H&K Raided By German Police


In January the German government banned H&K from exporting any firearms to Mexico after it was alleged that they exported guns to the state police of Chiapas, Chihuahua, Guerrero and Jalisco, all of which are considered criminal organizations by the German government. H&K claimed they only exported firearms to the Mexican Defense Ministry’s central firearm purchaser in Mexico City. Yesterday police raided the H&K headquarters as well as several private homes looking to evidence that H&K bribed Mexican officials. The local reports

State police officers conducted the Thursday raid at the company’s Oberndorf corporate headquarters in Baden-Württemberg, searching the building and several nearby private homes for information about bribes the company is alleged to have paid to Mexican officials.

Those bribes are said to have resulted in weapons contracts with authorities in Mexico.

This summer it emerged that rebels in Libya were using Heckler & Koch weapons, although the company denied selling weapons to anyone in the country. German prosecutors have since launched an investigation.

[ Many thanks to Tom, John & Joel for emailing me the tip. ]



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Oh, so that explains the H&K related searches that came through Jonesblog from Baden-Württemberg in the last couple of weeks… Probably, not really… but still…

  • 543

    Hk & SIG do your self’s a favor and pack up and move your factories and skilled German workforce to the USA it’s not like both don’t already have a heavy manufacturing presence in my home sate of New Hampshire “live free or die”.

  • Buster Charlie

    Oh the irony.

    H&K doesn’t like to sully itself by selling to law abiding US civilians.

    However it’s perfectly at ease bribing officials so it sell its guns to narco terrorist that will use them to butcher up Mexican civilians.

    • Sturm44

      H&K. Because you suck. And we hate you.

      http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

      (I think this link is where it originated)

      • WoodenPlank

        H&K’s CS department is a very different animal today. Everyone I know that has had dealing with them in the past 3 or so years has had nothing but great service. While there may have been a time that HK had God-awful service, that time has gone.

    • W

      yeah continuing that “…because you suck” stupidity due to one horse’s ass posting online. haha. apparently the world’s special forces and police tactical teams acquire overrated weapons to look cool… who would have known?

      • Buster Charlie

        I guess you responded to the wrong person, Sturm44 is your man.

        I still stand by my statement. It’s disgraceful for a company to not offer their products to law abiding citizens of one country for sporting or self defense use, then bribe another country to buy their guns so it can be used to murder innocent civilians.

        The difference is, I bet the nacro terrorist pay better.

      • SoulTown

        @W

        The whole “overrated” thing has a lot to do with legions of obnoxious fanboys’ (to be fair, they are the “hipsters” at this point: everyone loves to hate them, but it’s kind of hard to find an actual specimen) outrageous claims and HK’s messed up US civ market pricing & decisionmaking (i.e. MR223 being a “precision rifle” instead of the civilian HK416 that everyone wanted to be). Their LEO and military pricing seems to be actually pretty reasonable, however.

        I still hate them, though. In a world of compromise, HK starts with the trigger. And pistol sights. And the price tag on their magazines… oh dear.

      • W

        “I guess you responded to the wrong person, Sturm44 is your man.”

        its on the same post so it doesn’t matter.

        “I still stand by my statement. It’s disgraceful for a company to not offer their products to law abiding citizens of one country for sporting or self defense use, then bribe another country to buy their guns so it can be used to murder innocent civilians.”

        this is a emotional argument lacking in facts. First of all, i’ll allow you to research US importation laws regarding weapons because they have something to do with the reason why we ended up with a SL8 and not a G36.

        Ever hear of iran-contra? or the US exporting weaponry to israel? my point is…what is your point? attempting to discredit H&K helping in “murdering innocent civilians” is hypocritical since the US exports more arms than any other country in the world. If you are basing your opinion on H&K by emotional BS, then feel free to stop buying any other firearm manufactured in the US.

        The difference is, I bet the nacro terrorist pay better.”

        Nope, absolutely incorrect. What they don’t need to buy is acquired from the mexican police/military forces. Another interesting point: handguns, smgs, rifles, machine guns, grenades, and grenade launchers are US manufactured and South Korean copies of US armaments. Other arms can be traced to neighboring southern countries. H&K arms constitute a splinter of total US derived arms confiscated. Nice try.

        “The whole “overrated” thing has a lot to do with legions of obnoxious fanboys’ (to be fair, they are the “hipsters” at this point: everyone loves to hate them, but it’s kind of hard to find an actual specimen)”

        i have never actually known or heard from a H&K fanboy. All of the people I know that praise H&K are among the most credible experts in firearms technology and close combat.

        “I still hate them, though. In a world of compromise, HK starts with the trigger. And pistol sights. And the price tag on their magazines… oh dear.”

        ugh…here we go again. Who cares about the freaking trigger (that some people loathe as “abhorrent”)! it is not a super match competition shooting handgun; it is a NATO military specification handgun with a trigger (and the entire gun itself) designed for reliability and usability in battlefield conditions. Two entirely different beasts. If you want a hair trigger, stick with your custom 1911 (though I’ll bet money that the HK 45 and MK 23 have superior accuracy than the 1911 anyways). Pistol sights? again, stick with your custom. Magazines? you often get what you pay for. H&K, in my opinion, has some of the best handgun magazines when compared to other handguns.

        I wish people would not compromise on sticking with the facts and leaving emotion out of arguments when it comes to firearms.

