story is a selective-fire product (capable of “full automatic” fire) and is currently restricted to military and law enforcement agencies by BATF. HK-USA has previously researched introducing similar commercial products, chambered in 4.6 mm, but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.

— Heckler & Koch USA

We will never know what was really said in the between Jerry Tsai and the H&K representative between bursts of full auto MP7 fire at the range, but it is up to the accuser to prove their case. If a journalist makes serious accusations, at the very least they had better have notes detailing the conversation. Tsai should have double checked with H&K public relations what their company policy was before writing what he did.

Tsai obviously did not realize he was making a serious accusation. This obvious ignorance of gun rights is why the gun community is angry and demanding blood. His resignation cannot be far away.

UPDATE: Tsai has resigned. Joe Galloway, Associate Publisher, 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords, Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords, has been suspended (presumably because of the public statements he made). This outcome was inevitable.

[ Many thanks to Casey for emailing us the link. ]

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Ian F

    You know they could just make a semi-auto version…at their US facility. Just like the FNH does with it’s SCAR (which would otherwise not be importable or available for sale). If it’s an SBR issue that can be fixed the same way FN did with the P90 or others have done with stocks and longer barrels on Uzis. This is the same crap HK has pulled with the 416 not being available. HK could, but they choose not too.

    • W

      YES!

      that is what burns my ass about HK’s reluctance to sell semi-automatic variants of their “military-looking” rifles to the American gun owner.

      For fuck’s sake, they even have a production plant in the US that manufactures the MR rifles and HK 45 pistols. :/

      Like what you said: they can do it, they just choose not to.

      “but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.”

      Bullshit. Tell me, mein liebling, why are there FN PS90s in the hands of gun owners and countless gun stores across america? Ill tell you why; its because FN is willing to sell their firearms to Americans and introduce new products to diversify their product line, even if it means taking a bullet or two (no pun intended) from the “intellectual and righteous”, Brady “armor piercing pistol” crowd.

      • Frank

        They sell the HK45 and a semi auto 416. They don’t make the Mp7 here in the US and probably don’t plan to since there’s not a market for it in the US.

      • W

        “They sell the HK45 and a semi auto 416.”

        yes i know

        “They don’t make the Mp7 here in the US”

        yes i know

        “and probably don’t plan to since there’s not a market for it in the US.”

        indeed they dont plan to but that is untrue that theres not a market for it in the US. if that was true, the PS90 would have flopped. that is not the case.

      • AnoSymun

        Seriously W? Who the heck talked about the MP7 before this whole thing, anyway? The P90 had a lot more publicity when it first came out, making its release probably a bit more viable than otherwise.
        That side, the Belgians probably already produced regular P90s in the US to begin with, making the changeover for the factories to create civilian legal once much cheaper. HK would have to bring over and build the entire factory from scratch. Not to mention redesigning the gun to be US Civie legal. All that for a gun which in the end might not even sell that well? I don’t think so.

      • 6677

        I understand the concerns about bringing over all the tooling etc, that is actually VERY expensive although in many cases you could just use the existing CNC machines that are not in use to make smaller batches (many machine shops leave machines intentionally empty, if one machine that is needed fails then they have a replacement available, setting up one of the empty machines to make the same part takes considerably less time than fixing the broken machine which will need recalibrating aswell).

        Modification to be US legal would usually just include a new sear and a longer barrel. Bam thats a semi auto weapon with a barrel long enough to not be considered an SBR or pistol, might make some sort of sense to put a larger stock on the back which would incur some manufacturing costs but if they want to do it on the cheap the MP7 already has a stock.

        It can be done, it isn’t as simple as W may seem to think but its not stupidly hard either.

      • 6677

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_MP7#Variants
        Turns out theres already a semi auto only variant. Just add a longer barrel and you have a US legal one. Might make a nice rifle for hunting small game.

      • W

        “Seriously W? Who the heck talked about the MP7 before this whole thing, anyway?”

        Theres actually plenty of articles from thefirearmblog about the MP7. Where have you been in the past year? As far as general population goes, hard to say. Im sure its presence remained largely elusive until it was portrayed in movies and video games.

        “The P90 had a lot more publicity when it first came out, making its release probably a bit more viable than otherwise.”

        Actually I disagree. The P90 came before the age of massive internet and video gaming. I would say its publicity was due largely because it was such as radical design to be released to the military and police market and because it used a unique cartridge.

        “That side, the Belgians probably already produced regular P90s in the US to begin with, making the changeover for the factories to create civilian legal once much cheaper.”

        I doubt that. It was produced based off of NATO requests and FN jumped on the design after abandoning the BRG-15 heavy machine gun. The P90s engineering allowed a easy transition to civilian legality, which FN undoubtedly planned on.

        “HK would have to bring over and build the entire factory from scratch. Not to mention redesigning the gun to be US Civie legal. All that for a gun which in the end might not even sell that well? I don’t think so.”

        No they wouldnt. HK already opened a plant here in the US http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/mil_newsroom_01152009.asp
        Which produces the HK 45 and MR series of rifles.

        I somehow dont believe that a civilian legal MP7 is as much of a engineering or sales problem as people like to make it out to be. Hell, the cartridge’s problem is its inapplicability in pistol length barrels (read about the HK UCP), so perhaps it will be more effective with a 16″ one.

    • Billy Bones

      BS on HK and shame on them for throwing Jerry under the bus.

    • Raiden

      Exactly my thoughts. Umarex has license to HK who makes the .22LR MP5 and HK416 series. Why not HK and Umarex make a .22LR MP7 ? that’s of course to consider it a sporting gun (add a fake barrel shroud to make it long with a semi) or do exactly what FNH has done with the 5.7x28mm round by making a non armor piercing spotter round at lower velocity.

  • http://www.youtube.com/80spodcastchannel nature223

    so in other words HK said they wont even THINK of a rechambering to ANOTHER civvie cartridge.. and the weapon system isnt even being USED by anyone.. it’s vaporware
    “We’re HK, and You SUCK!!” still is their mantra.

    neg away, mostly cause their gun snobs, I wont buy any HK weapons.

