Silver Shadow Gilboa APR (Assault Pistol Rifle)

DoubleTapper has reviewed a very nifty Israeli-made PDW-style AR-15 called the Silver Shadow Gilboa APR (Assault Pistol Rifle). This small gun has a forward bolt return spring, eliminating the need for a buffer tube and thus reducing its size.

Silver Shadow Gilboa APR: Small enough for a briefcase


Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


Advertisement

  • Go Gilboa, go!
    A question, what’s that thing going out from the gun’s right?

    • SpudGun

      On the video, they show a separate charging handle on the left hand side, so it’s not that. My only guess would be a bolt release / forward assist. However, that is only a guess.

    • Neil.P.

      I think it’s just a shell deflector, the groove behind it appears to just be a molded part of the receiver. It doesn’t look like it has a forward assist.

  • just like the RRA PDS.
    Would be cool in alternate (SBR) caliber, like 300 BLK.

    • noob

      I see the resemblance. I like that this has a FAL position cocking handle rather than the PDS’ HK-like forward cocking handle.

      Anybody got pictures of the internals? I’d be interested to see if the action spring is like the PDS (ie a skinny spring between the shortened bolt and the rear of the upper receiver) or if it’s like the Kel-Tec PLR-16/SU-16 where the action spring wraps around the piston rod.

      I really prefer the spring away from the hot parts from a mechanical standpoint, don’t know which is more reliable in the real world.

      Also it would be interesting to see disassembly and how many small parts it relies on.

      Having small parts and pins that deactivate the entire rifle when lost was, in my opinion, the downfall of the Z-M Weapons LR-300/Para Tactical Target Rifle.

      When adding complexity to the AR15, additional small parts should be avoided. There already is the Firing Pin Retaining Pin to lose or break, and at least magpul sells you a pistol grip module to hold a spare bolt in case you do.

    • Other Steve

      Really? I thought you would be more of a 7.62×40 Won’t Take kind of guy 😉

      But yea, a 7″ AR is dumb from a ballistics and concussion point of view. If you’re stuck with 223, my opinion is bullpups start to become a lot more attractive for a PDW.

      • Tinkerer

        How about a blowback SMG firing the russian 7N21 9mm round, in bullpup configuration, with downward ejection just behind the magazine well, and long bolt travel for lesser felt recoil and stress on the internals?

  • P1030

    I like the war scenario, lets see what happens when its covered in sand *closes dust cover*. It still fires even if the outside is dirty O_O

  • Jon Mac

    The name is nonsensical.

    • Mark

      It probably sounds better in Hebrew.

  • Tinkerer

    I still believe that firing 5.56×45 ammo from a barrel that’s less than 18″ long is a waste of good propellant and muzzle velocity/energy.

    • W

      Not if you are lacking a unlimited budget (which is everybody now) to adopt radically new calibers, platforms, and technologies. the common 5.56 round and AR15 platform in a short barrel rifle perform more than adequately for PDW roles (anything not FJM is better).

      • Tinkerer

        Remember: not all the world uses the AR-15 platform, not even in NATO-standarized militaries. My country went for the locally built licensed version of the SIG-540, Brazil went for their indigenous rifle based on the FAL, Britain use their L85, France the FA-MAS, Germany, Spain, Norway and other countries the G-36, Austria, Australia and New Zealand the AUG, etc. etc. And that’s not counting all the big militaries out there that don’t comform to NATO standards: Russia, most of the old Soviet republics, most of Africa, China with it’s own standard rifle cartridge… Just because the US military uses the AR-15 doesn’t mean that other paths can’t be pursued.

        I said it before: the AR-15/5.56×45 platform is an adequate rifle/caliber combination, but not an adequate combination for a PDW. That takes us to the very definition of PDW: a compact, easy-to-use weapon for undertrained personnel to defend themselves -not to fight back and take Mount Suribachi, but to make the attackers pause and duck while you get away and let the fighting soldiers with real rifles take on the enemy. Now, if specialized operators can take advantage of the platform’s compactness in specific scenarios, that’s a completely different matter.

        Want to keep using the AR-15 platform in a PDW for non-fightning personnel? Equip it with an adequate round for the role.

        Want to keep using the 5.56×45 round for riflemen AND for non-fighting personnel? Use it in a more compact platform -like a bullpup, that doesn’t sacrifice barrel lenght for compactness.