      • 543

        According to soultown:

        Delta Force, U.S. Navy Seals, USMC (Hk M27 IAR), U.S. Army (Hk M320 grenade launcher), CIA operators, U.S. Secret Service, DEA agents, Border Patrol agents, FBI counter-terrorism units, hundreds of local Sheriffs/Police SWAT units are all hipster hk fan boys. LOLZ 🙂

        P.S.
        W, I completely agree but reasoning with these dudes is really difficult. I would take all of them to my range if I could to try some of my Hk’s. I encountered similar ignorance at my local private gun-club until I let some of my range shooting buddies try some of my Hk’s, things have changed since then and I have converted some of them to Hk owners. I am an unashamed hipster Hk/SiG/S&W/CZ/FN/Ruger FAN BOY.

      • SoulTown

        @W

        “All of the people I know that praise H&K are among the most credible experts in firearms technology and close combat.”

        Really? Where does this supposed “universal acclaim” come from? Aside from Todd Green, who does shoot HKs regularly and love them, vast majority of professional trainers and other experts seem to think otherwise.

        LAV: He loves HK as a company, worked with them, knows the people, but his opinions about HK firearms is far from universal praise. i.e. In the HK45 interview, he said that the only thing the HK people just can’t seem to understand is good pistol trigger and good pistol sights.

        And guess what pistol he recommends for his firearms courses and general daily use? *Gasp* THE GLOCK. *GASP*

        Chris Costa & Travis Haley: Uses 1911s, M&Ps, Glocks.

        Insight Training Center: No HK dominance here.

        Gunsite: No HK dominance here, either.

        U.S. Training Center (Formerly Blackwater): Uses Glocks.

        Kyle Defoor: Uses Glocks.

        Jason Falla: Uses Glocks.

        Paul Howe: Uses Glocks. Hmm, am I sensing a trend here?

        Hilton Yam: When he compared G21 vs M&P45 vs HK45, guess what gun he favored the most? The M&P.

        Dave Savigny: Should I? Oh, what the hell.

        “Who cares about the freaking trigger (that some people loathe as “abhorrent”)! it is not a super match competition shooting handgun; it is a NATO military specification handgun with a trigger (and the entire gun itself) designed for reliability and usability in battlefield conditions. Two entirely different beasts. If you want a hair trigger, stick with your custom 1911 (though I’ll bet money that the HK 45 and MK 23 have superior accuracy than the 1911 anyways). Pistol sights? again, stick with your custom.”

        When G19s run around $500 and USP 9 and P30 run around $700-800 and $900 respectively (Impact Guns prices), I expect things to be better, not worse. You make compromises when you pay less. You shouldn’t make more compromises when you pay A LOT more.

        I have a love & hate relationship with Glocks. They are ugly. They are not the most comfortable. I hate the slide release. Mag release sucks. I still get slide bite when I slack off. The stupid trigger safety hurts my trigger finger after a long range session.

        But guess what. They’re cheap enough. They cram in most bullets. THEY FRIGGIN’ WORK. Save for 1911s, I shoot Glocks the best. They don’t feel good, but they work. The trigger and sights are not the best, but it’s good enough stock for rapid follow up shots close range. And since I don’t compete, that’s good enough for now.

        Can I deal with HK trigger and sights? Sure. It’s a training issue. It slows down my follow-up shots, and blah blah blah, but I’m not really good enough to put too much blame on the gear anyway.

        But can I deal with HK trigger and sights knowing that I could have just gotten the Glock and taken some quality classes with extra $200-400? Hmm…

        Can I stop kvetching about the HK trigger and sights and just get a trigger job & aftermarket sights? Sure. But why in the hell would I want to spend more money on a gun that I already paid premium for?

        “Magazines? you often get what you pay for. H&K, in my opinion, has some of the best handgun magazines when compared to other handguns.”

        Magazines only need to do one thing well. Feed the gun. Does HK $40 magazines do that 50% more reliably than other magazines?

        And please justify HK steel AR mags STILL going around for around 60 a pop. Hell, 20 rounders are going for 70-80!

        @543

        Do you not understand what “overrated” means? HK guns are accurate, reliable, and durable. Their LEO/Military offerings are pretty good, with more or less reasonable pricing. Their civilian offerings, however, are overpriced and not really worth the money. I feel the same way about SIG pistols as well.

        In other words, sure. Military/LEO entities buy HK because they know they are getting something very sturdy and generally very accurate, for a pretty good price. Civilians buy HK because… because… hell, they have a lot of disposable income? Because cost effectiveness is for yokels? I donno.

        Plus, what’s with you guys and the whole “universal acclaim from the operating operator ninjas” thing?

        Delta Force: Uses Glocks. Custom 1911s. Sure, HK416. They did kinda develop it, so yeah.

        USMC & Army: Hmm, few weapons out of… how many weapons on their arsenal?

        CIA operators: Again, Glock. What HK?

        USSS: Last time I checked, they use SIGs and FN guns. Based on several photographs, it’s safe to assume that their Counter Assault Team uses SR-16s as well.

        DEA: SIGs. Again. They do use the UMP40, however, but it’s a subgun. It’s 21st century, for pete’s sake.

        FBI Counter-Terrorism units: Ummm, let’s see. HRT. M4s, CQBRs, Springer 1911s. SWAT. HRT. M4s, CQBRs, Springer 1911s. Aside from some MP5s that are probably sleeping in the armory untouched, what else? Um… the PSG-1? I’m not even gonna go there.

        hundreds of local Sheriffs/Police SWAT units: aside from subguns, which are quickly becoming obsolete at this point, how much you wanna bet that any HK firearm is gonna be hideously outnumbered by Colt and Glock?

        SO… If you’re gonna name-drop, at least try to do it right. Oh, and you somehow failed to mention the mother of all HK namedrops–DEVGRU.

        They use HK416, MP7A1(pics show them w/ Aimpoint T-1), and they adopted HK45C as their silenced .45 option.

