KRISS Vector Review
NOTE: To get up-to-date pricing on 45 ACP ammunition, please click this link to visit Guns For Sale: 45 ACP Ammo
The KRISS Vector is one of the most interesting and innovative weapons I’ve used in a very long time. I have been very impressed with the design, ergonomics as well as the lack of noticeable recoil. This is an impressive design to say the least.
This weapon system has been several years in the making. Since the first prototype the company has tweaked the design several times until they had it completed to the companies satisfaction. The Vector is primarily aimed at the military and police market. The carbine version has also become popular with civilians since it’s release to that market.
There are several models available. I obtained the standard carbine semi-auto for this review. Other types are the SBR with a 5.5 inch barrel in semi-auto or in the (Special Operations) SMG configuration also with a 5.5 inch barrel. All models with the 5.5-barrel can be fitted with the KRISS suppressor. Of course a federal tax stamp and background check are needed for the 5.5-inch barrel and/or suppressor.
My test carbine has a 16.5-inch barrel with a folding/removable stock. The barrel comes standard with a full barrel shroud, which gives it a pretty intimidating look. If you didn’t know better you would think it was a suppressor☺ The stock is adjustable in length to accommodate the individual shooter. Using a set of included hex wrenches two inches can be added or removed from the stock length. A push button just to the rear of the ambidextrous safety allows the stock to fold and lock to the right side of the carbine.
There are two versions of the semi-auto carbine. The plain model comes with BUIS sights mounted on the upper Picatinny rail. A vertical grip is also fitted on the lower rail. This grip is hollow allowing the owner to store batteries etc. Each side has a removable portion for mounting a tape switch for a laser or flashlight. Just above the barrel a plug is inserted which can be removed allowing the mounting of the Surefire Executive series flashlights among others. Positioning the light here allows the flashlight to aid in aiming since it rides directly over the centerline of the barrel.
The Vector is chambered in .45ACP. The magazines are Glock model 21’s with a standard 14 round capacity. An adapter is available increasing the capacity to 30 rounds.
The deluxe model comes with an EoTech 511 with a mounted Surefire E1B 80 lumen light. A sling and mount is also included as is the GripPod for greater stability in the prone position. MSRP for the standard carbine is $1889.00 with the Tac Pac the price is $2779.00.
The reviewed carbine is the heaviest configuration weighing in at only 5.8 pounds! Overall length with an open stock is 34.8 inches. When folded it comes in at 26.5 inches. That makes this a very fast handling weapon in tight spaces. Even more impressive is the SBR/SO (sub machine gun special operations) with a length of 16.25 inches with the stock folded. Refer to the specifications below for the SBR/SO. These stats are on the far right side of the table.
In the photo above you can see the primary operating controls. On the top left is the charging handle which folds out from the frame. Just under the charging handle to the right is the bolt release. Just under this is the magazine release located on the upper front of the receiver.
The illustration below shows how this innovative action operates to mitigate what minor felt recoil there is. The bolt is depicted in blue as it begins to move to the rear out of battery. The assembly, which holds the bolt and recoil spring, is depicted in green and shows the three stages of operation. The green assembly rides on dual rails milled into the sides of the receiver guiding the bolt as well. From complete compression the mechanism moves up under spring pressure canting the bolt 90 degrees and back into battery to fire the next round. As you can see the recoil forces are directed down rather than to the rear as most common carbines operate.
Takedown is very simple and can be completed in short order by removing four pins. The first two pins are at the base of the receiver allowing the operator to remove the bolt, recoil guide and spring. The two pins in the upper allows removal of the top half of the receiver. That’s really all there is to it. This is all that is required for easy access to all areas for cleaning. Reassembly takes replacement of these four pins and can be completed in less than a minute.
Range Time
After watching the demo of the KRISS compared to the HK UMP 45 I was a bit skeptical concerning the difference in recoil between these two fine weapons. The video comparison showed the H&K to have greater than 8 degrees of muzzle climb on semi auto compared to less than 2 degrees with the Vector. I was about to find out they are correct about the Vectors recoil.
I made two trips to the range firing a total of 300 rounds of ball and 60 rounds of hollowpoint ammo. I used CCI Blazer, Federal and Winchester white box in 230 grain ball as well as 60 rounds of Magtech hollowpoints.
I used two different sights. The first was my EoTech 516 with the second a Vortex red dot. Of course both sights worked well and co-witnessed with the iron sights without a problem.
The only problem I experienced was shooting some Wolf ammo I had on hand. The company does not advise using Wolf ammo with good reason. The rounds just don’t have the punch to cycle the action causing a few failures to eject. If you’ve ever shot this brand of ammunition you probably noticed it’s pretty slow compared to say Federal 230 grain ball. After firing a few rounds I saved the rest for another day and another gun☺ There were no malfunctions of any kind with the other brands of ammunition. I used the 14 round magazine provided with the gun.
The Vector has a large ejection port allowing the shooter to quickly clear any malfunctions.
