A “Chin Stock” for AR-15: No Shoulder Needed

Halix Innovations1 has developed a “chin stock” (for lack of a better phrase) called the NSN (No Shoulder Needed). It is designed for use with rifle-style pistols and regular pistols with carbine kits. Because it is not a shoulder stock, it can be used on a pistol with registering the pistol as a Short Barrelled Rifle.

I give the creators of this device 10/10 for innovation. It definitely is a clever idea. As far as practicality goes … just pay the $200 tax and build a real Short Barrelled Rifle.

Traumatic childhood experiences left me with a irrational fear of dentists, so any gadget that could damage my teeth (and so force me to visit the dentist) is going to have to be VERY useful before I purchase and use it 😉

[ Many thanks to everyone who sent this in. ]

  1. The Halix is a .co domain, but they are an US company (not Columbian). 

Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


  • Falcon

    This is nice for us states, like Illinois, where we can’t get SBR’s no matter what. No Class 3 anything here!

    • Conor

      SBRs aren’t class 3, they’re NFA items. Probably still illegal there though, sorry.

  • Chase

    This will be very popular in California, where the state government will not permit short-barreled rifles.

  • Proph

    Won’t work with my PLR16 unfortunately…

  • lol wut

    I just had a premonition… I sense many broken teeth in the near future…

    • 15yroldgunman

      Yah it’ll hav to be handled properly and can’t see the same accuracy comfort and ease of handling as a conventional stock

    • mark

      The real risk is damage to the very delicate joints between your jaw and skull (mandibles). They are near your ear and are very fragile. This is exactly the kind of force that can mess them up.

      I recently fractured one of my mandibles by falling on my chin, and now my face is shorter on one side and I have trouble eating. I can get surgery to repair it, but it carries risk of facial nerve damage, so I will just live with it.

      Please be careful with your very delicate face everybody! I agree with the author of the post: Just pay the $200. It’s a lot cheaper than facial deformity/reconstructive surgery.

    • Doug

      The force is strong with this one. 🙂

  • Giolli Joker

    Not suggested if your AR-15 Pistol is chambered in .50 Beowulf…

    • 6677

      Or one of those .50 BMG single shot uppers

  • Nathaniel

    Is this a joke?

  • Justin

    I dare someone to use it on a .458 SOCOM chambered AR, lol.

  • Darkness

    “We love this new invention!!!”
    Signed- The Dental Industry

  • Frank J

    Finally, a “jaw dropping” stock!

  • Reverend Clint

    almost makes me want to get an AR pistol… almost

  • DW

    I think it will work just fine on a Kriss SDP

  • Mobious

    I’m sure things will go well with a stock that needs to be applied to the face, quickly and repeatedly.

  • Kav

    This is fairly innovative, creative, and probably a brilliant way to circumvent restrictions on short barreled rifles.

    But holy damn does it look stupid.

    With my luck, probably stupid enough for CA state legislature to ban it, just like nunchucks and the shoulder things that go up.

  • zack991

    Sorry myself and my teeth say no thank you. I cant wait to read the stories of ATF (who cant make up their mind on anything) kicks in the door of people who bought this for having an illegal device. We all remember the BS they pulled on the businessman that created the first bump firing stock. They gave him the go ahead and after he had a product that was selling they changed their minds and was forced to close down. He lost millions.

  • Military School Cadet

    yeah only problem is you can’t dip tobacco when shooting with this thing

  • bbmg

    Makes you look like a muppet when firing 😀 Jim Henson would be proud!

    Why limit yourself to the chin? Why not graft a whole ballistic mask on to the thing?

    something like this: http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/17/52/44/22/ballis10.jpg

    At least it spreads the impact over a much wider area and you get some face protection to boot.

  • One other example: The short stock of the czech SMG Sa vz. 61 (better known as the “Škorpion”/”Scorpion”) is supposed to be “cheek-fired”. It’s hard to find any photos though (most pics in the web are from computer games).

