I have been informed that the French DGA (Direction Générale de l'Armement, Armament Procurement Agency) will be adopting the FN MAG to replace the AANF1 machine guns in service.The purchase of 10-11,000 is expected to be confirmed soon.
After losing a couple of contracts, this will be very good news for FNH.
[ Many thanks to Famas for the tip. ]
Given that the FN MAG is considered to be one of the best general purpose machine guns available, I’ve wondered why nobody has scaled up the design to handle the 50 BMG cartridge. I would think it’d be a good replacement for the M2 Browning since the FN MAG is already in use by many militaries so maintenance and operation would be simplified.
0 
0Lance,
so, the SCAR was expensive enough to buy, but not to develop? That is the lamest excuse I have ever seen! The weapon was APPROVED for the Final Milestone C, just a month or so before being cancelled! That reads ‘budget cuts’ all over!
The excuse ‘the SCAR didn’t offer enough improvements over the M4 to be bought’ is ludicrous… They, above all else, know the problem is the cartridge, not the weapon…With the all-too-well known limitations of the 5.56 cartridge, that excuse becomes even lamer!
They had a 6.8 SCAR which many think is a much better cartridge than the 5.56 and STILL they went with the 5.56! So, the weapon is definitely not the problem here!
The SCAR, being piston-designed, not a piston conversion like the HK416 (I mean, what piston weapon still has a BUFFER spring on the Buffer tube?!? That’s your first clue…) or other AR-15 conversions, is far more reliable and requires far less maintenance, so the only explanation that makes any sense is the budget one! The other is just a lame excuse that is just embarassing, given what we know of the SCAR development history…
Cheers!
0 0@Clairon @Yeti98
no AR15 plateform (HK416 or others) simply because they could not launch rifle grenade. The HK 416/417 is more like in 70′s with the Manurhin-SIG SG540 in lebanon peace keeping operation. Buy rifle for the SF or an expeditionary corps is not same way than buy rifle for all militaries branch of one country.
0 0@ Yeti98
The main reason SOCOM went bcak the the M-4 is that the SCAR dint have any real advantage over the M-4 and hece a waste of money to buy. While the Mk-17 proved worthy of buying.
0 0French army and air force are already replacing Famas by HK416 in selected units (special forces, air commandos…). Meanwhile HK417 is discreetly replacing obsolescent FR-F2 bolt action rifles for units deployed in combat (Afghanistan). My guess is French forces at the end of the next decade will have HK416/HK417 and FN Minimi / Minimi 7,62 (a handful) and now MAG for vehicle mounting.
Slightly off topic, as of USSOCOM not buying 5,56mm SCAR (Mk16), it’s essentially for budget reasons since M4 carbines come “free” to SOCOM (furnished by the parent services : Army, Marines, AF, Navy) while Mk16 have to be paid for on SOCOM’s budget.
0 0Yeti, the FR-F2 and FR-G2 are nowhere near phased out. The HK417 are just replacing the older 308 rifles already in service like the G3A3/A4s, or giving a 308 capacity (with short-barreled models) to units that did not have one before.
Kind of like the Mk17 brought 308 rifles to the special forces soldiers.
0 0@ Rijoenpial : The feedback from the SF community does not go your way. people were annoyed at being forced to get muscle memory for a new rifle to basically get the same results. So they liked the Mk17 SCAR for packing more punch than the M4 and not being plagued with stoppages like the SR25Ks.
But the Mk16 were another story, and are not considered, by the people using them in the field, as much as an improvement over the DI M4 rifles.
So yes, the Mk16 issue is probably a budgetary one, but the guys in the field dont mind staying with the M4 for the time being.
0 0Rijoenpal
Im not going to yell at you over anc over. Im saying what several Military.com and SOCOM statements about why they will be useing the M-4 for some years to come. Alot to do with money some to do with poor ergonomics.
0 0You can argue over this many time we have differnt opions so lets agree to disagree your not hgoing to change my mind or Aurelian
0 0People don’t change ops on say-so, Lance… You’re missing the whole point here… I am just expressing my views the best I can, the most founded I can… I like the SCAR, yes, but the whole point of my exposé is to point out the feebleness of SOCOM’s so-called ‘reasons’ for not buying the SCAR Mk16…
Except for the budget ones, the rest of the ‘excuses’ are obviously flawed and paper-thin…
I know the most credible reason is that due to limited budget resources, both acknowledged by USSOCOM and FNH’s through press releases and also by the project’s rep Gay Bailey, and given the operational needs for the SpecOps on the field today, namely the Afghanistan conflict, they decided to shift the funds to the Mk17s, EGLMs and the Mk20 SSR… My question is ‘why didn’t they go with that instead of blowing off smoke to the public?’
Cheers!