        So yeah. When you try to “reason” with people, maybe if helps to be able to understand what they are saying and think about what you are saying. And PLEASE. Stop with the name-dropping. It’s so predictable it’s not even funny.

      • SoulTown

        With all that said, I’ll probably buy a HK45C if I can afford it–with a threaded barrel for extra ninja-cred. But it’s like buying a custom 1911 for me. I’m not gonna delude myself by saying it is a practical decision. It’s not, at least for me.

      • W

        “Really? Where does this supposed “universal acclaim” come from? Aside from Todd Green, who does shoot HKs regularly and love them, vast majority of professional trainers and other experts seem to think otherwise.”

        hmmm, does larry vickers and ken hackathorn’s contribution to the development of the HK 45 ring a bell (not to mention larry’s testing of the HK 45)?

        The naval special warfare command? USSOCOM?

        the wide variety of military and police units (especially NATO nations) using USP variants?

        nobody is saying H&K is the end all of all weapons systems. I am saying they are widely used by these units for a reason.

        “And guess what pistol he recommends for his firearms courses and general daily use? *Gasp* THE GLOCK. *GASP*”

        nobody is saying the H&K is used above everything else. Glocks are fine handguns and there is a reason why there are widely used.

        “Chris Costa & Travis Haley: Uses 1911s, M&Ps, Glocks.”

        larry vickers also uses 1911’s, though has provided a reasonable analysis of the system’s limitations compared to other handguns. Again, my point is that H&K’s aren’t the only thing being used, though there is a reason why they are being used.

        “Insight Training Center: No HK dominance here.

        Gunsite: No HK dominance here, either.

        U.S. Training Center (Formerly Blackwater): Uses Glocks.

        Kyle Defoor: Uses Glocks.

        Jason Falla: Uses Glocks.

        Paul Howe: Uses Glocks. Hmm, am I sensing a trend here?”

        im sensing a straw man argument. nothing more.

        “Hilton Yam: When he compared G21 vs M&P45 vs HK45, guess what gun he favored the most? The M&P.”

        Another straw man.

        “Dave Savigny: Should I? Oh, what the hell.”

        and yet another. thank you for proving my point. nobody is denying that other handguns are used. Once again, I am saying there is a reason why H&K’s are still being used. And the 1911 and M&P? those weapons aren’t enjoying the market like H&K, Glock, and SIG when it comes to military and police sales.

        “When G19s run around $500 and USP 9 and P30 run around $700-800 and $900 respectively (Impact Guns prices), I expect things to be better, not worse. You make compromises when you pay less. You shouldn’t make more compromises when you pay A LOT more.”

        You are comparing apples to oranges. The G19 is a 9mm handgun, though to be fair, the 45 is of comparable price. I don’t know what you are talking about “running worse”, but the H&K 45 is the highest quality handgun of its category. They are typically 1,000 dollars and considering they are over engineered and near indestructible, you get what you pay for. I can understand this argument when comparing 1911 handguns but for H&K’s it is a fallacy. A USP can run anywhere from 650-800 bucks.

        “But guess what. They’re cheap enough. They cram in most bullets. THEY FRIGGIN’ WORK. Save for 1911s, I shoot Glocks the best. They don’t feel good, but they work. The trigger and sights are not the best, but it’s good enough stock for rapid follow up shots close range. And since I don’t compete, that’s good enough for now.”

        and nobody is saying glocks are terrible. like i said, i love them, despite features that others claim are “faults”. Combat handguns are not supposed to have heavenly, hair triggers.

        “Can I deal with HK trigger and sights? Sure. It’s a training issue. It slows down my follow-up shots, and blah blah blah, but I’m not really good enough to put too much blame on the gear anyway.

        But can I deal with HK trigger and sights knowing that I could have just gotten the Glock and taken some quality classes with extra $200-400? Hmm…”

        It depends on what you want to spend your money on but you won’t see H&K’s going away anytime soon. There is a reason for that.

        “Can I stop kvetching about the HK trigger and sights and just get a trigger job & aftermarket sights? Sure. But why in the hell would I want to spend more money on a gun that I already paid premium for?”

        You don’t have to because, as is, the H&K’s are outstanding combat handguns. Like i said before, if you want a “premium” handgun, get a customized 1911. Special Operations teams in military and police forces don’t have time for “premium” features, but focus on functionality and simplicity whenever possible.

        “Magazines only need to do one thing well. Feed the gun. Does HK $40 magazines do that 50% more reliably than other magazines?”

        Actually, magazines make or break a weapon’s reliability. they must last, be able to survive harsh conditions, adequately fit inside the weapon, and seat cartridges properly. There is a lot more to them than just “feeding the gun”.

        “And please justify HK steel AR mags STILL going around for around 60 a pop. Hell, 20 rounders are going for 70-80!”

        haha, i cannot justify the price for those magazines when lighter polymers are available for a fraction of the cost. I suppose its due to R&D costs and that they are made of steel, though i cannot say exactly. I wouldn’t waste my money on them.

        @543

        “Do you not understand what “overrated” means? HK guns are accurate, reliable, and durable. Their LEO/Military offerings are pretty good, with more or less reasonable pricing. Their civilian offerings, however, are overpriced and not really worth the money. I feel the same way about SIG pistols as well.”

        I disagree that H&K guns are overrated. H&K really does the homework when engineering and developing them. I don’t recall anybody saying they are perfect though.

        “In other words, sure. Military/LEO entities buy HK because they know they are getting something very sturdy and generally very accurate, for a pretty good price. Civilians buy HK because… because… hell, they have a lot of disposable income? Because cost effectiveness is for yokels? I donno.”

        see above.