    I’ve always found it rather uncomfortable, especially in full automatic.

    • Premek

      Well, to be fair, it was not intended to be held so by the factory, it just happens to be relatively easy way to hold it and not get showered (too much) with hot brass. However, it was .32acp (mostly), I really would not like to hold 9mm Makarov or 9×19 like that. Not to mention 5.56 with short barrel…

  • Nadnerbus

    For some reason the first thing I thought when I saw that was the Onion’s “Chrysler introduces new neck belts.”

    Just seems like a bad idea. Maybe they can just collect all the money people might spend on this item, and use it to lobby to repeal the stupid law.

    Clever work around, but still a bad idea.

  • jim

    i could see this on a pistol caliber carbine.. something with a lighter recoil.. and a redesign of the chin pad, into more of a chin cup to spread the actual recoil out over a larger area with a softer pad..

    it’d most likely be better to just pay the 200 bucks and SBR it..

  • Sam J

    Isn’t this an AOW?

    ATF says: the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand… and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)”… ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

    It seems to me that the ATF can use the same logic and say that this gun is not intended to be fired from one hand, nor is it intended to be fired from the shoulder. Therefore it’s an AOW and subject to the $200 manufacture tax and whatever state regulations you have on these.

  • Alex S

    The lengths we are going to…
    Can we just drop all the bull and have SBR, SBS, etc…

    • 032125

      We can “drop the bull” when our masters say so, and that hasn’t happened yet in the “land of the free”.

  • Doug

    We can’t have SBR’s here in Iowa either, but I still won’t buy into this thing.

    I first read about this on soldier systems. Some of the comments are from people in the dentist industry and they don’t recomend this product at all. Other comments stated that the product cost $250. So yes, you might as well get the $200 stamp and a $20 stock and you’d have better luck than this thing as well as come in under the cost of needing new jaws, teeth and gums.

  • Big Daddy

    TMJ anyone? This will screw up your jaw really bad unless you at least wear a mouth piece like a boxer or other sports.

  • rx386

    Damn … i can’t stop laughing; look at the face of this guy. That may cause several jaw trauma whit a prolonged use …

    (sorry for my novice english)

  • JonMac

    It already has a name – it’s called a cheek stock;


  • A.g.

    We could improve this : an horizontal stick with foam or rubber than the shooter will bite. An soldier oxygen optimizer stock this will be called. 470 $. You could pass orders now. Availlable for any .308 SBR too.

  • Sorry, that’s about the stupidest thing I’ve seen in a long time.

  • asdf

    Why are people suggesting to use this with an ar15 pistol in .50 beowulf or .458 socom, they shouldn’t be afraid to think a little bigger, I say go straight to the .50 bmg upper.

  • GUY

    KKKKKKKrist….learn to use a sling

    • David/Sharpie

      You’re talking about the technique where you push the gun forwards?

      That, or you could just put the buffer tube into your shoulder and USE it like a stock.

      • bigwhiteyeti

        A more practical solution for avoiding SBR laws would be to design a shoulder pad that the buffer tube can comfortably and securely rest against, while still being a (technically) separate component from the rifle.

        If anyone wants to try this, be my guest.

      • David/Sharpie

        Eh, I think if you made/bought a shoulder pad for it that it would count as a stock.

        I think a better idea would be to dip the buffer tube in rubber tool dip or put some neoprene/foam on it.

        Or maybe design a pad for your shoulder itself that “captures” the buffer tube and holds it next to/in or even on top of the shoulder.

        If I ever got a pistol like that, that’s what I’d do.

  • Chris

    Just get a 16in barrel and a real stock. Geez!!!

  • nick

    Stupid solution for a even more stupid law

  • tincankilla

    imagine shooting on the move with this when you trip, fall forward, and your muzzle hits the ground….

  • PCP

    I really don’t understad the current obsession with SBR and rifle pistols, they are inferior to a mid or standart lenght rifle in every single performance aspect short of concelement and CQC (but that is why collapsible and folding stocks and bullpups were invented).

