Springfield Armory XDm 3.8 Review
NOTE: To get up-to-date pricing & to purchase this pistol & ammunition, please click this link to visit Guns For Sale: 9MM Ammo
The Springfield Armory XD started out life in Croatia in the early 1990’s as the HS 2000. HS Produkt created the design, which is used by the Croatian police and Army. In 2002 Springfield Armory began negotiations with HS Produkt for licensing rights in the USA.
There were a few modifications to the design for western use but the basic design remained the same. Springfield changed the name to the XD9 or “Extreme Duty 9”. In 2006 the XD was named Handgun of the Year followed in 2009 by the XDm.
As with all XDm models they are striker fired with several safety features. It has a drop safety, trigger safety and the safety I like the most the grip safety that is very much like a 1911 grip safety. For a 1911 guy like myself this is especially welcome.
I have an XDm in a 4.5 barrel so when this 3.8 came in I was familiar with it. The 3.8 did come with night sights while mine has three dot sights. Some news for those considering one of these pistols is the fact that Springfield is running another special offering extra magazines and accessories.
When it comes to polymer pistols I’ve never been a big fan. The XDm is the exception to that opinion. The shape and angle of the grip have a lot to do with it. More than anything else is the grip safety. I’ve read way too many instances of AD’s with Glocks.
In fact I was present for one. There were forty five officers standing in the PD’s hallway waiting to go in for roll call when one of the officers was adjusting his leather gear. When he placed the Glock back in the holster a strap on the holster caught the trigger and bang! Outside of powder burns to his pants, a divot in the floor and a bunch of rattled officers nobody was injured. This is not an isolated incident. Even though I’m retired from police work I still receive email newsletters that document AD’s with injuries. Now I know many of you like Glocks, which is fine, and I’m by no means criticizing anyones choice. Just train with it often and choose your holster with care.
Other nice features of the XDm is the red pin which protrudes from the rear of the slide indicating the striker is cocked. The top of the slide has a small steel ramp that raises up indicating a chambered round. These can both be seen or in low light felt easily. I especially like the ambidextrous magazine release. Being able to eject the magazine with your index finger or thumb of your right hand is a good idea I wish all pistols had. Using your middle finger or index finger keeps me from modifying my grip when changing magazines. At least for me it seems faster as well.
The measured trigger pull on this example came in at 4.7 pounds. The trigger is also a departure from most striker fired pistols with a short reset and a crisp break.
Caliber: 9MM
Magazines: 2 – 19 Round, Stainless Steel 1 – 13 Round Compact,SS
1 – 19 Round w/X-TensionTM (USPAT.7191556) ,SS
Barrel: 3.8” Steel, Melonite®,
Fully Supported Ramp
Sights: Dovetail Front and Rear (Steel) 3-Dot
Trigger Pull: 5.5 – 7.7 lbs
Frame : Black Polymer
Slide: Forged Steel
Overall Length: 7″
Height: 5.6″
Weight w/ empty mag: 27.5oz
Available colors: Black, Bi-Tone SS/Black
Sights for the XDm come in the standard three dot or as I mentioned night sights. A new addition are fiber optic sights which have certainly become popular on just about any pistol you can name. In addition the XDm 3.8 comes in a compact version which holds 13+1 rounds with the standard magazine while this model I tested holds 19+1 rounds. That is one heck of a lot of bullets! There’s just one problem trying to load those 19 rounds. It’s hard to load the magazine to capacity without using the loader. I also never load more than 18 rounds because with 19 rounds in the magazine I can’t get the magazine to eject. It’s just too tightly fit for the magazine release to work no matter how hard you push.
After handling this model I have to say if I were to buy one I would get the compact. Holding 16+1 rounds will get the job done and will be much easier to conceal with the shorter grip. You always have the option of using the extended magazine in the compact increasing the number of rounds available.
The slide cuts are better than the older XD. The chevron shape on the XDm is easier to manipulate than the vertical cuts of the original. I prefer the slide shape to the standard XD as well. If for no other reason it looks a lot better!
For those who have handled the XDm’s your familiar with the light/laser mount and aggressive grip shape which provides a more secure grip if your hands are damp. There is also a dimple in the upper frame to index your thumb on. One gripe I’ve always had with the Glock is the extreme grip angle. The XD has a grip angle much closer to the 1911 making it a natural pointer. The XDm also comes with two extra backstrap inserts to customize the size of the grip to fit the shooter.
Range Time
I took Remington 115 grain ball, Winchester 115 grain ball and one twenty round box of Magtech 115 grain +P hollowpoints. Total rounds fired were two hundred twenty. There were no malfunctions of any kind with any of the ammunition used.
With the +P ammunition I did notice a little more muzzle flip than with the XDm 4.5 I own, nothing to be concerned about with a little practice. I found this model to be a natural pointer getting me on target quickly without the need to adjust my point of aim to any great degree.
I fired groups from five, ten and fifteen yards with good results. The target below was fired from ten yards. A total of nineteen rounds were fired into this target. These pistols are very accurate which the match barrel contributes to I’m sure.