        But keeping BOTH the AR-15 AND the 5.56×45 for a role they weren’t designed to fill, is a bad idea.

        And finally: remember, the military is stuck with FMJ, non-deforming rounds. Green tips and such are a big no-no thanks to the Hague Convention.

      • W

        Not all of the world uses the AR15 platform, but it should be no mystery as to why they are replacing many of their older and indigenous weapons designs with M4’s and M16’s: widely available parts, inexpensive to produce, modular, lightweight and easy to acquire if you are a US ally.

        I’m not sure what you mean, but people that are legally allowed to use PDW’s are trained professionals, not amateurs, especially in the case of PSD teams and private contractors. The PDW concept was made to bridge the gap between submachine gun and assault rifle, thats it. Proprietary cartridges were developed, though these rounds are not known for their ability to neutralize targets, though are effective against armored ones. When the P90 and MP7 were developed, SBR’s were still in their infancy. Given new technologies and lessons learned, SBRs exceed in the PDW role due to the raw power and energy of the 5.56 compared to the new PDW cartridges.

        “Want to keep using the AR-15 platform in a PDW for non-fightning personnel? Equip it with an adequate round for the role.”

        there are already adequate rounds recently developed: the Mk 262 77 gr round, the M855A1 round, and polymer-tipped ammunition. Those rounds excel in neutralizing human targets and are certainly miles better than the 5.7 or 4.6.

        “Want to keep using the 5.56×45 round for riflemen AND for non-fighting personnel? Use it in a more compact platform -like a bullpup, that doesn’t sacrifice barrel lenght for compactness.”

        I believe bullpups are flawed. They are unbalanced, heavy, and ergonomic nightmares. I like the Steyr AUG and magpul’s PDW concept, though i believe AR15-type SBR’s are perfect. Case in example, the H&K 416D.

        “But keeping BOTH the AR-15 AND the 5.56×45 for a role they weren’t designed to fill, is a bad idea.”

        The 5.56 and Ar15 were designed for close combat; similar to the German assault rifle designed for the close range to 300 meter bracket. Most soldiers, police, and PSD personnel are highly proficient with the Ar15 platform and know the capabilities of the round. There is no point in reinventing the wheel for a concept that is defensive rather than offensive.

        “And finally: remember, the military is stuck with FMJ, non-deforming rounds. Green tips and such are a big no-no thanks to the Hague Convention.”

        the military is fielding the M855A1 enhanced performance round (http://www.army.mil/article/48657/) and has fielded the Mk 262 (open tip, match grade, 77gr) since Gulf War I. Both rounds are legal to use, per Geneva and Hague, and they offer much improvement over the Cold War-era M855 green tip round.

  • Lance

    Another piston AR with a PDW set up nothing new.

    • Domestic Squirrel

      If this video was made 2 years prior it might feel a bit exciting, but no.

  • Whatever

    It’s weird to me that so much effort gets put into making the AR platform into a submachine gun when there are existing submachine guns that perform better in that role and shoot rounds more suited to that size firearm. Simple blowback firearms that aren’t complicated by features not needed in a personal defense weapon.

    Rather than the 5.56 round, the 30 carbine or 7.62x25mm Tokarev round would be better personal defense rounds our of a shorter barreled weapon. If compatibility with the AR platform is a must, then make a rimless 357 magnum round (which would be basically a straight-walled 223 Remington).

    • Tinkerer

      “then make a rimless 357 magnum round”

      I believe that was the idea with such rounds as the .300 BLK/Whisper/Whatever and .300 WT: put a big, fat projectile in a modified .223/5.56 case. Still, I really don’t see much sense on using rifle rounds on carbine -or even pistol- lenght barrels. Quite frankly, a direct blowback weapon in, say, the russian armor-piercing 9mm round would be far more sensible in close quarters combat -such as in defensive situations-.

      • SpudGun

        Tinkerer, I can understand when you said ‘russian armor-piercing 9mm round would be far more sensible in close quarters combat’.

        However, not all SBR / PDWs are restricted to a CQB role and the rifle sized bullets will give you a better maximum effective range then a handgun load even out of a short barrel.

        Throw in magazine, parts and ammo compatability along with some of the ‘secret squirrel’ 5.56mm rounds that are out there and you can see the allure of the platform.

        Finally, economics come into play all along the supply and maintenance chain. Saves time and money if the armorers only have to work on one system.