    • AnoSymun

      Really now? This sure looks like noone. I mean, it’s not like the SEALs use it:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_MP7#Users

      Not to mention the German and Norwegian armies. Try doing at least a little bit of research before talking. That way, you might be able not to come off as a complete ass.

      • http://www.youtube.com/80spodcastchannel nature223

        look you..
        it is NOT standard issue.
        m-16, 249, and other stuff is.. not the hackler and crap.
        and I very strongly suggest you moderate your tone or you WILL have your posting status in jeopardy. AKA dont be a jerk

      • 6677

        Actually that list does mention it being standard issue for UK military police and German counter terrorist troops so yes some people are issuing it as standard kit

      • W

        nature, you said it “wasnt used by anyone”.

        That is untrue. It is used by a number of military and law enforcement units. Not more than its counterpart, the P90, but certainly a respectable number. It is also not vaporware.

        He never said it was “standard issue” anyways. youre attacking a straw man.

        “dont be a jerk.”

        likewise.

  • L.Jefe

    Demand and supply. Still kicking myself in the ass for paying $4500 for a NIB SP89. Control the supply and you control the price. Hk parts and certain products have demanded premium prices because of the scarcity and availability. Still, Tsai screwed up.

  • freeman

    H&K we bribe our way into the hands of Mexican police/mafia but our junk has no place in your trunk.

  • JD

    Tsai must really feel like an idiot. He single handedly crashed a promising publication, and the company he supposedly quoted came back and basically said “you took our words out of context, and you’re an idiot”.

    Recoil magazine: Because we suck and everyone hates us.

    • Anon

      Or more likely, Tsai took the easy out and wrote a puff-piece on the MP7, using the typical marketing-speak that HK gave him.

      Except that it was marketing-speak from *HK*, and they’re about as in-tune with the current political climate of gun owners in the US as we are with the politics of the upper Volta. HK likely made some idiotic statements about civilians and powerful weapons, and Tsai copied them in order to appease HK.

      Of course, that was a slight mistake.

      The funny part is how thoroughly HK is willing to throw Tsai under the bus in this matter – if you’re going to act like arrogant pricks, at least acknowledge that it’s actually a company position…rather than turning around and claiming the exact opposite when someone else is getting called on it.

      • AnoSymun

        Where does it say that it’s company policy?

  • Nathaniel

    Shamelessly copied from ForgottenWeapons.com commenter Markus:

    “Here seems to be a lot of misguided hatred.

    “Unlike most of you seem to believe, Germany has laws, too. It’s not Somalia. One of them is called “Kriegswaffenkontrollgesetz” (KWKG, engl.: Law to control (the proliferation of) weapons of war. I know, that is a long word and a bit hard to pronounce.
    “The KWKG forbids exporting weapons of war to other countries. It defines what a weapon of war is. According to the KWKG weapons of war are: Machine guns, sub-machine guns, automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles (except sporting and hunting guns). Pistols are no problem – that’s why the HK 45 went more or less directly to the US civi market.
    “And here come the problems: What’s the difference between a military and a civilian semi-automatic rifle? Is a semi-auto only MP7 still a sub-machine gun or is it a rifle?
    “To make the MP7 a civilian gun in accordonance with german law would be difficult.

    - just removing the buttstock and calling it a pistol wouldn’t be enough
    - plus pistols with a caliber less than 6.3 mm are illegal in germany
    - they’d have to manufacture the barrels and the bolt heads on entirely different machinery (requ. by law or BKA? I’m not sure)
    - they’d have to make barrel, bolt head and the trigger mechanism incompatible with the mil. MP7.
    - they’d need a certificate from the BKA (think FBI while they make the job of the BATF) that has the authority in such complicated cases. They seem to deside on a day to day basis. Remember the MR556/MR223 receiver pin hassle?
    - and they’d have to comply with US laws.
    - etc…

    “You don’t like the KWKG? Have you ever heard about ITAR?
    “What is HK supposed to say. “We would like to disobey the law”?

    “I’m not sure if I have everything right. But that doesn’t matter anyway. Just believe me, it is complicated.”

    • Ian F

      And what if it was all manufactured at HK’s US Facilities?

      • Nathaniel

        I do not know how the German restrictions apply to imported parts. The SCAR is made in Belgium, and then imported and assembled as a firearm in the US. This is to get around US import restrictions. H&K has a whole extra set of restrictions on exporting. I do not know if it would be as simple as that.

    • Matt

      This is why it should be made in the United States.

      HK has long told American Civilians that we don’t matter, and that they won’t deal with us. The quote was directly from an HK Law Enforcement Executive. Mike Cabrera. I could care less about what law they have to obey in Germany. They have US Manufacturing facilities. The US Civilian market is the largest market in the world. Personally, I think American consumers should boycott HK entirely and put pressure on all LE Organizations to do the same.

      The pervasive idea that HK believes in, and has obviously believed in for the last 20 years, is that there are two classes of American citizens. LE/MIL and Subjects, and the quote proves it.

      It would have been just as easy to say exactly what Markus said, “Due to German Law, we cannot do this.” But no, they chose not to do it. And then when called on it, they blamed Jerry Tsai (Now don’t get me wrong, I still think he’s a moron), rather than address the quote and what we ALL know to be true in terms of HK Corporate Culture.

    • ducky

      Well, I’m from Germany.
      That statement is full of BS (we aren’t allowed to own sub 6.3mm pistols in Germany?!) mixed with a few true points, better forget all of this.