Conclusion
Overall I was pleased with this XDm model. After wearing my XDm 4.5 and this XDm 3.8 and comparing ease of carry I have to say one was pistol was no easier to conceal than the other. I would suggest if a person wants a concealed carry XD they opt for the XDm 3.8 Compact. The shorter grip will be considerably easier to conceal than the full size grip.
As you probably noticed in the specs this pistol is also available in all black or two tone black frame/ stainless matte slide.
With all of the extras being offered now it’s a really good buy worthy of consideration for a CCW pistol.
When the XD and the XD compact arrive in 10mm I’ll give them an interested looking over. They haven’t been able to do that yet, I wonder why.
carter,
I don’t think it’s a lack of ability of the gun to handle it but a lack of a market for them in 10MM. I could be wrong. I need to check on that.
carter,
Randy at Springfield just told me the XD and XDm will take a 10 MM without problem. They don’t have enough of a market for them to create tooling etc to make it profitable.
I’ve been looking at a home gun for my parents. They shoot my Sig brilliantly, but a 12 pound trigger pull is tough for some. None of us really like my baby Glock, but hey, it’s on the department ‘approved’ list. We tried an XD the other day and were impressed – but I had no experience with XDs’ reliability. After reading your review, I’m starting to think it’s just the right gun for them. Thanks for the good review!
fw226,
My pleasure sir! I agree completely. The XDm would be a great fun for them. The reliability is just as good as a Glock. I’ve never had a malfunction with my 4.5 or when testing the 3.8. It pretty much feeds whatever you put in it.
You know when we get older our eyes could benefit from a bit longer sight radius. Maybe a 4.5 would be a good choice. If you get night sights I would buy the contrasting type with say red front dot green rear. That way they keep them lined up correctly.
I wish Glock would offer the thumb safety on All guns, not just special order for police and military.
Having no real safety to prevent accidental firing when anything presses the trigger is a FAIL in my book. If they had a manual thumb or grip safety I would consider buying one, until then it’s a no go.
If it cannot be carried safely with a round in the chamber, whether with an external hammer that can be thumbed for the first shot, a ‘true’ DAO heavy pull action, or a cocked and locked type safety then I won’t carry it for defensive use.
Sorry if you disagree but I want to know 100% when my gun can, and cannot, fire.
Used to be that way too, until I became a much more educated shooter. I’m not saying you’re not educated, I’m just saying that once I realized that safety is not mechanical, then my views changed as well.
The Glock is one of the safest weapon systems in the world. When a round is chambered, you have three different safety mechanisms keeping the gun safe. The firing pin is blocked by the firing pin block and the trigger bar, and the trigger is blocked by the trigger safety. What more do you want? The gun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, simple as that. When your body is under stress, you only have to draw the gun and pull the trigger. That’s always going to be faster than flipping a safety that gives you false assurance. Not only that, but adding a thumb safety makes the trigger system more complicated and more prone to reliability issues.
Long heavy triggers and thumb safetys are not the answer to training deficiencies. Safe gun handling is something that happens in your head not your gun. Finger off the trigger and the gun is safe.
Zermoid,
There is a company who makes a manual safety for the Glock. They charge about $125 for the safety and installation. I can give you the address if you want. Heck, here is the address http://www.tarnhelm.com/GlockSafety.html
Here is a line from the website: You can load and unload the firearm with the safety engaged, which locks all the factory-standard passive safeties as well.
I can not get over the grip safety. I don’t believe this feature belongs on any self-defense or combat pistol. The more mechanical safeties you have the more that can go wrong in a bad situation when you REALLY don’t want them to fail. Remember folks all mechanical devices fail.
Also its not uncommon to be shot in your hand where you may no be able to activate this device!
“not uncommon to be shot in your hand” :O
Fred,
Yea, I wondered the same thing—– As I told him we practice with the weak hand or non-injured hand to make it a non-issue.
Dan,
Hey Dan can you explain that last line for me? We always practice weak hand shooting as well as manipulating the safety with the weak hand or whichever hand or arm that is not injured. If you practice it’s really not that difficult.
I agree 100% Dan
A “combat” or duty pistol should not have a thumb safety or grip safety.
Theres a lot of safe-queens on this site so dont think you are the only person who understands defensive shooting as opposed to static shooting and what works well in each situation.
Nicks87,
The grip safety on a 1911 is debatable but not having a manual safety is asking for a suspect to get it and pop you with it. He may not be able to figure out a manual safety but just pulling the trigger is a no brainer for the dumbest crook.
I would have the grip safety pinned on my 1911′s but legal issues prevent that from happening. You shoot someone with a gun that has a disabled safety and you’re in trouble. Hey by the way by “Safe Queens” are you talking about guns or people?
Springfield XD is a pistol made through guide of Glock.
Since XD is a pure single action firearm, it should be said that
its innovation is as new as Browning FN 1910.
All safeties are designed to fınd quick responses for Glock’s
innovative lay out, in a way rather wrongly prepared and presented.
Take Automatic Trigger Safety, for instance, it is made to prevent
unintential trigger releases as same purpose with Glock, but realised
wrongly as using metal units increasing more weight to create more
motional energy through inertia if dropped.
Take Automatic Striker Safety, it is purposedly presented as “Drop Safety”
as leveling with Glock’s, but in fact, it is only a “Slide Separation Safety”,
again, same as with Glock, as explained in Glock Service Manual.