      • Tinkerer

        Spudgun, if versatility is needed for a wonder carbine that can be used both for CQB and mid-range engagements -let’s face it, it wouldn’t be realistic to try and use in in long range engagements-, I have to say that the 5.56×45 is a poor choice. That round, due to it’s light weight and small caliber, relieves heavily on velocity to achieve acceptable energy levels. But with shorter barrels, you lose velocity and energy -and with some loadings you don’t get the bullet to spin fast enough to stabilize. So, yes, you get a compact weapon compatible with your service rifles -assuming that your service rifle is an AR-15 variant: it so happens that is not the case with a large part of the world- but that while being able to fire the same ammo, it just will NOT have the same ballistic behaviour -decreased velocity, energy, range, accuracy, and even failure to fragment when (or IF) it hits it’s intended target-, so the point becomes moot.

      • SpudGun

        Sorry Tinkerer, I’m afraid the point doesn’t become moot. The 5.56mm, even out of a short barrel, will have a maximum lethal energy out to at least 400 meters, roughly 4 times that of a 9mm. Please note, I’m talking about maximum effective range – the point at which the round drops below the NATO defined minimum lethal energy of 85 joules.

        As for your other point about the AR-15 and it’s worldwide usage – other countries have similar rifles / SBRs / PDWs in 5.56mm or calibers identical to the 5.56mm, with 5.45mm being an almost exact ballistic match. The Micro Tavor, Sig 552 and AK 74SU are just three examples of non-AR-15 designs that have larger siblings in military service utilizing the same components.

        As for your other comments about the rounds not stabilizing, not fragmenting or being so wholely inaccurate that they can’t hit their targets, there are a number of loadings designed specifically for short barrels that overcome any of these problems.

      • mosinman

        that and alot of countries use rifles with STANAG magazines so if this pdw uses STANAG mags then it makes sense

      • Tinkerer

        Spudgun, if you need specialty ammunition in order to take advantage of the short barrel, then you might as well use another weapon system, since you won’t be using the standard ammo your riflemen will be using.

      • SpudGun

        Getting a box of specialty ammo costs like $30, getting an entirely new and unfamiliar weapons system costs untold amounts of dough.

        Of course, you began the debate talking about using specialty 9mm AP ammunition, so I’m not really sure where you are going with this line of reasoning.

      • Tinkerer

        The reasoning is that, since such a short barreled gun would STILL need specialty ammo, then it makes more sense to use specialty ammo designed specifically for short barrels, instead of specialty ammo that’s just a modification from existing ammo, with all the compromises it carries -since it’s a compromise modification it will still be restricted by the original design’s limitations, instead of taking advantage of clean-slate design to be superior for this role. No matter how much you tweak the 5.56×45, it STILL is a rifle round designed to be fired from a rifle barrel. Firing it from a carbine barrel is already bad enough performance-wise, but it gets even worse with such a Frankenstein AR -which by the way, is too a specialty gun that only has so many common parts with the rifles. Remember: different bolt carrier, different gas system, using a locked-bolt -with all of it’s inherent complexity- because the 5.56×45 caliber demands it, while the barrel lenght will give you GREATLY diminished performance. Just how much velocity and energy can you squeeze out of the 5.56×45 on such a short barrel? How much higher -or lower!- are those values compared to a round meant for short barrels?

      • SpudGun

        Tinkerer – we seem to be going round in circles. I have given you a list of reasons for the advantages of a short barrelled AR-15 over a 9mm subgun from range, to lethality, to economics, to maintenance, to parts commonality and compatability.

        If you put a standard 5.56mm round through an SBR, you won’t get the same range or accuracy of putting it through a 20″ barrel, that is read. But you will get more then acceptable accuracy and lethality out to 400 meters. Something that is impossible with a 9mm handgun load.

        So far, you’ve picked holes in everything I’ve written without stating a prefered caliber or weapon system that would rival or exceed an AR-15 SBR and all of the advantages it brings with it.

        I am genuinely fascinated to know what you would consider to be superior in terms of range, accuracy, lethality, weight and recoil.

      • Tinkerer

        Spudgun, in order for me to answer that, first I need the figures of muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, bullet drop, terminal velocity, and terminal energy for a standard -or even custom- 5.56×45 round fired from such a short barreled PDW as the one from this post. What’s the barrel lenght, anyway? 10″? 7″?