0 0yes, guys, facts are facts…
I am talking about the MOTIVATION, the REAL motives behind the facts…
And I am talking about EVOLUTION as well, something that hopefully will happen with the upcoming competition for a new AR to happen in 2011-2012… And I stress ‘HOPEFULLY’ because given past history with the XM8 and the ORIGINAL SCAR program (the Mk17, the EGLM and the Mk20 SSR were chosen, even though they were not in the original SCAR program), we are forced to doubt that this new project will actually be anything more than another smokescreen…
And Lance,
I could say the same thing about you regarding the M4…So, we are both guilty of prefering a design, a system, over the rest… I actually have a lot of designs I like very much, from modern bullpup designs such as the F2000, the P90, to old designs such as the MP5K, the AK, the WWII rifles such as the Kar98, the Enfield Rifle, the Stg44 (the father of the AK), the Fg42 Paratrooper, etc…
The M4 is a great design, don’t get me wrong, but it is already 20 years old, 50 if you take into consideration it is actually a shortened M16 version…
I believe an Army that is engaged in various conflicts around the world on a regular basis, needs to be constantly upgrading it’s tech… I don’t say changing rifles every 5 years, but 20 years with a flawed design for desert and mountain warfare, and not entirely effective in urban warfare due to the caliber, which prevents it from getting a guy behind a door or wall, or even getting a guy to halt as it was clearly seen in Somalia, I think a new weapon, a better caliber is long overdue…!
But you can’t beat the oldies, huh, Aurelien? I am sure your country will be served well by the FN-MAG…
Again, I am not disputing the facts here, just the real motivation behind such decisions, with some reasons presented not making any sense given what we know about the project and it’s development stages…
That is all I am saying…!
Cheers!
0 0@ Rijoenpal
We know you love th SCAR to death. SOCOM didnt use Mk-16s they use M-4s!
0 0Aurelien,
WHAT muscle memory? I REPEAT: the SCAR was done ENTIRELY to USSOCOM specs! Envisioned, tested and chosen!
The SCAR Mk17 was chosen, Aurelien…with the same MO and muscle memory the Mk16 ‘requires’… So, that actually renders that ‘reason’ feeblish…
There is actually no muscle memory required for a gun that has the same bolt release, bolt hold open, and only the charging handle in a different position, but I don’t think that is a problem that cannot be dealt with, say, MINOR training! The weapon was devised to be disassembled quickly and easily! They used the M1 which has the charging handle AK-like, and since the SCAR can have it too, makes that a non-issue actually!
And there are a lot of actual operational advantages the SCAR has the M4 doesn’t…
The SCAR is a much better design than the M4, being piston-operated instead of the direct gas impingement, enabling it to be folded.. It was tested to exhaustion, with less failures, less maintenance required, less foul-ups, etc… remember, 800 failures by the M4 against the 230 of the SCAR in ‘extreme environment tests’…
So, again, this has nothing to do with the weapon itself, but with the operators tastes themselves! The SCAR 5.56′s only problem is the caliber…
And let me remind you the weapon was designed with input by the operators themselves and tested by them, so I think they are being very hypocritical if they are alleging that!
Maybe it’s my European way of seeing this, but you don’t waste millions of taxpayers dollars when you’re ill-bent on failing it anyway! These ‘excuses’ just prove it beyond any doubt! From the reciprocating charging handle, easily switchable to the AK side, to the muscle memory, which is virtually none aside from the reciprocating handle and folding stock, ALL REQUIRED by the SOF command anyway; to the lame ‘the SCAR Mk16 doesn’t provide any additional performance over the M4′ when we all know that the SCAR program, like the M8 before it, was intentionally devised to replace the weapons in the SOCOM arsenal, from the 5.56, 7.62, sniper config, LMG, etc… with a SINGLE system, with the same muscle memory between all systems…
So, Aurelien, Lance, as you can easily see, the SCAR 5.56 was INTENTIONALLY devised to replace the M4, much as the Mk17 was designed to replace the M1, eventually the HAMR would replace the SAW, and so on and so forth…
I can understand the USSOCOM wanting to stick to US-made designs, but the Army still has the M29 (Italian Beretta) and uses the Belgian FN’s M240 and M249 to great extent… lots of Americans love the Austrian Glock, the Swiss Sig Sauer, the German HK Mp5 and HK416, all European designs from European brands, so this sudden resistance (I don’t want to call it ‘sabotage’) to FN is a blur to me…
I gather that if the USSOCOM only wanted US-made designs to compete for the SCAR program, they would have made it so! Trouble is, except for the ACR (inexistent at the time) and XCR, the rest is mostly ‘regurgitated’ AR-15 replicas… No AR-18 based models whatsoever, all DI and no piston…
Hence my bafflement at the ‘excuses’ presented!
And I went way off subject again… This is about the French acquiring FN-MAGs…
Cheers!
0 0No need to get on your high horse, i’m just repeating what the guys from the USASOC said. I sure have not used the SCAR or the M4 in a combat situation so i believe the people that have. If you think they are meatheads and dont understand what they talk about, thats a pointto take to them.