In fact, XD’s “Drop Safety” is its Grip Safety which is rather equavalent
to Glock’s “Safety Ramp”, as both being arranged to prevent Sear Drops
from Striker Underlugs without trigger release. But XD’s being manual
and Glock’s being automatic. Real Drop Safeties survive Gun’s cocked
mode if a drop or impact happens.
Springfield XD may be a good gun to use, and Glock is not definetely a
perfect gun, but if there were no Glocks, there were no XDs at all.
I not sure you’re entirely right about about the drop safety on the XDm being identical to the SSS on the glock.
I’ve got a XDm 40 3.8 in front of me now and from what I can tell, the drop safety is more accurately a striker block safety. There’s a spring-loaded block protruding from the slide which blocks/catches the striker seer, unless it is lifted out of the way by a tab on the trigger. When the trigger is pulled, this tab pushes the block up into the slide allowing the seer and striker to pass.
As I understand it, the Glock drop safety is a shelf that the triggerbar sits in, and is removed from, while firing.
I could be wrong though – I don’t have a glock here in front of me to play with – so please don’t take offense. I’m just thinking about your comment…
inferno999,
Your correct on the XDm. If you go to Glocks website I believe they have a gif illustration of the internal movement. I found an illustration for you guys. It shows the operation start to finish. It’s an animated GIF file.
http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Glock23/P2Glock.html
inferno999,
The XDm does have a drop safety that is similar to a Glock but is not identical.
Is it really true this weapon has FIVE safties?
Im really glad SpringArm. is making firearms for the under 80 IQ folks.
5?
I count 0 manual safeties, 2 user safeties (grip and trigger) and 1 drop safety. That’s 3 at most. What are the other two? If you’re talking about the loaded and cocked indicators, that’s all they are, indicators. They don’t make the gun any safer, but they do help YOU be safer with it.
inferno999,
I called Randy at Springfield just now to clarify things a bit. The loaded chamber indicator and the striker status are indicators but for novice shooters they call them safeties although technically they aren’t. They are as you said indicators. They contribute to safety if that makes sense.
No not ME.
I carry Glocks and Berettas my finger is my safty.
Nicks87,
You’ve been watching “Black Hawk Down”
We’re done here—–quote from the movie. No I’m not insulting you:-) Your finger is your primary safety I’ll give you that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory_XD
“In addition to the trigger and grip safeties, there are three other safeties on the XDM. The drop safety prevents the striker from releasing if the gun is dropped or exposed to a significant impact. An out of battery safety prevents firing unless the slide is completely in battery. Further, as of 2008, 4 in and 5 in XD .45 ACP Service models are available with an optional ambidextrous frame-mounted thumb safety. This option is now available in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP pistols.”
Ol’ Phil should’ve included that too.
Nicks87,
That Wiki info was for the HS2000 primarily.
Nicks87,
The thumb safety is not available in any model of the XDm and never has been. That was a short run of guns (XD) made in 2005 to compete in the military trials that were canceled. It was displayed at the 05 Shot Show. There are no current plans to bring that feature back. That info is from Springfield’s Custom Shop as of 20 minutes ago.
I find It odd that a firearm made in Croatia would be so trusted, well received, and commercially successful. Im sure no one would ever even consider purchasing a car, TV, or medical supplies etc… That are made in Croatia. I was choosing to purchase a glock 26 or xd subcompact. I knew that the xd was supposed to be better. But there’s no way I’m gonna buy, or trust anything made in a 3rd world eastern European s***hole.
I got the glock 26.
It would be hilarious if you lived during the 60s and got a M16A1 instead of a czech Vz.58 because the Vz. came from a “eastern european shithole” and the M16A1 got you killed from having a much worse reliability.
I own both an AR-15 (a Colt 6920) and a Vz. 58 (A CZ-USA double stack military model) and my AR has been far and away more reliable. In absolute terms, I would qualify their designs as being roughly equivalent in reliability, with perhaps the 58 coming out a bit on top, due to better magazines (GIs in the ’60s not having the PMags that I use).
But it’s by no means a large gap.
Nathaniel,
I think he’s talking about the first AR’s that were issued in Vietnam. Soldiers were told they need not clean them. Also, the issued ammo was bad at fouling the AR. We lost a good number of soldiers because the AR would lockup and have to be torn down to get it working again. Later this was fixed by changing powder and loading as well as issuing cleaning kits. They came with a pamphlet with a rather buxom young lady on the front and addressed taking care of my sweet 16:-)
Vitor,
Yep, judge the gun not where it came from. Croatia is only about 80 miles from the southern border of Austria. Same area of the world. Croatian troops fight alongside our troops in Afghanistan which says something for them. People in that part of the world know how to make quality guns. The CZ-75 comes to mind.
Also pretty sure barely any chinks had vz 58′s. From what I’ve heard from people that were actually there they almost exclusively had Chinese type 56 sks copies. Thy would use the bayonet as a monopod They barely hadany AKs. But that’s not what the movies would have you believe. And I’m sure that’s where you get your info.