      • Lal

        WaffG Anlage 2 (zu § 2 Abs. 2 bis 4)
        Waffenliste

        Verbotene Waffen

        Der Umgang mit folgenden Waffen und Munition ist verboten:

        mehrschüssige Kurzwaffen sind, deren Baujahr nach dem 1. Januar 1970 liegt, für Zentralfeuermunition in Kalibern unter 6,3 mm, wenn der Antrieb der Geschosse nicht ausschließlich durch den Zündsatz erfolgt;

        • Phil White

          Lal,

          WaffG Annex 2 (to § 2 para 2 to 4)
          Weapons List

          prohibited weapons

          Dealing with the following weapons and ammunition are prohibited:

          multi-shot handguns are their first year after January 1970, is for centerfire ammunition calibers under 6.3 mm, if the drive of the projectiles are not limited by the primer composition;

    • http://www.woodsmonkey.com Tim

      HK used to import semi auto military style rifles for years. The HK 91, 93 and 94 rifles and the 94 pistol. They did so up until the first assault weapons ban. After that there were the bastardized AW Ban compliant versions of the G-36 and UMP in semi auto trim as well. So while that statement about it being too hard for them to do because of weapons laws sounds good, they obviously were able to work around it in the past. And that is without factoring in their US facilities as other folks have mentioned.

      • AnoSymun

        While that is true, it’s also true that most of those weren’t exactly major sellers. I would love to know if any of those actually ended up being economically viable. Not to mention that none of those previous weapons were additionally burdened by a proprietary calibre…

    • charles222

      I think there might be something to the whole weapons-of-war thing. You can buy the HK416 and 417, neither of which is Bundeswehr issued. You can also buy the USP, except for the P8, which isn’t exported as far as I can tell. You can’t buy a G28, either. You can buy an extremely modded G36, but not a stock one.

      I see a pattern here. :p

  • Kav

    Hold on there.
    This article is clearly condemning Jerry for running with a claim from an H&K rep that may or may not be true and may or may not reflect H&K policy.

    Then what’s this under Related Posts?
    “H&K Will Never Sell Us The MP7 Because Its Not A Sporting Gun”?

  • Simon_the_Brit

    There are quite a lot of MP 7 users.

    Our MPGS use them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7 lots more users.

  • FourString

    Hey, it’s the same company that hasn’t updated the USP magazine capacity in over a decade. Coming from a USP owner.

    I love H&K guns; I just don’t love H&K.

  • Chad

    Resignation? What for? Mr. Tsai obviously was not thorough enough in his research and made a mistake, but it is hardly worth career-killing the man. As for boycotting; really? I think things are getting out of hand.

    • JM

      Because Magpul and Streamlight have indicated that they are pulling advertising dollars, that’s why.

      I agree, he just made a small mistake. But if that mistake hurts publication in a major way: bye-bye!

    • Kyle

      Zumbo did the same thing and nearly had his career obliterated.

    • jdun1911

      Personally the whole magazine should go under as an example to the rest.

  • lyford

    My company turned down a couple of potentially profitable contracts because we just didn’t want to deal with all the damn paperwork that would have been required. I think it was a good call.

    So I completely sympathize with a company that says “It’s just not worth the hassle”, and gets on with their core business.

  • Tinkerer

    As far as I know, a company’s main concern is to maximize profit, not support agendas of any sort.

  • gunslinger

    geeze…come on HK. now i’m not all that familiar with HK products or their company policies/stances. but don’t BS people. just come out and say first hand, either we can’t because it’s illegal under these laws, it’s legal but the R&D/red tape would be too much, or we just don’t want to be in that market.

    then let the consumers choose how to respond to your company.

  • RocketScientist

    I think maybe some of you guys are over-estimating the ease with which they could bring a civilian-legal version of this gun to market in the US. The legal aspects have been discussed previously in this and other threads, but my basic take-away is that on both sides of the ‘border’ (German and US) are a vast array of import/export regulations that would require a host of changes to the MP7 design (stock, barrel, fire control group, etc. etc.) Even minor changes to an already-finalized design can be VERY difficult and costly to implement. It is usually harder and more expensive to design a part to work within the constraints (dimensions, attachment points, weight limits, etc) of a mechanism already in production when compared to a clean-sheet design. One analogy is the guy who walks into a tattoo parlor and wants a tattoo of a naked mermaid on his back: easy enough to do. Then a month later, after finding religion, he walks back in and wants his naked mermaid covered up with the Virgin Mary. Sure it’s possible, and I’ve seen some REALLY good cover-ups, but its gonna be a HELL of a lot more challenging for the tattoo artist to do the cover-up and make it look good than it did to do the mermaid when he had a blank canvas. Add in the costs to switch over manufacturing facilities for the new parts, to go through QC and all the other aspects of product development, and the costs can rise pretty quickly. If you haven’t worked for a large corporation making these type of highly-engineered products, it may seem easy to say “all they need is a barrel swap and a semi-auto trigger”, but it’s a lot more expensive and complicated than that. And if H&K’s marketing research people say there are not enough civilian sales to make it profitable, as a capitalist I certainly can’t blame them for not wanting to take a loss on it. I may not be happy with their decision, but I’m not gonna hate on them for making it.

    And as for FN and the P90… that’s a different gun from a different manufacturer made in a different country. Maybe their design was more conducive to civvy-legal conversion, or Belgian laws are more lax in this regard. Maybe their marketing research team came up with different results than H&K’s and the gun is quite profitable for them. Or maybe FN’s corporate philosophy is different from H&K’s, and they felt that making no/marginal profits on the P90 would be offset by the goodwill of the American shooting public gained by bringing such a gun to market. Either way, I’m happy they did. I’m not saying I support H&K’s decision, or even have much of an opinion of them as a corporate entity either way (only shot one of their products, and it was a nice enough pistol, but that’s the extent of my experience). I just think a lot of people are underestimating the time and cost to make a re-design (even a ‘minor’ one) of a firearm such as this.

    • http://www.woodsmonkey.com Tim

      Honestly, I don’t think the issue is whether it really is feasible to do a civvie version or not. It’s the attitude towards an civvie legal products that HK has. Maybe this one is legitimately tough to do, and they really don’t feel is worth the investment. The thing is, that based upon their prior track record and comments made in the past, folks aren’t willing to cut them much slack and believe it at this point.