I did not say the SCAR was not designed with the input from the SOF community, i’m just saying some of the boots on the ground think going from M4 to SCAR could be a challenge because of the few differences, because they can block a guy that has been using the M4 for the past 15 years. I’m sure thats not a big deal if you’re shooting at the range, but losing 2 sec on figuring how to clear a double-feed because you changed platforms can get you killed.
Just saying. And reporting feedbacks that are not from me, but from the guys currently shooting those.
BTW, i’m French, so i have the “european way of seeing this”. That does not change facts. Like the fact that if the Mk16 project was scrapped, the Mk17 and Mk20 are already in use so they did not just throw away the money.
0 0Lance,
Famas G2 is not built anymore for now more than 15 years, and it was produced in relative small qties (max 25.000) for the french Navy. French army forecast to replace the Famas as from 2015 and it will probably be a kind of “on the shelves” contract. Candidates will be HK (with the 416 or a modernized G36), FN and the SCAR, Beretta and his ARX160 and perhaps also a Sig rifle.
0 0Typo, it’s losing not loosing.
0 0“Listen to me, I am sounding like a FNH rep here! “
…Um, yeah you are sounding like one! #misedirection
0 0@Aurelien
I’ve seen a few pics showing SCARs in the hands of the DGSE “Seals” (nageurs de combats) and I guess they have a few of them.
(Nice job on your article in RAIDS, btw.)
Back to the subject, ANF1 are crappy. French commandos told me they had to change barrels constantly due to overheating. I laid a hand on one of those machineguns once and did not enjoy it.
0 0Rijoenpial, i don’t know where you have seen French SF with SCARs. The COS (Spec Ops Command) has a shitload of HK416 and 417, and i have not seen the sight of a SCAR there, except the 2 models FN sent for testing a few years ago.
The ANF1 is a little known weapon. It was superseded in the early 90s by the FN Minimi when it was the the only LMG that was hype and happening, and the ANF1 went right to be a fortification and vehicle MG only. But then Afghanistan happened, and the French army needed to pack some more punch and the ANF1 was called again.
But the last ANF1 are pretty much 30 years old, and that’s quite a lot. I’m not sure the adoption of the FN MAG is “[bringing the French army] into line” with anybody, i guess the FN MAG is the only 7.62 MG used widely by NATO and ISAF forces that has ben battle proven in the worst environments possible…
And the French army already has contracts for MGs with FNH, with the Gendarmerie using the 7.62 Minimi in Afghanistan right now.
0 0Rijoenpial, the SCAR has been “tested” by French Special Ops but certainly not adopted. The HK416 has been adopted 2 years ago by the French “Socom”.
The F2000 isn’t anymore a focus product @ FNH, it’s now the SCAR. By the way, many feedbacks about the F2000 are absolutely not positive, fe the Belgian Spec ops replaced the F2000 by the SCAR after less than 5 yr duty service.
0 0Hi guys!
Great news for FNH…! FNH has the best vehicle weapons I have ever seen! The remotely-controlled tower MG showed in AUSA 2010 just demonstrates how avant-garde FNH is in all fields, not just in the portable firearms department!
Hopefully, this will be the beginning of greater times for them, and who knows, with the French SpecOps already using the SCAR, maybe the aging FA-MAS will be next! The French sure deserve a better rifle than that! Hell, if they want to continue with bullpup design, the F2000 would be perfect for them!
Listen to me, I am sounding like a FNH rep here! Nevertheless, praise should be where praise is due!
Having seen the latest developments on the 2010 Military catalog and looking at the AUSA vids, well, especially the unmanned tower MG (with this on, Sgt. Pilla would not have died in Somalia!), I think FNH is the best, the most comprehensive weapons manufacturer I have ever seen!
They build everything from helicopter machineguns to non-lethal weapons…! Let’s see Colt or HK top that!
Again, great news for those of us who love innovation and excellence and wish the best to remain the best for years to come!
We all know that given the right circumstances (urban warfare scenarios instead of hill or mountain warfare), the USSOCOM would have bought the Mk16 they envisioned, tested and chose, and from that moment on, given the history behind the M4, the SCAR Mk16 would probably be the replacement for the 20-year old M4 AR… The SCAR family of weapons, from the Mk16 to the SCAR HAMR, to the Mk20, is the best family of weapons out there today… Instead of having many weapons from a dozen manufacturers,increasing the costs immensely, they would have a great family of weapons, including the new and improved Mk46 and Mk48 MGs…
Given all this, I hope the grey times are over for FNH and this contract is definitely a (BIG) step in the right direction!
I like the M4 fine, the HK G36 is elegant and robust, but FNH is the only one clearly aiming at advancing towards the future at quick pace! The electronics introduced in weapons such as the HAMR and the tower MGs, clearly show they are already with their eyes on the future, not just at recycling the present, like COLT and HK do!
0 0I guess this brings them into line with their new found buddies, the Brits. Makes sense I suppose.
Rusty
0 0LOL @ Rijoenpial managing not to bash Colt in his comment while talking up FNH.