      • SpudGun

        Tinkerer – The varying 5.56mm muzzle velocities for different sized barrels, with different rates of twist and bullet weights is a complete myriad. However, they will all put out over 2000 fps and depending on the powder / bullet can be as high as 2700 fps.

        Compard to a 9mm round that does kinetic / mechanical damage, a 5.56mm round will spin, yaw, fragment and create a wound channel much larger then it’s diameter. Coupled with the hydrostatic / hydraulic shock of such a fast moving round, if you are hit with one, your day is over.

        Though I am curious, without knowing the figures, how did you determine that Russian 9mm AP ammo was superior to 5.56mm for CQB?

      • Tinkerer

        Spudgun, besides muzzle velocity, you must also see muzzle energy. And beside muzzle data, you also need terminal velocity and energy.

        Yes, most 5.56 ammo will yield over 2000 fps of muzzle velocity. However, just as you said that the damage from the 5.56 comes from yaw and fragmentation, it so happens that according to this testing page http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html you need 2700 fps for reliable yaw and fragmentation. Any less and the ball bullet won’t yaw neither fragment -especially if fired from a high twist-rate barrel that increases stability via gyroscopic effect.

        Now, seeing that page http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html and this other one http://counterstrikefox.freeservers.com/mv.htm we see that at such short barrels like 10″, 5.56 won’t get reliably above the fragmentation threshold velocity of 2700 fps even at the muzzle -and at distance, the velocity will drop even lower. So, without reliable fragmentation, ¿how much damage will produce a .22 caliber, light and non-deforming bullet? There will be very little energy dump on the tissue. Remember the problems in Somalia when shooting unarmored foes with M-4s: rounds didn’t reach the combatants with enough velocity to fragment and did little damage. And with short barreled guns that won’t even reach fragmentation velocity even at the muzzle, how can it fragment at the 400m range that you claim?

        Now there’s the matter of energy: on 10 inch barrels, http://counterstrikefox.freeservers.com/mv.htm reports muzzle energy levels below 1000 ft/lbs, while by comparison, our friends from Ballistics by the Inch report muzzle energies for .357 magnum from the same barrel lenghts very similar to those, only that with much less muzzle blast and flash, and with a thicker, blunter bullet that transfers more energy into the target’s tissue than the thinner, pointed bullet of the 5.56 -which we already said wouldn’t fragment at the low velocities that a short barrel yields-. (data from http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/MEdata.xls )

        Now, I only proposed the 9 mm russian as an example, because I don’t know it’s ballistic values, but to show that you can find rounds out there that can do quite a good job -and if there aren’t, there’s always the possibility of making one. For me, STANAG equals Stagnation.

        5.56×45 is a good rifle round to be fired from a rifle barrel, but it certainly is NOT a PDW round to be fired from a PDW barrel. Hell, maybe the .300 BLK/Whisper/Whatever, which derives it’s energy more from bullet weight than from bullet velocity, could be made to work better in shorter barrels. But frankly, from a PDW-lenght barrel, I’d prefer something that burns most of it’s gunpowder inside the barrel than outside.

      • W

        “It’s weird to me that so much effort gets put into making the AR platform into a submachine gun when there are existing submachine guns that perform better in that role and shoot rounds more suited to that size firearm. Simple blowback firearms that aren’t complicated by features not needed in a personal defense weapon.”

        The reason for this is the ubiquity of the AR platform. Until phasers or caseless ammunition are massively fielded, AR platforms will continue to be used, primarily because they can be inexpensively produced. Until the mid-2000’s, assault rifle concepts couldn’t adequately apply the use of short barrels (with the exception of the outstanding AKS74U); it was a technology limitation. With new technology and expertise, however, ar15-based SBRs can be reliable, adequate small arms for PSD teams desiring such weapons. It is my opinion that because of the evolution of the assault rifle, SMGs are obsolete. They are the same size as comparable SBRs though utilize vastly inferior pistol calibers.