      • RocketScientist

        Fair enough point. I admit, until this whole MP7 Recoil fiasco, I wasn’t aware of the perception of H&K as an anti-civvy-gun-ownership entity. I assumed all the hatred for H&K was just the typical brand wars (Ford vs. Chevy etc) you see in most industries with a devoted fan base, didn;t realize there was more to it than that until recently. I need to educate myself some on H&K’s history re. 2a issues before I form an opinion.

      • http://pistol-training.com Todd Green

        Tim — What prior track record?

        You mean like when people wanted a non-NFA MP5, so HK made the P89… which didn’t sell well enough to stay in production?

        You mean when people wanted a non-NFA/AWB-legal G36, so HK made the SL8… which didn’t sell well enough to stay in production?

        You mean when people wanted a non-NFA HK416, so HK made the MR556… which was released to a chorus of experts saying that the 416 was too expensive and too heavy and that a basic 16″ DI gun was a better choice?

        What do you want, a GMG? Blame Congress, not HK.

        How anyone can think HK is “anti-gun” is beyond me. They’re a gun company actively involved in the commercial market. They sell handguns and evil black rifles, the two most hot-button items for the Brady Bunch. Really, what more do you want? What exactly is it that they won’t sell you?

      • W

        “How anyone can think HK is “anti-gun” is beyond me. They’re a gun company actively involved in the commercial market. They sell handguns and evil black rifles, the two most hot-button items for the Brady Bunch. Really, what more do you want? What exactly is it that they won’t sell you?”

        I love HK firearms. Believe me, i have tried my damndest to justify and have empathy for their pattern of behavior. the USC the SL8…

        Then you have companies like FN that introduce the F2000, the PS90, the SCAR 17 and 16, all of whom are modified very little compared to HKs variants of their evil black guns. Need I say more?

        Because of what counterparts like FN have done, HKs behavior is unjustifiable and indefensible. sorry.

      • jdun1911

        HK has a long history of not selling weapons to civilians. Google it.

      • W

        “I assumed all the hatred for H&K was just the typical brand wars (Ford vs. Chevy etc)”

        It is. There is a huge cult-following of HK hating going on in the gun world. It seems like the cool guy thing to do is bash HK (especially repeating that stupid fucking “HK hates you” bullshit that was originally conceived in a very childish manner), and most of the praises about HK handguns specifically come from engineers and metallurgists. Go figure.

        I have to agree with scientist that there is perhaps more to the story than HK simply not willing to sell civilianized variants of these weapons. The laws regarding imports from belgium shouldnt be any different than in germany, simply because HK now has a production plant in the United States, though you never know.

        With that being said, its damned hard to stick up for HK, a company whose products I respect immensely, when they release products like the SL8 and FN is mysteriously allowed to sell their line of military-style rifles. Im running out of justifications.

        As far as H&K being “anti-second amendment”, I never really believed this. “google searches” are equivalent to searching for gold nuggets inside a septic tank.

      • http://www.woodsmonkey.com Tim

        Todd –

        The SP89 was pre-ban. Other companies sell knock offs of it now and seem to be able to keep it in production. The SL8 didn’t sell well because it was a ban era abomination at a high price. The mechanism may have been the same but with the stock set up and 10 round mags it was doomed. But guess what? The ban has been gone for quite a while now. Where are the post ban versions of the G-36 and UMP in semi trim that I bet would have sold well? As stated, pre-ban they sold the 91, 93 and 94. HK lost interest in the civilian market during the AWB and hasn’t made any sort of effort to get involved since then. Look at what they’ve offered to civilians since then and its pretty obvious. Yeah, they aren’t competing well with the MR556 but that’s not really an HK unique product and they’re competing against a whole heck of a lot of other AR platforms that offer the same or similar features for better prices. If they really wanted to compete they’d offer the stuff they’re known for.

        Honestly, I could care less what they do. There are a lot of companies out there that want civilian money, HK just doesn’t seem to be one of them. They just haven;t made much effort to engage the civilian market since before the AWB. Maybe it is just economics from their standpoint but its true regardless of the reasoning.

  • ghoststan

    Hk Can sell the mp7 in sbr semi or pistol configuration they just don’t like us having them just like many other hk weapons we will never be able to buy

    • Frank

      They would have to start making a lot of parts for it in the US, which would make it very expensive and economically unfeasible. How many KRISS’s do you see at the range?

  • snmp

    I ‘m suprise caus for LE (Police version) HK could sold semiautomatic only version. If remembrer the British MOD police force have it

  • Rob J.

    Purely from a business standpoint, maybe Jerry’s comments didn’t do the magazine any favors. That being said, are you really going to trash the editor of perhaps the most beautifully put-together magazines in the history of firearms publications? Give him a break, so he screwed up once in one paragraph in an otherwise fine magazine.

    Detractors need to look at the big picture- stop getting your panties in bunch over a supposed attack on the 2nd amendment. The Gun Rights lobby is already unstoppably powerful, and is unfazed by even the most vehement anti-gun organizations, Brady campaign included. (Just for clarification, I am a gun owner and enthusiast, and I support gun rights). ONE paragraph in ONE magazine is not going to change that. It’s also nice to read an opinion you disagree with once in a while, however wrong it may be- otherwise you just become a sycophantic media drone. (preaching to the choir, etc. etc.)

    If anything, people should start scrutinizing other gun magazines for never posting negative reviews of anything. Jerry Tsai shouldn’t be crucified for misrepresenting one issue, while we let the others get away with misrepresenting hundreds just to keep their corporate sponsorships.

    I salute Jerry Tsai and his team for producing the most well designed guns and gear publication that has ever graced the shelves of a magazine stand. An editor’s job goes far, far beyond writing articles, and it is obvious how much concentrated effort goes into each issue of RECOIL. In fact, Jerry should be commended for the number of articles he writes himself. It shows just how dedicated he is to his product. Let this one slide- he’s obviously not going to repeat the mistake.

    No need to kill a magazine with so much potential for bringing gun issues into the mainstream. RECOIL has the potential to reach a much wider audience than your average gun rag, and it can only be beneficial to the cause of gun rights.

    Just for clarification, I have no relationship with RECOIL or any associated people or companies.

