Rumor Mill: Magpul to debut a new ACR, Masada or Massoud?

magpul_masada_1-tfb

The ARFCOM rumor mill is reporting that Magpul, and/or Bushmaster, will soon be launching a new version of the Remington/Bushmaster ACR.

I am not putting a lot of faith in these rumors but I am hoping for the eventual release of the long-awaited Magpul Massoud, the 7.62x51mm version of the Magpul Masada.

REMOV holding the Magpul Massoud

[ Many thanks to jdun1911 for emailing me the link. ]




Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • Joseph

    I doubt such a variant would come to the market but I would for sure like the color.

    The Massoud seems to be a very practical thing to bring to the market, though… especially with the recent popularity of .308/7.62 NATO rifles.
    That said, I wonder if we could see such a rifle be convertible between 5.56 and 7.62 like the Mk17 apparently will do.

  • Lance

    Dont get your hopes up Steve The 7.62mm Masda has only been around in prototype models and its been around for years since 07 so I doubt you see one soon.

    @Joseph

    Converted rifle are so much more bulky than a regular 5.56mm rifle/carbine fact is there longer and have bulky mag wells and weigh more If you get a 5.56mm gun stick with it as the same for a 7.62mm NATO rifle stay with it, don’t waste money on multiple conversion kits. I also stay stay with a battle winners M-14 FAL G-3, good metal made battle rifles.

  • Ben

    Maybe Bushmaster can buy it and charge 2 to 3 times what Magpul promise it will cost? Just like last time…

  • Jay

    If it is an ACR it will likely be the Remington version and that is even more likely not to be available to the non government employee.

    If it is the Massoud I will be very excited; then I will be very disappointed as Magpul will likely just sell the design and it will become the ACR 7.62. Bushmaster then will say it wasn’t designed to shoot 7.62 NATO. It will be two pounds heavier and will only have promises of different barrels and conversions.

    Magpul will then take their bags of money to go off-roading. Whilst the public returns to the AR-15 and American firearms design will remain (mostly) stuck as it has been for decades.

    As for the SCAR Heavy using a conversion; it could use a new lower or just design a magazine that is larger than needed, but wouldn’t require a new lower for the 5.56 round. I question if a detachable magazine well would be usable.

  • Billy Bones

    Not in the least bit interested unless it is manufactured under the Magpul trademark for a reasonable price.

    It would have been nice if they releases their AR lower too… And/or a lower for a 7.62 build.

    I like Magpuls products, I just think they may be reaching a bit too far.

    With the ACR, Bushmaster would have been my last choice of manufacturers.

  • Canthros

    Well, if some guy on arfcom said it, it must be true. :)

    (Actually, LIONHART seems an okay guy, if one that has gotten on my last nerve in the past. I’m still not holding my breath on this. Might be something, might be a lot of nothing.)

  • tom ska

    I really hope for the Massoud. We really need a high quality non AR 308 on the market. The Masada as it was intended would e cool.

  • Sid

    Govenrment economics, OJ was framed, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, common sense in politics, a free lunch, birthday wishes, and an actual need for a convertible rifle.

    I have seen some fairly slick promotional pieces for rifles that can be used for multiple calibers. What is left unstated is that there is no need for this feature. If you have a different caliber, you are going to need different optics/iron sights zeroed to that barrel and caliber. That is beyond the new barrel, bolt, upper receiver, ammo and magazines. Where do you propose the soldier keeps the inordinate amount of extra stuff? In a rucksack? In a vehicle? Would this not mean that you planned to use two different weapons? Why not just bring more ammo?

    The hole in the premise is that if you are behind enemy lines you could use your weapon with captured ammo. BS on stilts. If you are capturing ammo, you are capturing weapons. Use the captured weapons if your weapon is running out.

    Having a convertible caliber weapon is like preparing for a tsunami in Nebraska. You will spend time and money for something so rare as to be catastropic anyway. If you are down to your last few magazines of ammo, there damn well should be more troops on the way and dead guys on the ground. Pick up one of their weapons and Charlie Mike. You are not going to reach into your rucksack where you just happen to have a convertible set of components for your rifle.

    For those who would argue that different roles can be assigned to the individual soldier, I would ask you why we would not just assign different weapons for that role? Again, you are not going to keep a bag full of components and all the necessary items needed riding around in a vehicle. If you want a rifleman to be a designated marksmen on a mission, then they will have a zeroed sniper rifle with them on the mission. Not components in a bag.

