S&W M&P 15-22 Kaboom
Eric, a reader of the blog, emailed me photos of what appears to be an out of battery explosion which occurred when he was shooting his S&W M&P 15-22. Luckily Eric was not injured. Eric said ...
So I got my new S&W M&P 15-22 last week. I live in Canada (YES!! We can have those in Canada if you have Restricted weapons class on your PAL).
So I go to the shooting range last night. As I was sighting in the firearm at the 36 round I heard this kind of explosion and felt the hot gases on my hands and side of my face. I immediately looked at the breach and the round had exploded. Luckily I had my safety glasses and earmuffs. I did a quick check on myself...not a scratch!! but that hot gas felt like someone threw sand on my face and hans. I immediately took pictures with my cell phone then proceeded to extract to blown out round metal part and spring.
UPDATE: Fred at Guns & Coffee had a similar problem with his M&P 15022.
[ Many thanks to Eric for emailing me the photos and info. ]
Is Hans okay? It felt like someone threw sand on him.
But seriously that sucks, even more so that you probably have to jump through hoops getting a replacement in the great white north. Call S&W and good luck!
I had that exact thing happen to me with my T/C Classic 22 rifle. It also fired out of battery, and since I am a lefty it sent a piece of shrapnel sailing right past both eyes, landing some 10 feet away. It also deafened me for about 30 seconds. A very scary experience. Thankfully their new model R-55 (the classic replacement) prevents firing out of battery. A necessary addition to any 22 semi auto.
Sorry man people I meant “hands!”..
No the Gun Dealer (store where I bought it) said they would replace it.
I’m hanging onto the firearm for now.
I just mailed a letter to the President of Smith & Wesson, James Debney.
I’m strongly considering legal actions.
By the way this is where I bought the gun..
The Gun Dealer.. AND YES WE HAVE GUN SHOPS IN CANADA!!
Great Store.. the Owner and his Team give an 5 star service.
http://www.thegundealer.net/
I had a Ruger MK II blow out of battery once. This tore up the extractor and broke the tip off the firing pin. No damage to shooter. A few thousand rounds later I noticed that on every shot, I would feel little “needle pricks” on my shooting hand. Replaced the recoil spring assembly, and extractor and everything is groovy again. The gun is from the early 80′s and still shooting like a champ with periodic parts replacement.
What was the ammo?
I heard they reallly hate Remington golden bullet.
Good thing you had eye protection on, sounds like you got blasted with unburned powder and tiny fragments from the rupture. Did the bullet actually exit the muzzle?
I second the above response, call S&W, they should be interested in what happened as well as being able to fix it or replace it for you.
Either there is a design flaw or you got the 1 in a million bad riffle in the production run!
Downside of .22lr…
Looks like the reciever halves are fine, just needs new extractor parts and a good look inside to make sure things are ok. Shouldn’t need to send in more than the bolt and maybe the upper if shipping the serialed portion is too big a hassle.
glad to hear you are ok. will be interested to hear about A) the actual cause of the KB and B) the replacement process in Canada.
What ammo?
My money says Federal Auto Match.
A guy on a forum I frequent had the same problem. Gun fired out of battery. He sent it in, and they claimed to fixed something, but he is selling it with a warning about the previous problem
I had an OOB once with my M&P 15-22. It was with Federal Spitfire ammo. The case looked like the one in the picture. I did not have any firearm dammage (have fired several hundred rounds since then). I just figgured the gun did not like this ammo and quit using it. It was LOUD and got my attention!
I’ve had this happen with my Tactical Solutions AR22 upper. It’s the result of an out-of-battery detonation.
We had a Ruger Mk1 sorta KB…
It was pretty underwhelming – the owner put the parts back in and it was good to go…
The ammo was Federal Lightning 40gr.
I also had with me some Winchester, CCI, PMC (Moderator) but never had the chance to try those. The explosion happened on the 36th round.
Yes, the bullet exited the barrel.
I wrote a letter signed and sent it to S&W’s President James Debney just this morning. They should get it next week.