    Since I’m not SWAT member, have a shotgun for home defense and ain’t going to be concealed carrying a rifle, if I ever built an AR for me I would never go shorter than a 16″ barrel even if it’s not a bench gun.

    • d.a.

      Capitalism would fall apart pretty quickly if people only bought necessary goods. SBRs and AR pistols are cool. Class them with sports cars and fancy clothes.

    • Chase

      I don’t get it either. I have always had sensitive ears, and I don’t like how loud short-barreled rifles are.

      But I don’t see too many problems with letting people have what they want, in this case. And this will make it easier for my fellow Californians to have their l33t CQB fake Mk. 18s, if they want.

    • Chortles

      Concealment and CQB utility aside, I would think akin to people choosing to buy subcompact pistols or full-sized pistols based on “feel”… which I don’t consider necessarily invalid.

  • RickH

    Actually for making money it’s a great idea. No matter what it is for an AR, someone will buy it.

    • LJK

      Until the class action lawsuits for broken jaws start rolling in.

  • Beefalo

    Meh…needs more rails.

  • Jeff

    Oh my…. and to think they call a M240 a jaw rattler….

  • NickB

    And kickstarter laughed at my idea of a groin stock, who’s laughing now HAHAHAH!

  • PT

    Many states do not allow SBR’s. This is the work around solution.

  • MrSatyre

    If it could be made to feed me Skittles with every recoil, I’d probably be interested. I only got started thinking along those lines ’cause it looks like he’s chewing with every shot.

  • Laserbait

    9 out of 10 dentists approve the use of this device!

    My Chiropractor would beat me with my own gun if I used this…

  • Martin M

    Bang. Bang. Bang.
    Nom Nom Nom…

  • So they’re headquartered in the District or did you mean ColOmbia?

  • Fred

    I bet if Apple came up with this idea, there would be a line of people, long enough to go around a few city blocks. The day of release and they would buy if for $900 and call it innovation!

  • Kosme

    As a dentistry student I think tis is a really stupid idea … The problem is not the teeth but the jaw joint … this would cause problems in the Temporomandibular joint wich is really unconfortable and hard (and expensive) to fix.

  • Reminds me of the Opti-Grab from “The Jerk” w/Steve Martin.

  • 6677

    He looks like a freaking idiot and it looks really really awkward to use, let alone the damage to your jaws and heaven forbid if someone was grating their teeth as they fired

  • Mike

    Jawbreakers: you’re doing it wrong.

  • gunslinger

    ouch on the teeth/jaw.

    but at 250, i guess it’d be cheaper to just get the tax stamp and get a real SBR. Unless you live in a place where you can’t have SBR.

    now i’m usually all for “new” inventions and stuff…but i just don’t see how this is practical for a “pistol setup”

    As for the AOW classification questions, IAMAL…but…
    somehow i don’t think that the AR15 Pistol is “meant” to be held at the front in a “normal” configuration. but putting a rail/front grip would change it to AOW.

    But it also seems that the feds can’t keep their mind straight on rulings so it does seem that they could come back and nix everything.

  • Alan

    I’d rather have a sixteen-inch barrel than a TMJ injury. I wouldn’t buy one of these even if I lived in Illinois. SBRs aren’t sufficiently useful to risk injuring yourself over.

  • GoldStarFather

    I really like this guy and I think he is on to something. He brought this product from an idea to a concept to a working prototype which is now his “proof of concept”. His product works, which is much more than any of the commentors here have ever done.

    We seem to be missing comments from those who have actually tried the product. Oh yeah, that was on the video…those people definitely went out of their way to portray themselves on public record as liars.

    So let me get this straight. No one will accept the word of an individual who has actually tried the product…even one with TMJ. Based on what you saw, you know for a fact that it will be bad for anyone using it. Even a dentist, who won’t tell you a thing about the problems in your mouth without an examination and an x-ray, has already declared it a hazzard. You talk about ridiculous!

