H&K Will Never Sell Us The MP7 Because Its Not A Sporting Gun

UPDATE: H&K denies the allegations made by Jerry Tsai.

Jerry Tsai, editor of RECOIL, has apologised for publicly agreeing with an H&K representative who said H&K would never sell the H&K MP7A1 to consumers because the gun has no sporting purpose. I accept Jerry apology, it is H&K’s company policy that I have a problem with.

H&K MP7

I think it goes without saying that I do not think that only guns with a “sporting purpose” should be sold to civilians, but I would argue that regardless the MP7 and the 4.6x30mm cartridge have plenty of sporting uses.

Varminters and wildcatters would go nuts for a new .17 caliber cartridge and within no time someone would begin producing bolt action rifles chambered in it.

FN USA should be commended for bringing the P90, a gun in the same class as the MP7, to market as the civilian legal FN PS90 Carbine.



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Burst

    I don’t think HK is significantly limiting the 4.6mm by not chambering in it. The ammo is out there- at absurd prices.

    While we all may WANT a civilian MP7, the factors that make it an excellent pdw preclude that. It’s the size of a pistol. To manufacture it as a pistol, we’d need new receivers (that can’t be converted to FA) New endcaps or stock welds, and a new forward grip. All of that costs money, and HKs aren’t exactly cheap normally.

    This is a case of manufacturing regulations being overly restrictive, not company policy. Canada, for example, has civilian Mp7s.

    • KC

      saw a thread on HKpro that someone paid $11k for a semi-auto one. Supposedly they aren’t to be sold to the civilian market, but I have no idea why they’d have a semi version if they didn’t want to sell it.

      • Ben

        Same reason they have semi-auto MP5’s – certain LE agencies seem full auto as more of a liability than anything (British Police etc).

    • Avery

      I don’t know. A stockless MP7 with a rail replacing the foregrip could be an interesting concept. I do think the “prevent full-auto conversion” would be the main issue.

      • Mike

        I had the same idea recently – someone wanted a civilian-legal MP7 and I saw it as a pistol more than a carbine.
        But as we all know, H&K are a bunch of dicks.

      • Burst

        The problem is that the testing and tooling for all those new parts would rip the customers a new one.

        Most of whom won’t pay $3000 for a glorified .22 mag.

    • bbmg

      The size of a pistol?

      Only if that pistol is a Desert Eagle with a 10 inch barrel…

      http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/PDWs%20×4.jpg

      It’s the size of a submachinegun.

      If you want high mach tiny projectiles, look at the 6.5 x 25mm round: http://www.cbjtech.com/sida.asp?sida=2_6.5×25%20CBJ

      It will fit into an actual pistol without the need for the MP7’s complex locking mechanism, and fire a 2 gram projectile at 2395 fps from a short barrel. By contrast the bulk of the MP7 will throw the same weight of bullet 35 fps slower – what exactly is the advantage here?

      • Mike

        Wait, so the 6.5×25 hasn’t yet been debunked as some magical pixie dust fraud?

      • bbmg

        @ Mike:

        http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=625

        Tony Williams is a respected writer, and the article linked to above was published in an equally respected journal.

        I’ll grant you that the CBJ round has not been seen in any significant production quantity, but could you point to the literature that “debunks” it as a “fraud” in terms of ballistic performance?

      • Mike

        Well, I’ll be honest: my opinion of 6.5x25mm being a fraud comes from the suspiciously enthusiastic articles on the round (and the CBJ-MS machine pistol). I just think something just can’t be that good. I mean, this kind of range and velocity in something that’s the size of Mikro Uzi? Sorry, but it sounds like The Shopping Channel sales pitch to me. Of course I may be wrong, but when I see too-good-to-be-true things like that, I’m not gonna believe them right off the bat.
        Enough that someone already managed to sell dowsing rods to the military.

      • bbmg

        @ Mike

        Fair enough, one has every right to be skeptical, however in my view the physics makes sense.

        The concept of a subcaliber round fired at much higher velocity than a standard round is well proven. The all up weight of the “ball” tungsten round and sabot is a mere 2.5 grams. the 7.62×25 Tokarev round uses pretty much the same cartridge size and can throw a 5.5 gram projectile beyond 1700 feet per second. On the face of it it seems that necking the cartridge down further ( = greater chamber pressure) and making the projectile lighter ( = greater acceleration ) would easily lead to the velocities claimed even from a short barrel.

        This combination of high velocity, high projectile density (tungsten is almost 2.5 times denser than steel) and hardness would mean that the projectile loses velocity at a low rate downrange, resulting in a flat trajectory, and has excellent armor penetration characteristics.

        The obvious question is, if it’s so brilliant, then why hasn’t it been widely adopted? There must be a reason, however I doubt it is because the ballistic performance doesn’t live up to what the manufacturers are claiming.

      • Mike

        Hmmm, what are the costs of making bullets out of tungsten, then? I think it may be a little expensive…

      • bbmg

        Tungsten is definitely more expensive than steel, but cheaper alternatives could be found, such as a longer steel bullet (with the twist rate of the barrel adjusted accordingly) or a steel bullet with a lead core.

        It would be a compromise in terms of performance, but still have no problems going through armor.

        Once you’re using sabots, you could also consider a smoothbore barrel and a drag stabilised round.

        The point is that there’s no need to scale down an assault rifle cartridge and loading mechanism in the same way that HK did.

