Big gun, Short lived. Taurus 28 Gauge Revolver.
On Friday night Michael Bane told me that BATFE visited the Taurus booth at SHOT Show and declared that the 28 gauge revolver was in fact a SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun), not a handgun.
Guns America removed a blog post about the pistol (H/T: TruthAboutGuns) and replaced it with the following text...
Editor Note: Taurus has removed this firearm from their booth and has elected to not make it at this time. The rifle version will be available through Rossi at some point.
Taurus USA imports their pistols from the Taurus factory in Brazil. If they were imported the sample 28 gauge SBS and specified in the US Customs / BATFE paperwork that is was a pistol, they could be in trouble.
I contacted the Taurus PR but I have not yet received a reply.
UPDATE: According to Taurus PR this information is apparently not correct.
If Taurus just lengthened the barrel then they could produce the gun. While technically a shotgun, if I can still hold it in my hand then it is a handgun as far as I’m concerned.
Its just a marketing ploy to empty peoples wallets and the gun industry loses a lot of sleep figuring out how to do it. They know exactly where people store their dumb buttons and know how to push them. All these things are is just a less embarrassing way for a guy to buy a penis pump.
I know what you’re thinking: “Did he fire six shots, or only five?” Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I’ve kinda lost track myself. But you’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Do I feel lucky?” Well do ya, punk?
Great looking gun, but needs to be in 12 gauge. Seriously. 12 gauge. I need a hand cannon. F the BATF. Not everyone lives in the United States. Spin a globe around sometimes….
As of late we are having a massive mountain lion issue in my area in NE Missouri. I cut wood for 100% of my heat, and would feel better to have this on my side rather then the 20 gauge shot gun I have to leave leaned against something outta reach while I cut. As soon as these hit the store I am getting one. Three people have lost their lives in my area and two mountain lions have been killed by hunters.
Keltec plr 16 Weight 3 lbs. classification pistol. Will hold up to 60 rounds .223 hollow points. can be carried on single point sling and equipped with a tiny pulsating green laser. Mountain lions no problem.
The proliferation of gun nuts getting in the public’s face over a weapon that has no real use for civilian self defense or anything else that can think of is just going to put another nail in the coffin of the second amendment. I am a gun person for personal self defense. After reading all the rants on various gun forums by gun crazies I can see how people who are sitting on the fence about guns in America can fall off on the anti gun side.
I have to agree with hicusdicus. Shoot off your mouth and you may very well end up shooting the pro-gun lobby it the foot. Some of these absurd guns are akin to BillyBob Dumbbunny wanting drive his ginuwhine NASCAR racer to the store for a loaf of bread. While it is not illegal to be absurd, whether we are discussing guns, cars or education, to sway public opinion to our point of view requires just a tad bit of common sense and diplomacy when dealing with fence straddlers.
OK, I am new to the site. Where is the thread for this “hot debate”?
Some law-people are so stupid. As if the bad guys would say, “I’d love a shortbarrelled, handgungripped shotgun for a bank job later today. But damn the luck, the good BATFE says I can’t have one! I guess I’ll stay home and bake some cookies.”
Feel good regulations actually make us LESS SAFE.
I’m from the northern Rocky Mountains. A 28 gauge handgun would be perfect when hunting mountain grouse in deep forest (Ruffled, Blue, and Franklin’s). I usually trout fish in the mountains in late summer and early fall, and carry my .410
“Judge” along just in case mountain grouse are encountered. Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming allow the use of a handgun to procure mountain grouse.
I also carry a couple hot loaded .45 Colt cartridges in my gun just in case of a grizzly bear attack (plus, pepper spray).
Another bizarre legal ruling. If the gun fires deer slugs what makes it any different than another pistol????
Being an AOW doesn’t make it illegal in all cases, neither would being full-auto or a nuclear weapon; it’s a question of how many hoops have to be jumped through, and the priorities of the manufacturer that might keep them from wanting the hassle. And it adds substantially to the ways it can be illegal, something more casual buyers might as soon avoid having to dance around/risk getting nicked on.
It’s unprecedented, that I’m aware of, for a major manufacturer to do AOW’s for civilian sale; the opposite has been the trend, Colt got spooked away from selling anything less than 90 years old to civs at all. Several big manufacturers have tried to police their product lines away from anything controversial (and in one case suck up a little too dearly to an anti-gun administration, whose new regulations might have forced business their way by limiting a key advantage of competing designs), even if it’s nominally unregulated and/or protected by the Constitution, rather than say, get tooled up for something that’ll attract bad press or be banned. Adding to that that they have to be imported, that’s a couple more 3-4 letter agencies to be obeyed.