I fired a couple of mags to get used to the feel of the trigger after which I moved back to 25 yards then 50 yards. The target below shows the results of one magazine of 14 rounds fired from a rest at 25 yards. The group below that was fired from 50 yards from a rest. The 50 yard group was a total of 3 magazines fired. The first round fired from 50 yards I pushed which was totally my fault. As you can tell from this target this carbine is accurate.
Unlike the first target I fired the target below from 20 yards firing as fast as I could reacquire a flash sight picture. Not to bad for burning through two magazines that fast.
Overall through both range sessions I was very pleased with the results. What impressed me the most besides the practical accuracy at speed was the lack of recoil and muzzle rise. I would never be able to shoot groups like this at the speed I was firing with an AR or an HK UMP.
Conclusion
There are several advantages this weapon has over others of it’s size and caliber not the least of which is the light weight, ease of maneuver and the ability to make repeat shots quickly and accurately. This is a real plus for those engaged in clearing buildings or operating in built up areas where repeated hits on target are very likely compared to other weapon systems.
The 45 ACP is a proven round with excellent stopping power. The only downside for the military user is more and more of the bad guys are wearing body armor. This is why some special ops units are training to shoot across the pelvic girdle then across the shoulders just above where body armor protection ends.
Even police officers are encountering suspects wearing body armor. It’s rare but it has happened. This is why my old unit dropped the HK MP5 in favor of the FN P-90.
On the other hand this carbine is a weapon primarily made for the civilian shooter. For the average shooter this carbine would work well for home defense or just about any other need outside of long distance shooting.
This is just one enjoyable gun to shoot. The innovative design certainly makes it a 21st century weapon. With all the available configurations there should be one of these that would serve you well.
With the comments concerning the safety I thought I would add two pictures so those with older models can see the improvement in the safety position and length of throw.
Phil,
I got a chance to shoot a rental Kriss SMG this morning. Whoo boy was it a blast. 2 rd burst is sooo manageable. Surprisingly the SMG in Semi felt like there was more recoil than my carbine. Also the SMG has the new updated Safety Selector. I gotta say I didnt like the lack of “F” and “S”
The new one is either a red dot, or it covers up the red dot. I was a little confused.
But other than that, the SMG is a MUST to shoot.
Here is the video from the FA SMG shoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy3NSVDRGig
Nick,
Nice video that gives others a chance to see the rate of fire and recoil.
Thanks. Yeah I dont think I have seen any POV videos of the SMG firing. I tried to get as much done as possible to cover all the basics of the Kriss SMG. Semi-auto shots, 2 rd burst, one handed operation, and of course full auto.
I didnt get a chance to get fully acquainted with the updated safety selector. I ended up resorting to my training and practice. I used my right index finger rather than my thumb. I was too eager to shoot the Kriss that I forgot to run my SureFire Shot Timer. I wanted to see if the Shot Timer could pick up the full auto bursts.
Nick,
Hum, I don’t know if that model will pickup the full auto burst or not. It most likely will–maybe next time:-)
Nick,
I bet that was hard to put down. Did you spend your life savings on ammo:-) On auto there seems to be an effect from the recoil mechanism that makes it seem like a bit more recoil than the carbine. I’m sure they can explain it but I noticed the same thing. You can sure fire fairly small groups once you fire a mag and get used to it. It could be we are so used to semi auto it was a bit of a surprise:-) Glad you had the chance to shoot the SMG! If the red dot shows it’s on fire covered it’s safe.
Actually, I dont know if it was a mistake or they cut me a deal. The gun was $30 rental for the gun. Then on the phone they said each mag was $25. But when they rang me up it was a total of $60 for the Kriss SMG, 2x mags, target and earpro for my wife.
I knew I would need at least two mags to really test drive the Kriss. One magazine worth is not nearly enough. Full Auto is too quick and I really wanted to test out 2 rd burst.
Nick,
That’s high price but worth it to get that experience.The nearest range for me charges $28 per hour range time plus $15 for a standard gun rental. Bring your own ammo as long as it’s not steel cases which is forbidden.
The 9MM SMG’s are $40 per hour. Being in the Midwest we are a bit less expensive.
I’m still waiting for the KRISS KARD
Phil, one thing I have never seen on a weapon review is how it handles for left-handed shooters. I remember picking one of these up, and how hard it is for a left-handed shooter to operate it.
Could you please do a short review when operating it left-handed? There are more and more left-handed people shooting. It would be nice to be able to read a review with this information.
That said, please keep up the good work doing in-depth reviews.
Dogzard,
I hope my experience may enlighten you. As I have mentioned a few times here, I own a Kriss Carbine. Recently I have gotten more into shooting action targets and got a chance to shoot left side. I was told that i dont have to but I want to challenge myself and learn new skills. Here is what I learned about shooting the Kriss on the left side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSPi0RinZfc
The issues that I realized after this stage is how to handle my reloads. I gave it some thought and I can reload while keeping my firing hand on fire control. This will take practice as it is an alien feeling for me. im not used to it.