  • Alex Vostox

    I wonder if the Remington will changed the name just like ACR. Masada!? probably will get banned in Islamic nation/extremely Christian nation and Massoud!? The Soviet/Russian vets of Afghanistan will got very very angry and uneasy…By the way, Did anyone know the result of this rifle torture test? I interested to see if the Magpul can be fired in humid, muddy, rust-rich, jungle enviroment

  • http://gunscoffee.blogspot.com/ Fred

    I’d expect something as exciting as a .300blk barrel for them, or maybe something as exotic as the 7.62×39 conversion. The Massoud is a whole other beast.

  • Samopal

    I highly doubt it’ll be another Cerberus ACR variant seeing how the current ACR is such a failure.

    If it is a “tweaked” rifle as reported one of two things with happen. Either they’ll fix the rifle and make it useable and charge even more for it, or it’ll still be a piece of junk…and they’ll charge more for it. I guarantee the price will rise no matter the outcome.

    There’s no way Cerberus will make the ACR run correctly and cut the price in half. A working rifle with a normal price tag? Unthinkable!

    It would be interesting to see a true Magpul Massoud, though. I just hope Magpul learned from their mistakes and won’t sell off the design this time so it can be butchered and sold at scalper’s prices.

  • Justin

    I heard a rumor from the gunshop I go to. One of his contacts in BushMaster said they were redoing the ACR. They are redesigning alot and changing alot on it because of all the problems they had over the years. He also said they would be fully releasing the entire platform, which means the barrel kits etc. Apparently Magpul is helping with the redesign with all the magazine and furniture etc.

    That’s the rumor I heard anyway at multiple shops here.

  • jdun1911

    Jay,

    If you think that the ACR is different than you are mistaken. The ACR is an AR18 clone with a new body. It bring nothing new to the market that other systems already have.

    The hard truth is that modern firearm design has hit the mechanical limit. Everything old is new again and marketed that way. Again as I pointed out in the past there are only three action that are used and actively improve on for military small arms. 1. Stoner DI (AR15) 2. Kalashnikov (AK47) 3. Sullivan Piston (otherwise known as Stoner Piston, SA80, G36, SCAR, ACR, etc).

  • jdun1911

    Ben,

    I have to feel bad for Bushmaster. Magpul reps since day one have been hyping the Masada as sub $1500 rifle. The sub $1500 price range is attainable as long as there isn’t any tooling involved. That wasn’t the case for Bushmaster.

    Not only new tooling are needed but from what one of the Bushmaster worker posted before he got layoff with most of his colleagues. He said that they had to spend a lot of time fixing Magpul design. He really resented that they are the bad guys and laid most of the faults with Magpul people. While he wouldn’t admit it I believe that the Masada destroyed Bushmaster.

    The Masada and Massoud are the first firearms design by magpul like a FN rep point out in a thread fight with Magpul rep. The FN rep was really harsh on Magpul telling them that FN had over a century of making firearms while Magpul had a few years making firearms accessories.

  • Lance

    More reason to stick with the tried and true AR-15 design. Jdun1911

  • jdun1911

    Canthros,

    When it comes to ACR rumors Lionhart is spot on. I remember he got into a heated argument with Magpul rep on the ACR price. Lionhart posted that the ACR will be around $3k. Magpul rep insisted it will be sub $1500 and called him a dumbass (or something similar). Few days later Bushmaster released the price and the Magpul rep shut up after that.

    Lionhart did bought an ACR and I did ask him with a smirk. It went something like this.

    Me: You got an ACR with all that drama in the other thread?
    Lionhart: Yep
    Me: How is it?
    Lionhart: Great

    A few months later he sold his ACR. Go figure.

  • jdun1911

    Justin,

    I haven’t been update with the ACR news. What type of problems is the gun having?

  • Jay

    @jdun1911

    I understand there is only a few ways to have an action operate. What I was referring to is the combination of design features, used in conjunction with newer materials and manufacturing processes.

    Moving away from stampings, pressed barrels, rifles that require head-spacing, steal receivers, non free float barrels, unfriendly left hand usage and a large parts count.

    Newer designs also shouldn’t be limited to government used cartridges. This is why the idea of having easy conversions for one rifle is a good thing, even though, honestly, it is ultimately a compromise. It is likely best to design a rifle after the cartridge.