Johnny,
With respect the SKS was very prevalent as was the AK47 in Vietnam. Russia and China supplied both types in an effort to win favor over the other country in relations with the North Vietnamese. There were huge numbers of both weapons used. In fact the NVA would pickup old Thompsons and M1 carbines we supplied the French in their ill fated involvement. Russia supplied most of the higher tech weapons such as SAMs while China sent more 37MM anti-aircraft guns etc. Ammo came through the same sources but were made in most of the satellite countries of the CCCP as well as China. “Chinks” was a derogatory term used in the Korean war. “Gooks”, among other terms, was the derogatory name for the VC irregulars and North Vietnamese regulars.
The Czech Scorpion was a favorite of SOG troops over there when doing prisoner snatches etc.
I really believe VLTOR was making an analogy between the reliability of the early AK and AR15 prior to the AR being renamed the M16. The M16A1 came along later around 1968. He can answer if that was indeed an analogy better than I. Our guys picked up AK’s off the battlefield as a backup to the AR15 when they had so much trouble with those early model.
The VZ58 went into service in 1958. The internal workings are completely different than the AK. None were sent to Vietnam.
Rangers Lead The Way!
Thank you for your informative post Phil.
Johnny,
You bet sir! It’s helps when you’re a Baby Boomer and lived during that turbulent time.
you mean eastern european countries that have been traditionally known for quality firearms… such as CZ, Zastava, Łucznik Arms Factory, and Cugir among others…
Lol @ zastavas and cugir. Are you actually serious about that comment? I had a brand new m88 from zastava where the clip would fall out every shot. A m70 AK where the recoil spring broke, and a wasr 3 from cugir which as you know , not one has ever cycled. I get it that the Czechs got lucky but I also had a vz 61 skorpion that came with a broken safety. And a cz 52 that would lock back every shot. So in my experience That part of the world is trash. You can’t tell me otherwise.
“Lol @ zastavas and cugir. Are you actually serious about that comment?”
As a armorer and gunsmith and veteran, i am serious about this comment. My two childhood friends, one of which is a SWAT armorer and another a 18B, sold me on the so-called “eastern european junk” arms manufacterers, which i actually found out are quite premium in their manufacture.
“I had a brand new m88 from zastava where the clip would fall out every shot. A m70 AK where the recoil spring broke, and a wasr 3 from cugir which as you know , not one has ever cycled”
I find it unfortunate (if questionable) that you have experienced such issues with these firearms. My contention is that the blame is on the importers in the United States, especially in the case of WASR and M70 rifles, which are re-assembled by US companies per ATF and customs regulations requiring cut receivers. Many companies like Century Arms have had a notorious reputation for assembling inferior quality firearms, though i have seen many high quality AK copies come from them, so hopefully their reputation is forcing them to clean up their act. Another example is ROMAK-3 rifles (romanian PSL…whatever). Original copies from romania are high quality rifles in contrast to the reassembled ones in the US, which vary from high quality to questionable. I believe you are making unfair comparisons that affect the weapons’ quality due to draconian US import restrictions.
“I get it that the Czechs got lucky but I also had a vz 61 skorpion that came with a broken safety. And a cz 52 that would lock back every shot. So in my experience That part of the world is trash. You can’t tell me otherwise.”
of course not, you have abandoned all fact and scientific thinking in favor of a emotional argument. No amount of facts to the contrary will sway a emotional argumentative person, who have a nasty habit of preconceived contentions as well. Never mind that the original Skorpion, CZ52, and VZ 58 are world renowned for their quality (especially CZ), though reassembly in the US may take its toll on the quality (in many cases, its unaffected).
The fact is that eastern european firearms, in their original forms and in most cases, their post-US form, are not garbage. They can be produced less expensively than western european firearms and are superior to them in many cases. The VZ58 i use as the best example. It is a outstanding firearm that is superior to the Soviet AKM.
I love how you have one vz58 and now you are the expert on 3rd world east European guns. I have owned all those weapons, and had all those problems with them. Therefore i no longer own cheap euro trash. I would say I’m far more qualified on euro trash weapons than you. Cz 52, and the vz 61 were made entirely in czech. M88 entirely in Serbia at zastava. I’m sorry you think your the expert cause you have one fake AK. But your not.
“I love how you have one vz58 and now you are the expert on 3rd world east European guns.”
How do you know I just have my one vz58? im not engaging in a petty game of “i have more guns than you do”, but common sense should tell you expertise is not acquired by extensive knowledge of one firearm. You obviously didn’t read my post, as i gratuitously mentioned i have other more credible sources of information regarding the subject at hand.
“I have owned all those weapons, and had all those problems with them.”
Again, you didn’t read my post. I said that it is unfair to judge eastern european weapons buy purchasing them in the US, since they are not in their original, manufactured form (the ones that were imported in complete form are very expensive and rare). It is no different than comparing a Wolfsburg VW to one made in Mexico. Its stupid. Playing into your game, my polish tantal, Bulgarian AK74, M70, and Vz58 have had no issues…besides being too fun to shoot.
“Therefore i no longer own cheap euro trash. I would say I’m far more qualified on euro trash weapons than you.”
of course you think so, its called confirmation bias. Thank you for demonstrating today that you know very little about me. Not that it matters. Your credibility and expertise are particularly underwhelming.