    • Mike

      I believe the British Ministry of Defence Police have semi auto MP7s, which replaced their High powers, Sub machine guns and SA80 rifles
      Imagine the cost if H&K did sell a civilian version, How about just a pistol in this caliber, like FN have done with the 5.7×28. H&K often mention one.
      I want a new high capacity pistol/ carbine in 7.62×25

      • Komrad

        There was one in development, but they scrapped it because of poor performance from the shorter barrel.

      • W

        i think Komrad is right. a search on HK pro (which is surprisingly a awesome source of random HK trivia) revealed that the cartridge was very hot to be fired from a pistol. not that it is more powerful than a 5.7, but that it had higher peak chamber pressures and resulted in a noisy, fire breathing pistol.

    • John

      HK doesn’t need to make any changes before selling the MP7 to civilians. They already developed a semi-auto version and they’re already selling it (LE only). The MP7 is perfectly legal as a SBR, no modification necessary.

      The only reason HK doesn’t sell unmolested guns to civilians is because they hate civilians. Dead and simple.

      • Alan

        John, the semi-auto MP7 would likely be classified as a machine gun by the ATF, as it can take the machine gun internals without modification.

        However, if parts kits were to ever become available, an aftermarket conversion that does not accept these parts would be legal as a SBR, pending ATF approval.

        Furthermore, as previously stated, HK is bound by the laws of their parent country, which is very restrictive towards firearms sales. They are no more capable of ignoring German law than US gun manufacturers could ignore ATF regulations.

      • Frank

        The semi auto version is 100% made in Germany. The ATF wouldn’t approve sales of it unless it had the required number of US made parts.

      • John

        Alan, that MP7 video was shot in Canada, where the gun laws are much more draconian. Plenty of semi-auto guns have been deemed “easily modifiable to full auto” by the RCMP and banned. The fact that the MP7 still isn’t banned yet in Canada tells me that it’s purpose-built semi-auto receiver designed to be incompatible with the auto sear.

        HK-USA is a US entity, so they’re not subject to German gun laws at all.

  • aplogy not accepted, because it was stated that WE were toooo stupid to get his antigun “gov only should have it oops I messed up and got caught..need to apologize for my WORDS” half ass apology.
    Need I say the magazine is for AIR SOFTERS to jerk off on?
    and I like air soft for training, but the mall ninja mindset is glaring from these idiots at this rag. big pictures stupid advise, and just bad publicity from a new gun magazine. think SWAT and guns and weapons for law enforcement magazine, still are my go to’s.
    Tsai is the face of this magazine and I dont trust him OR his lame ass “oops I screwed the pooch and got caught with my dick in the dog apology”
    you all can neg the hell out of this, but I wont change my stance and will NOT allow another Zumbo to screw our gun rights, by capitulating to the leftists, and their “only government should have these” mindset.
    and Tsai….Title TWO *is* Legal if you got the deep enough pockets.
    I’ve got friends with machine guns, it aint rocket science to obtain them.

    • Mike

      Dude, hold on. It’s more like mall ninjas turn to airsoft because nobody sane is going to sell them real guns than the other way.
      I have a quintessential mall ninja airsoft pistol and it’s so unwieldy it’s gathering dust while I use a lighter, handier one with less crap tacked to it.

  • KC

    I see the leaders of H&K in a position where Ruger was after the AWB

  • Kenny Blankenship

    I think the real reason is a combination of policy and business. If HK saw it as a profitable move to sell a version of the MP7 in the US, they would do it; profit usually trumps policy.

    HK may also have gotten spooked over the (totally ridiculous) negative press FN got over the 5.7mm as a “cop-killer”.

    Perhaps the costs of adapting the MP7 to an importable semi-auto pistol configuration outweigh the probably meager sales it would generate; there just is not a very big market for a big gas operated pistol that shoots another expensive proprietary round of questionable merit. It would compete with the FS90 which is already established on the market, and realistically this would almost certainly approach a 2k price point. Looking at the poor sales of the civi UMP, I bet HK just decided it wasn’t worth it.

    • Other Steve

      Poor sales of the UMP (actually USC) are being it is hideous, expensive to fix into a useful design, and very expensive.

      All things HK would repeat with a civ MP7.

      I hate to burst bubbles here, but this weapon’s sole appeal is that you can’t have it. This is a gun that you only THINK you want. If you say you really want this, you surely must already have a PS90 right? Seeing as the p90 is a more efficient design, holds more rounds, has a more common (albeit still 22mag-like) ammo, and cheaper than HKs would be. Oh, don’t own a ps90? Then shhh about really wanting an MP7 that you will never have.

      • W

        The P90 is a superior PDW in that regard and the 5.7×28 is superior to the HK 4.6 anyways.

        I think the P90 is better engineered.

  • Ben

    Fuck HK. Willing to sell their wares to Mexican Drug Cartels and any government regardless of how much they abuse their citizens, but the law abiding citizen is somehow ethically wrong. Screw em.

    • Clodboy

      Actually, H&K is pretty picky about who they sell to, since they have to worry about the (very liberal) German government and their export laws.

      A months ago H&K’s offices were actually raided by the German police following reports of H&K guns being found in Mexican civil war-plagued states that they are barred from exporting to because of the local authorities’ poor human rights record (although these guns were probably legally exported to the police force in Mexico city, who then distributed them to those states)

  • JD

    One of the many reasons I choose not to purchase HK firearms.

    • Mobious

      Because you can’t get a hold of them, lol

  • hacedeca

    “plenty of sporting uses”

    What? The MP7 was designed for armour piercing ammunition. This is cop killer stuff!