        “Rather than the 5.56 round, the 30 carbine or 7.62x25mm Tokarev round would be better personal defense rounds our of a shorter barreled weapon. If compatibility with the AR platform is a must, then make a rimless 357 magnum round (which would be basically a straight-walled 223 Remington).”

        actually not so much. the 30 carbine and 7.62 tokarev are obsolete cartridges with inferior ballistics and kinetic energies than modern 5.56mm ammunition (especially compared to open and polymer tipped ammunition). a rimless 357 would be needlessly reinventing the wheel and introducing another radically different cartridge, thus complicating logistics. I am enthusiastic to see further evolutions of the 5.56mm cartridge for PDW weapons. Like i said previously, the Russians are ahead of their time by simply heating up the 9x19mm cartridge with the 7N31 +P+ round instead of reinventing the wheel with the 4.6 and 5.7, which i believe are inferior in most ways to a hopped up 9mm round in the bigger picture. is the 7N31 superior to the 5.56? not remotely. Modern breakthroughs in 5.56mm ammunition make it a excellent PDW round (I am waiting for the Russians to evolve the 5.45mm round, which is still in its “military” stage, which requires upgrades to the standard 9mm round)

        Spudgun, you are, once again, correct in your points. Tinkerer, different 5.56mm rounds are still 5.56mm. you don’t have to design new weapon parts or even a new weapon by implimenting this plug and play caliber. utilizing new, different calibers complicates issues needlessly. Perhaps you are mistaking the role of PDWs and/or PSD teams: their role is not to assault and destroy the enemy or seize objectives; their role is to “get them and their guests off the X” (per US training center doctrine).

  • Tom

    It’s just another boring variation of the boring AR rifle.. Yawn..

    • Joe Schmoe

      I would like to point out that you have to take this PDW in context.

      It is designed by the same company that made “Corner Shot”. This PDW was designed ground up to fit on a Corner Shot.

      The idea is that the operator can then have commonality with the ammo (5.56) and magazines that the rest of the unit has (M4s, etc) as well as reduced training. The fact that they made a standalone version was more of a bonus than a design decision.

      For an idea how this looks on the Corner Shot:
      http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRloz287gbv8ceX_DWaRoLEDr7uGv-uaBd2ZmNU8PxApbmn1LCcNRRUrKpu

      • fw226

        That’s a big piece of context!

      • noob

        Cool!

        I wonder if the Kitty Cornershot shroud is big enough to cover the bigger AR pistol?

        Or will they need a Doggy Cornershot plush camouflage system.

        Also, would a soldier be able to bet his life on the assembled AR-pistol-cum-cornershot system to perform as a straight up carbine, lightening his load?

        Or will the soldier need to carry an additional real carbine and keep the cornershot as a specialty weapon slung across his back?

  • Ted

    I think this is aimed at Private Security Companies who prefer PDW weapons for concealability/vehicle operations a AP capability in a very compact package something like what the FN P90/Hk MP7/ or M4 style SBR’s right now offer.

  • jdun

    What stock is that on the 30 seconds mark? I did not see it on Zahal.org store. I wouldn’t mind adding that stock to my collection.

    • Jeff Smith

      No clue if this helps, but it looks like it’s marked “IMI Defense.”

      • jdun

        I did search IMI Defense and came up with nothing. It’s a AR15 that stock that I have no information off. It interest me greatly.

    • jdun

      Ok I found it. It is called IMI Defense Delta Stock. It looks like it not in the market yet. If it is it is pretty new.

      Very little information about it tho.

      http://www.facebook.com/pages/IMI-DEFENSE/135736570911

  • SpudGun

    I’m clicking on the link to get the review, but all I get is the Blog main page with a Mighty Morphin AR-15 and a banner link for an accessories shop. Am I missing something?

  • My god! They have mastered 1940s weapons technology! Gods help us if they innovate further!

    But seriously, I’m tired of people doing old fashioned crap and acting like it is new and amazing. OMG PISTON SYSTEM! Just like that gun from the late 1800s 😮

    Will someone in firearms please actually think up something new -.-

    • Netforce

      Personally I think it’d be great if we actually have a functional Laser weapon like in G.I. Joe cartoons. I know it’s just a kid in me saying but we have lots of laser sight so some short-burst laser-firing system might be in the works. Who knows.

  • Lance

    The Russian 9mm AP ammo is over pressured and over penetrates one of several reasons the Yarigan pistol never flown very well in Russia over the older but handy Makarov.

    A 5.56 MARS was better suited for that.

    • Vitaliy

      Lance do you have direct evidence for your claims from the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs or Ministry of Defense or is it again one of your ignorant brain-farts into the dark or something you read on some website based on third of fourth source?

      P.S. My brother is issued with the SR-1 “Gyurza” pistol in 9x21mm caliber which is an even higher pressured caliber over previews Russian 9mm rounds. And the Makarov is fast falling out of service in Russia and is used now more for concealment or by second line troops and police.

