Update on the M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol


Colt Defense and Springfield Armory are both in the running to have one of their 1911 pistols adopted by the Marines as the M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol. Military.com reports

Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., and Springfield Armory of Geneseo, Ill., sent samples of their latest 1911 pistols to acquisition officers this fall, company officials said Jan. 18 during the Shooting, Hunting, Outdoor Trade Show and Conference, known as SHOT Show, in Las Vegas. The Corps is expected to seek proposals from the defense industry soon.

The M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol is modeled after earlier versions of the semi-automatic 1911 pistol used since the 1980s by Force Reconnaissance units. The Corps could buy between 400 and 12,000 as part of a contract worth up to $22.5 million, according to Marine Corps Systems Command.

If you have a good memory, you may recall that Daniel Watters broke the news of the M45 on The Firearm Blog in September ’09.

[ Many thanks to Lance for emailing me the link. ]

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Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com Robert Farago

    Hey, what about Karl Lippard? He’s promising 400 yard hits with his A2 NCO. No really. Check TTAG.

  • Alaskan

    Marines know best.

  • zack991

    The military as a whole needs to go back to the 1911 to begin with and should have never changed.

  • Glen

    You know, I understand (and harbor) a certain emotional attachment to the 1911 platform, but advances have been made in the art of pistol design in the past 100 years. Couldn’t they entertain some modern .45 throwers? Why wouldn’t the XD or M&P be viable candidates? Each of these boasts larger magazine, as good or better reliability and as good or better accuracy. The 1911′s trigger is tough to be when it’s all tuned up; but, for combat purposes, I don’t think the XD’s or M&P’s could be said to be deficient.

  • subase

    OK, why a 1911 in 2011?

    It’s obviously an inferior combat pistol. It is less resistant to fouling (Iraq and Afghanistan), more prone to rust, it’s heavy and it has 40% less round capacity.

    My only explanation is that it’s a morale booster due to to it’s cool looks and history. And that pistol combat happens so rarely, it’s not a big deal.

    • Casey

      The Marines have been shooting the 1911 for 100 years now. Not at ranges, but on battlefields. Have the respect, and common sense not to argue with them.

  • Mike N

    I’m glad to see the 1911 come back into service. When I pick one up, it just feels like victory.

  • jdun1911

    Every time I hear Marine Force Recon is either being deactivated or reactivated.

    The 1911 has the best trigger out of the box. Unlike other pistol the 1911 have proven itself in numerous conflicts.

  • Ray

    Am I the only one who finds going back to .45acp ironic? Considering the detractors seem to rate 9mm above all… (Not trying to turn this in to a .45acp VS 9mm the answer is buy both) It will be interesting to see the results none the less.

  • Nathan91

    I think there are better alternatives to the 1911. As a FMJ round the .45 is the best, and i believe they should switch to it, but there are lighter, more reliable pistols out there that have higher magazine capacities.

  • snmp

    @Glen the Springfield Armory XD45 is rebrand the croatatian HS45

    Joint combat pistol :
    * Germany => Heckler & Koch=> HK45C (made in USA)
    * Germany => SIG Sauer P220 Combat (made in USA)
    * United States => Ruger P345
    * United States => Smith & Wesson M&P
    * Austria => Glock 21SF
    * Italy => Beretta Px4 Storm (made in USA)
    * Brazil => Taurus PT 24/7 OSS
    * Belgium => Fabrique Nationale FNP45-USG ((made in USA)
    * Croatia HS-45 (rebrand by Springfield Armory as XD)
    * Canada => Para-Ordnance LDA 1911

  • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ Tony Williams

    A few comments….

    Practical pistol shooting accuracy is all about the shooter, not the pistol. It doesn’t matter what the gun might be capable of – the average trained user, in the stress of combat with the enemy shooting back, will rarely hit anything beyond a (very) few yards. Any gun with a shoulder stock, even firing pistol ammo, has an effective combat range at least ten times that of a pistol.