        “Plus, what’s with you guys and the whole “universal acclaim from the operating operator ninjas” thing?”

        these “operator ninjas” seem to have tad bit more credibility than most that post on the internet. I take it you have never encountered real professionals before…(though i don’t want to assume).

        “Delta Force: Uses Glocks. Custom 1911s. Sure, HK416. They did kinda develop it, so yeah.”

        that still doesn’t change the fact that they also use USPs and MK 23s. What is your point?

        “USMC & Army: Hmm, few weapons out of… how many weapons on their arsenal?”

        You shouldn’t get me started on the disingenuous justifications for procuring weapons in the regular US military…

        “CIA operators: Again, Glock. What HK?”

        LOL. sure whatever you say.

        “USSS: Last time I checked, they use SIGs and FN guns. Based on several photographs, it’s safe to assume that their Counter Assault Team uses SR-16s as well.

        DEA: SIGs. Again. They do use the UMP40, however, but it’s a subgun. It’s 21st century, for pete’s sake.

        FBI Counter-Terrorism units: Ummm, let’s see. HRT. M4s, CQBRs, Springer 1911s. SWAT. HRT. M4s, CQBRs, Springer 1911s. Aside from some MP5s that are probably sleeping in the armory untouched, what else? Um… the PSG-1? I’m not even gonna go there.

        hundreds of local Sheriffs/Police SWAT units: aside from subguns, which are quickly becoming obsolete at this point, how much you wanna bet that any HK firearm is gonna be hideously outnumbered by Colt and Glock?

        SO… If you’re gonna name-drop, at least try to do it right. Oh, and you somehow failed to mention the mother of all HK namedrops–DEVGRU.

        They use HK416, MP7A1(pics show them w/ Aimpoint T-1), and they adopted HK45C as their silenced .45 option.

        “So yeah. When you try to “reason” with people, maybe if helps to be able to understand what they are saying and think about what you are saying. And PLEASE. Stop with the name-dropping. It’s so predictable it’s not even funny.”

        the only reasoning you have is trying to argue against the popularity and ubiquity of H&K firearms. Sure, other weapons are used, primarily because different units and organizations have different needs. Here’s a word of advice: how about obtaining information from other sources besides the world’s bathroom wall, the internet. pot meet kettle, the anti-H&K crowds started with the name calling, though that doesn’t matter. the facts speak for themselves. I don’t recall anybody saying that only H&Ks are used, so i have no idea where in the hell you came up with this conclusion. It doesn’t surprise me that you have resorted to straw men and drawing to wrong conclusions.

      • W

        “W, I completely agree but reasoning with these dudes is really difficult. I would take all of them to my range if I could to try some of my Hk’s. I encountered similar ignorance at my local private gun-club until I let some of my range shooting buddies try some of my Hk’s, things have changed since then and I have converted some of them to Hk owners. I am an unashamed hipster Hk/SiG/S&W/CZ/FN/Ruger FAN BOY.”

        funny how that works. Despite my experience in the active duty US Army soldier, armorer, and DOD civilian, im just a “fanboy” 😉

  • AKMSF

    The funny thing is they were probably raided by police using H&K weapons…

  • Fast UND Furiuzz.

    • Ken

      Schnell und Wütend.

      Eric Holder ist Deutscher?

  • Komrad

    H&K has a history of doing stuff like this and they never get more than a slap on the wrist. Germany needs to actually punish H&K if they want them to stop, but that wont happen.
    Personally, I don’t care for H&K. Too expensive and too difficult to find their good stuff that isn’t butchered to make it civilian legal. They put out a good gun, but stuff like this makes me wonder about their moral standards. I’d much rather buy CZ.

    • 543

      Komrad I don’t know on what planet you live but HK, COLT, Beretta, GLOCK and many others regularly sell small arms to the Mexican Department of Defense which is responsible for the approval/transfer of small arms in Mexico. Most of the Mexican SWAT teams are equipped with COLT M4’s paid for by us the American tax payer. HK didn’t sell to the cartels but to the Mexican DoD which in turn transferred the weapons in question to the various Mexican State Police agencies who’s corrupt police officers have a tendency to “loose” up to 94% of their issued small arms. This is how most of the cartels small arms and fully automatic weapons are procured by purchasing them from the corupt Mexican police not from the U.S. or Arizona gun stores as Eric Holder and the Obama Administration would like us to believe. And your statement about CZ is crock of complete BS as CZ has supplied and continues to supply small-arms to some of the worst human rights abusing nations on the planet. CZ has sold weapons to conflict zones like the Middle East, Sierra Leone, Charles Taylor’s Liberia, Congo, various Latin American countries with active records of human rights abuse like indirectly to the Colombian right-wing paramilitary guerrillas.

      • AZRon

        Couldn’t have said it better myself.

        I always love the HK bashing in the responses on this site (usually from people that have never owned one), but I must admit that considering an arms companys’ “moral” stance is a new one on me.

      • Komrad

        I was not commenting on CZ’s moral standards but on the fact that I just like them more as they are also good quality but with a more affordable price tag. I also was not aware of their similar actions.

        Maybe other people just don’t get caught, but it seems like there is a post here every five or six months about H&K breaking Germany’s rules about selling weapons to foreign countries. Perhaps I need to reevaluate my statement.

    • W

      yeah, lets forget the fact that we (the US) supply M1 tanks, M2 bradleys, F16 fighters, and paladin howitzers to saudi arabia, which is known to be repressive (remember where most of the 9/11 hijackers hailed from?). This article offers a compelling argument that the weapons that fall into the drug cartels hands (especially automatic weapons) indeed come from a outside source and not gun shops in the united states.

  • Aurelien

    Well it’s not only H&K. Most combat operations by the European Union and/or unplanned regime change in 3rd world countries are opposed by the germans because they suppy equipement to the bad guys.
    Like Siemens providing Iran and North Korea with parts and systems for their nuclear programs. Or Lybia with defense systems.