As many people have already stated this would qualify as an AOW. My question is, how does that actually make it illegal. There is a dealer at many of the local gun shows, who sells a modified Mossberg 12 ga shotgun. It has pistol grips and roughly a 12 inch barrel. My understanding is, that it is a legal gun to buy, you just pay an extra tax to the ATF upon transfer.
Just so you’ll know,a 500S&W mag 500gr is like a 12 Gauge shotgun slug in power.
how about they just shoot a .500 S&w out of it? the case diameter of that and the 28 gauge shot shell are very close, .025 off in fact, the bullet would be a little loose in the chamber, but it’d probably fire with no problems….i hope taurus is listening….
As an update to this blog post, several sources including American Rifleman’s coverage of SHOT, are now saying that the gun has been approved and before being commercially available there will be some minor modifications.
See: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/judge-goes-bigger-bore/
Apparently the info in this blog post was just a bunch of rumor and the Taurus booth was never “raided” by the ATF.
Greetings from Texas,
Arsnof, for what it’s worth, Hellboys handgun was more of a Webley design. I wouldn’t mind having that one either!
Maybe we should ask Taurus to put sling swivels on the actual product?
Quite frankly, not knowing the actual verbatum wording of the regs, I was wondering how they were going to get it approved. You folks have enlightened me.
I don’t think the BATF agents made a “ruling”. The previous comment about the judiciary making the final decision is correct, but that wouldn’t stop an enforcement person from taking action. They are taught what is and isn’t allowed, not finer points of law, and then they are to decide to take action or not. Same with a traffic ticket (simplistic example, but a correct one) in that an officer sees what he/she thinks is a violation (none are total experts on all the traffic codes) then they issue a citation, and a judge later decides who was right, by making a ruling in court. The difference is a legislature makes traffic codes…, the Fed agencies arbitrarily make their regulations. The executive branch isn’t supposed to be making law, only enforcing it, at any level.
I’d like to see a 28 gauge multiball round with a couple of .490 lead round balls so it isn’t shooting a “single projectile”. So each round fired would be an automatic “double tap”. That would only be a combined weight of 360 grains, which is toward the bottom end of a load for a .500 S&W. As such ballistic vests wouldn’t be threatened, and with a moderate powder charge it could be quite good for HD, and with a hot powder charge pretty good on game.
I think I will buy one just because it’s oddly cool…, assuming that the Govt and the Peoples Repubic of Maryland will allow me to do so.
I am having troublr finding a holster for the gun???
I, personally, was going with the “What point is there to that?” attitude. But then I got to thinking about wives I’ve known and food I’ve eaten, and the answer is “You know what? Somebody is going to think that this is just exactly what they want, and by God they should be able to have it.” Heck, I’d probably get one just to have it.
But really, what more do you NEED than a…wait, then there’s this purpose, than that one, then this thing is kinda pretty, and then…
I assume that Taurus will now issue letters to those who were already given (advance prototypes) this beauty? Sorry gent’s, the cat is out of the bag. Don’t fret comrads. Be patient
Well, according to http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2011/01/uncapping-taurus-products.html , the ATF did no such thing. They would have already had to have gotten ATF approval to even bring that thing to the show. My guess as to why it IS legal is this: It falls right in between being a > .50 cal DD and an SBS/AOW without meeting all of the requirements of either. The law about > .50 cal being a destructive device actually states any rifled bore greater than .50 cal ‘intended to fire single rounds’. The Judge 28 rifling is optimized for shot, and it won’t chamber anything other than 28 gauge shells. Likewise, the gun is designed to fire shot, and it definitely has a barrel shorter than 18″, but it has a rifled barrel and is clearly a pistol. It seems that Taurus has managed to make a gun that skirts both areas of the law, but falls outside of the letter, and obviously the spirit, of both as well.
How exactly did they get a hold of Hellboy’s gun?
You got onto Gizmodo, Steve! I find it intriguing how soon after you sold the blog and I already see my favorite blog showing up all over the internet!
But to be relevant to the topic, I can only begin to imagine how much kick this baby would have. And cost would probably be pretty hefty as well.
I think they just through it in that category (SBS). Let us face the truth though, is this a pistol? Would people use this gun as such? Second, the company will not have any problems. They are a dealer and this was a prototype that was not up for sale. Third, I know we like to keep politics out of things, but politics is apart of life and we must stay involved.
Update from gunsamerica
Editor Note: I got a tweet from Michael Bane that this gun is not being canceled by Taurus and that BATFE has approved it. I am putting this back up for now until things become clearer.