    The Marines don’t seem to know what they want. Only a year or so ago, they decided to withdraw almost all their M9 pistols and replace them with M4 Carbines, on the sensible grounds that (1) the Carbine (for all of its faults) is a vastly superior combat arm to any pistol, and (2) carrying a pistol marked out the officers, who became prime targets. So now they are saying that they want to buy pistols again?

    As far as going back to the M1911 is concerned – look at the press release, it’s from Colt not the USMC. The USMC has said nothing about wanting the M1911, just that they will be “seeking proposals from the defense industry”. So you can be sure that HK will be in there bidding, along with a lot of others.

    Have the USMC even specified the calibre they want? There’s been a lot of flip-flopping over this within the US military over the past few years, with supporters of .40 S&W and .45 Auto arguing the toss, but the last definite news was that a huge order has been placed for more 9mm M9s.

    • Casey

      They are buying 1911 pistols only for Recon and SOC units. Not as a standard pistol. The M9 is the standard service pistol

  • charles222

    Yeah, there’s considerably better options than the 1911A1 for a combat environment-like the FBI’s original custom Para P13.45s they bought for the Hostage Rescue Team.

    The ditching of the 1911A1 was a thoroughly good move at the time. 1) Pistols are irrelevant for the majority of soldiers; 2) the 1911s in question were increasingly old and falling apart(I have a friend who recently reenlisted who was in the Marines in the 1980s/early 1990s during the 1911-Beretta transition who’s told me that when a .45 stopped working it became trash, as there were no spare parts left for them, and keeping the MEU(SOC) pistols around through the 1990s to present suffered from the same issues (and that’s a tiny quantity of pistols compared to military-wide) 3) the old 1911 had terrible sights, trigger, and accuracy in general and 4) all of NATO was using 9mm, and it was therefore stupid to potentially have to be shipping two types of pistol ammo during wartime, especially for a weapon that isn’t going to see much use anyway in that kind of conflict.

  • http://wordpress.pocosin.com counsel

    Heh… Why not the FN? The FN has more capacity, the safety, a decocker, and is much easier to take apart. Add to that mix that the FN shoots like a charm…

  • vereceleritas

    I like 1911′s as much as the next guy but I must be one of the few who doesn’t believe the military should go back to it. There are reasons we switched in the first place. Heavy, SAO, 7 round magazines, relatively high maintenance. There are better options for a combat pistol. The M45 is probably going to be limited to Force Recon and MARSOC so the rest of us Marines will never see it anyway.

    As far the XD and M&P. I don’t think the military will ever go with a striker fired pistol especially if it doesn’t have a manual safety. XD’s are also made in Croatia. It would need to be made domestically to even have a chance.

  • MarkM

    Hm, your primary weapon is either down or won’t work as well in tight quarters, so you transistion to the pistol. You may still have mulitple opponents to engage, it’s Murphyville and anything could and will go wrong.

    Do you want 7 rounds or 16+?
    Single or double action for restrike capability? Exposed hammer or striker?
    If grappling with multiple opponents, a mag disconnect to disable the weapon?
    Non-corroding lightweight construction, or machined steel needing extra coatings, and high intrinsic weight that has a lower round count penalty?
    A design based on a 110 year old system, or the improved, newer one based on actual combat use the same designer used to meet actual combat conditions?

    Single action single stack pistols were superceded by double action double stack guns for good reasons, both designed by Browning. He was responding to actual combat lessons learned. 1911′s on the uniform of a combat soldier are not the end design of the Browning legacy, the Hipower is.

    The combat improvements of the ’70′s/’80′s frequently adopted to the 1911 system were double action, double stack. Most competent pistoleros considered them combat improvements and effective.

    Apparently the decision makers are not considering this in the same light Browning and many others did, and that’s what we would like to know.

    Why the 1911 when it’s obsolete?