    The German industry works like some bond-esque supervilain conglomerate.

    • G3

      A statement like yours is totaly unfounded and I’m asuming your french based on your remark about our German industry. If I’m not mistaken France supplied Mirage fighter jets to Iraq, sold anti-aircraft missles that shot down nato airplanes during the golf war, supplied weapons to brutal dictatorships, repeatdely tried to sell dassault rafeale to Gahdafi’s Libya as late as late as last year. And acording to the UN france is the 4th largest weapons exporter on earth, that’s a lot of. Military hardware going to not so nice regimes. Every country and corporations that deals in weapons has.

      • Aurelien

        I’m not saying French arms manufacturers are any better than the average.
        But Siemens sold nuclear powerplant parts to Iran (thats a fact), and the same parts were later seen in North Korea. And when NATO started to bomb Lybia, Germany (and Belgium) stated that they would not, because they sold the defense systems to Ghaddafi.

        Iraq is another question : everybody sold them weapons after Iran was overtaken by the Mullahs. France, Germany, US…

        Anything done during the Cold War… Thats much more complex. That was western-backed dictators against easter-backed dictators…

        I’m not doing some gratuitous Germany-bashing, just saying that H&K are not the only ones doing that, they are just the ones that seemed to get caught.

    • W

      any and all members of the western military industrial complex have been, or still are, guilty some time or another selling arms to regimes known to be dictatorships, though these regimes are pro-US or pro-Europe. Intervening is definitely a conflict of interest.

  • Domestic Squirrel

    I wonder if the cartels truly appreciate the engineering craftsmanship of the guns they’re unfortunately using.

  • Matt Gregg

    Why would it be a bad thing for the Libyan rebels to be using H&K weapons? I’d be proud to see American made weapons in the hands of freedom fighters.

    • mosinman

      i sure wouldnt

    • Clodboy

      Problem is, the Libyan rebels most likely liberated those guns from caches belonging to Qadaffi’s forces. Knowing that these guns may have been imported by Qadaffi as a tool for oppressing his people makes the whole affair much less of a thing to be proud of.

      • Mobious

        Also considerable are the “mercenaries” that fought for a little and subsequently left after knowing they wouldn’t get paid any better. They could be members from anywhere in the world, getting weapons in their own way…

  • Caseless

    Weird. This is equivalent of raiding Colt here, or Russian police raiding Izhmash, or Belgium police raiding FN Herstal.
    According to the movie Lord of War, the U.S. supplies the most hardware to dictatorships around the world, either directly or indirectly. 🙂

    • Burst

      It’s possible. First thing you need, though, is a functional definition of a dictatorship.
      China supplies the most blatant autarchies, I’d guess.
      But toss in one-party systems and monarchies, and it gets murkier.

  • Lance

    Give the weapons to Libyan Islamic Terrorist that’s OK. Sell them to Mexico CALL THE POLICE! LOL. Proof of the screwed up mind set in Europe.

    • Clodboy

      Lance: No, selling the guns to Libyans wasn’t considered “ok”. H&K themselves released a statement that they never, ever shipped G36s to Libya. And chances are they didn’t – they would have been smart enough to use an intermediate buyer. Like back when Iran and Iraq tried to wipe out their way-too-similarly-sounding neighbour, the Austrian company Noricum stepped in to provide both sides with hundreds of quality GNH-45 howitzers – some of which had to take a detour through Libya to end up in Iran, while others crossed the rather literal Jordan on their way to Iraq, because the whole thing was, in the end, still quite illegal.

      As for the Mexican police (well, not the Mexican police in general, but that in the remote provinces), they have an abysmal human rights record, and are technically involved in a civil war where – in the case of the Chiapas conflict – they might not necessarily be considered “the good guys”.

      While the German government (and for that matter most other European governments) like to take the moral high ground, the Realpolitik (Realwirtschaft?) dictates that occasionally, yeah, they may have to turn a blind eye to corporations selling to certain… less scrupulous countries. Of course, sometimes you reach a point where these dealings are actually illegal and, worse yet, provoke the ire of potential voters, which is when the government has to step in out of pure self-interest.

    • Mobious

      Sure, that’s more screwed up than going to war, afterwards leaving behind good loads of weapons and ammo behind for the locals and runners to splurge on and wonder why there’s no peace. :p

  • 543

    @Buster Charlie/Surm44

    Every handgun offered by hk is available for civilian retail in the U.S. with the HK45C/HK45 and MR556(HK416)being partially made in the USA, and at next years shoot show HK is releasing the MR308(HK417) also mostly Made in the USA. Arguments like “…because you suck” or falsehoods like hk “not wanting to sell to U.S. civilians” are asinine and ignorant and usually reserved for the dumbos of Glocktalk. Plus are you guys actually aware that BATFE regulations have specific import bans of non-sporting rifles like civilian semi-auto mil-spec versions of the MP5/G3/HK33 family of rifles and language of the mentioned regulations makes it impossible to import semi-auto mil-spec G36/HK416/Hk417 rifles unless their made here in the USA. Blaming a company for not being able to import it’s rifle/SMG products into the U.S. for civilian use because of dumb-ass U.S. laws/regulations speaks of the general ignorance of your comments. I’m guessing you don’t even own an hk by your comments.