I’m also seeking legal advice to see what my options are and the appropriates actions to take from this point on.
I will keep you guys posted.
Thank you for comments your questions.
Eric
Eric,
“I’m also seeking legal advice to see what my options are…“
For what? I mean, they fix the gun, and we’re all at status quo ante, no?
Strongly considering legal acton? Seeking legal advice?
Did you notice any difference between your story and the related stories told by other shooters on this site of similar out of battery incidents? They sent their guns in and were happy that the manufacturer fixed them or otherwise had them repaired them with no mention of sueing anybody.
Eric, I’m glad you’re not hurt, but for some reason, the first thing in my mind would not be “How much can I sue for?” but instead “I’m glad S&W is a reputable company and I know they will make this as good as new or better”.
I guess Canada has decided to follow the U.S. down the rathole of excessive litigiousness.
I actually had to look up the Federal Lightning 510B, which uses a 40gr LRN clocked at 1280 fps, ammo since it appears Federal no longer produces it. From the looks of it, and from other various forum posts, it’s the equivilent to the Federal Champion 510 which is currently in production but I do notice it’s about 40 fps slower.
OOB, or out of battery, issues have been usually found with most early run 15-22′s. Most of the time they are caused either by one of four things:
a. The use of Remington ammo
b. Rapid firing and inducing a disconnect failure where the hammer will drop on a half-open bolt.
c. The feed ramp, which is integral to the chamber/battery, being damaged or broken during shipment
d. The extractor
Chances are the rifle that was received was one of the early production models that did not have either or both the “blue spring” and revised extractor which have been going out on all current production models. As far as the entire “legal action” thing goes I can think of several different things that could have been done and which may come up if such action is taken:
a. Why did the user decide to use ammo that was not on the approved list printed in the manual?
b. Did the user verify that no parts were damaged or broken before the rifle was used?
c. Did the user try to first contact Customer Service to advise them of the problem?
Now while I understand that the person is angry that their new toy broke on them tossing around threats of legal action is not the way to go no matter how you feel.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Happen to me a lot over the years with different ammo and different 22lr guns. The last 22lr Kaboom I had was with my Ceiner AR15 conversion kit four months ago. Just make sure the bullet clear the barrel before resuming your fun. And yes I shoot a large amount of .22lr ammo every year.
That makes sense. Maybe I shouldn’t seek or take legal action. You’re feedback is well appreciated.
What bothers me is if this was an earlier model that was prone to have an explosion then maybe a recall should be made.
On the tactical-life website there’s alot of shooters that experienced the same thing. Some with minor injuries.
If this is a design flaw or maybe a problem in the production they may have already fixed it.
One thing is for sure. I call S&W Tech support Thursday morning. They said it was not suppose to happened but he did acknowledge the fact that they found a fix for this problem. (The nice person at S&W didn’t want to go into details). So they know. They also have a know fix for it. But how come they didn’t issue a safety recall or a warning of some sort.
That’s what bothers me.
I discussed the the gentleman about writing a letter he said don’t send it by email. So hey gave me the address and told me to address it to the president. He did say that S&W do take this matter very seriously.
I would hate to hear about some dad who brought his kid or his wife at the range and someone got injured in the eye by metal debris.
So this is more or less why I wrote the letter.
Eric
I had a somewhat scary kaboom with my Ruger 10/22 last fall, using Federal Thunderbolt ammo. It appeared that the back of the case blew partially off, and ignited the round in the magazine under it.
The bullet left the barrel, and the magazine blew downward and out.
Other than some scorch marks there was no damage. The gun has fired thousands of varied rounds with no problems, so I sent the split cases to Federal. Their call was: The ammo was old and the brass had deteriorated (possible exposure to ammonia fumes?). They sent me a brick of Federal Champions for my trouble.
Glad your Ok.
GB
Legal action?
Here in the US at least, you can’t sue someone unless you can make some kind of claim to have been harmed in some way.
Emotional distress goes a long way, though.