  • gunslinger

    @Glen – could you shed some additional light? there is the saying that goes along the lines of if it hasn’t changed in x years it HAS to be good. but also there is the one about not changing for the sake of not changing. what technical pros and cons are offered between the two systems? thanks in advance.

    btw, I’m looking to get a .45 as my next firearm purchase. I’ve fired an XD and a glock, but it just didn’t feel right in my hands. my hands aren’t that big to comfortably hold a double stack mag. I haven’t fired the 1911 yet, but i was leaning towards it. I’d definitely shoot one before buying though.

  • LCON

    They also Forgot the Springfield Armory Loaded MC Operator that as also offered.

  • PKelley

    What advances?

    They have to make special classes for them to compete with a 1911 in IPSC and that other pistol sport.

  • William C.

    The M1911 is dead. Long live the M1911.

  • Lance

    Remember these pistols are for MEU and SOCOM units only this isn’t a M-9 replacement. Since the USMC is staying with current weapons I doubt there will be much more BIG NEWS like this from the Corps.

  • Aurelien

    Glen, i think the Marines (and most SF guys) really like single action pistols.
    And i do understand that. 1911s and HPs have crisp triggers, shoot well and can be modified from top to bottom to get exactly what you want.

    On the other hand, there are a lot of more modern handguns in the market, like the M&P, the new CZ75 P-07…

    • Walt

      Let the guys carry the weapons they like. Ammo resupply is not a big problem, and reliability is good on the M1911. Standardization is for lemmings.

  • http:tinyurl.comrootman root man

    Bah.. this is the one for the Corps.

    http://karllippard.com/military/Combat-NCO.html

    Will 1911 be the best forever?

    Looks like it..

    rm

  • Matt G

    The 1911 is a great gun. .45 is a great round. But I don’t get this.

    I carry a 1911 every day. Because it’s slim and powerful so I can easily conceal it. But if my day job is shooting people. I want more than 8 rounds. And I want something a hell of a lot lighter.

    With all the extremely reliable glocks and m&ps and HKs out there, and the fact that operators dont need to conceal anything, Why the heck would the military want to pay for a bunch of large, heavy, low capacity 1911s?

  • John Naggers

    That NCO 1911A2 looks pretty sweet. It would be even sweeter with some CHip Mcormic 10 round mags.

    Me?, I use my Glock 21 with a Lone Wolf 6″ barrel and Trijicon RMR. I get 12 rounds of flying ashtrays to dishout. It’s big and the exposed barrel burns but #@*& it.

  • http:tinyurl.comrootman root man

    @Matt
    Good points but..
    One reason is they have all the stuff that goes with it… mags, frames, parts, training etc.
    Check out the link on the nco.
    The plastic fantastics probably can’t endure as long as the 1911 much less one like the nco.
    Steel has it’s advantages.
    How many times can you rebuild a gun on a plastic frame?
    If you need capacity, wide body 1911s are out there.
    Not really an issue for the pros.
    The 1911 is not really heavy compared to the real option plastics..
    1911 39oz
    xd 5 inch 32oz
    hk 45 31 oz
    Maybe the coprs. thinks the durability, reliability etc. overcome the oz etc.
    Those ozs are nice when you are trying to fire the 45s fast and accurate..

  • zack991

    Rosco S. Benson on rec.guns “Is the 1911 an Outdated Design?”

    Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman’s district. Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design….and that’s exactly what I love about it.

  • Aurelien

    “Single action single stack pistols were superceded by double action double stack guns for good reasons, both designed by Browning. He was responding to actual combat lessons learned. 1911′s on the uniform of a combat soldier are not the end design of the Browning legacy, the Hipower is.”

    MarkM, the FN HP/GP is very much single action.
    As a matter of fact, the last design by JM Browning was even a striker-fired single action. But at the time it was seen as dangerous, so Dieudonné Saive (the guy that introduced the 2-rows hicap mag), when he took over after the death of JMB, went back to the single action with external hammer and thumb safety.
    And i have to say, the GP/HP is still a very good handgun. Even after years of abuse it will still run like nothing else.