    • AnoSymun

      Finally someone reasonable. I wholeheartedly agree.

      Also, whatever happened to “Firearms not Politics”?

      • jdun1911

        Giving your rights away like the European is reasonable? Giving your rights away to save a magazine is pathetic.

      • Rob J.

        …because a magazine exercising its 1st amendment rights has violated your 2nd amendment rights (it hasn’t)? Like I said earlier, Jerry Tsai will probably never make this mistake again, and allowing the magazine to flourish and reach a wider audience under his artistic vision will protect your 2nd amendment rights much better than a knee-jerk (and childish) boycott. Think ahead a little.

  • Big Daddy

    If any company for any reason does not want to sell something it’s their right. This is America remember……everybody has the right to say NO.

    If you don’t like it tough.

    You can always boycott H&K, that is also a right of every American. As is contacting the company and expressing your views.

    • FourString

      But it’s so hard to boycott them when they make such nifty toys! T-T

    • bob

      I gotta say some of the Hk bashing over hk not being able sell the MP7 to us U.S. civilians are extremely ignorant considering what some are arguing is essentially blaming hk for what they legally can’t sell to us U.S. civilians due to multiple NFA acts such as the 1934, 1968, 1986 and 1994 NFA acts that severely restrict a product like the MP7 for civilian ownership on literally every angle(look the individual acts up) and don’t compare it to a FN PS90 which was easily converted to semi-auto and for being uniquely a bull-pup to dance around some of the NFA ACTS.

      Look at it from a logical perspective if your a private business like HK in order for there to be a civilian legal MP7 for U.S. consumption according to our federal government a civilian HK MP7 would have to be mechanically altered for it to fire only in semi-auto, and redesigned not to accept the collapsing stock that comes with the full auto MP7, and have enough points to be imported as a pistol which would be damn near impossible if look at the way import points are assigned for approving a pistol for U.S. civilian importation.

      Never mind that Hk would have to design ammo that isn’t armor piercing and for what? To sell an extreme niche product that would only interest a limited customer base. Or Hk would have to make it at their U.S. facility, still significantly redesign the MP7 and add a 16 inch barrel along with the above mentioned things and spend a fortune on tolling up for it for us to only end up with a Frankenstein MP7 when they can’t keep up with demand as is, for their other U.S. made guns at their U.S. manufacturing facility due to increasing demand.

  • Lance

    Not surprised HK bows to anti gunner every time from not making a real G-36 clone to it not selling HK 91 93 and 94 to civilians after anti gunners tell them not too. HK as a company sucks there products are awesome.

  • jamieb

    Ps90 sales do not mean it will for sure be profitable with two entrys in a very niche market. They have to make money. Its the same reason not every car maker produces v12 sports car, or a 400k luxury gran tourer. There is not an unlimited market.

  • Big Daddy

    I have a question to those who know Because I do not.

    Is this weapon useful at all? I mean does it have any use? Is it a good weapon? Is it even good at being better than a M4/AR type PDW or an SMG in 9mm/.40/.45?

    Is it a weapon that produces better results for hunting, for target shooting which I doubt?

    To me as an ex-solider it is something I would not want to carry at all, ever. I would prefer the M3 grease gun I carried as a M577 driver.

    Or is it that people in the USA want to have stuff because it is Military and they just want it? That kind of sounds like a spoiled child to me.

    I can understand wanting to own one but you cannot have everything you want. As an adult that is one of the first lessons you learn to become an adult.

    • 6677

      The low caliber at a high velocity is more capable of penetrating through armour than a 9mm round from a handgun while being able to carry more ammo in a lightweight package smaller than an M4. Would I rather have an M4 in combat? yes. Idea is that someone in a non combat role like a driver could carry one without weighing their kit load down or taking up much space in the vehicle yet still maintain some degree of lethality against targets wearing body armour. It probably serves some sort of CQB role aswell although PDW are intended for defense rather than offense

    • charles222

      DEVGRU rocks the hell out of the MP7. That should tell you how useful it is. ;)

    • W

      grease gun…enough said.

      now imagine, a grease gun chambered in both 5.7 and 4.6.

      everybody wins.

      • FourString

        +1
        More 4.5x30mm / 5.7x28mm platforms on the market, plz (crosses fingers not to HK but to the big man)

      • FourString

        +1
        More 4.6x30mm / 5.7x28mm platforms on the market, plz (crosses fingers not to HK but to the big man)

      • charles222

        W, don’t you mean “grease gun with 200m max effective range”? :p

      • W

        im just throwing out ideas. I want all gun owners to be happy :D

    • Big Daddy

      Don’t knock the M3 until you tired it. In WWII the mountain troops in Italy loved them. They said at close range it was easy to get one or two rounds to fire and the German it hit was dead. Many troops used them in Nam. And that crazy Russian guy on YouTube did a video with a Thompson and M3, he said he liked the M3 better and had to get one, he was surprised. It was more accurate and controllable.

      It shoots at a low cyclic rate and therefore is very controllable. It also is compact when the stock is in. When it’s out you get a cheek weld on the rail. It had great ergonomics and fires the same round as your sidearm, the same one the Marines are using again. Firing from a cupola or drivers compartment is easy, so out of a car door would be too.

      The Philippine Marines are still using them in the Suppressed version. It can fire any round just change the barrel which screws off and bolt. Any idoit can clean it and it carries extra oil in the pistol grip.

      I loved my M3, I strapped it on my chest, well before there where any of these very cool slings out mounts out now. You could actually fire it that way right out the window of a vehicle.

      Put a rail on top and you would have a pretty cool weapon, the sights are terrible.

    • dan

      The first lesson I learned as an adult was work hard enough and I will get everything I want. And I actually learned the not getting everything I want lesson as a young kid. I would actually hope everyone learned that before they were an adult. If you became an adult without learning you don’t get everything you want then you are the very definition of a spoiled child

  • John

    If you want the MP7 so bad, just buy the Umarex officially licensed airsoft one for $200. It is very well made, an exact & faithful replica and it does full auto. Sure it’s not armour piercing, but it can shoot a metal 6mm BB at full auto for 80% of the experience for 10% of the cost.