      • Lance

        Sorry Vitaily

        Wikipedia and Guns RU already states the Yarigan is a 9x19mm pistol not 9×21 and only some Elite Spetz Naz and Internal Affairs are the only users of the Yarigan. Your brother may have a different weapon than the one stated. Im using Wikipedia and Guns RU so don’t give me the crap some give read the websites pal

        and Many Russian Police and officers use Makarovs there size is advantage for undercover cops.

      • W

        “Wikipedia and Guns RU already states the Yarigan is a 9x19mm pistol not 9×21 and only some Elite Spetz Naz and Internal Affairs are the only users of the Yarigan.”

        The handgun you are thinking of is the Grach, which is a modernized replacement to the post WWII-era Makarov. It apparently utilizes the 9x19mm ammunition (http://imzcorp.com/en/company/268.html) and can use the new 7N31 PDW round (a russian +P+). I believe a +P+ 9mm round is more adequate and practical in the PDW role than the 5.7 or 4.6 PDW rounds in so many aspects (especially without reinventing the wheel). The Russians seem quite insightful with small arms roles; in many times more so than western armies. According to your beloved Wikipedia, it has been standardized since 2003. Vitaliy, your information is correct.

        “Your brother may have a different weapon than the one stated. Im using Wikipedia and Guns RU so don’t give me the crap some give read the websites pal”

        well, i wouldn’t use wikipedia as a source unless you are examining the sources they use (such credible ones as imzcorp). Max Popenker is a excellent reference for small arms in Russia.

        “and Many Russian Police and officers use Makarovs there size is advantage for undercover cops”

        different weapon for a different purpose. the Grach is a military sidearm and the makarov once was, though is being used as a concealed carry gun due to its smaller, more streamlined design. The makarov was a inadequate military sidearm, though in a era of shifting priorities for space research and thermonuclear ICBMs, troop sidearms fell down lower on those list of priorities.

      • Lance

        Sorry W

        But the Wikipedia sources stated the same most Grach users as Spetz Naz and FSB. Most Cops and troops in Russia and in the CIS use Makarovs still. You keep trying to argue with everything I stated my sources.

      • W

        “In 2003, it was adopted as a standard sidearm for all branches of Russian military and law enforcement, alongside GSh-18 and SPS” (from Janes and Izhvesk).

        “As of 2008, it was supplied only in small numbers to selected special forces units, presumably those in the North Caucasus. In October of 2008 the Russian interior minister planned to equip more Russian police with PYa pistols. [2].” (From a random blog called “russia’s shadows” that says nothing about this “fact” in the first sentence of this paragraph)

        “But due to financial problems and the fact the Makarov is so plentiful in Russia the Makarov remains as primary Police service pistol still in Russia years later. (no citation???)”

        now do you see why it is important to actually read the sources on wikipedia? somebody reads a article, makes a generalization or assumption, then writes it to a specific article, tailored to their individual bias. Now you know why i don’t get information from wikipedia. I suggest you re-check your sources in the future (i recall telling you this previously) if you are going to tangle with me.

      • Lance

        Sorry W

        But the sources check out. The Yarigan PyA is only used in small numbers the design isn’t the best that’s why many Russian cops who don’t use Makarovs use Glocks or Berettas mad from foreign countries. Ive seen Russian Spec Ops Videos with them using Makarovs still Steve can verify this. I know you like to pick fights W but I do check and recheck my sources and you may be wrong I know you think your perfect.

      • W

        keep spinning lance. even when i point out your glaring deficiencies in reading sources, just continue sticking your fingers in your ears, shouting one imbecility after another. Russian spec ops videos??? LMFAO.

      • Lance

        Sorry my sources check out you can cry and wine when your wrong on a Issue and act like a 10 year old. Fine you can name call but several web site support my side none support yours.

    • Tinkerer

      Wait, if overpenetration is an issue, wouldn’t the spitzer-shaped, small-caliber 5.56 round have higher chances of overpenetration? Remember, no hollowpoint rounds for military use, and with the decreased velocity from such short barrels the bullet might not fragment or even deform, so it might just punch a .22 hole through your targer and end where we don’t want it.