I think it’s an absurd ruling – those shells can get fired through a 0.500 rifled barrel, I’m not sure at this point if that’s how Taurus tried to make it happen that way. You can say rules-are-rules, but they just decided the Franchi SPAS was a destructive device; the fuzzy side of the rule lies in the manufacturers’ and innovators’ territory, where they’re compelled by natural forces to see what they can get away with, so it becomes an artificial money pit.
Not an SBS…. It’s an AOW! These must be the new administration ATF agents…. Apparently the vagaries of the NFA eluded them.
@BobSmith
Except that based on our informed interpretation of the BATF’s own regulations and precedent it should either be completely legal or very close to legal, close enough to only require a few small modifications.
Laws and regulations restricting firearms are very convoluted and in a constant state of flux (see PGO shotgun pistols.) It is nerve wracking for owners who do not want their property retroactively declared illegal, and frustrating to those toiling under restrictive (and probably invalid) restrictions.
Guns, not politics. We want to see this crazy but fun gun legal, so that we can shoot it.
Isn’t BATF a part of the executive branch? They job is to carry out the law, not interpret it.
It should be a part of the judicial branch that makes the call.
Though I guess thats covered by an appeal.
(I have no opinion on the validity of the gun’s classification)
Joust
It seems that Michael Bane, who is referenced at the top of this post is reporting that the BATF just requested that Taurus make some modifications to it to make it more acceptable.
I see a lot of people getting very cranky about how this is some sort of “absurd” ruling, but is it? It’s a pistol that shoots, exclusively, shotgun shells. It’s under the length requirements for shotguns. I mean, maybe you don’t like those particular rules, but it’s not like this is a weird call to make, if you’re following those rules. What’s weird is that Taurus thought they could get away with this, when it’s in clear violation of BATF rules.
So, lobby to get the rules changed, I guess, but don’t blame BATF agents for following them.
BATFE, Making $%^& up as we go for 100 years!
Gunslinger,
My argument was a rhetorical one based upon the argument used by the antis – my own home is defended with smaller bore handguns but with significantly more power than this piece is capable of.
Just goes to show that as far as guns are concerned, none of the laws really make any sense, but then, I am only repeating what I said in my earlier post.
Don’t forget, by rule, over .50 it’s a DD, unless exempt. I think the BAFT agent simply decided to play it safe and consider it non-exempt until told otherwise. The DD sporting exemption was what killed the Street Sweeper too, it was just not a design very suitable for hunting.
That thing rivals Hell Boy’s Samaritan in size !
Might be fun on a skeet range, too big to conceal, but I’m sure Hollywood would love it.
Over .50 bore ATF starts talking destructive devices. Sporting purposes tests aren’t tests, they are opinions from a person or persons who doesn’t like any sport that isn’t played with a ball.
An AR chambered for 28 gauge would be possible with a new bolt and an 18″ barrel and maybe a 20 round magazine.
A 28 gauge revolver might be a lot of fun on skeet from the holster or do you carry that on a single point sling?
@Mehul
I’m not sure i’d want a HDG that only maims a BG. considering todays litigious society, i’m not sure if i would to have all the extra lawsuits.
but ultimately, i would never wish to be in a situation where i had to face that decision.
If the sporting purpose of any handgun larger than. 5 can be approved (hunting boar close-up), I don,t see a problem hunting duck close-up. Or is the atf stating the hunter would have no luck?
The rules are plain and simple. It is a rifled barrel over 50 caliber, this makes it a Destructive Device. If they don’t rifle the barrel it is a shotgun and due to barrel length becomes an Any Other Weapon (AOW). The ATF field rep was incorrect in calling it a short barreled shotgun but that matters little…it is still very clearly an illegal firearm.
BATFE more dangerous to America than Al Quaeda!
Oh, and that revolver is cartoonishly large. The Judge revolvers are pushing the size limit. That thing is silly big.
I want to say that there were similar legal issues when gunsmiths took then-inexpensive .45ACP revolvers and installed smooth-bore barrels or cut out the rifling. I guess the cylinders were too short for .410 shells, but maybe they were trying to do something with CCI .45ACP shotshells??? Maybe someone remembers what I’m talking about or could find something with an internet search?
I don’t think this makes SBS status… It could certainly be considered a DD, though.
Some reference:
A shotgun, per ATF’s NFA Handbook:
“A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.”
A Destructive Device, from the NFA Handbook:
“…Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. ATF has issued rulings classifying specific shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable forfor sporting purposes.”
(And yes, “forfor” is a direct quote)
Interestingly, that last one would include Nerf guns, since it states “by the action of an explosive OR OTHER PROPELLENT,” which would include compressed air.