    • AnoSymun

      It’s basically an MP7 in a different caliber. Isn’t that what everyone here wants?

    • DW

      Wait for Umarex to sell a .22lr version like they did with Uzi.

  • NI Shooter

    So we’re allowed neutered versions of all HK’s other firearms, but not an MP7? Not even a 9mm version? I guess we really do suck, they must hate us… Wait, that sounds familiar

  • Nicks87

    The HK MP7A1 is pretty impractical for any kind of sporting use. Also, if H&K sold it to civilians they would charge an arm and a leg for it, plus I’m sure ammo would be expensive and hard to find.

    I dont see any reason why a law-abiding citizen would want/need such a weapon but whatever.

    • Máté

      On the same logic, why would a law abiding citizen need a car, that can go faster, than the highest speed limit?

  • FourString

    Also: HK, Y U NO PRODUCE PROPER CIVILIAN G36????!!?!??!

  • Canti

    Ignoring pistols, let’s look at HK’s products: rifles, machine guns, sub machine guns, grenade launchers, and hell, they even have a cannon. Most of these are marketed to police, military, protection agencies, or other government employees. They are designed to overcome similarly armed opponents. The majority are not proper tools for hunting, and have limited applications in the world of competitions. This is where you can start to draw the line between a “sporting” purpose and military. Is it fun to shoot the ones with the easy mode switch? Absolutely! But a non-combatant (“civilian”) does not need this kind of firepower.

    Now let’s look at the MP7. A easily hidden, automatic weapon that fires armor piercing rounds. Even if you add a long barrel and make it semi-auto, you still have a small carbine with armor piercing rounds. What do civilians need this for? Hunting? Where in hunting do you need armor piercing capabilities? Yes, other rifles have armor piercing rounds available, but why should HK bother with such a thing in foreign markets. It will be hard enough for HK to justify that as a sporting rifle. If US markets demand this caliber so desperately, why don’t other companies step up and build a rifle around it?

    /rant

    • John Doe

      A 5.56 rifle can pierce armor as well. A 4.6mm isn’t much better. If people want to shoot it for fun, why not? Why bar people from having it, if the majority of us will be responsible?

    • W

      1st paragraph: Interchange “HK” with Colt, FN Herstal, Remington, and other prominent US gun companies. Yes, they sell “weapons of war” make a prosperous living doing it. You have no say in what “I need” as far as private small arms go just because my military-looking AR or FAL looks scary and “non sporty”. Seriously. This “needs” BS needs to stop. I dont “need” to own a large house and a luxury car either, but i can because i have the freedom to do so. If Im responsible, legal, and dont deprive anybody else from owning a MP7 then i dont know what the problem is.

      Why shouldnt HK introduce this “armor piercing” PDW? FN already did with the PS90. I also own a PWS Diablo “pistol” which is also lightweight, “armor piercing” (with readily available M855 ammunition), and is capable of automatic fire with the proper legal accommodations. The Diablo or any other pistol AR15 can tear the ass out of a MP7 or P90 ballistically yet they are easily available. I dont see how more diversification in the private firearms product line would be a bad thing. Of course, I believe in choices/options rather than “needs”.

      sorry to post adamantly about this subject, but the next person that brings up a “needs” based argument, which i support constitutionally 100%, they should expect my rebuttal.

    • dan

      Why do we not need this type of firepower? Hunting rifles blow through body armor too, and they are not even designed for that purpose.
      The second amendment doesn’t say anything about bearing arms just for hunting and sporting purposes.

  • Lal

    And that’s my dear Steve is why you should stick to guns and not politics.

    Many people here can’t read, are ignorant, don’t understand that they aren’t the nucleus of the world, don’t understand that there’re laws or that they can’t have everything.

    What a nice mess.

    • AnoSymun

      Agreed. Whatever happened to “Guns not Politics”? I always enjoyed going to this blog in particular because it didn’t participate in this kind of crap.

  • Steve H.
  • Kendu

    Why are we even making a tantrum of this?
    It is in NO way a sporting firearm, NEVER will be, even US-nerfed; you allow Suburban Sam to get it, you allow Terrorist Terry to too. It’s a frakking war machine made to put down objectors to individual freedom, not something you nay-saying plinkers can burn taxpayer dollars UNNECESSARILY just to be a ‘badass’.
    Sure, it’s Mr. Tsai’s mistake. Everyone has them, but since when do we cry for your daily driver to be revoked from you for skirting through the yellow light er’y now and then by the skin off teeth?

    • W

      “Why are we even making a tantrum of this?
      It is in NO way a sporting firearm, NEVER will be, even US-nerfed;”

      Good think the 2nd amendment isn’t constrained to “sporting firearms” and it shouldnt be. “sporting firearms” is bradey newspeak.

      “you allow Suburban Sam to get it, you allow Terrorist Terry to too.”

      Irrelevant. “terrorist terry” is merely a deceptive facade and phantom chasing shenanigan used to justify the infringement on civil liberties and THEFT of the US taxpayer but that is a entirely different matter that I wont dig into.

      Conversely, “terrorist terry” also uses the internet and media to further his/her cause (just as al qaeda and the taliban have done), though that doesn’t make infringements on the 1st amendment any more acceptable. The same can be said for the freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.

      “It’s a frakking war machine made to put down objectors to individual freedom, not something you nay-saying plinkers can burn taxpayer dollars UNNECESSARILY just to be a ‘badass’.”

      Another irrelevant “needs-based” argument. Have you ever heard of METT-TC? well certain METT-TC elements make a elmer fudd looking hunting rifle more useful than a MP7 in the event of a infantry-based ground engagement. “nay saying plinkers” burning taxpayer dollars? Im not sure what you mean because that puzzles me. If you are implying that theyre wasting dollars on the MP7 and its ammunition that can be otherwise used to pay taxes, then that is wrong and a rather twisted belief if you ask me.