    I’ll say the Marines follow the “if it’s not broken don’t fix it” motto. Force Recon/MARSOC has been using the 1911 platform for a good half century, their guys are proficient with it, they have the accessories and spare parts, and PWS knows them top to bottom.
    I would say that is reason enough

  • MarcW

    @PKelley
    Reliability, accuracy, maintainability, capacity. And the IDPA has a special class just for 1911s because they are not competitive unless you do a lot of tricking out. Nobody in his right mind would carry a race gun into combat.

  • michael

    spot on mark….

  • SoulTown

    Uh, let’s not forget that the HK45 only has 10 rounds in its magazine. And 1911s run great with extended 10 round mags.

    Also, LAV did a sand test on several pistols.

    I quote him:

    “Sand Test
    Just had a chance to do a harsh sand test on few different handguns. This test was not scientific but was very enlightening.

    “Pistols tested were; HK USP Tactical
    Customized 1911
    rack grade GI 1911
    Glock 21

    “Test consisted of placing each pistol loaded in a Bianchi GI field holster inside a plastic bag with approx 2 cups of fine/medium grit sand ( North Carolina type). Then the bag was shaken vigorously for 10 seconds while holding onto the pistol butt for safety. The pistol was then taken out and 3 mags were fired through the 1911 and 2 fully loaded mags were fired through the HK and Glock – roughly the same amount of ammo. The sand coverage was very good and uniformly covered the pistols. The pistols were loaded in the mode you would expect in a field environment – condition 3 for the 1911, loaded for the Glock and loaded in DA mode for the USP.A test was done dry and lubed with TW 25B. This test represented EXTREME sand conditions – not normal field use, even in sandy conditions.A brief rundown of the results follow;

    “1)Carrying your gun dry in this environment is a NO GO despite what some will say. All pistols performed worse dry than lubed.

    “2)All pistols required some manipulation in order to fire – none would function normally straight out of the holster.

    “3)Overall the HK USP performed the best – the performance of it dry was roughly the same as the customized 1911 but was definately the best lubed. Overall it performed well.

    “4)The custom 1911 was second – interestingly enough the trigger track was not a real problem – the sand that went in through the ejection port to the bottom lugs area caused the most problems. Once the sand shifted in this area the pistol functioned better.

    “5)The rack grade GI 1911 was a distant third – the custom 1911 had an 18 pound recoil spring and that helped with feeding greatly vs the rack grade gun. Swap out the recoil spring and it probably would have done better.

    “6)The shocker of the day – the Glock 21 FAILED terribly. The big problem was failure of the trigger to reset. Also at times the pistol would not fire due to sand in the trigger mechanism. The dry test could not even be completed with the Glock due to this.This surprised all of us as we expected the Glock to do quite well.

    “Moral of the story; The 1911, even in its customized mode, can get the job done if you set it up to succeed. Lube it right, carry it in the right holster and in the proper mode, and it won’t let you down – just like it hasn’t for nearly a 100 years.

    “The HK USP series are good guns – well designed and well made – for service pistols. The ergonomics hurt the pistol dramatically but for an out of the box service pistol/field gun, they get my endorsement.

    “The Glock 21 is a dog – always has been. It has the rep of being the worst gun Glock makes. I have a Glock 17 and 19 and like them for what they are – but don’t get sucked into the Glock hype – they are not magical guns. Remember what your dad said when you were in 3rd grade; don’t believe everything you read.

    “Hope you guys got something out of this – I did.

    “Larry Vickers”

  • subase

    Gonna take more than an unrealistic bag with sand and shake test to put the Glock behind the HK USP and custom 1911′s in reliability. I have a sand test where the HK USP jammed shut, requiring disassembly, while the Glock 21 worked without issues.

    Also you might find it interesting that Vickers personally led the development of the HK45. And let’s not forget his working on the HK416. I detect a conflict of interests.

    I heard that the early versions of the Glock 21 had problems when firstintroduced but no longer. Perhaps tha’st the reason for it’s failure.