“We all know that given the right circumstances (urban warfare scenarios instead of hill or mountain warfare), the USSOCOM would have bought the Mk16″
“Given the right circumstances”? I thought they already had bought the Mk 16, but that USSOCOM’s official word was “not better ENOUGH to justify the monetary difference” (read: when under an administration presumably looking for defense cuts that their base would very much be amenable to)… sounds similar to the Army’s usual reaction to non-M4-type carbines, but I thought that USSOCOM was Army-dominated anyway with the exception of the SEALs/SWCC.
Agreed that USSOCOM’s public reasoning implicitly admitted that the circumstances didn’t favor ANY 5.56 x 45 mm carbine, but the Mk 16 couldn’t “adapt and overcome” said circumstances.
0 0Aurelien,
I just said the French used it, and if they are like the Spec Ops here, they probably use pretty much anything they can get their hands on and will get the job done (I have seen them use the HK416, the P90, the M4, etc…)
Regarding the FN MAG, its service record speaks for itself and the M240 is a US derivative of it… For a weapon mounted on a vehicle, you can either have this weapon or a 50 cal… I think this one is much more manoeuvrable and aimable than the .50 cal…
I think the French procuring the FN MAG demonstrates their confidence in their performance… And they’re not always looking for the next hot thing, which can be proven by their 30-year old FA-MAS service rifle…Even though they have now the G2 version since 1995…
So, long story short, the French have chosen a very solid weapon for mounting on their vehicles…
Alan,
I am not an FNH guy… I mean, I recognise their solid expertise, their history and competence and, like many out in the US endorse the M4 or any AR-15 models from American brands, I on my part endorse European ones, one in particular… No biggie!
Cheers!
0 0Its good for FNH but here in the states Colt and H&K have been making gains in the US military. Colt now makes M-240s and All the upgraded M-4s are made by Colt and the H&K416 has been adopted by the USMC and US Army Special Forces.
Better for FNH to stay in Europe!
0 0I don’t see the FAMAS G2 going away there still making them.
0 0Chortles,
shucks, I forgot all about bashing COLT…! Thanks for the heads-up! LOL
Now, more seriously, the USSOCOM apparently used the funds that were destined to buy SCAR Mk16s into buying more Mk17s, EGLMs (FN replacement for the M79) and the Mk20 SSR (Sniper Support Rifle)…
So, it actuall seems like they stepped back in their original purchase due to the feedback from the field in Afghanistan that the 5.56 was ineffective against an enemy that was intentionally positioning itself outside the 5.56 effective range area, rendering the US weapons useless in terms of stopping power…
The budget reasons may have been part of the problem as, in an ideal situation, the USSOCOM would be better off having both systems…
Regarding the M4, the SCAR is better for getting in and out of vehicles, more maintenance saving time, more ergonomic, better recoil than the M4…
AND let’s not forget all the testing and subsequent approval, which makes no sense if the USSOCOM had indeed found out the weapon was no better than the M4, something they would have found out earlier in the battery of tests the weapon system was submitted to, not AFTER having approved it…! Hence why I actually think this was a tactical move, adapting the acquisitions to the conditions in the field of operations…
With the M4 having ineffective stopping power over long distances, heavier maintenance downtime, on a daily basis due to the sand turning the lube oil into glue, and THAT alone is not cause for concern and doesn’t make the piston SCAR a super-weapon by comparison? Yeah, right…!
Anyway, back into the subject… Sorry, guys, that was my bad to begin with…!
Cheers!
0 0The French Militaries armourers know well this type of weapon with the FN minimi & FM MAC24/29 (phase out in 2006 of Gendarmerie stock) & Browning (FN) BAR. In plus you could put the FN MAG in place of the ANF1 without modification of the vehicle weapon support.
But the real compitor is not the MG3, that’s the Vector SS77 with same type of weigh of the ANF1 (8Kg to 9Kg). The weigh of ANF1 is around 9.5Kg-10Kg, the MAG 11kG-13KG and 11.5Kg to 25Kg.
For replacement of the FAMAS is dream of the FN hersatl, Berretta & HK but France have order a new contract for FAMAS FELIN.
0 0“i guess the FN MAG is the only 7.62 MG used widely by NATO and ISAF forces that has ben battle proven in the worst environments possible…”
The trusty ol’ MG3 is used by Germany, Norway, Denmark, Italy (MG42/59 version), Turkey, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Estonia and Canada (in its Leopard tanks).
The FN MAG is used by UK, Canada, Netherlands, US, Belgium, and now France.
0 0MGN, the SCARs used by the DGSE were only on test, they went back to FNH after that.
Paralus, yes the good’old MG3. But the FN MAG has been massively used in crappy environments like South America, central Africa and South-East Asia. Getting MG3s now with the upcoming MG121 would not be a good move. But then again, the French Army goes around making bad decisions all the time.
0 0Hi,
The adoption of the FN MAG is long time overdue. It’s been announced for a good 3 years, i’m glad to see they will scrap the ANF1.