      “Sure, it’s Mr. Tsai’s mistake. Everyone has them, but since when do we cry for your daily driver to be revoked from you for skirting through the yellow light er’y now and then by the skin off teeth?”

      People do…everyday. Next.

      Yes, I fully support his 1st amendment rights to say what he pleases. I alos have the right to call his contention ridiculous and contrary to the 2nd amendment to begin with. the 1st amendment does not make him immune from harsh criticism.

      Personally, I dont give a damn about “sporting needs”. As far as im concerned, Americans should be allowed unmolested access to automatics, SBRs/SBSs, suppressors, and armor piercing bullets. Unfortunately, people in government will not even consider it because their intent is to “govern”.

      • bob

        Well sad W!

    • John Doe

      Suburban Sam wants a MP7. He also has a family, so he doesn’t want to go break any laws. So he won’t go on the black market and buy one.

      Terrorist Terry wants a MP7 too. He is aiming to break some laws. So why not break another law and get a black market MP7?

    • dan

      “It’s a frakking war machine made to put down objectors to individual freedom”

      So why would we only want the government to have it? You pretty much summed up why civilians should have access to it.

  • Nicks87

    For all of you who think that the HK MP7A1 should be brought to the civilian market why not grow a spine and demand that the NFA be repealed?

    If you think Americans are responsible enough to leagally own such a weapon then why not allow ALL Class 3 and DDs to be legalized?

    In reality the 2nd amendment was ment to allow civilians to be able to carry and keep the same sort of weapons that police and military use in order to keep the govt from becoming tyrannical. The NFA violates the constitution so why not get rid of it?

    It’s sad that most Americans are too weak to stand up for the rights that were guaranteed to them. Instead they elect smooth talking criminals who find ways to limit those rights or take them away completely.

    Why are people so willing to believe the lie that restricting ownership of firearms keeps us safe? Some people think that by allowing the TSA to stick their hands down your kids’ pants that it keeps us safe from terrorists too so I guess we only have ourselves to blame for all this nonsense. Including not being able to own an HK MP7.

    Sorry for the rant and YES I know guns, not politics, but nowdays I think they go hand-in-hand weather we like it or not.

    • Bill

      Where are you from that makes your country’s firearm laws so much better than ours?

      • dan

        He never said his laws are better, all he is saying we have a right to protect ourselves, city, state and country from threats which includes a tyrannical over stepping government. He is correct we are spineless allowing a court to say our rights have limits is ridiculous.

    • Quintin

      The constant hand wringing and jailhouse lawyering on gun boards has gotten out of control. You are not the arbiter of what is allowed under the constitution, the Supreme Court is. As unfortunate as that might be, the current very conservative court has found that the 2nd amendment is indeed subject to regulation. Fortunately for us they also found it is an individual right, albeit with limits.

      My second point would be that this so called writer at Recoil magazine is typical of what you see in journalism these days. They substitute inflammatory statements, predictions that never come true, and feeble attempts at mind reading for facts. As far as I’m concerned more of them need to be shown the door. The only thing most of them do is troll for rage-o-holics to read their trash and pass it back and forth among others of the same ilk.

  • KM

    When people are buying fully-made SBRs straight from the manufacturer how can they say that it would not have enough appeal? They just don’t care about the US market. I’d rather spend my money on a p90 sbr if I had to have a pdw of some sort and from a company that cares about both civilian sales AND contract orders

  • http://www.youtube.com/80spodcastchannel nature223

    Jerry got the boot.. finally

    seeya, dont let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya

  • ducky

    “plus pistols with a caliber less than 6.3 mm are illegal in germany”
    He was not talking about centerfire but 6,3mm in general,
    according to his statement .22l.r. (5,6mm) pistols would be illegal in Germany – what they are not

    • Lal

      But it would certainly apply to a MP7 “pistol” in 4.6×30.

    • Brick

      Well german law…
      1. such a law exists
      2. It only matters for german civilians
      3. It does therefore not affect HKs production or wouldn’t affect export (that would not make sense since they do produce it) another law does apply probably.
      4. It does not affect rimfire ammunition and therefore does not affect the .22lfB

      The money quote is:
      “1.2.5
      mehrschüssige Kurzwaffen sind, deren Baujahr nach dem 1. Januar 1970 liegt, für Zentralfeuermunition in Kalibern unter 6,3 mm, wenn der Antrieb der Geschosse nicht ausschließlich durch den Zündsatz erfolgt;”

      http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/waffg_2002/anlage_2_82.html

      It says specifically only centerfire.

  • Brick

    Well there actually are two reasons to mention sporting use and it probably was mentioned. One is that any rifle (for the German law it is probably one) falls under the german “war-weapon-control-law” if it does not have a sporting use, making it harder and especially riskier economically to export those from germany or be produced by a german company.
    The second one seems to be George Bush the older. HK91 imports (which in germany actually had a sporting use) were banned by executive order due to not having a sporting use in 1989. I do not know how those work or if it is still in effect but lMO it does not really matter.

    HK will have enough trouble with the german law. This law – if applicable which it IMO is – would also affect production in the US. All that matters is that HK is a german company. There is only one easy way around this: to have some one else produce it under license, but that would be rather crazy with a pretty new product.

    I personally think the sporting use was actually mentioned because of this law. Now it is just easier for them to just deny everything than to explain. Under this law they would have to get a permit from the Bundestag, which could be revoked at any time through vote (they would be compensated somewhat). Whats easier than to rally people behind a vote, that would affect absolutely no one but a small company and non-Germans and lets you look like a hero for some?

    What scenario could lead to a vote, that would revoke the permit if it were to be granted in the first place? Well basically the same that affected the FN 5-7. Someone calls it a cop killer and you can bet that within a few weeks the permit is gone. no one in Germany has any disadvantage since it would probably be produced in the US (due to the executive order) and German lawmakers can say they protected the lifes of police officers.

    So i think the sporting use was mentioned and they jsut deny it now, since it is just easier to claim that there is no market for it. But the innitial quote had nothing do do with policy other than that they are a german company and abide the german law.

