Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • BLG

    Wow, I’d love to see this here in more caliber offerings like .40s&w, 10mm, or .45acp! I’d be all over it! But, I guess it would have to be in pistol form in order to be imported.

    • Colin

      Going by the size of the mag-well compared to the mag itself, I’m guessing they might look at other calibres in the future.

    • AP

      I imagine in 40, it could be a useful home defense item. And I already have a forty pistol. Mod them to take a Glock 40 magazine, and I’d really have to consider how to fund the “mad money” account.

    • Brian in Seattle

      I don’t get that there are no carbines or PDWs in 10mm, with the exception of the special FBI-only MP5 in 10mm. What I would really love to see is an M1 carbine in 10mm. Or a KRISS. Or a Kel Tec Sub 2000.

  • Ray

    Anyone else think it looks like a Khyber Pass made rip off of the UMP?

    • Rusty Ray

      I would just like to point out that this Ray is not the same Ray that posted the above comment. That is all.

      Rusty Ray

  • Alex-mac

    Don’t understand why 9mm carbines should be really bulky.

    • Komrad

      The Kel-Tec SUB-2000 is pretty lean.
      I think this one appears bulkier than it is because of the rails and rather large magwell. Or, it might just be bulky.

  • Komrad

    *sigh
    I wish somebody would bring back the 7.62x25mm Tokarev in a little carbine/smg like this. It’s such a coll cartridge and it’s a shame it has fallen into disuse.

    • AP

      I’d buy something like that. I imagine it would have decent knockdown power for most of the little critters I’d have to deal with.

    • schizuki

      Agreed.

  • PeterB

    Where the hell are these legal in Europe? You can get five years for owning any firearm in the UK and licenses are only for shotguns and rifles (with massive restrictions on what rifles can be owned).

    • PeterB

      I should point out I’ve been interested in shooting for a while but the restrictions on firearms ownership in the UK (and Australia where I lived for a while) were such that I just gave up on the idea. I could have made the effort but it’s really difficult.

      Looking at going to the US this year so maybe I’ll get to try some shooting then but in the UK it’s significantly more trouble than it’s worth and I’d never want to break the law.

    • Noir

      Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Baltic states, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, France, probably Germany and Italy. Probably few more.
      You cannot judge Europe by UK. Its like judging USA by Washington D.C., California or by college gunfree zone.
      In some European countries you are even permited to carry such gun.

      • Clodboy

        I’d also like to point out that “harsh” gun laws do not necessarily follow the same criteria that they do in the US.

        For example, pump-action shotguns are rated class A in Austria, i.e. effectively off-limits to civilians.
        Auto-loaders and multi-barreled combo-guns featuring a mess of combinations of smoothbore shotgun, centerfire rifle and insert rimfire barrels, on the other hand, are perfectly legal for civilian purposes.

      • PeterB

        The Isle of Man? I had no idea.

        Thanks, I guess not everywhere is as restrictive as the UK. The people who run this place (and I don’t just mean politicians) really don’t trust the people here.

    • TATim

      I’ve never really felt that restricted buying a rifle in the UK, the hoops you have to jump through can be a bit of a pain but I’ve always managed to get what I needed. Getting a shotgun certificate is even easier.

    • Aurelien

      In France you can own that kind of hardware as long as it’s semi-auto and you have the proper paperwork (and that you register it with the proper autorities).
      There are plenty of semi-auto TP9 and MP5Ks around in the market.
      Pretty nice to own when your local range does not allow full power rifle ammo.

  • Pistol caliber carbines are fun, inexpensive to shoot, and easy on new shooters or ones with physical problems. But for over a 1k, you could nearly get two entry level ARs or mini-14s or 2 good AKs. Just seems like there isn’t much value in market for 9mm carbines.

    • Matt

      Sub-2000s go for $350 at my local gun store (when they can keep them in stock, of course). I understand that you might be referring to subgun-styled semiauto firearms like the APC, but the vast majority of pistol carbines used by civilians are quite cheap (and effective, to boot)! Where are you getting your prices from?