The FN MAG is already used by the French SF on the Caracal RESCO Helos.
Technically the FN MAG and the ANF1 have been designed in the same era (the ANF1 is a NATO conversion of the AA-52 chambered in the French 7,5x54mm round), but the FN MAG is just better on all aspects.
0 0
People don’t change ops on say-so, Lance… You’re missing the whole point here… I am just expressing my views the best I can, the most founded I can… I like the SCAR, yes, but the whole point of my exposé is to point out the feebleness of SOCOM’s so-called ‘reasons’ for not buying the SCAR Mk16…
Except for the budget ones, the rest of the ‘excuses’ are obviously flawed and paper-thin…
I know the most credible reason is that due to limited budget resources, both acknowledged by USSOCOM and FNH’s through press releases and also by the project’s rep Gay Bailey, and given the operational needs for the SpecOps on the field today, namely the Afghanistan conflict, they decided to shift the funds to the Mk17s, EGLMs and the Mk20 SSR… My question is ‘why didn’t they go with that instead of blowing off smoke to the public?’
Cheers!
You can argue over this many time we have differnt opions so lets agree to disagree your not hgoing to change my mind or Aurelian
yes, guys, facts are facts…
I am talking about the MOTIVATION, the REAL motives behind the facts…
And I am talking about EVOLUTION as well, something that hopefully will happen with the upcoming competition for a new AR to happen in 2011-2012… And I stress ‘HOPEFULLY’ because given past history with the XM8 and the ORIGINAL SCAR program (the Mk17, the EGLM and the Mk20 SSR were chosen, even though they were not in the original SCAR program), we are forced to doubt that this new project will actually be anything more than another smokescreen…
And Lance,
I could say the same thing about you regarding the M4…So, we are both guilty of prefering a design, a system, over the rest… I actually have a lot of designs I like very much, from modern bullpup designs such as the F2000, the P90, to old designs such as the MP5K, the AK, the WWII rifles such as the Kar98, the Enfield Rifle, the Stg44 (the father of the AK), the Fg42 Paratrooper, etc…
The M4 is a great design, don’t get me wrong, but it is already 20 years old, 50 if you take into consideration it is actually a shortened M16 version…
I believe an Army that is engaged in various conflicts around the world on a regular basis, needs to be constantly upgrading it’s tech… I don’t say changing rifles every 5 years, but 20 years with a flawed design for desert and mountain warfare, and not entirely effective in urban warfare due to the caliber, which prevents it from getting a guy behind a door or wall, or even getting a guy to halt as it was clearly seen in Somalia, I think a new weapon, a better caliber is long overdue…!
But you can’t beat the oldies, huh, Aurelien? I am sure your country will be served well by the FN-MAG…
Again, I am not disputing the facts here, just the real motivation behind such decisions, with some reasons presented not making any sense given what we know about the project and it’s development stages…
That is all I am saying…!
Cheers!
@ Rijoenpal
We know you love th SCAR to death. SOCOM didnt use Mk-16s they use M-4s!
No need to get on your high horse, i’m just repeating what the guys from the USASOC said. I sure have not used the SCAR or the M4 in a combat situation so i believe the people that have. If you think they are meatheads and dont understand what they talk about, thats a pointto take to them.
I did not say the SCAR was not designed with the input from the SOF community, i’m just saying some of the boots on the ground think going from M4 to SCAR could be a challenge because of the few differences, because they can block a guy that has been using the M4 for the past 15 years. I’m sure thats not a big deal if you’re shooting at the range, but losing 2 sec on figuring how to clear a double-feed because you changed platforms can get you killed.
Just saying. And reporting feedbacks that are not from me, but from the guys currently shooting those.
BTW, i’m French, so i have the “european way of seeing this”. That does not change facts. Like the fact that if the Mk16 project was scrapped, the Mk17 and Mk20 are already in use so they did not just throw away the money.
Aurelien,
WHAT muscle memory? I REPEAT: the SCAR was done ENTIRELY to USSOCOM specs! Envisioned, tested and chosen!
The SCAR Mk17 was chosen, Aurelien…with the same MO and muscle memory the Mk16 ‘requires’… So, that actually renders that ‘reason’ feeblish…
There is actually no muscle memory required for a gun that has the same bolt release, bolt hold open, and only the charging handle in a different position, but I don’t think that is a problem that cannot be dealt with, say, MINOR training! The weapon was devised to be disassembled quickly and easily! They used the M1 which has the charging handle AK-like, and since the SCAR can have it too, makes that a non-issue actually!
And there are a lot of actual operational advantages the SCAR has the M4 doesn’t…
The SCAR is a much better design than the M4, being piston-operated instead of the direct gas impingement, enabling it to be folded.. It was tested to exhaustion, with less failures, less maintenance required, less foul-ups, etc… remember, 800 failures by the M4 against the 230 of the SCAR in ‘extreme environment tests’…
So, again, this has nothing to do with the weapon itself, but with the operators tastes themselves! The SCAR 5.56′s only problem is the caliber…
And let me remind you the weapon was designed with input by the operators themselves and tested by them, so I think they are being very hypocritical if they are alleging that!