Thanks for the clarification. I will race down to Toys R Us and stock up on nerf guns. No doubt they are deadly with that oversized barrel, and perhaps a good substitute for my wimpy Judge.
I’m pretty sure anyway. Smoothbore, < .50" and pistol grip. Iirc
The nitro handguns are not smoothbore. This is. Making it AOW.
I’m waiting for the 26mm flare projector revolver.
12ga inserts anyone?
We need to reform or remove the NFA. Maybe there should be additional restrictions on certain items (artillery, machine-guns, high-explosives), but the random decision making and arbitrary rulings are just plain annoying. look at GSG-5/22 faux-suppressor, T/C barrels and stocks, this swiss min-gun business, and now this. I mean, what is the big difference between 15″ and 16″ or 17″ and 18″? Nothing significant at all. Measuring barrel lengths is stupid as it has little bearing on concealability (main reason to restrict it), only OAL should be measured if legislators are really worried about it. Maybe BATFE letters should be good forever on existing guns at least so that if they reverse their decision, no one gets punished for their indecision. Maybe require legislative or at least judicial not executive approval for rulings in the negative, and make affirmative decisions more binding for the BATFE. Something should be done, at least so it’s clear to the average citizen what’s legal and what isn’t. Laws should never be out of the range of the average citizen, that’s basically the reason the protestant reformation happened. The Latin the church was using to justify its immoral requirements for the poor peasant populace was the reason Martin Luther posted his theses, it wasn’t fair to the serfs.
Damn! Alcohol Tobacco and Guns are legal!!! Its like paying someone to take away all your coolest toys!!!!! I know, I know…. guns not politics….
@ Bryan and greasyjohn
Yeah, I forgot about the “sporting purpose” clause. Bore diameter is an issue and the basic rule, but ATF can make exceptions for sporting purposes. I didn’t even realize they were making .600 and .700 Nitro handguns! But I do recall reading about the sporting exceptions for those calibers. Maybe it’s still a gun by gun basis though? Who knows when it comes to bureaucracies and arbitrary regulations!
@John
If you look at case dimensions of a .500 Smith and a 28 Gauge I don’t think it’d work. Even if you had a tighter bore at .50, I don’t think the chamber would appropriately accommodate both a .500 casing and a 28 Gauge shell. Plus there’s the transition of the .550″ shot shell mouth to that .50″ bore.
On top of that, if “necking down” the bore was all that it took I suspect someone would have worked that out by now. I think BATF is going to look at the actual shell dimensions regardless of what the muzzle diameter ends up being so logistical and practical issues aside, I don’t think it would meet the legal criteria either. It’s the round that counts.
Tim, at first I thought that Taurus would be able to get around the SBS problem by having a paradox bore (rifling near the muzzle of the barrel) which is likely what the Judge revolvers have.
Just chamber it in 500 and 460 magnum, looks big enough. Maybe even 45-70.
What good does batfe think they’re doing by this? Are they honestly stupid enough to think that this makes people safer by banning it?
All they need is to chamber it in 500 S&W. Then have it fire the 28 guage also. The 5 hundreths of an inch will not matter in a shot shell. Then the barrel will not be more than .500 for a handgun. Case closed. Why did not Taurus think of this. Because they are money people first, shooters and gun makers second. Smith could do this with the 500 easily.
That makes no sense. There are rationales for it being classified as either an AOW, or possibly even a DD, but it’s definitely NOT an SBS as it has no stock and could not possibly be fired from the shoulder.
You can get all the high level signed letters you want, they just decide different at a later date and make the letter useless (just like it was in the beginning anyway, useless).
What needs to be done, and is already being discussed by the freshman congressman and senators, is removing the ability of the acronym agencies to legislate through regulation. Once all “regulation” requires legislative oversite within 1-3 months (as is being discussed) it will really put a damper on the random decision processes in the ATF.
Of course, what did everyone expect when you created agencies, and then gave them enforcement power *AND* regulation power over a single subject. No abuses were ever going to come from that right? (IE, DEA enforces narcotics, makes “rules” on them, and forces doctors to get DEA approval and oversight to manage patients with pain medication.. Let thugs and paper pushers make medical decisions. Awesome idea there folks)
I call BS. How can it be a SBS with no stock? Wouldn’t it be an AOW
You mean shotguns in particular Tim? The Zeliska in .600 Nitro Express and the Thompson/Center in .700 are still legally handguns as far as I know…
My god. That is amazing. The proportions are just ridiculous.
Dealer or manufacturer samples are not covered by the same importation legalities that an individual retail item might have.