      • Well, this APC9 and say MP5 clones, 9mm AR-15s, and the like are generally over or close to 1k. Even the Beretta Storm is going for well over $700 these days. In the 500 range sits the Mac-10 carbines and frankly they have the ergos of engine block. After that comes the Kel-tec and the Hi point both are inexpensive, but I don’t trust either company much.

        Lever action pistol caliber carbines are much the same story for cost. They’re starting out past 450 generally, while full 30-30s are considerably less.

    • ben

      There are no ARs worth having in the 500$ range, trust me. Your correct about AKs but understand its a false economy. AKs are cheaper because the parts kits are cheap. US made AKs go for 1k and up. 1k for an gun requiring expensive plastic molds really isn’t bad.

      Am I the only one who noticed this looks very much like a HK UMP?

  • Jon

    Obvious copy of the H&K UMP/USC design. Grip, barrel design, trigger group, pic rails, mag well, safety and stock all obviously “inspired” by H&K. I don’t feel bad when someone copies a H&K design because H&K limits sales to civilians.

    • Aurelien

      The APC is about 70% of the size of the HK UMP9. Way shorter.
      It’s about between MP5K-PDW and UMP9.

    • Tinkerer

      I wouldn’t call it a “copy” per se. It’s more a thing of how different can one make a semiauto carbine of traditional layout and side folding stock.

      As for the looks: that stock is pretty standard -most polymer skeletonized side-folders look the same or very similar-, the upper receiver looks like it’s extruded -and reminds me a lot of the FN SCAR-, I see the lower receiver and I can’t helpo but think of a polymer AR-15 lower -minus buffer tube-, etc.

      If one looks closely, one can find that certain features repeat themselves on different firearms all the time. Like the AR-15’s buffer tube in the stock, which whispers to me “FN FAL”. Not exactly the same thing, but there’s an air to it.

  • Sian

    Looks like a shrunken UMP, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    Wish that the inside of the .223 sized magwell was fluted/channeled instead of just flat on the bottom, imagine how much easier reloads would be!

  • West

    It pains me to see cool guns like this stuck in S/A mode.

    Its like a Formula One car with a restrictor plate or a swimsuit model wearing…well.. a swimsuit.

    • Aurelien

      In most European countries, you can own this kind of weapon only if it is S/A.
      The military/LE version is full auto of course.

  • Spade

    Is that a TMP/TP-9 magazine?

    • Other Steve

      Yes, it looks exactly like it. Could be differences in the trimming, but it’s definitely the same body.

    • Aurelien

      It is.

  • micah

    Looks like a SCAR 16 and a UMP had a baby.

  • Rangefinder

    Is that rust in the barrel? Someone has some esplaining to do.

    • curt

      that looks more like copper fouling to me but I’m no expert.

    • jdun1911

      That’s how all barrel look when you shoot it. Copper deposit.

  • David

    Available in Canuckistan too…(Canada)

  • hikerguy

    The magazine well looks long enough to possibly fit PDW rounds like the 5.7 and 4.6.

  • JM

    Looks a little short to be non-NFR…

    • Abram

      Do you mean NFA? Or did you combine two loathesome ideas, NFA and NPR, into one acronym?

      • Llew

        Why you gotta be hatin’ on cartalk?

  • Other Steve

    I can see a few interesting things…

    Yea, as someone else noted they definitely appear to be TP9/MP9 mags. The mag well does appear to be able to fit larger mags, but DOES NOT. That is, look at the picture showing the magwell from the bottom. It’s solid. This to me means that there will likely be interchangeable lowers (the upper is the firearm) to this gun. It would appear that they would probably all share the outer dimensions. This being odd to me because if they had a 5.7 or 4.6 mag and round, the gun set up for that would from the outside appear identical to the 9mm version. I would make the outer shape different if it were me, but it’s not. I’m sure they had a reason. Most likely that they just cut the same lower for the two options, lowers cost of two unique lower tooling.

    Along those lines, it appears to be interchangeable barrels. I looks to me like the 3 of the 4 trox screws are right where the chamber/trunnion would be. I would be shocked if this was not possible in this gun. Appears to be very modular.

    Next, if they are interchangeable barrels, I am suspecting a blowback action. I would have said this is a set back from the TP9’s delayed rotating barrel/bolt but after suppressing mine, I must say, sometimes blowback is a lot easier and probably more likely to work better suppressed.