    • W

      543, thank you. Funny little things are they? those darn gun laws… 😉

  • Joseph

    Complicated situation. All I can say is that if HK ever needs legit easy going money they just gotta sell to us U.S. Covilian Good-guys 😀

  • 543

    @ Soultown

    Insinuating that Hk owners are “obnoxious fanboys”, “hipsters”, “looking for ninja credibility”, or that we are “loved to be hated” doesn’t win you points in my book. That’s the exact kind of terminology I’ve seen by the ignorant gun-experts on internet forums by verbatim, viciously bashing everything non-striker fired/non-4lbs. trigger pull/non DI AR-15 and how even taken to an extreme some would like to use in particular “Hk fanboys” for target practice. If Glocks are your primary sidearm preference I respect your choice(I own a G20SF for hunting), likewise have some respect if I like Hk or any other gunmaker, we live in a free country were we can make choices and I earned my right of choice. I make my firearms preferences out of personal experience. I don’t trash gun companies out of principle(2nd Amendment, hating liberals do that), nor the purchases of its customers who by choice use their hard earned dollars to pay more or less for a firearm that might not be acceptable to you or me by which ever criteria they used. Peace,

    • SoulTown

      I wasn’t insinuating. Did you see me trashing Todd Green for using and loving the hell out of his HKs? No. That guy knows what he’s doing. Hell, the “obnoxious HK fanboys” I’m referring to don’t even own guns most of the time. They have a lot more in common with the people who leave stupid Call of Duty comments on every gun video I see.

      See, I was born in a country where gun ownership is highly, highly prohibited–and if you’re in a place where people can’t shoot guns regularly, your understanding of firearms tend to steer towards fanboy-ism and idolization. And HK has a lot of guns on their product line and all the myths with it (Mk23, MP5, PSG-1, etc), to attract that kind of myopic attention. The original CZ75 and P210, all great guns, are victims of that tendency as well. I used to be that way before I came to the States and started shooting, and I see a lot of Americans who don’t really shoot fall for the same trap as well.

      The HK owners I know and met in person have been generally good-humored people. They are well aware of the issues with the brand–and like to have a laugh about the horrible triggers and subpar sights. Would I call them “obnoxious fanboys?” No. Will I stop giving them hard time about HK trigger? As long as it is in good fun, no.

      P.S. The hipster comparison was actually meant to characterize “the HK fanboy” archtype as more or less an artificial concept. People love to hate on hipsters, and you may find someone who fit that description somewhat, but you never really see an actual hipster that embodies all the characteristics–because “hipster” is more of a concept than a real person. I lived in Seattle for five years, and as a liberal-minded person, I went to places that was supposed to be filled with hipsters. Of course, I didn’t see a single “hipster” that really fits the description. That is how I feel about the “HK fanboy” archtype that HK bashers (yeah, including me, even though I try to be fair)

      P.S.2. On a lighter note. One reason I would never call HK fans “hipsters”: HK is too mainstream. I can, however, see hipsters clinging on to something like the HiPoint (“so underrated”).

      P.S.3. I was not joking when I said I wanted a HK45C; I have the strangest attraction to that gun…

  • Arifonzie

    Everybody calm down , jeez.
    Everybody gets so worked up over this.
    Hk is the best…. Ok are we done yet?

    • W

      the problem seems to be people chasing nonexistent phantoms and getting offended when somebody calls them out when posting garbage. Why use facts though when you can just lash out and hope nobody calls you out?

  • SoulTown

    @W

    You seem to be at a loss; let me summarize it for you.

    Claim: HKs enjoy “popularity and ubiquity” among world’s elite units.

    Answer: Since this is not the 1990s anymore… yes but not really. In fact, as I have demonstrated, half the names 543 dropped don’t really use HK weapons anymore. (and Delta using USPs and HK23s? Even SEALs don’t use HK23 anymore outside of diver units. Wow, where did that come from?)

    Plus, namedropping SOF units that use the weapon is not entirely relevant to the context of the civilian gun owner. Unless that person is burning through hundreds of thousands of rounds through strict daily training regimen.

    Claim: There is a reason why world’s elite units are using HKs.

    Answer: Because HK LEO/military pricing is actually reasonable, compared to insane US civ pricing? Their pistols are expensive. They STILL sell SL8s for 2100 a pop. That’s SR-16 money. And 10 round magazines for it go for 60! Oh, and the USC…

    Claim: HK guns are not overpriced. You get what you pay for. They’re overengineered and nearly indestructible.

    Answer: Right. See above. And we have reached a somewhat of a equilibrium in firearms reliability. HKs may be reliable as hell, but they’re not all that special compared to similar offerings from other companies–M&Ps(See Todd Green’s stress test), Glocks… of course, they are in price, though!

    Claim: My comparison of G19s with USPs with P30s is unfair, because HK45 is more appropriate…

    Answer: What? I compare a 9mm handgun with other two 9mm handguns with similar capacity, but I’m comparing apples to oranges?

    This is getting tedious.

    I’ll repeat myself, for the last time.

    1. HK delivers CONSISTENT reliability, durability, and accuracy. They are good guns. They aren’t that special, though.

    2. They have problems in the ergonomics department. (Even LAV says so explicitly) They got better, but they’re not all there.

    3. HK’s LEO/military pricing is pretty reasonable.

    4. That is why LEO/military buy them.

    5. However, HK’s civilian pricing is not reasonable.

    6. And HKs have sold and continues to sell some of the worst overpriced nightmarish contraptions known to man under their badge. (SL8? USC??)

    7. Therefore, for US civilians, they don’t make sense practically. They may be $800 expensive(meaning, there may be legitimate business reasons to price it that way), but are they $800 good? No. So in that sense, yes, they are “overrated.”

    P.S. The SOF guys roughly fall into two categories: people who work with what they’re given, and people who are gun nuts. And their gun nuts tend to be just as opinionated as ours are. Hell, I know of an SOF guy who swore by his HK and completely trashed 1911s as obsolete, overpriced junks.