But here are the steps
1. I reach back with my right hand to press the mag release with my index finger.
2. I roll the kriss over to the left so the operating handle is at the 6 o’clock postion. I reach under (blind) to pull the charging handle back. My right thumb is in the perfect position to press the bolt catch and lock the bolt back.
3. I reach to my left side, where I keep my spare mags, grab the mag and rotate it to insert into the Kriss.
4. Reach the magwell and press the bolt release.
5. Roll the kriss back down and back to shooting.
Think of it like a mirror version of operating an AK47 charging handle while being right handed. The left hand reaches under and pulls the charging handle back.
Other than practicing that to being proficient, shooting the kriss shoots just fine left handed. At least from my experience.
Tell me when they come in 9mm, I’m not drowning in .45 kool-aid.
MarcW,
I think the reason for the 45 was the many choices of weapons available in 9MM. That’s just a guess really. The 40 may have been a good idea but it appears to have been dropped. Still with this system the 45 is a good choice. It’s not so much drinking the 45 Kool Aid as having seen first hand what a 45 ACP will do to a human being.
Still bullet placement is the real deciding factor in pistol rounds especially. That’s what interest me so much about the Vector you can place multiple shots where you want them quickly.
How is this better than a $250 SKS with a 25 or 30 round mag using the 7.62×39 round? If the 20″ barrel is too long for you, cut it down or make as many changes as you want for a fraction of the price. The .45 ACP is a good cartridge but it’s stopping power pails in comparison to a most 30 caliber rifle rounds. The 5′ barrel is even more ludicrous. Even the cuddly .30-30 will defeat a vest. But if you are absolutely in love with the .45 ACP, get a HI-Point .45 carbine with after market magazines, again for the fraction of the price. It only comes in black if you feel the necessity of a “black gun.” I am of course only speaking of home defense which the vast majority of the readers should be interested in rather than fantasizing about fighting in Afghanistan (God bless those that do). Of course, I only use my p-90′s when fighting Gao’uld on some alien planet; but even then a .308 or .30-06 would be far superior. By my count, it takes about 25 rounds per Gao’uld, still much better than the 5.53 varmint round in VietNam.
Charlie,
A rifle is always preferable to a handgun if the situation allows it no doubt about it. The Vector design with a 5.5 inch barrel is a very useful tool in the right situation which will most always be in military or police use. The carbine would make a fine home defense weapon with the right ammunition. This is especially true if you live in an area with homes close together. You don’t want to fire an SKS through several walls and into the neighbors house.
I have immense respect for the technology and engineering of the Vector. As the first radical innovation in small arms for the first time in 100 years, I hope it begins a trend towards more unique and reliable small arms designs. In regards to the saboted ammunition in read on here somewhere, I wish there was more information on the Swedish CMJ-MS and its caliber. This weapon has intrigued me since i first heard about it.
I also cannot wait to hear more information about Kriss’ 50 caliber machine gun development program. They have been really tight lipped about it.
W,
The design is very innovative. When you separate the upper from the lower all you have up top is the hammer mechanism and trigger mechanism. In the lower all there is can be seen in the illustration—the bolt and recoil system. The first time I disassembled it I thought is this all there is and it works this well! Very simple which means reliable in most cases. It breaks down faster than any gun I’ve used with the exception of the Glock pistols.
They have been very tight lipped about upcoming products. Some of these are to be unveiled at the SHOT show.
I was also very impressed with the P90′s design. the simple bolt design, dual recoil springs, and bottom ejection are spot on.
I have zero experience with the vector, though hopefully will remedy that soon.
W,
They both have positives and negatives when compared but I’m sure you’ll enjoy using the KRISS. It’s a little longer of course and the way you hold it is certainly different. I believe the KRISS is a bit more stable when firing since with the P-90 both hands are far forward.
I’d sure be interested to hear what you think after you compare them.
Great review Phil! I’ve always liked the kriss just wish they would make a 9mm version.
I would really like to see this design adapted to a rifle cartridge.
Matt,
I think a good number of us would like to see a rifle round chambered KRISS. I know I’m one of them. They thought about a 9MM and a 40 cal but it never happened. In fact they advertised a 40 cal then it just went away.
Thanks Matt glad you liked it!
If the technology continues to evolve and develop into something superior than conventional designs, i am excited to see further variants. A rifle-caliber weapon using this mechanism is intriguing to say the lease.
W,
It is intriguing and I can’t help but believe they have considered it.
I don’t know what it is,but every time I see the TDI Vector,I think “Glock with a fancy aftermarket stock kit..”
If I didn’t have my M1 Carbine for home defense,I’d switch to a pistol.
Have you done a review of the Kel-Tech pistol caliber carbine?
Alaskan,
No sir I never have. I’ve been trying to get in line to review the KSG though.
Alaskan and Phil,
I own a Kriss Super V. And I love it. I also own a Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 40 s&w. How do they compare? well it is tough to say. I mean its like comparing an Automatic Rolex GMT-Master to a Citizen GMT. One costs a couple thousand dollars and the other is a couple hundred dollars. Both are pistol caliber and they both use Glock mags. The Kriss has the felt recoil and muzzle climb reducing Super V system. The SUB2K can fold in half.