    B&T are using their MP5 folder quite obviously.

    It’s awesome that 3-lug makes a return!

    Extruded upper receiver.

    The built in folding BUIS are cool, but I suspect this gun is entirely designed for optics use as a primary.

    The bolt shared the TP9/MP9’s feature where a 9mm case is used to aid in assembly and malfunctions.

    The charging handle obviously switches sides. Making this an entirely Ambi gun.

    Basically, this gun appears to be a great combination of TP9, Uzi, and MP5-K. My guess is lighter and smaller than the Uzi and MP5K, and WAY cheaper to make than the TP9, simpler action too. The best compact 9mm subgun I can think of at a time when everyone is abandoning them.

    If we can get them in the USA, I’ll sell my TP9.

  • Joshua

    I haven’t figured out why, but I have a fondness for SMGs and pistol carbines. I wish someone made carbine 9mm (or any other pistol ammo), loaded with a slower burning powder and more of it, with lightweight pointy bullets. If I ever get into reloading that’ll be one of the first things I do, test to see what kind of performance I can get out of my Sub2000 with optimized ammo.

    From the sounds of it, this gun is pricey, which pretty much defeats the entire purpose of the SMG (compact, cheap, and easy to build) that made SMGs so prominent through WWII.

  • Charlie

    Komrad: I bought a PPSH-41 clone on line a couple of years ago. Check out the internet. The PPSH-42 is also available.
    http://www.ioinc.us/our-products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=20&category_id=1

    The ammo (7.62×25 ) is corrosive but no biggie if you clean at the range and then more thoroughly when you get home. Although if you want to stick with the 9mm, I just picked up a Hi-Point carbine (old style) for $189. Can’t beat the price and I love the “Planet of the Apes” style stock. If you’re concerned about looking cool, you can dress it up like a Berertta Storm and no one will be the wiser if they don’t look too close. Both are fun plinkers and pretty good for home defense as well. Only 10 round mags for the Hi-Point however. Magpul makes a 15 round magazine for the Hi-Point but most users find them unreliable.

  • Lance

    Make me wish HK94s where still imported.

  • hikerguy

    After looking at the B&T website I discovered there is or soon will be an APC in .45 for those who fancy the caliber. This could explain the size of the mag well area, but then again maybe not. I cannot tell from the pictures if the entire design would need to be larger for .45 or not.

  • Charlie

    Roadkill: I can’t speak for the Kel-Tec carbines, but I’ve got 3 Hi-Points and never had a problem. I’ve read lots of bad reviews of the Hi-Point hand guns but never seen a bad one on the carbines. They all shoot +P ammo have a transferable life time guarantee and are made in the USA.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=chuck%20hawks%20hi-point%20carbine&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chuckhawks.com%2Fhi-point_carbine.htm&ei=IcdRT76PA4G_gAff3InbDQ&usg=AFQjCNH0QJMb1Ifd1bEi2_GOR6yjJcKKcw

    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.gunblast.com/HiPoint-9mmCarbine.htm&sa=U&ei=PslRT-gHkLa3B4jFrMEN&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHIM-xKIAAU5taIbfEznyhB1mHtlA

  • charles222

    I’m not sure you can call the MP5/10 a submachine gun with a straight face; I’ve seen a number of sites claiming +200m maximum effective range. That’s waaay beyond any other SMG I’m aware of.

    • Noir

      9mm Beretta 1938 was used at ~300m ranges during ww2…
      9mm bullet retains about 200J at this distance, thats more than enough to kill or wound.

  • Netforce

    B&T is real fun to shoot.

  • Very neat blog article.Much thanks again. Want more.

  • the other other steve

    I had a question. My brother is a Sheriff in the Houston area and is selling this weapon to me, the only thing is I live in California and I am not sure if this weapon is legal here in my home state. Does anyone know if it is? Please any information would be greatly appreciated.

    • mcruz

      I believe that California uploads a list of “acceptable” firearms that are able to be owned. You may have to install a bullet button on the gun to comply. I live in AZ so I may not be 100% correct. What firearm is it?