    A less potent ammo renders this weapon useless. And BTW squirrel hunting with a HK? Quite an expensive hobby…

    Wikipedia claims HK sold already an undisclosed number of this nifty little sidearm to some Arab states – not good…

    • bbmg

      Anything chambered for 223 remington will go through mostly body armour like butter, so that’s not an argument.

      The MP7 with stock folded is less than 2.5 inches shorter than the OA-9X series of pistols: http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/oa93.htm

      No doubt that if someone wanted to go through armour with a compact package, there already are plenty of options on the market.

    • RocketScientist

      As has been pointed out, just about any intermediate cartridge (many of which have pistols chambered for them) will penetrate typical aramid (Kevlar) ballistic armor, depending on exactly what level they are. Full-on rifle cartridges will definitely penetrate these, and many (higher powered) will even go through the much tougher solid ballistic plate. So if one’s intention was to have a ‘cop killer’ you could do so by spending a LOT less money on a gun, and shoot a much more readily available ammo. For instance: the bottle-necked 7.62×25 (Tokarev) round will punch right through a modern Kevlar helmet out a 4.5” pistol barrel. You can buy semi-auto pistols chambered for this round (TT-33 or its various com-bloc clones, CZ v52) for under $200, and have them mailed directly to your front porch (they are C&R eligible). If you need a little longer range/velocity, you can buy semi-auto versions of old Russian subguns chambered for this round at any milsurp gun store or gun show (and they make 71-round drum mags for them too).

      And as for ‘no sporting purpose’, you’re just an idiot. People use much more powerful rounds for hunting varmints and small game (not just squirrels, but rabbit, prairie dog, coyotes, etc) all the time already. Plus, crazy me, I consider TARGET SHOOTING as a sport (and the international Olympics committee tends to agree with me, judging by the medals handed out in shooting events). I’d like to you to explain to me why this gun is not suitable for shooting at paper. Are you suggesting it is not accurate enough to hit a target? Or that it is too weak to punch holes in paper? Or are you some hypocrite gun-owner who has swallowed the decades of gov’t kool-aid and actually believes that there are some guns that are just “too dangerous for those irresponsible civilians to own”?

      • hacedeca

        @rocket scientist

        “I’d like to you to explain to me why this gun is not suitable for shooting at paper.”

        I’m just a German citizen. Saw last week over the Internet TOP GEAR US – the flick where they drove from Portland to San Francisco.

        What a wonderful country I thought. Wanna drive there too, I thought.

        Checked the crime statistics for Portland: homicide rate 3 times higher than Berlin/Germany, my home town, one of the unsafest cities in Germany.

        So: No, don’t wanna drive there anymore. Even if I were packing heat… What if I mistake Skittles boy’s actions for a threat?

        And now you are asking me, what is wrong with AP weapons made in Germany for the American market?

        Well…

      • gunslinger

        first, to RS, i don’t see any reason why it’s not suitable for shooting at paper, unless the rounds won’t penetrate targets. and if that’s the case, well..

        @ hacedeca
        i think you contradicted yourself there. if america is unsafe..or to put another way, america is a place where the police aren’t able to save you from harm.. then what is wrong with citizens owning a weapon with the capability of protecting them from those murderers? i mean, if i live in that kind of area, i want something to back me up when i walk down the street..or heck, even just from my door to my car/garage.

    • إبليس

      Fried food, excessive caffeine consumption, and fast cars are big cop killers. Now the real question? Are you suggesting that Bloomberg-esque legislation is legitimate?

  • Andrew Racek

    Because we suck and HK hates us.

  • Justin

    “the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on”

    “In the wrong hands, that’s a bad day for the good guys.”

    “I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn’t want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either.”

    This is what Jerry Tsai is getting shit for. His words not HK’s. He also didn’t apologize he simply blamed HK. Just liberal logic. Obviously no understanding of the 2ND Amendment. Also did you really not expect an apology? Just a lame ass back pedal to try and salvage the magazine. SilencerCo/SWR already pulled their advertising and I bet others follow suit. Screw Recoil and JT.

  • Lal

    Why doesn’t FN sell semi-Auto only Minimi or MAG? I want one! Why doesn’t Ferrari sell the F1 car? I want one!
    HK can choose to make business with whomever they want (within legal limits). No need to be angry about that.

    • alannon

      You can buy F1 cars, just not at dealerships. As for the minimi, if there were a market for a bulky semi-auto rifle, I’m sure the Minimi and MAG would be on the civilian market.

    • RocketScientist

      Some are always gonna hate on H&K, and they may have some valid points to be angry about (the hypocritical attitude of a gun manufacturer willing to sell to govt’s with overtly corrupt police/military forces, but who claims it would be irresponsible to sell to civilians in a country with a long history of responsible civilian ownership of firearms kinda ticks me off). But I think what MOST people here are upset about is the apparent betrayal of the american firearms community by “one of our own”. Similar to how Bill Ruger (requiescat in pacem) made a lot of enemies and probably lost a lot of sales when he testified in congress in support of a ban on ‘high-capacity’ magazines back in the day. Seeing a firearms journalist who is ostensibly on ‘our side’ start spewing some of the same ridiculous and offensive rhetoric we’ve been hearing from the hoplophobe left such as:

      “the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on”

      understandably gets people upset. Loyalty is a big thing to myself, and to most I have met in the firearms community. It hurts when we feel one of our own ahs betrayed this.
      Some are always gonna hate on H&K, and they may have some valid points to be angry about (the hypocritical attitude of a gun manufacturer willing to sell to govt’s with overtly corrupt police/military forces, but who claims it would be irresponsible to sell to civilians in a country with a long history of responsible civilian ownership of firearms kinda ticks me off). But I think what MOST people here are upset about is the apparent betrayal of the american firearms community by “one of our own”. Similar to how Bill RUger

      • RocketScientist

        Sorry for the above, my computer had a hiccup… wish there was an edit option for our comments here.