“Cz 52, and the vz 61 were made entirely in czech.”
your cz 52 is a curio and relic item…but the vz 61, oh wait…ill leave that unanswered so you can research it yourself. here’s a hint:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
“M88 entirely in Serbia at zastava. I’m sorry you think your the expert cause you have one fake AK. But your not.”
again, refer to the link above. judging the entire bushel by one bad apple is the pinnacle of ignorance and stupidity. Plenty of people have had issues with eastern european firearms, plenty of people love them. I find it interesting how you are circumventing my point by utilizing curio and relic firearms to prove your point. Ill say it again. Its not reasonable to compare non-curio and relic eastern european firearms (the ones that require a minimal amount of US parts) reassembled in the united states versus the ones produced in eastern europe. I believe you are overestimating the problems associated with them.
MY vz61 was made semi auto and built at a factory in CZ then imported fully assembled and distributed through czechpointusa. Same as your faggety ass vz58. I have seen pics of them making them at the factory in Czech. You cannot tell me otherwise because i ordered it from there!!! I don’t care what your list say, you are not correct on that.
“MY vz61 was made semi auto and built at a factory in CZ then imported fully assembled and distributed through czechpointusa.”
are you sure? the FAQ from your beloved czpointusa seems to disagree with you.
“Q: Are the firearms 100% newly manufactured?
A: No. D-Technik hand selects original military issue surplus parts to be assembled onto new manufactured receivers. All black polymer is new and the original metal parts are refinished to new condition. Wood impregnated plastic furniture may exhibit minor scratches. ” http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/faq/
“Same as your faggety ass vz58. I have seen pics of them making them at the factory in Czech. You cannot tell me otherwise because i ordered it from there!!! I don’t care what your list say, you are not correct on that.”
well, you may not care what my list says, but last i heard, the BATFE aren’t exactly forgiving and pliable when it comes to laws and regulations. They make it pretty clear that receivers constitute a firearms part, thus they cannot be legally imported into the United States without getting cut. Curio and Relic firearms are the exception. A vast majority of warsaw pact and chicom weaponry in the US is imported as parts kits and reassembled with US made receivers, trigger groups, gas pistons, and perhaps muzzle breaks.
And my “faggety ass” vs58? now you are personally attacking my rifle because you cannot argue? Thats pretty funny. I needed a laugh today.
This review would have been much stronger without the part impugning Glock based upon anecdotal experience. I agree that Glocks should not be used by the careless or in conjunction with unsafe gear–but then again, neither should any firearm. Kudos for the otherwise solid review.
Ice,
Thank you ice:-)
I don’t mean to nitpick but your review contains a couple errors.
The striker status indicator is silver, not red as you state.
“In addition the XDm 3.8 comes in a compact version which holds 16+1″
The XDm 3.8 Compact is the same as the XDm 3.8 except the grip is shorter. It comes with one 19 round mag with a grip extension and one 13 round mag that fits flush. AFAIK there are no 16 round mags for the 9mm XDm.
Keep up the good work.
E.Wit,
I added the other magazine capacity information to the specs and narrative. Thanks!
What makes this “Match” barrel different than the barrel of the XD?
Justmeagain,
I can’t verify this right now but I believe the barrel is made by one of the high end barrel makers. I’ll call Springfield tomorrow and see if they are willing to share that information. I’ll let you know either way.
Each barrel and slide are supposedly fitted together for precise lock-up. It seems pretty tight to me, but I don’t have many reference points. They are definitely serial number matched.
As far as accuracy, I can’t shoot it nearly as well as my Ruger MkIII bull barrel, or STI Spartan 9. However, I also know that the XDM is far more accurate than I am.
Eh. I don’t know. I find the idea of a “match, fitted” barrel in a combat pistol a little funny.
My bog standard non fitted barrel in my m&p will make 100yard hits on steel silhouettes as long as I don’t pull the shot. I think asking any more than that with iron sights is a bit silly.
I noticed a huge difference between my old XDs and the XDms with the match barrel. This is what the 5.25 9mm can do – three rounds at 15 yards modified Weaver … http://inkstagram.com/#/photos/206476113_2468438
@crosswiredmind- Don’t do that here. You should be banned from this blog for that shit!
18D,
You mean the photo link? Just making sure:-)
I apologize Phil, but that’s the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Yes BTW, the photo link.
18D,
Ok, I got you. I wasn’t 100% sure that was what you meant. No need to apologize we all have our hot buttons.
Justmeagain,
I contacted Springfield this morning and got an anser to your question. The barrel and slide are kept together through the whole process and are fitted barrel to slide as well as match grade manufacturing to closer tolerances without sacrificing reliability.
Learn how to use commas! You wrote a great review and it deserves to be taken seriously.
JohnnyMarine,
I appreciate that Johnny and I’m glad you enjoyed it!
The grip safety is a pretty nice idea and it should reduce some negligent and accidental discharges.
However for those people or even agencies not willing or unable to regularly train, I’ve always though a revolver either DAO or with a factory bobbed hammer is a better choice than any automatic.