      • W

        tipped FMJ 5.56 ammunition would have chance at overpenetrating (especially in the case of green tip), though polymer tipped wouldn’t (it actually has a significantly less chance of overpenetrating than 9mm or 40 S&W handgun ammunition). Trained police departments utilize polymer tipped ammunition in their patrol rifles, as they are excellent for neutralizing human targets and avoiding collatoral damage.

        As for the 22. caliber bullet problem, shot placement is, as it always is, everything. most military ammunition would be inadequate with a shorter barrel, though the Mk 262 round would excel.

    • Vitaliy

      I’m sorry Lance but your sources do not hold up to the scientific method and are not from official sources with the proper official source notions(Russian Federal Government, manufactures). Gunsru is an amateur website, and Wikipedia is modifiable by anyone and well known for it’s inaccuracies. If I had written any of my university physics papers with Wikipedia as my primary resource method, I would have failed my classes. Makarovs are no longer issued by my local Russian police departments due to the increasing use of body-vests by criminals who are often better armed than the police. I had some more conversation with my brother and what he could say is that Russian Security Services are all moving to reliable and simple to maintain handguns designed for advanced 9mm AP rounds to defeat body-armor up to Level 4 of protection and 9mm AP rounds that also provide devastating wound channels even when body-vests are not at play, over-penetration doesn’t seem to be an issue here as sometimes organized criminals and terrorists here will show up with RPG-7’s and PKM machine guns to fight police. He explained to me that also as most non-elite unit Russian Police officers are only issued with pistols and almost never with rifles outside of Caucasus region it is a crucial requirement for Russian Security Services to move in this direction. I don’t want to waste more of my time on this but it is always very hard to know what Russian Security Services use for small arms/ammunition unless its documented thru pictures or official releases. Most units will keep it close to their chest out of a believe not to give opponents useful knowledge.

  • mosinman

    if i were a sniper (which im not) i think this Apr would be a nice back up weapon to my rifle

  • Lance

    7.62×25 is not a old obsolete cartridge it has good ballistics. I bet you say the same for .45 auto but elite troops here and Russia cling to older calibers. Maybe you have a bias against tried and true cartridges.

    • mosinman

      its true, 7.62×25 in its base form can punch thru low level body armour. now if someone were to develop it further (for AP uses) i think it could be even more effective

  • Vitaliy

    @ Lance

    I’m sorry Lance but your sources do not hold up to the scientific method and are not from official sources with the proper official source notions(Russian Federal Government, manufactures). Gunsru is an amateur website, and Wikipedia is modifiable by anyone and well known for it’s inaccuracies. If I had written any of my university physics papers with Wikipedia as my primary resource method, I would have failed my classes. Makarovs are no longer issued by my local Russian police departments due to the increasing use of body-vests by criminals who are often better armed than the police. I had some more conversation with my brother and what he could say is that Russian Security Services are all moving to reliable and simple to maintain handguns designed for advanced 9mm AP rounds to defeat body-armor up to Level 4 of protection and 9mm AP rounds that also provide devastating wound channels even when body-vests are not at play, over-penetration doesn’t seem to be an issue here as sometimes organized criminals and terrorists here will show up with RPG-7′s and PKM machine guns to fight police. He explained to me that also as most non-elite unit Russian Police officers are only issued with pistols and almost never with rifles outside of Caucasus region it is a crucial requirement for Russian Security Services to move in this direction. I don’t want to waste more of my time on this but it is always very hard to know what Russian Security Services use for small arms/ammunition unless its documented thru pictures or official releases. Most units will keep it close to their chest out of a believe not to give opponents useful knowledge.

    • Lance

      Sorry your wrong too the Pistol your brother suppose to have never went into production and Makarovs are still in use I see them in current Army and Spetz Naz videos. You must hate Makarovs but many are still in use and there a fine small pistol. I got many sources to back me up your the one whose using hear say sayings.

    • Vitaliy

      Being that I’m studying at University, I get most of my information from the back of vodka bottles.

      • Lance

        Russia never made pistols a standard weapon its always been more of a badge of rank for officers. I can say that some Police and Spec Ops use Grach pistols. Many use Makarovs. Many Police have been buying Glocks and Berettas from Europe. I check Wikipedia links to make sure there true and the information was true I got.

        Can we agree the AK-74 is a awesome rifle?

      • 543

        LOL, Vitaly I used to “study the back of vodka bottles” too when I was at college a few years back. I guess higher education and the culture of its student body are universal in many aspects.