The charging handle of the Sub2K is awkward. But with practice you can get proficient. Kriss Charging handle is quick and short, Sub2K is long and tough.
Sub2K is not pleasant to shoot in the cold as your cheeking a bare metal tube. Also the rear sight is so short that you really have to bury down onto the buffer tube to get a decent sight picture. I often got bit on the cheek shooting the SUB2K. Also the factory stock is NOT pleasant but downright uncomfortable and punches you in the shoulder. I have modified my Sub2K with a M4 stock and rails for red dot to relieve being behind the irons. It is nice that it folds but the Kriss feels more solid and better built. Sub2K barrels have been known to come loose because they are only loctite to the reciever. Some owners have sent them back to be properly pinned.
Like the Rolex vs the Ciitizen, one cost more but you know it will hold its value and last a long time. The other one will probably last a while too but isnt worth as much. If you can, get both. Shoot both and enjoy them like I do.
Nick,
Thanks for the comparison Nick. It’s nice to hear from someone who has both.
i don’t blame you alaskan for the M1 carbine. Those are excellent home defense firearms
Generally I’m not a pistol caliber fan, but I’d take one in 9mm.
If they can use that recoil reducing mechanism in a 7.62 (although it may be bulky), I’d snap it up.
John,
Like someone else said one designed for a .223 or 7.62 would be impressive. Of course I don’t know what they would have to do in order to make that feasible.
Whoops. Maybe take the .30 Luger out of my statement. The 19mm case probably doesn’t have the oomph of the 25mm case of the .30 Mauser.
The rising use of pistol-resistant body armor makes me wonder why the .30 Luger/.30 Mauser/7.62×25 Tokarev family of cartridges hasn’t seen a rebirth. If I’m not mistaken, these will zip through most vests with some authority. Maybe we sophisticated 21st-century types don’t think the early 1900s can teach us anything? Or am I all wet?
Heck, the .30 Luger is basically a necked-up 9mm Parabellum (yes, I’m aware it happened the other way around). Wouldn’t even have to change the bolt or mags on an MP-5, right?
schizuki,
They are still handgun rounds with ballistics well below the energy needed to penetrate todays body armor.
Theoretically the Kriss Vector, in its restricted automatic version (of course
, could be very effective against body armor, given the groups it is capable of creating on a target. Even pistol calibers can defeat body armor if the rounds strike in a close group. The Russians 7N31 +P+ 9x19mm round is one of the most impressive innovations in body-armor defeating cartridges utilizing a common gauge.
W,
As I mentioned earlier with the innovations in ammunition design in the last ten years I would think it possible to create an armor piercing 45 ACP. You never know it may already be out there. A year prior to the Black Talon being released to LEO’s in the 80′s the SEALS had been using it for well over a year. They worked with Olin in Alton, IL on the Black Talon design. The man who helped design that round lived close to me and gave me some of the original batch which was not a teflon coated round. You never know what the ammo companies will come up with especially with a little government money:-)
That has got to be the funkiest looking design for a sub gun ever. I’ve never held one but I’d take a Thompson SMG before the KRISS anyday. It looks too much like one of those specialty guns found on video games nowadays, IMO.
Saif,
I like the Thompson as well. The only problem is fully loaded with a drum magazine they are heavy!
Forgot fully-loaded with a drum; they’re 10lbs+ unloaded. That’s more than many battle rifles.
Thompsons are cool but in now way do they best the kriss. Except perhaps ammo capacity with the drum.
Matt,
The old Thompson is a very cool weapon no doubt about it. Our PD had three–one was a WWII GI model with two other 1928 versions with the longer barrel, front vertical grip and drum magazines. Every now and then they would let us take them out to Camp Robinson in North Little Rock. That’s where we did some training. We all loved taking those old guns out and shooting up a bunch of 45ACP!
They are so heavy with the drum attached to the 1928 model the thing barely moved when you shot it. It’s a shame but they traded them in to help defray the cost of our switch to MP5′s to supplement the M16′s we already had.
The bottom line is I would have to go with the KRISS these days for the reduced weight, lack of muzzle rise and felt recoil. Not to mention accuracy and reliability for it’s intended purpose——
I’m in the minority I suppose. I like the long reviews because there’s a better chance something will be covered. Thanks for the work ou do Phil.
Hondo,
I don’t know for certain of course but I don’t think you’re in the minority. That comment was the only one I recall where someone was unhappy about the length of the reviews. I just try to cover as much relavent information as possible. You’re very welcome and I appreciate the comment!
Saw long article, scrolled to bottom to confirm author, skipped.
Please put the author next to the title so I can skip more efficiently.
Better yet: tag the articles so I can bookmark something like:
thefirearmblog.com/tag/not:philwhite
Phil White’s articles are one of my favorites ! Yes , they are long…and that’s great! They are so informative and well made…and they definitely worth the time to read …even more !