    An ideal rifle would be more accurate, whilst being lighter weight, firing a round that has longer effective range, with a bullet that has greater terminal performance and has a large range of bullet selection for versatility.

  • Colin

    @Sid,
    The idea is to have all the parts at the units home base and send the unit to war with a certain set-up (i.e. going to Afghanistan, take parts for a 7.62, going to Belfast take parts for a 5.56). Not to carry them with you on patrol in your Bergen. It would simplify training, one rifle instead of one for each job.

    But I concede, as with everything there are pro’s and con’s, in this case weight is the most obvious…

  • Lance

    @Jdun1911

    Thats why like in the military in the civilian market the plastic FN and this Masada they are finding it im possible to kill off the AR-15 design the AR-15 is king both for civilians and military alike it works well and been around forever you can’t say any 5.56mm pea shooter can out do the gun who started it all, or is worth replacing it in homes or bases.

  • michael

    pass…..big time

  • Canthros

    jdun1911: ISTR that he’s missed at least as much as he’s hit. I’m not saying he’s wrong, mind, just that I haven’t heard anything to suggest that he’s right, and the only supporting links all seem to come back here or his arfcom thread.

    I do know that there’s an ACR redesign underway. I’ve talked with people involved and handled one of the Remington models at AAC’s Silencer Shoot back in June. Whether that will be rolled out to the civilian market this year or ever, I dunno, and don’t feel entirely comfortable guessing.

  • Justin

    @jdun1911

    Mostly all I hear about is just the gas system and trigger set having problems now days. I got a ACR that isn’t years old and haven’t had any problems myself. I bought it this year, where if you had old models you had to get some upgrades or something. People still complain however about the gas system and trigger pack here and there though.

    What the gun shop guy heard in my city was that bushmaster and remington were redoing some features that people didn’t much like and just overall making it better. They seem to have fixed most of the issues that everyone reported when it first came out, but it seems they are going to tweak some more things to make it better. He didn’t really go into great detail about whats going on. All that’s known is the guy at bushmaster said they were redoing it.

    Honestly though, everything is just rumors though. No one can actually really know what they are doing over there at bushmaster, they are being really vague and have said that this new ACR will be next gen. I guess saying next gen is suppose to make it sound extreme or something.

    Either way I’m sure people will continue to bash the system and be angsty about it on gunboards. I personally like it. I think it’s a great system.

  • W

    I personally think the Magpul Masada and Massoud are fascinating designs that deserve commendation for taking concepts of the old and applying new technologies alongside them. All of the world’s best “tried and true” rifles also have had teething problems, but fans conveniently ignore those and dwell on the fallacy of confirmation bias and emotional attachment. I believe ignoring innovation and improvement is disingenuous to say the least. So what if “technology has peaked” (which i believe it hasn’t)? existing rifles deserve to be improved with new technologies if that makes them less expensive to produce and more reliable.

    I do not believe in the capturing enemy weapons and ammo conversion concept though. Most nations, where USSOCOM operates (i say USSOCOM because they are most likely to use captured enemy ammunition in contrast to conventional forces with dedicated logistics chains), alongside terrorist groups or whatever you call the opposition forces, use a plethora of small arms, to even include M16 and AR15 copies. Indeed, many still use the ubiquitous AKM platform and the 7.62×39, though FAL and G3’s and 7.62 NATO are also used (remember Somalia anybody?)

    Anyways, it is common knowledge that unconventional military forces utilize enemy weapons anyways (especially AKMs) because they can blend in with surrogate, allied forces and recover OPFOR ammunition. The ammunition conversion concept seems to me like it unnecessarily complicates things and restricts the capabilities of new weapons technology. Why over complicate things?

  • jdun1911

    Jay,

    The ACR lower is made out of plastic. That’s a step down from AR15.

    The ACR is heavy compare to an AR15. That’s a step down from AR15.

    The ACR is front heavy and not very balance. That’s a step down from AR15.

    The AR15 can change to any caliber. Just replace the upper. Few seconds max to do it.

    The AR15 does not require head spacing.

    The AR15 can use any type of barrel profile and manufacturing type.

    AR15 charging handle is ambidextrous.

    AR15 receiver are forge.

    AR15 has free floating barrel.

    The ACR does not bring anything new to the table other than looks. What’s old is new again and marketed that way.