Its a more idiot proof system and without the hammer, someone won’t try to cock the weapon this eliminating the main cause of negligent discharges.
abprosper,
The problem these days with reduced budgets etc is lack of training time. Most agencies used to qualify every quarter but a lot have gone to twice a year or even once a year which is no where near enough. In fact I was running qualifications with another officer for several agencies a few months ago and one department made the officers buy their own ammo for qualification and duty carry!! Now that’s just wrong!
abprosper,
There are some old police trade-in revolvers from New York which have the hammer spur removed as you mentioned.
How about the Beretta 92D?
DAO with a bobed hammer and no safety.
It’s accurate and easy to train, holds 15 rnds and is made by Beretta who have been around since the 1500s. Put that in your pipe and smoke it 1911 fanboys.
…AND NO SAFE-QUEEN GRIP SAFETY!
Nicks87,
The 92D did have a thumb safety for LEO use. The civilian model did not. I owned a LEO version.
Phil, you have that backwards.
Years ago I worked at a veterans hospital and we carried 92Ds with a magazine disconnect and without a thumb safety. VA Police are LEOs.
Nicks87,
They had to be ordered that way. With a mag disconnect that is. The VA buys enough to get a special run I imagine. My issued 92D had a manual thumb safety and it was a DAO. The idea was to prevent a suspect from getting your gun and just pulling the trigger.
Nicks87,
True they are. I’ve gotten several calls to back them up at the Little Rock, Ar. VA.
Another great review by Phil White, thanks again.
Lance,
Thank you Lance I very much appreciate it!
Lance,
Gotcha covered:-)
16+1 ?
Is that new ? All I can find are 13 or 19 round mags. A 16 would put the grip at what, a Glock 19 length ?
Miller2Way,
No nothing new that is for the 40 Cal. The 9MM is the same as always. My error it’s 13+1 for the compact.
I used a XD variant (XD-.45 tactical) as my daily carry pistol for years and was very happy with it until I found out that if the grip safety is not engaged you cannot rack the slide.
I am retiring it from daily carry as soon as I can purchase a suitable replacement.
Any ideas?
As far as what?
That’s strange. I can rack the slide on my XD9 without engaging the grip safety.
Do you rack your pistol while not holding it?
Of course not, but my point is along the lines of what has been mentioned in other comments.
If I am in any defensive situation and find myself incapacitated in one or both arms/hands, I would not only have the potential problem of not being able to get a good enough grip to activate the safety to fire the pistol, I would also not even be able to reload and charge the pistol with any type of alternate grip prior to attempting to fire.
Sure, it’s (hopefully) not a common problem, and might never affect me at all, but I prefer to plan ahead and remove any potential problems ahead of time.
I still like the XD-.45, and I don’t plan on getting rid of it. I’m just not going to carry it as a self defense pistol that I might someday have to stake my life on.
There’s no such thing as an “accidental” discharge. There IS a thing called a “NEGLIGENT” discharge, which covers failing to sweep and visually clear your holster before reholstering. It’s not the tool, it’s the operator. Great review otherwise. I’m looking forward to trying out the XDm line after I move to a free state.
drewogatory,
Thanks, I’m glad you liked the review:-) Oh yea you’re in Kalifornia aren’t you–my condolences. They classed that floppy holster deal an AD as was the “Toggle” AD in the reports. The ND’s are many and include the old holstering the gun with finger in trigger guard—very dumb!!!! What I do it is keep my finger straight along the frame and as the gun slides into the holster my trigger finger slides down the outside of the holster. Always buy a holster that covers the trigger and guard.
That and never ever carry IWB without a holster!!!! I hope you get to try one out soon!
Here are some photos of the holster discharge I mentioned: All he did was sit down in his car and bang!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/PWhite777/PPS/glock_08.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/PWhite777/PPS/glock_04.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/PWhite777/PPS/glock_05.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/PWhite777/PPS/glock_02.jpg
I’m with drew. The only time tere is an “accidental” discharge is when a weapon breaks. Any other time it is negligent. Even if it was just some toggle that got in the trigger guard, that person negligently holstered without looking to make sure nothing got caught on the gun, he negligently bought a holster that did not offer enough protection when reholstering. I’ve had a ND and I fully admit it happened cause I was being negligent. I’m sick of people trying to blame gear THEY bought for NDs.
Matt,
Lack of knowledge is also another factor. Maybe I should say lack of interest as well in some cases.
Methinks your logic is pretty inconsistent there.
You say first that the only way an AD can happen is when a weapon breaks.
You then go on to say that any discharge caused by gear lays blame on the chooser of the gear.
Guns are gear. If I buy a crappy .22 revolver, and it has an AD because the sear is made of zinc and fails, whose responsibility is it? How is that any different than a holster that is flimsy catching the trigger when reholstering a firearm?
This “accidental/negligent” nonsense overlooks the real concern: We want people to not shoot themselves, others, or anything else without intending to. ANY action taken to prevent that from occurring is good. ANY decision taken to risk that is bad.
Instead, what we have are a series of preventable accidents. It is good to analyze these accidents that we might prevent them from occurring again. The problem with getting on a forum and parroting the term “negligent discharge” is that it stops and redirects thought from the real issue: How do we prevent accidents?