Have you been having nightmares since this incident occurred? Flashbacks? Debilitating fear of .22′s?
“legal action” thats why are insurance premiums are so high,get over it and be happy your okay.firearms are a deadly game,stuff happends be happy you still have a face……..o yea leave those 22′s alone
Thanks everyone for the input on legal actions.
Anthony, I’d not suffering PTSD yet.. ; )
But I sure don’t trust this S&W M&P 15-22..
I wait t’ill I get news from S&W. Until then I’m keeping the gun and broken part. I hope that they acknowledge publicly that there’s a problem with that model.
Eric,
Ever since this issue was first discovered a lot of people have been asking the “Why no recall” question. After a lot of owners bounced it around I think it simply boiled down to numbers in that they were really not receiving enough reports of the issue compared to the rifles shipped. However, that said, it’s pretty obvious based upon the revisions that later models have received that there was sufficient cause for investigating the issue and making some changes which came down to the following:
a. Addition of a recommended ammo list in the manual, which was not present from what I understand in earlier printings, that excluded ALL Remington made ammo along with a few other manufacturers and loads.
b. The “blue spring” modification which involved using a different grade of spring. Interestingly enough some even newer models are dropping the blue color and are now back to silver again like the original but comparing against the original spring shows that the revised spring is still being used just the color changed.
c. The extractor was changed so that it now has an anti-rotation feature where the earlier one did not have one.
This is why many of us have been STRONGLY encouraging users to do the following whenever planning on obtaining a 15-22:
a. Grab the updated manual and ONLY use ammo off of the recommended list for at least the first few hundred rounds of breaking in. While this may be a PITA for some it ensures that there is one less thing to add to the mix should something go wrong and help S&W find the issue faster.
b. If any issues are encountered promptly detail out what happened, along with pictures, and contact S&W regarding the issue so we can avoid any further issues slipping thru the cracks.
c. If you have ANY questions please do some sleuthing and reach out to those communities where a lot of us are willing to help you troubleshoot any problems. A couple of good sources for this would be smith-wessonforum.com and rimfirecentral.com.
d. And finally, for Goddess sake, DO NOT think of this as a Ruger 10-22, or insert whatever .22LR rifle that “feeds anything and 100% reliable”, with a new exterior and then proceed to bag on how it does not measure up. If you wish to get a Ruger 10-22 or what have you get that instead instead of bagging on a rifle that quite a few of us are happy with warts and all. -_^
In either event I completely understand your frustration and I’m in no way trying to make light of your plight. If for some reason S&W does not do right by you then by all means move forward but I think you just need to just take a deep breath and try working with S&W and those of us in the firearms community first before going “weapons hot”. ^_^
Greybeard,
I never had a 22lr KB like yours. Good stuff.
I had a Glock 19 KB! that blew the magazine out but didn’t ignite the ammo in it.
Ladyfox,
Thank you for feedback and advice. It seems to me that you work at S&W, I’m I right?
I did check and I don’t have the blue spring and the .22 ammo list is not in the manual.
So I bought a new gun but it was not fixed or recall (first batch).
“d. And finally, for Goddess sake, DO NOT think of this as a Ruger 10-22, or insert whatever .22LR rifle that “feeds anything and 100% reliable”, with a new exterior and then proceed to bag on how it does not measure up. If you wish to get a Ruger 10-22 or what have you get that instead instead of bagging on a rifle that quite a few of us are happy with warts and all.”
Don’t want to be pain in the but here, but are you admitting that Ruger 10-22 is more reliable than a S&W M&P 15-22?
I bought the S&W in the first place it had an aggressive look and seemed more reliable and rugged that the Ruger. I especially like the magazine of the S&W and also the flat rail. It has all the similar functions of a real AR plus it’s cheap to shoot.
I did send my story n details and pictures to S&W. I admit the tech support at S&W was top-noch!! The gentleman I spoke with was very kind and polite.
So I’ll wait t’ill I get news from S&W.