  • Thomas

    The Marine Corp has been trying to get back to the .45ACP since they were forced to adopt the M9. They have even gone so far as to purchase the components and assemble their own 1911s. Why? Because the 45ACP, in FMJ is far superior to the 9mm in that configuration.

    There are several things to take into consideration re: military pistol usage.
    First, the pistol is a secondary weapon for most of the troops. It will be utilized at close to very close range and usually after the primary weapon has either failed or run dry. Therefor, it has to be effective in stopping a close range adversary quickly. The .45acp is superior to the 9mm in this area.
    Second, the military pistol is also used as a sentry removal tool and in clandestine operations. In these roles, the weapon has to be not only a reliable stopper, but capable of effective sound suppression. Again, the 45acp, with its sub-sonic projectile and larger cross section is superior.
    Third, the weapon has to be capable of comfortable operation by a large variety of differently sized individuals. Large capacity magazines sometimes make it difficult for operators with small hands to comfortably grip and fire certain pistols. Use of the M9 has been a problem for female personnel for since its adoption.

    While the 1911 is not the only .45acp platform that would fit the bill, it is, none the less a viable candidate. And, it has the advantage of indigenous manufacture.

  • Mike N

    All things being equal, any single action handgun, with excellent reliability, a crisp trigger, and easily usable/visible sights, chambered in .45 would fit the bill.

    I can think of only 2: the 1911 and the SIG P220 SAO.

    I haven’t found a double action trigger that would cause me to trade in my 1911 trigger, and that includes the SIG triggers. Double action triggers are designed to defend against lawsuits, not perpetrators.

    The first time I picked up a 1911, it felt correct. It pointed correctly. Even with my eyes closed it points correctly. I shoot better with it than any other pistol I have ever (and that has been a bunch) used.

    When the day comes that some other handgun can supplant that feel and shoot-ability, I would gladly recommend it above the 1911.

    I suspect it will feel like a 1911, weigh 25oz, and hold 15rds of .45 ;)

  • Marc

    @Thomas:
    Because they FEEL that 45ACP, in FMJ is far superior to the 9mm in that configuration.

    All attempts to prove this theory failed.

  • Riceball

    I’m curious as to why the Corps is looking into a new pistol, what happened to those Kimber MEUSOC pistols from a while back? Did they not work out, or were they too expensive, or what?

    @Thomas FYI, it’s Corps with an S at the end. A corp is the abbreviation for a corporation not a military unit consisting of two or more divisions.

  • SoulTown

    @subase

    The test was from a while ago, so that may be what’s going on? Plus, it’s not like LAV is going around advocating HK products. LAV personally recommends Glocks over 1911s for the majority of shooters.

    I personally adore G19s.

    @Thomas

    Very aptly put.

  • subase

    I believe Thomas has hit it on the head. A case of different needs. In the military as a backup gun they are used very very rarely, so round count isn’t that important. 1911′s trigger and accuracy will come in handy for suppressed taking out of sentries (headshots are possible) and their small grip becomes even more useful when you consider almost all troops wear gloves.

    Seen from this perspective, it is really a specialist weapon, for special missions. The HK’s would be a superior option, as would double stack custom 1911′s but they are alot more expensive and the increased magazine capacity isn’t really needed.

  • subase

    If you look closely, the HK Mk.23 developed for Delta and the H45 also developed by Delta members, are basically more expensive 1911′s. They were meant to replace the role of the 1911′s but like the M4 replacements, didn’t offer enough of a performance increase to justify the price.

    Saying that, I think alot of marines and such are ignorant over the real use of the 1911 by special forces, and believe they use it cause it’s a better defense pistol. But that’s probably not the case it’s an offensive pistol meant to be used suppressed. And the traditional 1911 offers the best bang for the buck. (unless they go para-ordnance, double stack designs are too finicky or expensive)

  • Aurelien

    @Subase : the Mk23 was developped for the SEALs as an experimental offensive handgun. They are in fact expensive .45ACP pistols not suited for self-defense (but then again, not the original purpose). The swimmer teams seemed to be pretty fond of them.
    But the most expensive thing about the Mk23 was ditching them after paying the bill. Seen as they were pretty “H&K priced”, they could at least have been used until they started failing.