    • Spade

      FN looked into making a semi auto M249 and M240 and simply found it too expensive to be worth it.

      You can see this in that the OOW M240-semi is $10k. FN looked at the cost versus the number of $10k+ firearms they would sell and decided it wasn’t sustainable.

      But they would if it was practical.

  • Brian P.

    Oh…is that what H&K thinks? I thought it was just because they wouldn’t be able to profit from it, or because of American import laws, or a combination of the two. But THIS is their reason for not selling it to us? Because there’s no “sporting purpose”? Because civilians shouldn’t have it? Well, FUCK YOU, H&K! I had dreamed of one day working for them, and possibly becoming one of their engineers, because I wanted to design new, improved firearms with the best, not just for the military and government, but for the PEOPLE too! If THIS is how they feel, then screw it. I’ll find another company to work with, and if I can, I’ll help them engineer and create guns that are FAR better than H&K’s.

    • Chrontius

      Because there’s no sporting purpose, the German government won’t let them export it. The follow-on effects of that law makes it eye-wateringly expensive to make a version for the US market.

      I think we’d be a little more sympathetic to H&K if they’d just come forward and *say that*, but I imagine the local government would make their lives interesting if they did so.

    • Chrontius

      PS, you probably would get to work on more-innovative guns with Kel-Tec than with H&K.

  • KC

    I do not accept the apology for one simple reason (and I quote):

    “Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. […] I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way.

    In this quote he did not say civilians are not responsible. He did not say we lack the judgment to own them. He said that the entire gun owning community knows the MP7 should never have be accessed by any lawful gun owners.

    He implies that we should have limited/no access to anything that can harm police officers. Did you know aggravated assault on police officer with deadly weapon includes cars? It’s the “assault weapon” argument all over again.

    • Esh325

      He said he was wrong and apologized. What do you want him to do? Get shot by a firing squad armed with MP7’s?

      • AnoSymun

        A firing squad of CIVILIANS with MP7s!

      • KC

        sstep down as editor is really the only thing he can do at this time.

      • W

        I can tell already that the firestorm has tarnished Recoil magazine and affected their advertising.

        Such a poor selection of words has come at a very severe price, rightfully so. American gun owners already have enough problems.

    • Esh325

      So you would pay his bills then?

    • Tim

      What about self defense? Frankly, for most people a weapon like the MP7 or P90 is much better than a pistol. Easier to shoot– lower recoil and more accurate than a pistol.

  • hunter thompson

    Read it for yourself.
    http://www.recoilweb.com/recoil-statement-16159.html
    That guy should go back to the import-car theatre and stay there.
    Sadly HK’s sales policy is dictated by the German government: yes to ‘friendly’ nations’ military and police forces, no to civilians.

  • mechamaster

    Aww.. Just change /upscale /downscale the caliber into 9x19mm para or .22 LR non-armor piercing, add more long barrel, and fixed stock, and it’s become a pistol carbine, and it’s become legal.

    • Other Steve

      I think an MP7 is 22lr with a 30 round mag and fixed up as a proper looking SBR would be the shit. I’d pay the tax stamp for that. But only a real deal and not some POS pot metal garbage.

    • Jay

      *cough* rmr-30 *cough*

  • Higgs

    I don’t see any issue with HK not selling it, nor am I offended by the “non sporting weapon” argument. I’m sure HK sees sporting rifles as a class that will sell, and the mp7 is a niche that won’t sell well because it isn’t a “sporting weapon” the little benefits it has would be rendered useless with US laws. Small size? 16in bbl will fix that. No stock? Great, a huge pistol with no stopping power.

    • Jeff

      Yeah, I have a feeling its just that HK doesn’t want to sell out its design, deal with the brady campaign and media going apeshit over another supposed “cop killer” round and see it become a novelty as a pistol/16″ rifle.

      I mean, chances are it’ll become one of those $2k guns that gun stores hang on the wall as a decoration (like the semi auto MG42s at my local gun store) , waiting for someone to happen to actually offer a price

      Anyways Silencerco has already pulled their ads from the magazine because of the article, stating that it doesn’t align with their beliefs. http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442

      • Nooky

        Kudos to Silencerco, integrity at its best.

    • KC

      honestly, their USC and SL8’s didn’t sell well here, for good reason, they were expensive and not exactly what the consumer really wanted.

      I anticipate that what H&K can export out of Germany, what configuration the US can import and cost of labor are all drastic factors in what can come to market.

      Other companies can overcome these issues various ways (opening an American factory, to produce full guns or 922r compliant parts stateside etc) but it’s obvious H&K finds these solutions undesirable

      • Chrontius

        Which is a shame — the USC is a pleasure to shoot.

  • Nmate

    I don’t see what the big deal would be if HK sold stockless MP7s or 16″ barreled stock models. People could SBR them, just like they do with the PS90. Personally, I’d rather HK just offer the model 94 again.

    • Frank

      If they were to want to sell a version with a stock they’d have to make a lot of the parts in the US, which as of now, they don’t make any parts for them here. If they did, or if US import laws were more lax like they were back up until the 80s, they probably would sell them on the civilian market. Like they did with the HK93 or the HK94. People really blow this stuff out of proportion. HK do sell the guns they can to US civilians, like their handguns and the MR556. So all and all, blame the ATF for changing their interpretation of the import rules in 89. Because back then, you could buy a civi G3 or Mp5.