Ladyfox said:
“d. And finally, for Goddess sake, DO NOT think of this as a Ruger 10-22, or insert whatever .22LR rifle that “feeds anything and 100% reliable”, with a new exterior and then proceed to bag on how it does not measure up. If you wish to get a Ruger 10-22 or what have you get that instead instead of bagging on a rifle that quite a few of us are happy with warts and all. -_^”
I kind of giggled at that. My 15-22 has been by far much much more reliable than my 10/22. Some days the little Ruger won’t go through a single mag without stove-piping.
Eric,
Goddess, I wish I did work at S&W (though living in MA would be worse than living here in CA) that would be like heaven. ^_^
Well, based upon your description you have one of the first generation models when the rifle went into production. Once you get a hold of someone in customer service over there someone will either provide you with a mailing label or they’ll detail out what you need to do. Not really sure which it will be since you live in Canada but all repairs I’m fairly sure go to the main plant in Springfield, MA if I remember right so it may take awhile to get it back.
Am I admitting that the Ruger 10-22 is more reliable than the 15-22? As much as it pains for me to admit I have to say yes I am. I should note here that the 10-22 has been in production since the 1960′s if memory serves so it’s long since had all the bugs worked out of it. Compare that to the 15-22 which has only been out for a few years and VERY different to any traditional design so it’s going to have some gremlins in the system. This by no means should give you the impression that you purchased a bad rifle just one that, unfortunately, has some quirks that for whatever reason S&W really has not been too forthcoming about which I’m still really at a loss as to why.
In either event I’m really glad to hear that it sounds like S&W is going to be taking care of you so hopefully you’ll not have to wait too long to get your rifle back. Once you do it should be better than new since I’ve yet to hear of anyone who have sent their rifle back being unhappy with it once fixed up.
Fred,
Oh, do not get me wrong I’m not really trying to make one sound better than the other. However, just going by numbers, the 10-22 is quite a bit more robust than the 15-22 is currently. Neither rifle really is perfect but I really do not think any firearm is and they’ve all had their quirks and problems in some form or another. *shrug*
Myself, I do not begrudge the money I spent on my 15-22 MOE and I know that even if I do have an issue that S&W will take care of business.
Ladyfox has summed it up nicely.
I have had the S&W 15-22 go OOB on more than one occasion. Once it blew out my extractor. S&W quickly repaired it to current production specifications.
I have also had multiple OOBs on other semi-auto .22s. Stuff happens when you are around firearms.
I have been told it is a real “experience” when an OOB occurs with an AR 15. May result in need for clean underwear.
If you have real concerns about OObs, maybe you should trade for a bolt action gun.
Had that exact same thing happen in my G22, but it wasn’t due to any mechanical failure. It had a tight chamber, fed half way in before stopping, and the bolt continued forward, crushing the round, and causing it to go off. A crushfire. Brass looked exactly like that, and there wasn’t a firing pin mark on it.
Just prior to my buying my M&P 15-22 Competition at Midwest Gun (Mishawaka, In. on sale for $379) last Wednesday, they took delivery on at least 39 of the that model. Mine is from that shipment. So, the spring in my bolt is blue and the extractor is the upgraded one as was mentioned by Ladyfox above. I’ve put 275 rounds thru it with only one Fail to Fire. Excellent accuracy.
The latest owners manual recommends not shooting certain brands of ammo and one of them is Remington Golden Bullets. RATS, I just bought 2 boxes (550 rounds each) of them on sale. I’ve only been shooting Federals thru it and thought there would be no difference with the Remingtons.
I had an OOB on a 10/22 about 20 years ago. We’d been shooting Yellowjackets, went through probably 200 rounds or so, then -boom-. Looked just like Eric’s casing above.
I was shooting off a picnic table, supported the rifle with my off-hand underneath the magazine. The discharge popped the magazine loose, it was laying in my hand, and I had the Ruger logo from the bottom of the magazine tattooed into my hand for a couple days with partially burnt powder and carbon.
Every now and then I still get a little piece of brass or powder or something out of that hand.