    So the “journalist” didn’t understand the context and made up his own story and now has to pay. I’d be happy if that happened more often.

  • Norm

    http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

    I think this explains it.

    HK isnt even that great so who cares about these squirrel rounds.

    • W

      stupid, stupid article.

      • Norm

        Its funny how true it is.

      • W

        in what way?

        Sure, its tongue in cheek, but nevertheless stupid. HK has awesome products. They may be placed on a holy altar like other name brand fans do with their beloved names, though i guess my experiences are different than others.

        Btw, CETME was not decided because of how it sounded, its Spanish for “Centro de Estudios Técnicos de Materiales Especiales” or the “Center for Technical Studies of Special Materials”. That is one idiotic point of that article that is easily countered.

      • W

        hmmm respond to a question with a insult. comeback when youre ready to have a adult discussion.

      • Mike Knox

        @W
        More like retarded..

      • Norm

        Your implying that it would be worth my time to even tell a H&K fanboy that their guns arnt the greatest thing since the Hi Power. That there are more accurate, lighter, and just as reliable guns out there for cheaper prices. G3s suck, FALS and M14 variants are better. G36 is a gun that is used by people who dont hardly fight. M416 is nothing new and nothing worth buying.

        Just because its German tech dousnt make it best tech.

      • W

        “Your implying that it would be worth my time to even tell a H&K fanboy that their guns arnt the greatest thing since the Hi Power. ”

        HK Fanboy? where have I said their products are the greatest thing ever? oh wait…i didnt. Draw to wrong conclusions much?

        “That there are more accurate, lighter, and just as reliable guns out there for cheaper prices. G3s suck, FALS and M14 variants are better. G36 is a gun that is used by people who dont hardly fight. M416 is nothing new and nothing worth buying.”

        Sure, that may be true, but the G3 is a rugged and reliable rifle, certainly one that I prefer over a M14. The G36 wasn’t designed to be revolutionary, just as a solution to the Bundeswehr dumping the G11. The HK416 is also nothing revolutionary, though it is demonstratively a reliable and accurate weapon system used by many countries.

        “Just because its German tech dousnt make it best tech.”

        And where did I imply such a thing? Oh wait I didnt.

        Man, you sure Ass-U-Me a lot.

      • Norm

        Haagen Daas

  • charles222

    Well, finally read the article in question at the PX today. First: This is about the stupidest firearms article I’ve ever read. It’s pandering to the gun-owners-are-testosterone-pumped-Neanderthals stereotype by going on and on about HOW DANGEROUS AND BADASS THE MP7A1 is. In the context of the article, that’s what the quote is emphasizing. Second, the magazine’s covers feel like they’re made out of sandpaper or something. Third, “RECOIL” (yes, all caps) is about the stupidest name for a gun magazine ever. It’s like naming a porn magazine “masturbation”.

    Crappy publication, crappy article. This is why I haven’t bought a firearms magazine in seven years or so-blogs like this are a far better source of information.

    • Nicks87

      Thats funny as hell!

      I totally agree about Recoil magazine. To me it looks like it panders to the “mall-ninja” crowd or to the guys that have more money than sense.

      • charles222

        Thanks Nick. I don’t think I’ll be reading Recoil again.

      • johnnybravo

        I have to say Recoil reminds me of the The Usual Suspects blog I find some good things on both the magazine and the blog, but Recoil seems to cater to the folks that love to buy toys and show them off, much in the way you see on the Usual Suspects. Flame on!

      • dan

        Sorry bro I kind of ripped your comment off.

    • dan

      I’ve never read the magazine. From the name alone I conjure up images of mall cop tacticool readers. A gun magazine trying to cross breed with X-Games culture. I seen it in happen in car magazines after the fast and retarded came out. More flash, more badass, more Operator beard and less and less substance

  • Mike Knox

    Hey, if you baloons really want some of these toys, try and understand the thing called Arms Proliferation.

    I don’t want to get into trouble but I’ll just put it in a way that isn’t that easy to understand. Only the government and certain citizens (look up the legal definition) can procure these toys without hassles. It takes certain processes to get these from manufacturer to consumer. But before it goes prom point A to point B, it has to go through Points A.1, A.2, A.3 and the a few more before B. But sometimes the consumer “changes” his/her mind before point B. So somewhere there, the products have left the manufacturer and the specific tender has left the consumer. But since it stopped at that point “where does it go”?

    Alright, not that simple is it? So an example. Last week a South East Asian Procurement for at least 1500 Assault Rifles from Europe was Cancelled just short of delivery. And who’se to say this certain country has a history of corruption and lot a care of gun laws. I think this was in North Africa last year, or Central Africal a few months ago..

    • Andrew Marcell

      Sir
      That people in third world countries have been armed by the USSR now Russian Federation, the Ukraine, DPRK, and China is not addressed by gun control activists. This is a scheme to disarm civilians in America Europe and South America. By calling people who are trying to save what is left of their civil right “Bufoons”; you show your elitist roots.If you dislike America’s Gun Culture that is your problem not ours.The American Civilian gun market has nothing to do with wars or crime outside our borders; except for the misguided gun runner operation (intended to make your lie true;an horrible failure).

  • Tinkerer

    So, you people want an MP7 but H&K won’t sell to you?

    You guys see it as an obstacle, when it can be turned into an opportunity. How about one of those carbine conversions kits like the RONI or the HERA, only that instead of making it to fit a Glock, make it to fit a Five-seveN pistol. There you have it, your own giant pistol-carbine in a PDW caliber. If you can make it look somewhat like an MP7, even better.

  • Alan

    I don’t think the MP7 would sell in any incarnation remotely resembling its current form. Proprietary calibers would make ammo prohibitively expensive and/or tough to find, and a 16-inch barrel would make it heavier and less well-balanced.

    A 9mm semiautomatic MP7 with a 16-inch barrel is nothing like the original gun, and would almost certainly be more expensive than a comparable 9mm AR-15.

    I would love a full auto, short-barrelled MP7, but that isn’t achievable under current US gun laws.