  • Isaac

    I’m still waiting for H&K to offer a civilian G3, G36, and MP5. But of course, we know that will never happen. Because We suck and they hate us.

  • Brick

    I do not think, that this is a HK policy issue. IMO this is a “Kriegswaffenkontrollgesetz”-issue or “war-weapon-control-law”. Since the MP-7 uses small rifle ammunition, it would probably fall under this law( especially when given a longer barrel, which would be needed to make it legal for civilian use in the US). Making it hard to sell such a weapon at all, since HK would need to get a permit, which could be revoked at any time by the Bundestag. So why did HK specifically mention “sporting use”?

    “Sonstige Kriegswaffen [sind] 29 d)halbautomatische Gewehre mit Ausnahme derjenigen, die als Modell vor dem 2. September 1945 bei einer militärischen Streitkraft eingeführt worden sind, und der Jagd- und Sportgewehre”
    http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/krwaffkontrg/anlage_46.html

    “Other weapons of war [are] semi-automatic rifles with the exception of those [..] which are hunting and sporting rifles.”

    So this is the reason HK mentioned the sporting use. I find it rather unlikely that a permit would be given by the Bundestag to sell such a weapon to civilians in the US.
    So HK would have to develope a semi-automatic longer barreled version and would only know if it is a gigantic waste of money on the day they try to get the permit (which could then be revoked at any time). This is IMO not a risk HK is willing to take.

    • Branson

      So how did the the “real” HK91/93/94s make it out to the US pre-’89?

      • Lal

        That was 20 years ago. Laws change.

    • Avery

      Couldn’t you get around this by licensing?

  • Ian

    I see a lot of gun owner victimhood in these comments.

  • Jon

    I love HK and like Recoil. The magazine is really on to something – a gun mag for those of us who are can use the internet, are not retired, are not over 60, have kids and are not beholden to Dick Metcalf or the mill of PR fluff cranked out by Patrick Sweeney by the truckload. I applaud Tsai for trying to break the mold.
    Tsai’s comments suggest to me that he is a businessman and not a believer. The comments are suggestive of yet another California fairweather antigunner type who feels he should decide what I should be able to buy. I’m just calling it like I see it.
    As far as HK goes, I love their products and own many of their firearms. However, their customer service and marketing philosophy is crazy.
    Proposed new HK motto – “HK, we’re not happy unless you’re unhappy.”

  • alannon

    I have to admit that if HK doesn’t want to sell them to civvies, they’re welcome to. I don’t agree with them, but I don’t agree with a lot of people about a lot of things. Opinions and a-holes, you know?

    I just don’t like Jerry’s tone. I can think of several uses for such a round offhand; an MP7, even fixed-stock and extended-barrel, looks like it would make a dandy truck gun for knocking out nuisance animals (skunks, snakes, etc). Cost-effective? Dunno, it would depend on adoption of the ammunition and how much that would drive down cost. It’s the main reason I’ve thought about a Kel-Tec RMR-30.

  • DW

    Shooting itself is a sport. Nuff said.

  • charles222

    Sad, but not really surprising. The HK94 was the last sort-of-subgun HK offered to civilians; the UMPs never were as far as I know. So we’re talking what, late 1980s/early 1990s for the last weapon that any civilian MP7 would resemble being offered to civilians? I’m guessing H&K decided the market was just too limited. Which sucks for us, but makes sense for them.

  • Frank

    Really though, is this anymore dangerous than something like a Kel-Tec PLr-16? That has more energy at the muzzle and would penetrate deeper than the MP7 ever would.

    • Chrontius

      Well, it *might* be easier to control – less muzzle flip with that foregrip and a certain lack of recoil.

      On the other hand, the PLR-16 might get done in one shot what the MP7 could not — it’s at least hypothetically possible.

  • G3Ken

    I know this is a “gun” site and not a “political” one, but at times the two become so intertwined as to be inseparable. Thus, I detest the term “sporting purposes”. That’s right along with every clown politician who says “I have no problem with hunters. I hunted myself when I was a youngster”. Sure you did. If they held a gun, they’d surely crap themselves.

    Anyway, the Second Amendment has NOTHING to do with “sports” and every time we let someone get away with making such a statement without contradicting them, we are driving ourselves further down the road to gun bans. It must stop, and every single one of us who enjoys shooting must stand up and fight this, even at the risk of offending a friend, co-worker etc.

    This “sporting purpose” vernacular crept into being with the GCA of 1968. The traitors that signed it have all likely passed on or are in diapers (adult size, of course). This is an evil that must be met head on. Then maybe we can buy any firearm that catches our fancy, rather than using that pathetic term “civilian legal”. Last time I checked, it is the civilians who own the government, not the opposite. Man up and make the point.

  • Andrew Racek

    What are they afraid of anyways?

    People owning MP7s or the inevitable crushing defeat in the sales department due to its stereotypical H&K pricing?

  • gunslinger

    what was it, the Kriss vector rifle? that’s not “sporting” right? but a former coworker was going through to get one. but never stayed in touch to find out what ever came of it…

  • Lance

    Just like how they didn’t import HK-91-94s before any ban came and they sold a P.C. SL-8 instead of the G-36 to us. They bow down to anti-gunner too easily from those who own HK.

  • D

    I have no use for any restrictions on any firearm sales to the public. However, if H&K want’s to not sell their product to some given group, their welcome to not sell it, especially considering how expensive the ammo would probably be, and how little utility it would have for almost anyone.

    Pro-tip: the world does not need yet another bizarre, rare caliber of bullet. The one’s we’ve got work just fine.