BATFE is generally run by idiots, has been since the Carter era
I can’t imagine that the ATF could be so stupid, but then, bureaucracies often excel themselves in doing silly stuff. Some years ago when Hamilton Bowen tried building a 577 cal revolver (the old British chambering was about as powerful as a 38 Sp if you compared muzzle energies) they came down hard on him and stopped him building these revolvers altogether. At the other end of the scale, the ATF bureaucrats banned the 0.10 caliber Swiss Mini Gun revolvers because they decided that these were Saturday Night Specials, never mind that the little things have such a low muzzle energy, that in Europe they are classified as non firearms.
A 28 ga revolver would be an ideal home defense gun. No risk of overpenetration with shotshells especially if someone lives in an apartment, no risk of a perp causing any harm to a police officer who would be wearing a bullet proof vest that could easily resist any ammunition from this, and, if you feel that the idea of defense is to stop and not kill an attacker, this is most probably not kill anyone. The revolver would recoil very little, be easy for someone who might find a larger gauge shotgun difficult to shoot and it could also be a good vermin destruction tool on farms and out in the wilderness where someone is likely to encounter snakes or whatever else. There is a reason why the Taurus and earlier Thunder Five 410 ga revolvers have sold so well. A 28 ga would have been slightly better – go bigger than that and a revolver would become completely unwieldy, negating any possibility of it being handy because of the sheer size of the shotshells that it would use. While the laws banning sawn off shotguns make sense in a 1930s context, considering a 28 ga revolver a sawn off shotgun is so extremely silly that it defies belief. With bureaucracies anywhere in the world, especially when it comes to guns, however, common seense is a very uncommon commodity indeed!
I keep thinking, forget the nominal 0.550 bore of the shell, taper the barrel ID down to 0.499 across the lands, I assume that’s near the range of compression a normal choke has, and if lead bullets can be pinched almost that much it should be no issue for a shot cup, and the grooves would give the load room to displace into. Use as slow of rifling as possible. Just that it might put people in danger if a few thousandths wore off turning it back to a SBS/AOW.
It wouldn’t need an actual rifling-using handgun cartridge to be in existence make it a handgun would it? Just the rifling in the barrel and 0.500 or less…
It wouldn’t be a SBS it would be a AOW like all other smooth bore handguns.
‘I contacted the Taurus PR but I have not yet received a reply.’ – Maybe his phone is broken and was sent back to the shop for the third time to be fixed. Ahem.
As for the BATFE classifying the pistol as an SBS, I’m not really surprised, it’s difficult to think of a ‘sporting purpose’ for this thing unless you’re going duck hunting in a phone booth.
Taurus really mis-Judged this one.
Time for a new shotgun chambering? .500 S&W / .475 bore (my invention) Taurus Angry As Hell Firebreathing Raging Judge revolver in 2012?
Tim: Its not the bore size that is the problem, from what I understand, its the “sporting purposes” issue which is. you have to meet what their whim of an idea sporting matches.
I see lots of new reasons for people to start fighting to get the NFA BS removed from law.
@jdun1911
If you have any legal questions concerning anything within the jurisdiction of the ATF asking an agent is a legal no go. You would contact the judicial branch of ATF in West Virgina in writing and wait a couple of weeks for an official written response to your question(s). If it’s a ruling for a firearms legality in your favor you would carry a copy of the ATF Judical branch letter along with with other specific documents for the weapon in question. Most things verbal do not hold up in court well when it comes to firearms compered to the official written document.
Bore size is the problem. Handguns can’t have anything over .50″. That’s why I didn’t get how they were going to get around that. Apparently the answer was: they couldn’t. The part I really don’t get is how Taurus’ lawyers wouldn’t have known that. It wasn’t exactly a secret rule or anything.
Well, if it looks like a duck, handles like a duck and shoots like a duck, it’s unlikely to be anything other, damnit.
This is very disappointing.
It is confusing to me how the Judge can pass as a handgun but this magically qualifies as SBS. (Maybe because it does not shoot a handgun caliber? could they not just produce a “28 gauge” pistol cartridge in small quantities?)
This gun is obviously an example of civil disobedience and the BATF has decided that they have had enough. I guess that we can expect a new set of esoteric rules over the next year justifying how this is banned.
This may also spell the death of PGO shotgun pistols that the BATF recently allowed. I hope that everyone is prepared to dismantle any guns that they may have built…
Daym thats like something out of Metro 2033.
The ATF is so ** up. You asked a gun related law question to three different ATF agents and you get three completely different answers from the agents.
If I were Taurus I’ll go get the ruling from the top ATF lawyer with a signed written letter response. No need to deal with field agents.