Hrach,
I sure do appreciate your feedback. As I’ve said it’s great to know I’m providing what readers like yourself want in content. Thanks again and I hope you continue to enjoy them!
mp,
You don’t have to scroll that far. At the top left of each article the name of the author is listed. Yep right next to the title of the review just as you want it. Yes my reviews are long as they are supposed to be. I hope this helps you save some time:-)
I’m glad they’re long. They’re informative. That’s why I read the blog…
fw226,
That’s great to hear. I want to make sure I cover all the bases for anyone who reads a review I’ve done. I haven’t done my job if I leave things out to keep them short. That would be shortchanging you all and I won’t do that!
It would be interesting if their R&D guys made a carbine in .460 Rowland or maybe .45 Bushmaster and took it hog hunting.
I’d like to hear about how effective that research might be, were they to give it a shot.
Koop,
Calibers like that would be interesting but their focus is always going to be geared toward defense for civilians and the military/police market. One gun I’d like to see go back in production is the old Ruger in 44 magnum. They look like a 10/22 but are anything but. That would be one useful carbine size rifle.
Phil,
I do like your thorough posts and the way you answer to each comment…but let me do a suggestion which (IMHO) will make your posts even better. So why don’t you make videos? I see every time you review a firearm you shoot it, compare it’s pros and cons etc. …so I think videos will make your works more complete. I hope my feedback will be useful. Thank you.
Hrach,
We have talked about that at least on some of the review guns. There is a gun coming up I’ll be doing video on so we’ll see what you think about it:-) I appreciate your feedback.
Say what you will about the cost and weight and practicality, issues with ergonomics or extracting live shells, the fabled but never seen 9mm and 40sw versions…
The production KRISS/Vector looks about a million times better than their new prototype/version 2.
I’ll be interested in what they bring to SHOT next month.
Other,
I’m looking forward to see what they have and changes that have been made. It won’t be long before the show:-)
The design is very advanced, but the cartridge it’s firing (a pistol round) makes it regressive compared to the assault rifles and PDW’s available today. While it’s true that you could make a special armor piercing .45 acp, that would be an expensive package+the rifle for a military or police agency to adopt when they could buy AR15′s for a lot cheaper that offer superior long range accuracy and power. And not to mention, M885′s are abundent and cheap to buy and have a good AP capabilities for not being an AP round.
I believe this also, which is why i am also intrigued by Magpul’s PDR concept. The 5.56mm round is effective in a PDW role.
As usual, I’ll be the fly in the ointment. The thought of spending $2000 on a semi-auto .45acp carbine – even though it is technically and mechanically groovy – is beyond my reckoning.
I’m not a fan of pistol based carbines in general (except maybe a lever action for nostaligic reasons) as they really don’t bring any utility to the shooting table.
Admittedly, I don’t spend my days shooting multiple rounds along the pelvic girdle, so I’m probably not a key part of KRISS’ customer base. And obviously, the reviewer stated ‘The Vector is primarily aimed at the military and police market.’
So, a very expensive toy that I can’t really justify.
different strokes for different folks. I like the uniqueness of the Kriss. Living in NY state, you need a pistol license just to touch a pistol. So I can participate in local pistol matches with my Kriss. My club does some high power matches but that is distance shooting at 200 yds. We dont have any matches for cqb engagements with ARs.
Shooting the Kriss fast is fun. But most can be said with a lot of firearms.
Variety makes things interesting. Enjoy what you like. But keep an open mind.
Hi Nick,
I’m glad you enjoy your KRISS and I do try and keep an open mind, but for me personally, the trade off a pistol caliber in a system with a rifle comparative weight, bulk, length, etc. isn’t worth it.
As you say, different strokes for different folks, but I can’t for the life of me think of a reason I would need / want a KRISS over a more standard pistol / rifle.
I’m sure my comments won’t detract you from enjoying your KRISS.
Happy shooting.
SpudGun,
No you’re not the fly in the ointment–LOL! I happen to agree the price is more than I can handle on a police pension even though I’d love to have one. The police and military were the original group these were made for. The civilian version I have is a fairly recent addition. They have been very active in marketing the SMG to various military units and police agencies.
Thanks for the reply Phil. As long as you have the ear of KRISS, any chance you can get hold of a Sphinx for review?
SpudGun,
You bet sir. I’ll be glad to try and get one for review. I’ll see what’s available. Of course I’ll take whichever model they have for testing purposes.
Good review. I have had my Kriss since 2009. Just a little bit of nuance. The Kriss light receptacle only accepts 1xcell E-series lights. The reason is due to the mount design. You have to remove the pocket clip of the light and use a set screw to hold onto that cavity in the light body. 2xcell E-series lights are too long to use this. Also the receptacle is formed around the neck of the light where the bezel/head screws on. You can get an aftermarket 1xcell extension and use a brighter head and 2x cells. But with the Carbine the head might touch the shroud.