    This is indicative of the same frame of mind and attitude that has kept the firearms industry decades behind other industries. I mean really…the most popular rifle is on a 50 year old platform (before there was manned space travel) and the most popular sidearm is on a 100 year old platform (before AM radio was available).

    How about we give this young man his due and move into the 21st Century?

    • JonathanF

      I have to say the naysaying is a little OTT – I posted a link to a wheellock sporting arm of the 17th century – cheek-stocks were the norm then for that type of gun. As a blackpowder weapon, the recoil was manageable with just the stock pressed into the cheek – no shouldering at all. A modern smokeless 5.56mm weapon shouldn’t present much more felt recoil.

      The only difference is in profile – the old cheek stocks conformed to the cheek – this is more like a partial shoulder stock, so the complaints about dental/tissue damage MIGHT be valid. A dished internal surface like the old guns ought to work just fine.

    • Kosme

      TMJ damage won’t show up on a X-ray, you need a ultrasonography 😉 You want to use this face stock?? Good, more money for us.
      I have nothing against this guy but his product can hurt people.

      • David/Sharpie

        Eh, my dads beat TMJ. It’s pretty simple, and cheap.

        If you don’t go to a regular dentist.

        My dad went to a Chinese doc and the guy put acupuncture needles in around his jaw line and hooked up a tens machine up to them and ran a current through. TMJ has never been a problem since.

      • GoldStarFather

        LOL! You have no concrete evidence or facts and you still diagnose? You completely missed the statement that most competent dentists won’t give anyone a diagnosis until after the exam and xray. But maybe you are different, maybe you can do it online from your office without ever seeing the patient. You just put your hand on the screen and “poof”, you know what the problem is. Again…ridiculous! It is way too easy to make ridiculous statements like that when hiding behind a screen name.

      • David/Sharpie

        Why did people vote down my comment?

        I guess personal experience is frowned upon……

        Go back under the bridge guys……

        And more down-voting…….GO!!

      • Mike Knox

        I’m wagering you don’t know this but TemporoMandibular Disorders are primarily under Orthopaedics, not Dentistry (except under extended/specialised training). Medical Professionals can make initial diagnoses even just by patient complaints and history. That’s even before examinations like Xrays, ultrasounds or tactile observations. I know this growing up in a family with medical backgrounds and in a medical environment, it’s basically my family’s buisness and history.

        What makes you even sure this concept is a step ahead in firearms? This contraption puts mechanical shock through a joint not intended to bear that force.

        Might I even ask if you’ve even tried this product and taken extended observations along with professional opinions?

      • GoldStarFather

        @Mike Knox

        I don’t know…I haven’t tried it…but I will give it the chance to be tested and then based on factual evidence (not conjecture/hearsay/assumption) determine if it is practical for me. You can make a hypothesis, you can even make a theory but making statements as fact without any evidence…is unprofessional! There is not any medical profession who will take the civil, criminal or social risk to make a statement of fact without evidence. As I said, it is very easy to make a statement as though it is fact when you are hiding behind a screen name. It is a lot different to put it on letterhead and sign your name to it. We don’t even know if this individual is a dentist! Geez! His opinion has no more weight in this matter than anyone else. Like I said, give this guy his due. He has earned the right to pursue this as a viable product and so far it seems as though he might have one, but time will tell. It will all come out in the wash.

    • Nathaniel

      Moving into the 21st Century involves unnecessary pain and fatigue?

    • johpal

      You mean the 21st century of repetitive headaches, neck spasms, and possibly deformed jaws? REPETITIVE STRESS again. I’m no Expert like you, but I’m assuming we have Shoulder Stocks for a reason. From: an inquiring Layman

  • MiamiC70

    The problem here is not weather it works or not it’s all the damn hoops law abiding citizens have to jump through to satisfy stupid ATF rules and laws.
    WTF, can I have an AR pistol but if I attach a stock it magically becomes a rifle? WTF, can i have a 14.5″ rifle and pit a FH and that is OK but if I don’t pin it it’s prison time? WTF, do I have to stamp collect and subject myself to all kinds of BS when I am a law abiding citizen of the US and the 2nd amendment specifically gives me the right to bear arms?