    I would say the big pro-.45ACP argument is the fact that when you compare the velocity of a .45ACP and 9mm NATO rounds, the .45 ACP is slower.
    And a slower round in a full steel handgun will outlast a faster round in a plastic or alloy handgun any time of the week.

  • Lance

    Most found the MK23 too BIG for pistol perposes the US Navy SEALS where the only service to adopt it the army found them too bulky and stayed with M-9. The USMC is staying wth the M-9 for ordany uses for MP and tank crews and so on. They even with Berettas help even improved the design in the M-9A1. The Spec Ops communitty uses pistols far more offten than other units in the service they want .45 pistol for special perpses that a 9mm cant do. both pistols will be around for a long time.

  • http://www.example.com/~me/ me

    I may regret it but I feel compelled to weigh in here myself.

    I hold the 1911A1 and the .45 ACP cartridge near and dear to my heart and have loved both for many years.

    Some of the criticisms of the 1911A1 can be mitigated by modern manufacturing. A 1911A1 made of stainless steel, then treated with black Tenifer or Melonite finish would be every bit as corrosion-resistant as a Glock. It might even contribute to reliability by reducing the ability of sand and similar fine foreign matter to remain in the slide grooves and jam them–perhaps the ultra-hard, ultra-slick cyanided surface finish would grind the sand to dust like a hammer mill and dump it out the front and rear, as the MG42′s roller locks were said to do. Better sights, or at least sights more suited to the modern technique, have been created and it is trivial to add them. The 1911′s trigger when the fire control parts are properly tuned and hand-fitted is a thing of rare and astonishing beauty, and in the last fifteen years advances in machining technology have allowed for true drop-in match-grade hammer and sear sets that just drop in and work (IF frame dimensions are perfectly, exactly to spec).

    It would still be a handgun designed before World War I, with a single column magazine, a fragile leaf-spring sear spring, and an internal extractor, infamously intolerant of any ammunition other than roundnose FMJ, massively, monstrously, unreasonably heavy for the seven (7) rounds of ammo it carries.

    I love my Series 70 Colt. I love to shoot it at the range. If I hear glass breaking at three in the morning, I’m reaching for my XD45, which brings twice the ammo to the party at ten ounces less weight, with no worries about whether 230-grain Gold Dot JHPs are going to hang up on the feedramp. The trigger pull is long and heavy, but you get used to it. I know that’s heresy.

    And here’s another heresy. I am old and fat and gimpy, and I’m not going to be walking point any more. But if I were, and I had the choice, I’d rather carry an additional three mags for my M16 for the same weight as the 1911 and its holster, because ninety more rounds of rifle ammo seem to me to be a pretty fair tradeoff for ANY pistol.

  • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ Tony Williams

    @me: “And here’s another heresy. I am old and fat and gimpy, and I’m not going to be walking point any more. But if I were, and I had the choice, I’d rather carry an additional three mags for my M16 for the same weight as the 1911 and its holster, because ninety more rounds of rifle ammo seem to me to be a pretty fair tradeoff for ANY pistol.”

    I totally agree. The argument often used is that the pistol is a backup in case the rifle jams – but surely developing a more reliable rifle would be a better approach.

  • Aurelien

    @Tony : i would agree that for the average foot/line soldier the handgun just has no purpose whatsoever. So you can ditch it and carry a few more mags. Carrying a handgun just gives the guy a feeling he’s “one of the guys”, like the SF.
    As for SF, they tend to do some special work and sometimes need a handgun.
    And the M45 is for SOF use.

  • SoulTown

    @ Tony Williams

    Yes, but even the most reliable rifle will run out of ammo. That’s why transition drills are stressed in many training programs.