Instead people use their mental energy to analyze these terms and to try and categorize these incidents into one or another definition, when what they should be doing is helping prevent accidents in the first place.
Guess what? Every mishap that has ever happened could have been prevented.
Nathaniel, it’s not any different. The crappy revolver going off unexpectedly is negligent as well. Anytime the goes goes off unexpectedly, it’s negligent.
I do feel there is one area that isn’t necessarily negligent, and that is a malfunctioning gun that was otherwise good to go in the first place. Those type of accidents are extremely rare however.
Accidental discharges definitely can happen. Are they often the result of negligence? Sure, but such is the nature of accidents.
Making sure we lay blame on someone for an unintended discharge is something of a group activity on fora, but sometimes we lose sight of why we do that, instead we dull our thought by repeating simple mantras.
I’ve had a situation where a range was not well-kept, and the bench I was sitting on literally collapsed out from under me. The weapon I was using, a Saiga AK, swept my friend’s head area, but I did not discharge. If I had, would that have been negligence as we normally describe it? Of course someone can be considered responsible, but who? Was it the range owner, for not keeping his range in good condition? Was it our fault for choosing a range we knew to be somewhat dilapidated? If it had been a failure of the mechanism, should we blame some nameless worker in a factory somewhere?
Certainly blame can be assigned; my point is not that it cannot be. My point is that assigning blame is a servant to the real task: Making sure it doesn’t happen again. Accomplishing that takes some thought, and repeating a mantra, like “there are no accidental discharges, only negligent discharges” is a stopper to real thought.
Check out the definition of “accident” on Wikipedia:
“An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. It implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.”
Sounds like all your “negligent discharges” fit snugly within this definition.
Nathaniel,
Good points sir! Certainly food for thought.
No, that would not have been an accident. If you blew your friends head off with your gun, it would have been negligent.
Everyone is thinking way too hard about this. If you practice the five life safety rules then you shouldn’t have any issue with someone getting hurt, yet it happens all the time. We should also be smart enough to buy good quality guns with good quality parts. The other gentlemen mentioned the crappy revolver with the bad sear. If that gun goes off unexpectedly, then it is negligent. The owner should be the master of his weapon system, and that means knowing whether or not it is in good condition.
Anytime your gun goes off without your wanting it to, then it is negligent! We should buy quality guns, quality gear, and know how everything works together, and most importantly practice the five life safety rules. Simple as that.
A good police officer is not going to “visually clear” his holster when holstering his pistol, any more than he’ll stare at the chamber while reloading, or take his eyes off the road to shift gears. Police officers are taught to reload and holster while keeping their eyes on what’s going on around them, or the target they’re dealing with, as the case may be. Here in MN, my police instructor(s) tell us “You shouldn’t be looking down to reholster. You know where your holster is; it hasn’t moved.”
Duray,
I teach the same thing. When reloading I have them bring the pistol up to the bottom of your peripheral vision when putting a new mag in. That way you see what’s in your line of sight without looking for a mag or your holster. A lot can happen while your searching for your holster or fresh magazine. Another reason for a quality holster which maintains it’s shape even without a pistol in it!
Everyone in class has to practice holstering and reloading in this manner for at least 30 minutes in 2x 15 minute periods. All guns are checked and ammo is placed in another room in shoe boxes with the officers name on it.
I have owned both Glocks (19 & 21), XDs (9mm & sub compact .40), and XDms (.40 3.8, .45 4.5, and 9mm 5.25. I no longer own the two Glocks. The primary reason is ergonomic. The XD family fits me better. The grip angle is more appropriate for my natural grip. They also shoot better – for me anyway. In IDPA and IPSC my best scores in terms of points down came with my Xdm .40 and my XD 9. I like my Glocks, but my range time, and competition time both showed me that for me the XD family fits much better.
crosswiredmind,
I have trouble with the grip angle on Glocks as well. When I draw my pistol is pointed up one half inch higher than it should be. There is a company that makes a piece that inserts on the grip to lessen that angle.
http://www.glockmeister.com/Grip-Force-Adapter-For-Most-Gen-1-Gen-2-AND-Gen-3-GLOCKS/productinfo/GEN123BLK/
the important thing is to have a handgun that fits you so you can use it the most effectively. I have sasquatch hands so i have no issues with a glock, though i would never think of getting rid of my XD.
W,
I bet you use the large backstrap:-) Now that was a great addition to any pistol.
haha, yes. thats why i like the generation 4 where i can add on to the grip.
Since the XD has the same type of trigger safety as the Glock, and the grip safety easily disengages, the type of AD/ND you talk about is no less a problem for the XD. I suspect the reason you don’t hear about them is because it hasn’t been adopted by many departments. The “theme” of the XD appears to be mechanical solutions to training issues. Who’s going to trust a loaded chamber indicator over the direct evidence of a press check? A novice. Who really cares about striker status? (If there’s a round in the chamber, and you didn’t just drop it on a dud round, it’s going to be cocked.) A novice.
While the XDM finally brings it up to the tolerances other pistol makers have had since the ’80s, you will now pay nearly as much for a molded polymer frame pistol made with cheap Croatian labor as you would for a machined steel framed pistol made in America.