    We should all focus on the real problems and not the work arounds. I don’t know any legal full auto’s or SBR ever being used in a crime around here and even if they were the fault is with the person not the weapon.

    rant over.

    • David/Sharpie

      Actually, I’ve heard that there has been no crimes committed with a legal, civilian full auto.

      But that there was one rogue police officer who killed with his legal department issue full auto.

  • Mike Knox

    For those whose in the know in boxing or hand to hand combat, remember about hits or mechanical shock to the chin an esy way to get a knockout?

    • David/Sharpie

      I really doubt the AR recoil is strong enough to do that.

    • Mike Knox

      Just the same line of thought. Shock on bone just one joint from the braincase can leave effects, hard or soft..

    • johpal

      Has anyone heard of ‘Repetitive Stress’? Low-level stress doesn’t give much, but it does give alot over time. Like getting tapped with a small jewelers hammer hundreds of times. It will get you eventually.

  • tony

    No, thank you

  • Aof

    The question is… why?!?

  • Mike Knox

    As far as you put it, all you’re saying is just built on uncertainties and guesswork, not solid facts. Your composition even puts it in a clutter of guesses.

    What I’ve said is based on solid experience, knowledge and observations both about the unnecessary effect on the body through this dim contraption and how diagnoses are made.

    I’ve had the experience of the increase muzzle boost and recoil from a G36c only through cheek weld, no shoulder rest. But when that stock heel rested on my jaw angle, I had mild vertigo and little balance disorientation. The unit owner was a surgeon and a part time officer. He said that’s what you get from repetitive shock through the jaw..

    It’s kind of how jackass is popular..

    • GoldStarFather

      Of course, what was I thinking…you said it, so it must be true. Just forget about my science degree and the various published works that happen to have my name on them. I must be an absolute idiot. Too think that a young man who served his country, risked his life and survived, could ever come up with something new, that actually works and already has real positive feedback from actual users. That could never happen in America. Obviously, some don’t believe that it can happen in America. People who think they know and some who believe they know, but have no real live data on the product nor adhere to anything close to a scientific method, have already declared it a hazard and a failure. Wow! Now that can only happen in America, where free speech supercedes wisdom and knowledge. I believe in the American dream and I think this young man will figure it out and make it happen. Hopefully he won’t listen to any of these “so called experts”, but rely on the facts and evidence of his product testing whatever they may be.

      • gunslinger

        @gsf if you are so sure of yourself why not post the articles you have writen? Why hide behind a screenname? I mean you said it yourself. So why not man up and put your cards on the table and probe us all wrong!

      • GoldStarFather


        I have been seriously considering doing just that. Unfortunately, it won’t make a bit of difference. It would be a waste of time. Haters will always hate. I have realized that nothing I say or do will change that. I let this get out of hand and I take responsibility for that. I apologize for the behavior.

        I do find it encouraging that out of all those here that you could have asked that question to, you only asked me, the one individual who actually could do it. Gunslinger, you are very astute.

        As far as my screen name…well, it represents what I am…the father of an American soldier killed in action. Who I am and all that I have done pales in comparison to what my son did. I use that screen name to honor my son and all the other brave military men and women who lost their lives serving our country and for their loved ones who were left behind.

      • Mike Knox

        Really? A “science degree” and “pulished works”, with a reply composition worse than a third grader’s book report?

        One thing that sets my replies apart from yours is that I can relate and give examples with both firearms usage and physiological effects from it while your’s just bambles about with doubt and guesswork.