    P.S.2. Yes, the internet can be a source of some rubbish information, but as long as you pay attention to what your sources are and bother to cross-check, it’s a great tool. It’s harder to find first-hand opinions of experts without the internet.

    • W

      “Since this is not the 1990s anymore… yes but not really. In fact, as I have demonstrated, half the names 543 dropped don’t really use HK weapons anymore. (and Delta using USPs and HK23s? Even SEALs don’t use HK23 anymore outside of diver units. Wow, where did that come from?)”

      yes but not really? let me clarify that with you: no. In the 1990’s we were not involved in two major wars, subsequent heavy use of special operations forces, or national security threats that exist now. the military was scaling down following the end of the Cold War. So you’re telling me that the new variant of the HK 45, in the case of the compact variant, is not used by the naval special warfare command? if you say no, you are wrong. plain and simple. Mk 23’s are still in use with SOCOM and USPs are still used by various American police tactical teams, despite the new renaissance of polymer handguns following the post 9/11 era. end of discussion.

      “Plus, namedropping SOF units that use the weapon is not entirely relevant to the context of the civilian gun owner. Unless that person is burning through hundreds of thousands of rounds through strict daily training regimen.”

      how is it not relevant? their use by these units means that the platform is tried and true. The fact that credible experts utilize a brand of handgun makes a impression on me and others that purchase firearms. Credibility and reputation is essential when it comes to purchasing a new handgun.

      “Because HK LEO/military pricing is actually reasonable, compared to insane US civ pricing? Their pistols are expensive. They STILL sell SL8s for 2100 a pop. That’s SR-16 money. And 10 round magazines for it go for 60! Oh, and the USC…”

      H&K cannot fairly compete in the US civilian gun market because of united states federal law regarding firearms imports. H&K pistols, which are tactical handguns, are just as expensive as comparable tactical handguns offered by SIG and FN not to mention equivalent 1911 copies (kimber, wilson, colt, and others). That is one of the contributing factors as to why Glocks are popular. There are many justifications to H&K’s pricing.

      “See above. And we have reached a somewhat of a equilibrium in firearms reliability. HKs may be reliable as hell, but they’re not all that special compared to similar offerings from other companies–M&Ps(See Todd Green’s stress test), Glocks… of course, they are in price, though!”

      Well, I’m not sure what your experiences as a armorer or gunsmith are, but there are discernible differences between H&K (especially newer variants) and competitors like the M&P, SIG, and Glock, especially when using higher powered cartridges. Compare differences in metallurgy, engineering, recoil reduction, internal design, and accuracy, and you will realize why H&K’s carry a “premium” price tag (even though comparable “tactical”-grade handguns from FN and SIG are equivalent in price, even with the 9mm variants).

      “Therefore, for US civilians, they don’t make sense practically. They may be $800 expensive(meaning, there may be legitimate business reasons to price it that way), but are they $800 good? No. So in that sense, yes, they are “overrated.””

      In your opinion, they are “not 800$” good, but many, including myself, will disagree with you. Again, comparing tactical-grade H&K’s with run-of-the-mill Glocks in pricing are unfair, especially with the case examples i have provided from FN and SIG. Its interesting how I never hear about how unreasonable SIG tactical P226’s are, but hear few same accusations about H&K. I sense a bias.

      I digress, the only complaint I have heard of ergonomics was from the USP, which has a larger grip compared to other handguns. The newer variant addresses this issue with a more ergonomic grip and they still retained the lever-style magazine release, which is vastly superior to the push-button style that has been used since the turn of the century.

      “P.S. The SOF guys roughly fall into two categories: people who work with what they’re given, and people who are gun nuts. And their gun nuts tend to be just as opinionated as ours are. Hell, I know of an SOF guy who swore by his HK and completely trashed 1911s as obsolete, overpriced junks.”

      and your experience with SOF extends how??? (LOL). The difference between a SOF “gun nut” (I use the more correct term “professional”) and a civilian “gun nut”, is SOF have immeasurable experience training and applying their firearms, more so in the case of combat operations. I’m sure DEVGRU and Delta Force use H&K 416’s just because of the brand name (hahahaha)…

      “P.S.2. Yes, the internet can be a source of some rubbish information, but as long as you pay attention to what your sources are and bother to cross-check, it’s a great tool. It’s harder to find first-hand opinions of experts without the internet.”

      I believe the term is “PPS”, not that it matters. The fact is that there are those that don’t require the internet to acquire information from such units (i am one of them), which is a good thing. I believe such information about weapons and capability has no business on the internet, but that is my opinion and why get into a free speech debate? The internet is known to host some of the worst disinformation out there and there are very few websites that try to be objective and informative (‘the firearm blog’ is one of the few). Firearms are a scientific and technological concept, thus, the scientific method must be applied to firearms rather than emotional arguments.

      • SoulTown

        @W

        You have continuously demonstrated that you manage to put strange, extra stuff between what I actually wrote, not to mention the fact that you try to avoid acknowledging your misstatements. Statements like these:

        “So you’re telling me that the new variant of the HK 45, in the case of the compact variant, is not used by the naval special warfare command?”

        – I never said that.

        “if you say no, you are wrong. plain and simple. Mk 23′s are still in use with SOCOM and USPs are still used by various American police tactical teams, despite the new renaissance of polymer handguns following the post 9/11 era. end of discussion.”

        – You specifically stated Delta uses USPs and Mk23s. There are very few people within SOCOM that use Mk23s, and wow, Delta is a police tactical team now?

        “H&K cannot fairly compete in the US civilian gun market because of united states federal law regarding firearms imports. H&K pistols, which are tactical handguns, are just as expensive as comparable tactical handguns offered by SIG and FN not to mention equivalent 1911 copies (kimber, wilson, colt, and others). That is one of the contributing factors as to why Glocks are popular. There are many justifications to H&K’s pricing.”