  • gunslinger

    @me, Tim: What happens when the rifle is inoperable? those extra 90 rounds aren’t doing you any good. ;-) Just saying

    in a “more perfect” world, the primary weapon won’t jam or become inoperable. but unfortunately we don’t have that luxury. and as i heard on a gun show last night “the pistol is a tool to get to a rifle (long gun)” and that’s how i feel.

    so a secondary weapon is just that. secondary. a backup, a means to hold over until a primary can be reestablished.

  • Dan Lamothe

    Thanks for your interest in the article. It’s worth pointing out that it’s not a military.com piece, but one by Marine Corps Times.

  • Jeff m

    I think they should go with the .40, police use it, and to hell with FMJ whoever came up with that in geneva didnt think well, bullets are supposed to kill you FMJ just requires more of them… .40 ,JHP, m&p or glock and xd, just let the soldier pick they are all damn simple and reliable

  • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ Tony Williams

    @SoulTown: “Yes, but even the most reliable rifle will run out of ammo.”

    Yep – but much less likely if you’re carrying three extra mags instead of the pistol!

    @gunslinger: “What happens when the rifle is inoperable?”

    That’s why I made the point about getting a more reliable rifle: the M4 Carbine doesn’t show up that well in comparative reliability tests, even ones done by the US Army.

  • subase

    The .45 acp choice is pretty obvious. It’s the best manstopper in FMJ. That it also runs naturally subsonic is a big bonus. Combine the two and it’s worth getting another pistol in that calibre. But notice the history of the Joint Combat Pistol program. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Combat_Pistol
    Coincidentally if you look at the list of pistols entered only the HK45C is single stack.

    For special forces use a supressed handgun is important. Covert night operations as well as undercover concealed carry are situations they get into. But the Marines? When do they need a pistol? Only in CQB when looking for cover to reload or when out of ammunition or when their rifle malfunctions. Running out of ammunition is a common occurrence and when that happens it is arguable whether the increased rate of fire and capacity the M9 offers is inferior to the increased stopping power but slower rate of fire of a .45 calibre pistol. (even if it does use double stack magazines)

    The story I heard mentioned of marines heading into houses with pistols, cause their more maneuverable sounds like a lie. Who would chose to go into a house with a pistol rather than a fully automatic rifle?

    I really don’t see any use for this pistol for the marines. Does anyone else?

    • recon24d

      you say the hk 45c was the only single stack? i know a sig p220 sitting in my holster i can assure thats a single stack and virtually every 1911 is single stack with a few exceptions. it might seem a little odd on its face the services considering single stack pistols but you have to look at the handgun’s role in combat. its to cover your ass whilst you get your real weapon back into service or whilst you crawl to another rifle. the second reason is the single stack mag is just plain a more robust design and less prone to binding and failure. anyone thats ever carried an m9 can attest to mag problems being major problems

  • subase

    Actually I take the above back, in the Joint Combat Pistol Program (this program was supposed to replace the M9), the majority of the pistols use single stack magazines. This sounds pretty unacceptable.

    Heckler & Koch HK45C – single stack
    SIG P220 Combat – single stack
    Ruger P345 – single stack
    Smith & Wesson M&P – double stack
    Glock 21SF – double stack
    Beretta Px4 Storm – single stack
    Taurus PT 24/7 OSS – single stack
    Fabrique Nationale FNP45-USG – single stack
    HS-45 – double stack (Springfield XD)
    Para-Ordnance LDA 1911 – ironically double stack (I presume)

  • Aurelien

    Subase, once again, the M45 is for SOF units of the Marines. The average leatherneck officer/gunner will still carry the M9A1.

  • Lance

    Yeah I dont get the hype the JCPP is cancelled and wont be regergatated for some time due to the shrinking DOD budget. Only SOCOM uses .45s and the USMC is buying alot of new M-9 and M-9A1 pistols.