I dont recommend shooting without the shroud. I shot the Kriss at a Carbine class. On the second day I tried to lighten the weight of the Kriss by removing the shroud. It threw my 50 yd zero off paper!!
Other issues going into the Kriss is ejecting FTF or live rounds. It is a little bit of a pain. The round will not fly out of the chamber. You either have to rip out the mag or roll the gun to the right to get that round out.
Also loading a fully loaded mag on a closed bolt on the kriss is a bit of a pain.
With those considerations you just need to practice with those in mind. The gun has been a real pleasure to shoot and I love it.
Nick,
Thanks Nick I appreciate it. I agree you do have to slam the mag home when it’s at capacity with a closed bolt. I just got used to making sure the bolt was locked in the open position. The Executive series lights are the only ones that fit at present unless you use the lower rail to mount a brighter light.
That is interesting that the shroud adds that much stiffness to the barrel.
Phil,
According to my Carbine Instructor, the barrel whips up and down when fired. Although the shroud does not weigh a lot, it changes that whip motion. So Zero is drastically different.
And just to clarify, dont use a E2 E-series light. It has to be a E1 series light, due to the way the Kriss holds the light body.
Nick,
That makes perfect sense Nick. I have an E1 I may try before returning it–just to see if it works well.
Phil,
Sorry to say but you will need the adapter. http://kriss-tdi.com/kriss-store.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl1&product_id=26&category_id=17
That is what holds the light in place. Without it, there is nothing to hold the light in the receptacle in the upper receiver. Also you will need the SureFire UE07 tailcap and Tape switch. Otherwise there isnt anyway to activate the light.
You could remove the “V” cap, wrap your E1 light with some tape, turn it on and wedge it into the Upper Receiver.
But more than likely it will fall out. under recoil. Unless you really wedge it in there.
Another issue is that there is a large shadow casted by the shroud.
Nick,
I have a tape switch for mine. I didn’t check to much into a mount which should be included. Oh well I may try it anyway:-)
Ive shot my friends a few times, run through an IPSC course with it, and have a few issues.
Weight: The damn thing is heavy for what it is.
Stock: flexes a bit much
Controls: unless you have an extra joint in your thumb, that safety is not easy to operate, not on the first gen, or the second. I’ve tried both.
Cost: For what you can do with it, you can buy a few other pistol caliber carbines, with the same accuracy, and a pistol to go with them. And usually a case of ammo to practice with.
Barrel shroud: weighs a lot. Without the shroud, looks goofy as hell. This isnt Kriss’s fault, its the BATFE’s fault.
Charging handle: only movement of the bolt is a short very stiff section. Not easy to manipulate.
Overall, its a cool excersize and an interesting idea. I cant wait to see the Kard pistol, which should be a bit better managed in all respects.
Bryan, I think you need more range time with my Kriss haha.
I have come to adapt to the Kriss. the safety selector gave me issues with it when I first got it. Mine is the older style so Safe is 180 deg back and fire is 90 deg down. I am right handed so I used my thumb to flip the switch down.
With the ergonomics of the grip being so high, I have a little bit of diffculty flipping the safety down when I cheek the stock. However, when I am at low-ready I do not have that problem and can easily manipulate the safety off.
For engaging the safety I prefer to use my trigger finger since the Kriss has ambidextrous safety levers. I dont mind using my trigger finger to do this. It actually makes sense and keeps in line with the rules of firearm safety. By engaging the safety I keep my finger off the trigger. So bonus safety points!!
When i make my AR buffer tube adapter, That should solve any flexing issues. But I havent really experienced any flexing. Maybe you are torquing down on the stock too much? I barely put any pressure back into my shoulder.
Bryan,
Im game!!! I may have my own AR by that time.
Bryan,
Experiences with any gun are certainly objective. I only have one issue and that’s weight. It weighs less than six pounds in this carbine version. As I said in the review the price would be the major downside for me. Yes the BATFE does get in the way at times don’t they. It would look goofy without the shroud as you said. The charging handle only moves about two inches if that. Mine was a bit stiff until I lubed it.
The charging handle is smooth, until it gets teh load, and then has a very short very stiff pull. I know at least once i thought I had charged the carbine and had not.
Nick: that just means we need to get together more often. maybe next match I can run your Kriss, you can run my AR.
Hey, I love your blog. Just one thing I noticed in this KRISS Vector review: the standard G21 magazine capacity is 13 rounds, not 14. Maybe the magazines you received have a floor plate extension or you’re counting the round in the chamber? I just thought I’d throw that out there. I’ll keep checking back every day for new articles. Take care. -Mike
Michael,
You are correct. The magazine itself only has witness holes for 13 rounds. It didn’t look like a standard extension (just a thicker base) but it added one additional round which by the way was hard to load. I stayed with 13 rounds until the magazine springs loosened up a bit. With the higher capacity setup it takes a TDI made adapter to come up with the 30 round capacity. You can’t just use a Glock standard extended mag.
How were the controls? Have the done anything to them recently?