Maybe it’s my European way of seeing this, but you don’t waste millions of taxpayers dollars when you’re ill-bent on failing it anyway! These ‘excuses’ just prove it beyond any doubt! From the reciprocating charging handle, easily switchable to the AK side, to the muscle memory, which is virtually none aside from the reciprocating handle and folding stock, ALL REQUIRED by the SOF command anyway; to the lame ‘the SCAR Mk16 doesn’t provide any additional performance over the M4′ when we all know that the SCAR program, like the M8 before it, was intentionally devised to replace the weapons in the SOCOM arsenal, from the 5.56, 7.62, sniper config, LMG, etc… with a SINGLE system, with the same muscle memory between all systems…
So, Aurelien, Lance, as you can easily see, the SCAR 5.56 was INTENTIONALLY devised to replace the M4, much as the Mk17 was designed to replace the M1, eventually the HAMR would replace the SAW, and so on and so forth…
I can understand the USSOCOM wanting to stick to US-made designs, but the Army still has the M29 (Italian Beretta) and uses the Belgian FN’s M240 and M249 to great extent… lots of Americans love the Austrian Glock, the Swiss Sig Sauer, the German HK Mp5 and HK416, all European designs from European brands, so this sudden resistance (I don’t want to call it ‘sabotage’) to FN is a blur to me…
I gather that if the USSOCOM only wanted US-made designs to compete for the SCAR program, they would have made it so! Trouble is, except for the ACR (inexistent at the time) and XCR, the rest is mostly ‘regurgitated’ AR-15 replicas… No AR-18 based models whatsoever, all DI and no piston…
Hence my bafflement at the ‘excuses’ presented!
And I went way off subject again… This is about the French acquiring FN-MAGs…
Cheers!
Rijoenpal
Im not going to yell at you over anc over. Im saying what several Military.com and SOCOM statements about why they will be useing the M-4 for some years to come. Alot to do with money some to do with poor ergonomics.
@ Rijoenpial : The feedback from the SF community does not go your way. people were annoyed at being forced to get muscle memory for a new rifle to basically get the same results. So they liked the Mk17 SCAR for packing more punch than the M4 and not being plagued with stoppages like the SR25Ks.
But the Mk16 were another story, and are not considered, by the people using them in the field, as much as an improvement over the DI M4 rifles.
So yes, the Mk16 issue is probably a budgetary one, but the guys in the field dont mind staying with the M4 for the time being.
Lance,
so, the SCAR was expensive enough to buy, but not to develop? That is the lamest excuse I have ever seen! The weapon was APPROVED for the Final Milestone C, just a month or so before being cancelled! That reads ‘budget cuts’ all over!
The excuse ‘the SCAR didn’t offer enough improvements over the M4 to be bought’ is ludicrous… They, above all else, know the problem is the cartridge, not the weapon…With the all-too-well known limitations of the 5.56 cartridge, that excuse becomes even lamer!
They had a 6.8 SCAR which many think is a much better cartridge than the 5.56 and STILL they went with the 5.56! So, the weapon is definitely not the problem here!
The SCAR, being piston-designed, not a piston conversion like the HK416 (I mean, what piston weapon still has a BUFFER spring on the Buffer tube?!? That’s your first clue…) or other AR-15 conversions, is far more reliable and requires far less maintenance, so the only explanation that makes any sense is the budget one! The other is just a lame excuse that is just embarassing, given what we know of the SCAR development history…
Cheers!
Given that the FN MAG is considered to be one of the best general purpose machine guns available, I’ve wondered why nobody has scaled up the design to handle the 50 BMG cartridge. I would think it’d be a good replacement for the M2 Browning since the FN MAG is already in use by many militaries so maintenance and operation would be simplified.
@Clairon @Yeti98
no AR15 plateform (HK416 or others) simply because they could not launch rifle grenade. The HK 416/417 is more like in 70′s with the Manurhin-SIG SG540 in lebanon peace keeping operation. Buy rifle for the SF or an expeditionary corps is not same way than buy rifle for all militaries branch of one country.
@ Yeti98
The main reason SOCOM went bcak the the M-4 is that the SCAR dint have any real advantage over the M-4 and hece a waste of money to buy. While the Mk-17 proved worthy of buying.
Yeti, the FR-F2 and FR-G2 are nowhere near phased out. The HK417 are just replacing the older 308 rifles already in service like the G3A3/A4s, or giving a 308 capacity (with short-barreled models) to units that did not have one before.
Kind of like the Mk17 brought 308 rifles to the special forces soldiers.
French army and air force are already replacing Famas by HK416 in selected units (special forces, air commandos…). Meanwhile HK417 is discreetly replacing obsolescent FR-F2 bolt action rifles for units deployed in combat (Afghanistan). My guess is French forces at the end of the next decade will have HK416/HK417 and FN Minimi / Minimi 7,62 (a handful) and now MAG for vehicle mounting.