    • Ray

      No one needs X or Y is one of the biggest fallacious arguments around. You don’t NEED a car that goes above 80mph but you’re more than able to purchase one. You don’t particularly NEED a big house with more rooms than you know what to do with but you’re more than welcome to.

      • W

        thats LIBERTY

        Cmon ray, youre preaching to a envious and anti-intellectual/anti-wealth next generation of america 😉 (not saying you are D, just reinforcing Ray’s point).

        I agree with D in the idea that HK DOESNT have to sell these to America. I know FN dealt with a lot of bullshit over “armor piercing” pistols when introducing the five seven and PS90.

  • John Doe

    Who needs a sporting purpose? FN doesn’t, since it offers the PS90. Or maybe the difference is that they don’t hate civilians.

  • Reverend Clint

    slap a fixed stock and longer barrel… nice little varmint gun

  • Sean

    H&K: Because you suck and we hate you.

    • Fluffy

      Haha, Larry Correia rocks =D !
      And I don’t care about the Mp7A1. I get the feeling it’s extremely underpowered.

  • Gumby

    Recalibre to pistol ammo (9×19 for example) would be out of the question? Although HK would need to basterdize it with weird stocks and long barrel though.

    • Juice

      Kinda what they did to the G36 platform when they made the SL8?

  • After reading this blog for so long, I was extremely saddened to see the above post and the way it mischaracterizes HK. Where, exactly, did HK state that it does not wish to sell these guns to the public? Other than a statement by the same moron who wrote the moronic article and the moronic rebuttal, what is the source for this claim? The only thing actually quoted is that HK does not want the guns to fall into the “wrong hands.” Taking that pair of words out of context and believing HK meant you, me, and other ordinary law-abiding citizens stretches reason past the breaking point.

    The guns that currently exist are not *legal* for them to sell to the public. That isn’t HK company policy, it’s U.S. law. Blaming HK for complying with the terms of their firearms license seems silly to me.

    Now, you can be upset that HK isn’t willing to spend the time & money to develop new models of every single .mil/CallofDuty gun they produce. But understand those decisions are based on business (and the need to comply with both German and U.S. small arms regulations). HK *has* tried marketing commercial versions of many of their .mil weapons in the past, from the SP89 to the SL8 to the MR556. The first two were commercially untenable. The last is still a question mark, as so many of the same people who lambasted HK for NOT making a “civilian 416″ now spend their time on the internet talking about how no one really needs a pistol gun for a semiauto 16” AR.

    Having spent quite a bit of time sitting down and talking to senior people at HK about their commercial business, I assure you that, like any for-profit company, development of product is driven by sales forecasts and margins. Anyone who honestly believes HK would rather make less money just because they “hate civilians” should probably reconsider whether he has the requisite IQ to operate a firearm safely in the first place.

    • “… talking about how no one really needs a pistol gun for a …”

      Sorry, meant PISTON gun. Can’t even blame that one on my spellchecker, darnit.

    • jdun1911

      I’ll bite. HK have been anti 2nd for God knows how long. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch called gun owners slimy. That’s pretty damning IMO on how they feel about civilian ownership.

      • Lal

        Do you misinterpret this statement on purpose?

      • Reverend Clint

        the only people he called slimy are criminals… unless YOU assume all gun owners are slimy?

    • They make semi-automatic versions already, the only thing needed to make it legal is adding a carbine length barrel and slightly changing the dimensions of a few internal parts to avoid it being able to converted to full auto.

      • The semiauto version, however, as it exists right now does not meet BATFE’s requirements because it is easily converted back to select-fire. The semi version wasn’t made for the civilian market, it was made for LE/mil agencies that simply wanted to prevent the rank and file from flipping a happy switch.

        If you understand what HK does in terms of design & testing to its products before releasing them, you know that the actual cost of making a new version of the gun with different barrel, furniture, and fire controls is not minor. It seems pretty reasonable to me that someone at HK looked at the market demand for a US-commercial-legal MP7 with 16″ barrel, fixed stock, etc. and said, “Not worth the investment.”

      • W

        they should release two variants: a carbine with a 16″ barrel and a “pistol” with no butt stock

    • Kestrel

      If they can make a faithful copy of their piston ar-15, exactly why did they totally bastardize the SL8 and USC with gimped, proprietary magwells and borked lower receivers that would not accept folding stocks like the G36 and UMP counterparts they are supposed to replicate? HK can B&M about profit margins with the SL8 but they need to understand they would have sold a whole lot more if they just gave the market the stupid semi-only G36 like it wanted in the first place.

  • tony

    FN said the same thing regarding their 5.7mm P90s. When revenue starts to hurt, they will come to the US market.

  • mblakely

    Move to Canada and you can have an MP7 for $11K; it even comes with two five round mags. Be thankful for what you can buy in this wonderful country America, and go build the SBR of your dreams once you have the proper paperwork.

  • Mike Knox

    No surprise there. The MP7 is what it’s made to be, a true PDW. The FN P90 on the other hand is a different story, it’s just a compact automatic like a repackaged minimi. For it to be a complete PDW, it has to be handled like a pistol or a sidearm, which were the first PDWs in the first place.

    Not a bigger surprise if regular civilians in the U.S.A. can’t have it. Just by the look of U.S. firearms laws and demographics, the only ones that can get there may have to be illegal. Hell, even the SP models are the only ones that offically and rarely reach Police hands and that as far as it goes.

    On another note, the MP7A1 is the only gun I’ve tried so far to use a real Trigger safety. Even the ones on glocks are just trigger retainers, it keeps the trigger from racking along the slide without it leaving the striker unlatched. They’re not real safeties..