I handled one in a local gun shop right when they came out and had a lot of trouble being able to operate the safety without moving my hand about. And I use a 92FS as my CCW so it’s not like I’ve got wee hands.
I have a Kriss Carbine and I find it helps to use your thumb and index finger. Dont try to flip the safety off when you cheek the weapon. Doit from low ready on your way up to getting your sight picture. Then when you are done shooting, use your trigger finger knuckle to flip the safety back up.
I have not shot the newer Kriss safeties to see how it is best to engage the safety. People were complaining that the fire position of the selector switch was pointed straight down and digging into people’s hands.
So they changed the geometry and now the fire position is more forward at like 7 o’clock position and safe is at 5 o’clock position.
Nick,
Safe and fire settings on this one is only about a 40 degree throw so they must have changed it. True the range is 7 o’clock to 5 o’clock.
Spade,
No you don’t have wee hands if the 92 safety works easily for you:-) I don’t know if they have changed the safety location or size recently. I had no difficulty operating the safety from either side. Maybe they lengthened it?
Spade,
I added two pictures to the review showing the position of the safety on the current model. It’s closer to the shooters thumb. It also moves from the 5 o’clock position to the 7 o’clock position. Much better than the earlier model you described.
It seems that I have to be the one to make the usual comment on the claims concerning this gun: “As you can see the recoil forces are directed down rather than to the rear as most common carbines operate.”
Recoil cannot be redirected in that way, it’s contrary to a basic law of physics: “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. This means that since the bullet and the escaping gas go forwards, the gun must go backwards.
Gun mechanisms can spread out the recoil impulse, thereby reducing the peak recoil blow (and therefore the perceived recoil). This may well be the case with the Kriss. I also have no doubt that the very high handgrip in relation to the barrel axis reduces the tendency for the muzzle to lift. But recoil cannot be redirected, unless a compensator or muzzle brake is attached to redirect some of the escaping gas.
Even though you are correct, Tony, it will fall on deaf ears. Marketing rules and pesky physics can be ignored.
Build a five pound pistol where the bore axis is in line with your wrist and watch as it magically has less felt recoil.
Ian,
Of course with the grip closer to the bore axis recoil will be reduced. I’ve seen that many times. However, it doesn’t negate the design of this weapon in handling recoil. It just works above what you would expect from having your grip closer to the bore axis.
Sure ! I guess what happens is the downward movement of bolt assembly creates an opposite force to muzzle climb, hence the muzzle climb is being reduced increasing the ability of shooter to remain on target.
Besides the bolt doesn’t hit the rear wall of the receiver and you just don’t FEEL much recoil on your shoulder…so it reduces the FELT recoil , not the recoil in general.
I was not impressed with my test copy. I did not find a great reduction in recoil, lots of jams and the stock broke when the sling slipped off my shoulder and it fell 3 inches to a carpeted floor. Not impressed.
David,
Sorry you had one break. I had no malfunctions with this one with anything but the referenced Wolf ammo.
Hrach,
True and that is the primary method of reducing felt recoil I’m sure. That seems pretty obvious. As long as it works—well that’s what counts. That is correct the bolt cams down immediately so there is no contact with the rear of the receiver.
Tony,
This may be my fault for not being more in depth on how it handles recoil and exhaust gases. The gases really are directed down and to the rear I haven’t cleaned the gun yet but when I do I’ll have a closer look at the redirected gas method they use. Of course there is always muzzle blast to deal with but I have to say it’s an impressive and effective system for reducing recoil. You might take a look at the video demonstration on the TDI KRISS website.
The illustration of the action sequence makes perfect sense to me as far as reducing the mechanical recoil forces.
A couple of the owners of this gun who have commented can probably verify what I have experienced.
I’ll chime in and agree that Tony is absolutely right. You can bleed off energy in a recoil mechanism, but you can’t do the same thing with recoil. Linear momentum is ALWAYS conserved. Regardless of what TDI marketers might tell you, the same effect can be created in a linear recoil spring system with even less muzzle flip. All you need is to maintain the same bore axis, and include a spring system that doesn’t allow complete compression/sudden stop at the end. You could even play around with double/staged recoil springs like in the gen4 glocks to find an ideal staging of compression impulses.
The whole “directing forces downward to prevent muzzle climb” is also entirely spurious. What happens in fact is that once the recoil assembly starts moving downward, the rest of the gun has to move upward to maintain a constant center of mass. This, in effect, accentuates muzzle flip at the moment of firing. Of course, once the bolt returns to battery, this effect is canceled out, so there is no net gain/loss in muzzle flip. Once again, a linear system would be superior in that it would not have this momentary muzzle flip effect that could destabilize point of aim.
If TDI’s system involved some sort of gas porting that acts like a compensator by actually blowing gases OUT of the weapon toward the rear, that would actually reduce recoil forces, but I see no such system in their technical descriptions/animations.
In summary, the reduction in perceived recoil is entirely due to the ergonomics of the gun- bore axis, hand grip position, stock position on the shoulder, with some minor advantages provided by having a less sudden stop of the bolt during cycling. There is no force/momentum re-vectoring magic going on.