        Along with your unrelated gaggle about screen names, you can come up with whatever crap to put behind it. It’s no different from a paper plate mask, you can draw whatever you want on it, stick it to your face and make up stories of whoever you are. But it’s what you put out in action and speech that tell the truth. That last thing in your last reply may as well have been lifted from fox news or made up on the spot. Just check out on an earlier article about a glock lawsuit on a distributior on this blog. It shows how much anyone can make up stories and pretend who they are just for thread noteriety..

      • GoldStarFather

        Yes, Mr. Knox, you have overwhelmed us with your use of Google Search. Your inabililty to spell check before submitting your comments speaks volumes as to your literary acumen. Obviously, you don’t have a science degree so you then would have nothing to post from a science journal. So belly up bubba, wow us with one of your published works…oh, I am sorry…you already have, cause this is all you got.

        Your byline should be…

        I am not a weapons expert, but I play one online…

        Your comments about my screen name, pretty much sums up the person you are. To be so petty as to belittle the honor given to those who serve and die in our military, just for a snide retort? You are truly a piece of work. If you wish to match wits with me, please go and find yours because it is obvious that you have lost them. So until then, Mr. Knox… (but please do respond, everyone is expecting you to have the last word…I am sure they are all waiting with baited breath) LOL!!!

      • Mike Knox

        So in other words, you’ve gone all out with the personal attacks when you’re outed with hypocrisy with screen names. You even haven’t given proof about your “science degree” or “published works”. I should even ask what field your “degree” is in. So far you’ve already strayed off topic.

        So let’s see if that “degree” of yours holds water.

        As far as I can tell, you haven’t even commented on the practicalities about this contraption. You’ve only shown gullible interest fed by ignorance. Can you even explain how more “effecient” this product is compared to conventional stocks? As far as I can tell even without reaching into stock knowlege, this may even be less efficient than sling tension support on a stockless automatic..

      • Mike Knox

        Wow, Didn’t expect you to run out of hot air..

      • johpal

        Do you have a PHD in Dental Science?

  • I would certainly like to try shooting one of these. In fact, the earliest cheek-located long guns were hand gonnes which were modified to be fired from the cheek as early gunners found that it was more convenient to line guns towards the target that way. Also, the sighting would have been similar to a longbow, making these early guns easier to shoot.

    I’m speculating here, but I wonder, with much of the recoil (negligible in a 223, but heavier in the various hot rodded rounds that ARs are built for these days) absorbed by the shooter’s trigger hand that holds the pistol grip, how much of the recoil is really felt on the cheek? Several AR “pistols” minus the cheek “stock” have been built and are available for anyone who wants to buy them. If there is concern that the cheek stock might transfer energy to the shooter’s cheek, surely it could be angled away to move recoil away from the face and still offer a sighting plane similar to a conventional stocked rifle albeit in a smaller and much more compact gun? For the ability to aim a short and very compact gun better, the designer of this stock deserves support. It is a product that could be improved upon – if anything is currently wanting in its design. I wouldn’t rush to knock it and I wish the designers well. PErhaps, they could use their design to build a pistol caliber “carbine” to dispel worries that anyone might have about recoil damage to the teeth. The possibilities are intriguing . . .

  • derfel cadarn

    Designed by dentist with two or three in college. I am not nearly as cutting edge as the commandos at this sight can’t seem to see the problem this is a solution too.

  • Travis

    I’m just gonna be blunt: This is stupid and whoever designed it is a dumb@ss.

  • FLSTF808

    Well I like the idea, maybe a liitle more work and research may be needed, but he has a good idea and negative comments from a bunch of know it alls are probably just that. Beyond the 200.00 tax stamp there is the idea that this is not an NFA weapon and can be transferred without any federal paperwork, and carried into most states without an NFA hassle. so without trying one out I would say yes until proven outherwise.

  • Sam Suggs

    or just bye one of the “pistols” and put a stock on it, its nit hard you just dont stroe it that way and shoot it on your property or somewhere lacking in snitches