  • Sid

    Colin,

    I realize that having the parts/components at the base is the ideal. But the marketing has it as THE selling point. It is nonsense.

    Again, I think modularity in a weapon line has issues. I was interested in the XM-8 system. But an 8 inch barrel with standard ammunition is going to perform radically different from a 20 inch heavy barrel with same ammo. Even modularity within the same caliber has significant limitations. Change calibers and the limitations become defects. A receiver that is strong enough to not crack when firing 7.62 is going to be too heavy when using 5.56. And the list of components and accessories that must be swapped out is tremendous.

    If we conceded that we will make the changes before the deployment and the components are kept at the base, then why are we buying a component set and not different rifles? My designated marksmen will need to fine tune the entire weapon platform to make shots at 1000m. They are not going to want to use that platform for building clearance. The M4 in the back of the MRAP will be used for that, but the M21 will be used for the long shots.

    I think for my dollar, believe it or not, the US Army is probably doing the right thing when it buys heavier barrels and piston operations for existing M4s.

  • Clodboy

    Alex Vostok: Yeah, they’ll probably change the name, if only to fit in with the ACR brand.

    Personally, I thought “Masada” was a horrible name to begin with – out of all the battles where the Jewish people took on impossible odds and either triumphed or made a huge impression in terms of badassery, Magpul chose the one where it was the Romans that did the impossible by building a gigantic ramp to take a fortress that was considered impregnable in its time, at which point the defenders simply decided to commit mass suicide.

    Then Magpul decided they had to put a disclaimer on their site stating that “Magpul Industries is not Jewish owned or Israeli backed”, thereby alienating pro-Israeli customers (who thought Magpul was caving in to the anti-semites) and anti-semitic ones (who still hate the idea of buying a gun with a Jewish name) at the same time.

  • http://billofgrace.blogspot.com/ Clint

    Really excited about its launch, and have been since first mention years ago, however I will probably go with the new Colt if it comes out first.

  • jack

    I hear they’re going to offer the ACR in pink!!

  • William C.

    Oh I know. How about an ACR without an insane price-tag and with better quality control?

    The ACR seemed like it had a lot of potential, it’s a damn shame to see it get botched so badly.

  • cc19

    Any idea how successful the ACR was? I still don’t know anyone personally who has bought one, and I have quite a few gun buddies and relatives.

  • Eugene Charette

    @cc19 I have an ACR and have not had any issues with it, I have almost 5.5k through it, mixed ammo types and brands. I love the platform, but hate Bushmaster =P

  • Colin

    Quick question,

    Does anybody know how much Magpul/Remington spent getting the ACR to market? – Most people would say not enought!

    Just wondering how much money it takes to get a “from scratch” rifle to market.

  • Albert

    I remember a while back that the ACR was featured on FutureWeapons, still under Magpul’s license as the Masada. They were talking about how they completely redesigned the AR; the Masada design ended up a HALF-POUND lighter than the average AR.

    I agree that interchanging barrels and calibers in the field is pretty useless, but it could come in handy in post-apocalyptic situations: you would encounter various versions of ammunition. I like the ambidextrous mag release, because you can use it for a weak side transition.

    Everyone understand, the AR is my absolute favorite weapons system. The ACR is a smooth engineering piece of work, and it’s perfectly acceptable for me and my style. Regardless, I would choose an AR.

  • a guy who is sitting here

    The comments about swapping calibers behind enemy lines bring to mind modularity, which seems has been forgotten about. First off, the civilian. Let’s say you buy a plain Jane ar15 carbine and want to add some stuff to your rifle, say for instance a ff rail and different barrel. Now you have to have the following items: work bench, vice, special barrel nut, special wrench for the FH if you want to use certain QD can hiders, vice block set, punches, ar wrench or torque wrench depending on maker of items (DD lite), a very costly rail system, barrel, possibly crush washer, lp gas block possibly, a few hours to kill if you’re relaxed about it. Now while I enjoy doing these things and building my own rifle, I understand that this is a laborious process and a costly one.
    Now let’s say I have an ACR; you change the barrel out in a minute.
    Now for the soldier: If you’re in a fire fight and your barrel is shot, you are now out of the fire fight, until you get a new barrel. Are you going to carry a work bench vise, tools, etc into the field? Possibly keep spare uppers with you? How much do those weigh?
    Now if you had an ACR, you just swap out the barrel or whatever else is broken in minutes. Just a thought.