    • John Doe

      I don’t see how the ability to be held in one hand qualifies it to be a ‘personal defense weapon’. Can’t the P90 be used for personal defense as well? It’s pretty compact. A shotgun can be used for self defense as well.

      I don’t see how the shape makes it a PDW. I don’t think that term is accurate. ‘Armor-piercing machine pistol/submachine gun’ is accurate.

      • Mike Knox

        @John Doe
        I said handled, as in completely operated by just one hand. All controls on an MP7 can be manipulated by at least just the firing hand. Except for loading in another magazine, everything else can be done with just one hand, even jacking the bolt carrier or extending the stock.

        It’s not the shape of the weapon but it’s use. The Idea of a PDW is being able to defend or otherwise with a weapon with the use of just one hand. Primarily for those who need the use of one hand at critical use while defending him/herself It’s basically the same or what started the idea of a secondary firearm since world war two. Ever since then everyone carries a sidearm for that reason.

        The MP7, PP-2000 or any Machine Pistol chambered in an armour piercing round fillfills the PDW role at best..

      • W

        The P90 can be VERY easily operated with one hand. FN engineered its design to be more controllable in automatic fire, which it is. It sounds like you have a preference for machine pistols; nothing wrong with that, though they have their own problems which would be exacerbated by a necked cartridge (heavier recoil resulting in less controllability, etc). A PDW does not, however, need to behave like a machine pistol; it is a hybrid between a carbine and a submachine gun.

        Im not sure how it is “like a repackaged minimi”. two entirely different beasts.

        The P90 is more or less just as much of a “PDW” than the MP7 is. The bottom ejection and top feed magazine are decisive advantages over the MP7, not to mention the operating system is very simple.

        It actually is a surprise that “regular civilians” in the USA cant have it. We have access to the Five seveN. We have access to the PS90. We have access to AR15 SBRs. Criminals using the MP7? not remotely. A weapon as expensive with as equally difficult to obtain ammunition is not going to be used by criminals, regardless of what the movies portray.

      • Mike Knox

        @W
        Really? Have even tried either guns?

        All controls in the MP7 can be reached by the firing hand’s trigger or middle finger and each lever tension’s lighter and smoother than a glock’s slide release. Even changing the magazine can be done with only the firing hand with support from either the holster or sling.

        The P90 however requires both hands when chambering a round, one at the thumb hole grip and one at the charging handle. Changing the magazine requires both hands as well, with the same hand on the grip and the free hand to release, remove, replace, and snap a magazine in. The Manual of arms on both weapons ary greatly. With the MP7, it’s easily comprehensible as a combination of both an AR’s and USP’s. The P90’s requires a different procedure completely.

        Brass checks? Another story. With the MP7, it can be done even without taking the muzzle off target. With the P90, you have to point it up to look into the ejection port, It’s even more awkward than with an AK.

        Now how about using either with night optics on your face..

      • W

        “Really? Have even tried either guns?”

        I have. I have a personal preference towards the P90.

        “All controls in the MP7 can be reached by the firing hand’s trigger or middle finger and each lever tension’s lighter and smoother than a glock’s slide release. Even changing the magazine can be done with only the firing hand with support from either the holster or sling.”

        The P90s can also be reached because of its disk-shaped safety, though Im not saying youre wrong about the MP7. In my opinion, the P90s charging handle can be easily manipulated also. As far as mag changes go, I strongly agree with you there. The P90 has a inherent disadvantage though its not impossible.

        “The P90 however requires both hands when chambering a round, one at the thumb hole grip and one at the charging handle. Changing the magazine requires both hands as well, with the same hand on the grip and the free hand to release, remove, replace, and snap a magazine in. The Manual of arms on both weapons ary greatly. With the MP7, it’s easily comprehensible as a combination of both an AR’s and USP’s. The P90′s requires a different procedure completely.”

        Eh, ill agree with you there. With its respective sling, the P90 can be charged easily with one hand though reloading does require two hands. I love the MP7s AR15-style charging handle.

        “Brass checks? Another story. With the MP7, it can be done even without taking the muzzle off target. With the P90, you have to point it up to look into the ejection port, It’s even more awkward than with an AK.”

        Good perspective and Ill agree. HK also did their homework with the ergonomics. The P90s bottom ejection comes at a price but i do like its ambidextrous design.

        “Now how about using either with night optics on your face..”

        Ill side with the P90. Though they’re both highly compact.

        I see what you mean by the MP7’s advantages though.

      • Mike Knox

        @W
        I have stong doubts about your reply..

      • Seamus

        W, criminals already use the 5.7 round. its not just a movie thing

      • W

        yes, i am aware that criminals use the 5.7

        The MP7 and the 4.6? no. its not impossible, though very, very unlikely. If it is in anybody’s hands, it will be in DEVGRU or the odd police agency (if any have adopted it at all).

        and you have doubts on my comments mike??? i agree with you for the most part, though i have opposition to your contention that the P90 is just a “compact automatic”.

      • Mike Knox

        @W
        At your reply you said you’ve tried either before but for the rest of it you’re only return comment is just preference, not experienced hands-on observation. Stiff ears in the air there..

  • Shilka-Gunluvr

    Oh they’ll sell it to us when they get tired of the Chinese or Russians selling cheap copies of it when they could be selling the real thing. I personally don’t like the design but it is a novelty gun just like the MP-5 or SPAS-12; no real world use but it looks cool in the movies or posing for a picture.