Probably all those extraneous “safety” devices adding to the cost.
Jason,
I just believe in making a pistol as safe as possible for the least competent, least experienced shooter. The grip safety on the XD has to be depressed intentionally though even if it’s fairly easy to depress. One reason the Glock took over the LEO market was cost per unit. When they first came out the cost was $289 which was way lower than any competing pistol. I’ve talked to the administration at many departments and they admitted freely that cost made the decision not the range officer. Not that it’s right but there ya go. Our department did the same thing. The choice was between a Beretta 92 and a Sig 226 but price made the choice for the bean counters. Not that all decisions were made that way of course but a good number were. Now that department budgets are shrinking it’s an even more valid administration reason to replace old guns with new Glocks. Make no mistake I’m really not a Glock hater. I just hate poor training and a lack of officer commitment to training on their own time. It’s unfortunate but most officers are not shooters.
Glock just announced there will be no price increase this year (2012) for departments which is a good thing.
Would you trust a press check over a chamber indicator in a low light situation? If you can’t see the round then a physical indicator that you have a round in the chamber is faster and easier.
I know that for me the few times that I have taken my gun with me to check something going “Bump” in the night it was nice to not have to turn on a light just to check if my wife may have cleared the chamber on our shared firearm sometime between then and the last time I handled it.
Also with the striker indicator, yes it does seam as if it is unnecessary but again when you have your weapon in your hand in the dark, knowing that your firearm is ready to go in every shape and form just by feeling the slide instills confidence that I really like to have in a stress situation.
Andy,
Those are my thoughts as well. In the dark it’s nice to be able to feel the status of your gun.
I think the american law enforcement agencies decision to go primarily with a glock was a wise decision. Considering it has 34 parts, plug and play internals, and low cost per unit, the long term cost benefits for these reliable, inexpensive polymer handguns is a no brainer considering they largely replaced the maintenance intensive S&W and 1911 semi-automatics and obsolete S&W revolvers. Many military units have also seen the long term benefit of utilizing Glock handguns.
Needless to say, I believe the Springfield XD series is a evolutionary improvement over the Glock. For what the consumer gets when purchasing a XD for a comparatively low cost, they are pretty much unbeatable. I would be delighted to see more law enforcement agencies adopting the XD, though Glock’s are going to be a hard castle to tear down on the hill.
Springfield has done a fantastic job on the XDM’s. Ergonomics are there, accuracy is there, and reliability is good to go. I do have to say though, that the fact the XDM has a single action trigger, they could have done better. The XDM triggers are mediocre at best, and Springfield really should have fixed that. Manufacturers are somewhat “scared” these days of making a true single action, and it shows on the XDM. I also don’t know what the point of having a 3.8 in barrel is when the gun is 5.6 in tall! That doesn’t make much sense. Now if you take that slide and throw it on a shorter grip frame then you have a CCW winner! Overall a great gun, even with its deficiencies.
18D,
As you pointed out the grip is what makes a good concealed carry pistol not barrel length. Some just prefer the 3.8 configuration though. A for instance is Sig and the Traditional 1911 compact or the Colt officers model. Shorter grip with the Sig but a 4.2 ” barrel. Now that’s a good combination.
As to the grip safety – I’m not sure how it would help in the AD case you mentioned. When I put my gun (Glock 19) in the holster, I hold it firmly so the grip safety would be depressed anyway, if present. It seems to me as a good practice to hold your handgun right everytime you pick it up.
I think most of these “glock accidents” are caused simply by crappy holsters and/or negligence while holstering. I like the concept of no external safeties but the shooter has then to choose his equipment accordingly. Don’t forget the holster is one of the most important safeties for a carry weapon.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Every ND with a properly functioning Glock is the users fault! Matter of fact almost all ND’s can be traced back to user error. That’s why we practice life safety rules.
18D,
Not all my friend. The officer wearing the jacket with draw toggles had no way to foresee one of those toggles would pull the trigger. That garbage flat holster I mentioned is another cause that would be hard to anticipate. When I retired from my larger department and went to work at a small agency I was given the task of choosing a new duty weapon. I was told right off the bat no Glocks period. So, I chose the H&K USP 40 with the manual safety condition one or carry with the safety off your choice. I caught one of the guys carrying cocked with the safety off. I had a fit and it goes to show no gun is idiot proof!
Poor training is also another major cause.
W., even though we’ve had our differences, your post is spot on. Phil, Czech, nice post as well.
I’d like to add that the officer who had toggles slip into the trigger guard should have foreseen the problem ahead of time, same with the holster issue.
I have been teaching courses for LEO, Military, and civilians for a longtime now and that is one of the areas we harp on from the beginning. If you have a jacket, make sure it doesn’t have any strings, chords, or locks that get in the way of the trigger upon reholstering. If you do have them, they may need to be cut or sewn in order to ensure a clean draw and reholster. Never speed holster! Always ensure the area is clear first. We also teach to choose a proper holster. Problems should be noticed way ahead of time. Those are common things we teach from day one. Unfortunately LEO’s and Military personnel don’t always get the proper training or they fail to understand the lifestyle. Carrying a gun is a life changing experience, and everything in your life must be considered around the gun, not the other way around.