Slightly off topic, as of USSOCOM not buying 5,56mm SCAR (Mk16), it’s essentially for budget reasons since M4 carbines come “free” to SOCOM (furnished by the parent services : Army, Marines, AF, Navy) while Mk16 have to be paid for on SOCOM’s budget.
Lance,
Famas G2 is not built anymore for now more than 15 years, and it was produced in relative small qties (max 25.000) for the french Navy. French army forecast to replace the Famas as from 2015 and it will probably be a kind of “on the shelves” contract. Candidates will be HK (with the 416 or a modernized G36), FN and the SCAR, Beretta and his ARX160 and perhaps also a Sig rifle.
Typo, it’s losing not loosing.
I don’t see the FAMAS G2 going away there still making them.
Its good for FNH but here in the states Colt and H&K have been making gains in the US military. Colt now makes M-240s and All the upgraded M-4s are made by Colt and the H&K416 has been adopted by the USMC and US Army Special Forces.
Better for FNH to stay in Europe!
Chortles,
shucks, I forgot all about bashing COLT…! Thanks for the heads-up! LOL
Now, more seriously, the USSOCOM apparently used the funds that were destined to buy SCAR Mk16s into buying more Mk17s, EGLMs (FN replacement for the M79) and the Mk20 SSR (Sniper Support Rifle)…
So, it actuall seems like they stepped back in their original purchase due to the feedback from the field in Afghanistan that the 5.56 was ineffective against an enemy that was intentionally positioning itself outside the 5.56 effective range area, rendering the US weapons useless in terms of stopping power…
The budget reasons may have been part of the problem as, in an ideal situation, the USSOCOM would be better off having both systems…
Regarding the M4, the SCAR is better for getting in and out of vehicles, more maintenance saving time, more ergonomic, better recoil than the M4…
AND let’s not forget all the testing and subsequent approval, which makes no sense if the USSOCOM had indeed found out the weapon was no better than the M4, something they would have found out earlier in the battery of tests the weapon system was submitted to, not AFTER having approved it…! Hence why I actually think this was a tactical move, adapting the acquisitions to the conditions in the field of operations…
With the M4 having ineffective stopping power over long distances, heavier maintenance downtime, on a daily basis due to the sand turning the lube oil into glue, and THAT alone is not cause for concern and doesn’t make the piston SCAR a super-weapon by comparison? Yeah, right…!
Anyway, back into the subject… Sorry, guys, that was my bad to begin with…!
Cheers!
The French Militaries armourers know well this type of weapon with the FN minimi & FM MAC24/29 (phase out in 2006 of Gendarmerie stock) & Browning (FN) BAR. In plus you could put the FN MAG in place of the ANF1 without modification of the vehicle weapon support.
But the real compitor is not the MG3, that’s the Vector SS77 with same type of weigh of the ANF1 (8Kg to 9Kg). The weigh of ANF1 is around 9.5Kg-10Kg, the MAG 11kG-13KG and 11.5Kg to 25Kg.
For replacement of the FAMAS is dream of the FN hersatl, Berretta & HK but France have order a new contract for FAMAS FELIN.
MGN, the SCARs used by the DGSE were only on test, they went back to FNH after that.
Paralus, yes the good’old MG3. But the FN MAG has been massively used in crappy environments like South America, central Africa and South-East Asia. Getting MG3s now with the upcoming MG121 would not be a good move. But then again, the French Army goes around making bad decisions all the time.
“i guess the FN MAG is the only 7.62 MG used widely by NATO and ISAF forces that has ben battle proven in the worst environments possible…”
The trusty ol’ MG3 is used by Germany, Norway, Denmark, Italy (MG42/59 version), Turkey, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Estonia and Canada (in its Leopard tanks).
The FN MAG is used by UK, Canada, Netherlands, US, Belgium, and now France.
Aurelien,
I just said the French used it, and if they are like the Spec Ops here, they probably use pretty much anything they can get their hands on and will get the job done (I have seen them use the HK416, the P90, the M4, etc…)
Regarding the FN MAG, its service record speaks for itself and the M240 is a US derivative of it… For a weapon mounted on a vehicle, you can either have this weapon or a 50 cal… I think this one is much more manoeuvrable and aimable than the .50 cal…
I think the French procuring the FN MAG demonstrates their confidence in their performance… And they’re not always looking for the next hot thing, which can be proven by their 30-year old FA-MAS service rifle…Even though they have now the G2 version since 1995…
So, long story short, the French have chosen a very solid weapon for mounting on their vehicles…
Alan,
I am not an FNH guy… I mean, I recognise their solid expertise, their history and competence and, like many out in the US endorse the M4 or any AR-15 models from American brands, I on my part endorse European ones, one in particular… No biggie!
Cheers!
LOL @ Rijoenpial managing not to bash Colt in his comment while talking up FNH.