RJ,
I’m not an engineer so I can’t really say for certain how they do it but it does work. That’s the main thing I’m interested in.
I did take the gun all the way down a little earlier today and looked for any gas ports etc. The only thing I found were two ports on each side of the receiver( above the charging handle on the left side). However this is also the space where the mounted flashlight is so my thought is this is made to run a pressure switch for the light to an accessory rail or the included grip not an exhaust port.
RJ,
I’ll delete the first post for you and leave the newer one——
With regards to the difficult in penetrating body armour, surely it’s not beyond the capacity of modern industry to create a sabot round with a simple one piece synthetic sabot and 0.25″ or so diameter solid steel or tungsten slug.
The sabot could have a similar profile to a FMJ round to avoid feeding problems.
The major downsides would be a) there might not be enough pressure from a lightweight round to cycle the action and b) standard “baffle stack” suppressors would not work, they would need to be of the “ported tube” variety.
You don’t need to get quite so fancy as that for IIIA soft armor. I could say more but I’m not sure if I’m allowed. ^.^
Sian,
How so Stan? As long as it’s not a personal attack on a member or a lot of profanity we don’t edit comments based on most content. Use your own judgement on that part of your comment.
bbmg,
I actually considered that when I was writing this. Of course you can’t get them now but years ago you could buy most major pistol rounds with penetrators that would defeat a standard vest. In fact I took some Federal .357 armor piercing back in 84 and it went right through a level IIA vest. I fired it using a Python with a six inch barrel. I see no reason why a .45 in +P with that type of penetrator wouldn’t work as well. There shouldn’t be any feeding problems considering the fairly sharp profile of the bullet.
I think 6.25 x 25 CBJ round featured elsewhere on this blog and covered in detail in the link below is a fantastic idea:
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm
The fact that it needs a new barrel though and its own specific brass makes its adoption less likely in my view. Maintaining an existing calibre also means that the use of full bore rounds is still an option available to the operator if the situation requires it.
A shorter fatter version of the flechette rounds made for the AAI ACR prototype would tear through pretty much anything likely to be encountered, and with full bore fins would still cut through a substantial amount of tissue in the manner of a hunting arrow or SCMITR round: http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/scmitr2.jpg
bbmg,
Now that round would be a real penetrator and do some serious damage I would think. The old round wouldn’t work but this one surely would. The only problem is getting the military to even consider it. They always look for something entirely new. It’s a feasible idea for special units though. Within reason they can get most anything they need.
The flechette has come a long ways since Vietnam. Still I’m not convinced it would provide the hydrostatic shock needed to put an enemy down quickly. It would just have to be extensively tested. It’s just a pretty long process. Look at the time it took for some of our units to get approval for the 6.8.
I’d like to see a couple of new rounds for our standard rifles as well as close quarters weapons. The 5.56 can be very effective but lacks the ability to handle the distances involved in Afghanistan thus the move to bring out updated M14′s as a stop gap measure. At least we had them on hand.
By the way the 45acp version of that Swiss round would a good choice as well. Still I wonder about such a lightweight round being effective.
I suppose the military argument would be that if they need a small high velocity penetrator, they might as well use a full bore small calibre like the FN 5.7 or HK 4.6.
Firearm design seems to have stagnated somewhat, materials and techniques improve but there are no real radical improvements or departures from established concepts, the KRISS is somewhat innovative but not dramatically so.
In that context, improving ammunition seems to be the most logical path to concentrate development on, it makes financial and logistical sense because existing firearms can be used and no retraining of personnel is required.
bbmg,
Improving ammunition is certainly one of the primary efforts now–at least in my opinion. Of course we don’t always know what new arms are being designed. The KRISS and the fairly new HK are contenders for close quarters use. The Israeli’s Tavor is fairly short and also useful for close quarters while still having the ability to reach out a good distance. The only downside with weapons capable of performing both jobs is the reduced sight radius which effects accuracy at distance.
Thanks for the write up Phil. Read it, spot on….it is a joy to shoot. Anyone want to see TDI KRISS Video I have one up. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbJlxBndI4 Please note, in the future I will be removing all music for sake of SOPA. Its nothing special just shooting.
Thanks again Phil, I very few people ever review this weapons system. Wondering how much this will change when Shot Show 2012 debuts the new design model.
Actually Mike you hit the nail on the head. There are very few Kriss owners out there and hardly any of them document or talk about the Kriss. I have been documenting my Kriss and anything Kriss related on my facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kriss-Super-V/157275704339968
Mike,
My pleasure Mike. I’ve been trying to pick more exotic weapons at the request of some readers and this was as much enjoyment as I’ve had with a test gun in a very long time. I know it won’t go back until my time to have it is almost up:-) I’m anxious to see the upgraded design myself. I’ll have a look at the video shortly.
Mike,
Good video Mike! Man you sure had a windy day but still had a nice groups—good job. At the end of the video I did notice the safety is very different now.