    • Shilka-Gunluvr

      I could swear that I read(Tom Clancy novel) there’s an MP-10 in use or on the drawing board.

      • Mike Knox

        Just wait for it and norinco’ll come out with a cheap and crappy MP7 clone or knock off, as they did with the MP5 and a whole lot of other guns everyone wants for a dime a dozen.

        The only real MP-10 I know is the B&T MP10. Which is an MP9 in 10mm Auto, a slightly larger version of the B&T MP40 in .40 S&W..

      • WoodenPlank

        He was referring to the MP5/10 that was developed for the FBI. HK made both the 5/10 (10mm) and 5/40 (.40 S&W).

      • Mike Knox

        @WoodenPlank
        You sure? Because the B&T’s has it a lot closer and I’m looking forward to getting one. I’m not sure the MP5-10 went under that name though..

      • W

        I think mike might be on the money. I havent heard of Brugger & Thormet making a 10mm variant, but im not saying its impossible either.

        Ah…the MP5/10. Like the UMP45, it is a bitch in full automatic. It wanders like a drunken gypsy.

      • Pete

        The FBI was the major impetus behind the MP5/10 back in the early 90’s – 20 years ago. This was when the Bureau issued S&W 4000-series boat anchors.

        Reportedly the MP5/10 weapon system is at the end of the support cycle and FBI SWAT teams long ago converted to M4s. They’ve been issuing 40 S&W Glocks to new agents for years and walked away from the 10mm.

  • TangledThorns

    I really like Recoil magazine and hope this can be salvaged somehow.

  • Karl Westinger

    C96 M712.
    Made in Oberndorf a. N.
    Stop whining and bashing.

  • TxDog

    Expect this sort of elitist attitude to increase. With the increasing “us versus them” mentality amongst law enforcement, federal agencies, and even the military and the jaundiced eye with which some within those communities view civilians (which I have heard referred to as “the barbarian hordes”), there will only be a stronger push to define what civilians are too “untrained” to use. The Reagan machine gun ban was the first step. Expect there to be more.

    • G3Ken

      Sorry to any LEOs out there, but I hate the term “civilian”. That applied when I was active duty military, others were civilians. LEOs are civil servants and would do very well to remember that. there are a LOT more of us and you might need our assistance one day. LEOs are just civilians wearing blue uniforms, and often “dress up” like they want to be SEALs. Sorry, you don’t fit the bill.

      • Craig Allen

        @G3Ken,
        1. i thank you for your services for this countries freedoms, democracies, & upholding it’s constitutions.
        i pray that we as americans never take the actions of our true heroes for granted, and as such, i also pray that such actions and sacrifices will never have been done in vain.
        2. i completely agree with your statements, a lot of entities severely underestimate the usefulness of us “civvies”. if i wanted to punch tiny holes thru armor, my .204 ruger rifle woul fit the bill, or i could stick shards of hardened tool-steel into my .22-250 or my .220 swift handloads for my bolt-action rifle. or maybe .17 cal. steel ball-bearings into my 3 1/2″ magnum 12 gauge. but of course, that wouldn’t be very “sporting” of me to do such things.

  • G

    “Varminters and wildcatters would go nuts for a new .17 caliber cartridge and within no time someone would begin producing bolt action rifles chambered in it.”

    Just like they went nuts for 17 Remington Fireball..

    BTW, it seems like Remington has discontinued all rifles in 17 Remington Fireball.

    • W

      Thats why the 5.7 is a very attractive option for killing coyotes and other critters.

      I think small necked cartridges are neat. I wish HK would provide another product to the market, but that is just me: the more options for the american gun owner, the better in my opinion. “the freer the market, the freer the people” modifies into the “freer the 2nd amendment, the freer the people” 😉

  • Alaskan

    In the movie “Stealth”,Jessica Biel has a MP7 as a sidearm…

    YT even has a clip..

  • Bill

    Just to stir the pot a bit, the editor’s username across multiple forums is “pacrimguru”, and he also owns valkyrie tactical (http://whois.domaintools.com/valkyrietactical.com). Might want to avoid buying things from there, if you are bothered by this.

    • somewhatnifty

      I think the lynch mobs have done quite enough damage to him actually.

  • JonathanF

    Setting HKs policies aside for a moment, I’m amazed that the Recoil guy didn’t just state that he was referring to the A1 variant (which he did), which of course is the select fire version and therefore the version that many would not wish civilians to have access to. He could then have stated that he was in favour of the semi-auto variant being marketed to civilians, and come out of this with less of a bad rep amongst gun people, and simply be toeing the current US (and other countries’) government line that full auto ist verboten for (most) civvies.

    • JonathanF

      No, wait, I’m an idiot. The A1 suffix doesn’t denote select-fire. I blame lack of sleep.

  • KM

    HK “Heil Klinton” . Pretty much. I think their leadership is incapable of comprehending private gun ownership

  • Mike Knox

    Long story short, when are muggers or petty criminals in the U.S. wearing a minimum of Type 2 Body Armour?

    • Free

      Your right I guess LEO’s don’t need them either.

  • Mr.Mike

    If you can shoot a paper target it’s
    a sporting gun. People get to hung up on “GUN LOOKS” all guns work
    the same way except size, weight, and capacity. You pull the trigger, round
    goes down range. Most people shoot responsibly and you can’t get caught up worrying
    about .001% that might do something stupid. We all have a right to have fun and
    the right to protect our self.

  • jake

    I think the reason why HK issued that statement because in Germany you only get guns for sporting purposes. As some of you may know Guns and Gun owner ship other then for sporting purposes is a very controversial topic in Germany