  • Conor

    There’s this nifty little idea called “mission selective gear”, it means pick out what is best for the job. If it’s an offensive mission, take a suppressed .45 with a laser/light combo with a high cap mag (HK USP45). If your hauling heavy gear through mountains, get a light 9mm like the M9. In the end, pistols are generally means to get a rifle when yours brakes. I would rather have a tricked out HK USP45 than an M4 inside a building, because .45 works far better than 5.56 at two feet away.

  • Dr. Prepper

    I got rid of ever 9mm pistol that I owned….a Sig P228, Sig P226 and finally a Springfield XD 9mm sub-compact. Why?

    Because after working 15 years as an emergency-room x-ray tech including trauma in Galveston Texas, downtown Houston, the US Navy and in San Diego & Oceanside’s civilian hospitals….I got tired of seeing scrawny crackheads and little gang-bangers coming in with 9mm bullet holes in their chests and extremities still taklin’, complainin’, movin’ and acting like they could get up and run-off.

    If you can’t drop a 135lb. surf-town gang banger with two 9mm shots to the chest how in the heack is that 9mm going to stand up against a motivated soldier in body armor or a jihadist who doesn’t value his or her own life to begin with?

    I now carry a glock 22 with extended mag and +P hollow points for self-D here in Texas and at home the wife has the choice of a Colt 1991A1 .45ACP or a Para Ordinance double-stacker P45 with .45ACP hollow points.

    The adoption of the 9mm only proves that our military leadership does not stand up to civilian politicos and their bean-counters and that our soldiers enter every theater under-armed.

    The only place a 9mm belongs on the modern battlefield is a Coalition general’s sidearm (since he’ll never ever need to use it.)

    • J Hall

      I’m sorry,but .45acp ain’t gonna go thru body armor either,and no,its not going to have the power to smash up whats behind the armor making that irrelevant,etc,etc.
      Recently,I got a new book written by a former cop and (IIRC) former MP named Loren Christensen on how to deal with pain resistant attackers.
      He tells a story of a officer involved shooting where a maniac with a knife has to be shot 5 times (!) in the chest with the “mighty .45″ before being effectively stopped.
      Not to downplay your medical experience because I certainly don’t have it,but maybe the reason you see so many shooting victims with 9mm wounds is because of how popular and common the caliber is,especially with the kind of crowd that your talking about.
      Most “service” handgun calibers (9,.40,.45,etc) do not have significant terminal ballistic effects that set them way above and beyond others.
      In my humble opinion,if the USMC was absolutely serious about having a handgun caliber that did,they’d go to .460 Rowland or something similar.

  • http://the-zombie-hunter.blogspot.com TZH

    I still swear by a hi-cap .40 1911 (18 + 1 magazine) of IPSC standard division goodness.

    I do love the cerekote finish

  • Jim

    Maybe MARSOC should also adapt the Springfield .45-70 Trapdoor Carbine and reissue white web gear. Next they can test wooden long boats to row ashore silently in. Maybe they can even bring back brass lanterns to signal with.

    Since MARSOC gets a lot of back fill foreign training missions that SF doesnt want to do, maybe a sword might be handy also.

    But If they expect to hump up 10,000ft mountains in trashcanistan doing reconn and patrols while carrying steel frame .45 pistols and extra ammo they will soon find out just how much every ounce of weight counts. When they get those kinds of SOCOM missions thier retro .45s will be left behind.

    • Fidelis

      excuse me sir- Have you ever even *held* a 1911? for that matter- have you ever held an M9? they weigh the same. seriously man, 2.3 and 2.2 pounds (from my scale.) and these are freaking *MARINES!* a tenth of a pound?! they carry an extra tenth of a pound in balls!

  • J Hall

    At this point in our military history when handguns (“sidearms”) are being carried as backup weapons by more and more soldiers then just being carried by officers and those not issued rifles, I think that it might be better to standardize the major service calibers for issue and allow the individual soldier to choose his own piece.
    As long as its in a supplied caliber,and is a sound design (there should be a list of weapons “unacceptable for duty”),why not?