“We all know that given the right circumstances (urban warfare scenarios instead of hill or mountain warfare), the USSOCOM would have bought the Mk16″
“Given the right circumstances”? I thought they already had bought the Mk 16, but that USSOCOM’s official word was “not better ENOUGH to justify the monetary difference” (read: when under an administration presumably looking for defense cuts that their base would very much be amenable to)… sounds similar to the Army’s usual reaction to non-M4-type carbines, but I thought that USSOCOM was Army-dominated anyway with the exception of the SEALs/SWCC.
Agreed that USSOCOM’s public reasoning implicitly admitted that the circumstances didn’t favor ANY 5.56 x 45 mm carbine, but the Mk 16 couldn’t “adapt and overcome” said circumstances.
@Aurelien
I’ve seen a few pics showing SCARs in the hands of the DGSE “Seals” (nageurs de combats) and I guess they have a few of them.
(Nice job on your article in RAIDS, btw.)
Back to the subject, ANF1 are crappy. French commandos told me they had to change barrels constantly due to overheating. I laid a hand on one of those machineguns once and did not enjoy it.
“Listen to me, I am sounding like a FNH rep here! “
…Um, yeah you are sounding like one! #misedirection
Rijoenpial, i don’t know where you have seen French SF with SCARs. The COS (Spec Ops Command) has a shitload of HK416 and 417, and i have not seen the sight of a SCAR there, except the 2 models FN sent for testing a few years ago.
The ANF1 is a little known weapon. It was superseded in the early 90s by the FN Minimi when it was the the only LMG that was hype and happening, and the ANF1 went right to be a fortification and vehicle MG only. But then Afghanistan happened, and the French army needed to pack some more punch and the ANF1 was called again.
But the last ANF1 are pretty much 30 years old, and that’s quite a lot. I’m not sure the adoption of the FN MAG is “[bringing the French army] into line” with anybody, i guess the FN MAG is the only 7.62 MG used widely by NATO and ISAF forces that has ben battle proven in the worst environments possible…
And the French army already has contracts for MGs with FNH, with the Gendarmerie using the 7.62 Minimi in Afghanistan right now.
Rijoenpial, the SCAR has been “tested” by French Special Ops but certainly not adopted. The HK416 has been adopted 2 years ago by the French “Socom”.
The F2000 isn’t anymore a focus product @ FNH, it’s now the SCAR. By the way, many feedbacks about the F2000 are absolutely not positive, fe the Belgian Spec ops replaced the F2000 by the SCAR after less than 5 yr duty service.
I guess this brings them into line with their new found buddies, the Brits. Makes sense I suppose.
Rusty
Hi guys!
Great news for FNH…! FNH has the best vehicle weapons I have ever seen! The remotely-controlled tower MG showed in AUSA 2010 just demonstrates how avant-garde FNH is in all fields, not just in the portable firearms department!
Hopefully, this will be the beginning of greater times for them, and who knows, with the French SpecOps already using the SCAR, maybe the aging FA-MAS will be next! The French sure deserve a better rifle than that! Hell, if they want to continue with bullpup design, the F2000 would be perfect for them!
Listen to me, I am sounding like a FNH rep here! Nevertheless, praise should be where praise is due!
Having seen the latest developments on the 2010 Military catalog and looking at the AUSA vids, well, especially the unmanned tower MG (with this on, Sgt. Pilla would not have died in Somalia!), I think FNH is the best, the most comprehensive weapons manufacturer I have ever seen!
They build everything from helicopter machineguns to non-lethal weapons…! Let’s see Colt or HK top that!
Again, great news for those of us who love innovation and excellence and wish the best to remain the best for years to come!
We all know that given the right circumstances (urban warfare scenarios instead of hill or mountain warfare), the USSOCOM would have bought the Mk16 they envisioned, tested and chose, and from that moment on, given the history behind the M4, the SCAR Mk16 would probably be the replacement for the 20-year old M4 AR… The SCAR family of weapons, from the Mk16 to the SCAR HAMR, to the Mk20, is the best family of weapons out there today… Instead of having many weapons from a dozen manufacturers,increasing the costs immensely, they would have a great family of weapons, including the new and improved Mk46 and Mk48 MGs…
Given all this, I hope the grey times are over for FNH and this contract is definitely a (BIG) step in the right direction!
I like the M4 fine, the HK G36 is elegant and robust, but FNH is the only one clearly aiming at advancing towards the future at quick pace! The electronics introduced in weapons such as the HAMR and the tower MGs, clearly show they are already with their eyes on the future, not just at recycling the present, like COLT and HK do!
Hi,
The adoption of the FN MAG is long time overdue. It’s been announced for a good 3 years, i’m glad to see they will scrap the ANF1.
The FN MAG is already used by the French SF on the Caracal RESCO Helos.
Technically the FN MAG and the ANF1 have been designed in the same era (the ANF1 is a NATO conversion of the AA-52 chambered in the French 7,5x54mm round), but the FN MAG is just better on all aspects.