        – Hmm, did I not say that there may be ligitimate business reasons for HKs high price? Funny how FN managed that just fine, though. They sell civ versions of P90 and F2000, not to mention both variants of SCAR, no problem, but no, unfair conditions prevent HK! And no, 9mm versions of FNP and FNX run around 500-600. Are they not “tactical” enough? Really?

        “I’m sure DEVGRU and Delta Force use H&K 416′s just because of the brand name (hahahaha)…”

        – Cheap strawman. Can you formulate an argument without namedropping a [insert tier 1 outfit here], and [insert niche firearm by HK here]? Is it possible?

        “The internet is known to host some of the worst disinformation out there and there are very few websites that try to be objective and informative (‘the firearm blog’ is one of the few). Firearms are a scientific and technological concept, thus, the scientific method must be applied to firearms rather than emotional arguments.”

        – And this was after how I talked about the need to vet the source and cross-check information…

        Here’s how I use the internet for firearms information. Any first-hand or second-hand information from reputable, vetted experts and industry professionals with actual name, I generally take them as reliable information. Anything else, I try to cross check them.

        Anyway, we’re done here. I wouldn’t bother going through your other factual mistakes, and I’m sure as hell not getting into a pissing match over your experience and credibility & verifiabilty of such. Just not going there.

      • W

        “You have continuously demonstrated that you manage to put strange, extra stuff between what I actually wrote, not to mention the fact that you try to avoid acknowledging your misstatements. Statements like these:”

        which misstatements are those? i’m curious. You are completely ignoring my original point, which is: H&K weapons remain in service with elite units despite the introduction of other weaponry and are continued to be purchased by american civilian gun owners that want premium, tactical-grade weaponry that have been rigorously tested in combat and training conditions.

        nowhere did i say that H&K weapons are the end all of firearms design…nowhere. I’m am simply saying there is a compelling reason for the price of H&K firearms.

        “You specifically stated Delta uses USPs and Mk23s. There are very few people within SOCOM that use Mk23s, and wow, Delta is a police tactical team now?”

        Yes i did state that and they continue using those weapons, despite other names being reintroduced into their arms inventories. I’ll also give you another opportunity to re-read by statement because it implies nothing whatsoever that Delta is a tactical police team.

        – Hmm, did I not say that there may be ligitimate business reasons for HKs high price? Funny how FN managed that just fine, though.”

        That would be a incorrect comparison, as the SCAR and FN handguns are manufactured in the United States. Most H&K weaponry is manufactured in Germany.

        “They sell civ versions of P90 and F2000, not to mention both variants of SCAR, no problem, but no, unfair conditions prevent HK! And no, 9mm versions of FNP and FNX run around 500-600. Are they not “tactical” enough? Really?”

        Like I said before, FN has a larger manufacturing infrastructure in the United States than H&K. the P90 and F2000 are unique weapons that aren’t exactly offered at “discount” prices. New concepts will cost more, predictably. The FN P Tactical 45 ACP costs anywhere from 1000-1100. comparable to any other tactical handgun.

        “Cheap strawman. Can you formulate an argument without namedropping a [insert tier 1 outfit here], and [insert niche firearm by HK here]? Is it possible?”

        If you knew the meaning of a strawman, my comment about those units using the H&K 416 is relevant (no original point was twisted), due to the fact that the weapon was thoroughly tested by them and continues to be in service, despite your apparent assumptions that H&K is overrated. My point is that there is a reason why they are used and continue to be used, despite other products being available. I believe you are misunderstanding what I am posting. I’ll say again, for one last time, there is a reason why H&K products cost what they do. Manufacturing, R&D, and exporting a product to cross the Atlantic into the US is a more complicated and expensive process than acquiring US-manufactured products.

        “Here’s how I use the internet for firearms information. Any first-hand or second-hand information from reputable, vetted experts and industry professionals with actual name, I generally take them as reliable information. Anything else, I try to cross check them.”

        Well, that would be the correct way to acquire firearms information.

        “Anyway, we’re done here. I wouldn’t bother going through your other factual mistakes, and I’m sure as hell not getting into a pissing match over your experience and credibility & verifiabilty of such. Just not going there.”

        please point out these “other factual mistakes”, i’m eagerly awaiting to see them. If you don’t want to get into a pissing match, then stop instigating and antagonizing in a desperate attempt to derail facts obtained from credible sources and subject matter experts.

  • Ted

    Soultown if you don’t like Hk just say it, if you have a problem with Hk customers that’s fine too, people will always get defensive if you attack their gun choices, so don’t, especially at an range in America. Spare us your expert opinion too along with W. Including what you know what Special Forces prefer along with any other posters. And if your bothered by Americans buying from companies you don’t like respect that people have different preferences and requirements or more dough, you may not like Hk pricing, triggers or its sights or what ever else but we live in a free country were Americans have the freedom of choice to spend as they see fit however irrational it may be. I’m a old school revolver guy who’s has paid more for a 6 shot revolver than what two brand spanking new custom 1911 go for, is that rational hell no, but I have the choice as a freedom loving American and if you don’t like it go back where came from instead of nanying other American gun owners on what they like or should own according to you. If you showed up at any range in my area pointing out unasked, the flaws on guns of other members or gave impromptu shooting advice to other shooters you would be politely asked to leave.

  • Tim

    What B.S. they have an elegation and then they all out on raids on H&K….. meanwhile, in the U.S., there is evidence the ATF supplied guns to Mexicans and a Border Partrol agent dies, and no there’s hardly any heat.