The KRISS KARD: New pistol from KRISS Systems

kriss_kard_02-tfb-tm

My good friend REMOV managed to get a couple of photos of Renaud Kerbrat’s latest invention: the KRISS KARD pistol. The KARD will be officially unveiled later this year. Luckily you read The Firearm Blog and get the skinny right now!

Prototype of the KRISS KARD

The patent application (#20070214699) for the pistol was published in February. It somehow managed to slip under my radar! As you have probably guess by looking at the photos, the pistol makes use of a delayed bolt blowback system.

KRISS KARD delayed bolt blowback system in operation

The KARD’s barrel is fixed, rather than the tilting barrel system used in most conventional pistols. To provide inertia, a weight is located at the front of the gun which is actuated by the bolt. The weight, which tilts downwards during recoil, provides the same functionality (interia) as a slide on a regular pistol. By the time the bolt and barrel separate, the pressure inside the barrel will be at safe levels. A recoil spring pulls the bolt back intro battery (stripping a round off the magazine on its return journey).

So what are the advantages of this system? The primary advantage is that the recoil mechanism transfers some of the recoil energy in a downward direction (and at the front of the gun), rather than backwards like a slide does in a regular pistol. This should help keep the gun on target. Another advantage is that the because there is no slide, optics can be easily mounted on the top of the gun. A fixed barrel could be more accurate than a tilting barrel and will make it easier to use suppressors and other muzzle attachments.

I would be very surprised if a machine pistol version of this gun is not made. The design seems to be crying out for full auto trigger!

You can read the full patent application after the jump …

[ Many thanks to REMOV for sending me info and photos. ]

UPDATE: The barrel is fixed. It does not recoil.
(more…)

Related

Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


More In: Pistols


Advertisement

  • Ilkka

    Also, silencing that thing should be pretty easy.

    • Regan

      This is just a screwed up glock by they way

  • AB

    Interesting design, and I do like the weight idea to reduce muzzle-flip.

    One thing I’m concerned with is the mobile lock extending that far backward can clip the top of a thumb when firing. Guess we’ll have to wait and see video of the device firing in order to fully understand the action set.

  • Jesse

    AB, it won’t clip off a thumb anymore than your standard slide will.

    Also I want it. I want it now. Tell me who I make the check payable to.

  • Freiheit

    @Ilkka – What makes silencing this any easier or different from a regular pistol?

    I’m not that well educated on suppressors, but I think I see what you’re taling about. Since the barrel doesn’t tilt and stays in a fixed position relative to the frame, the suppressor is easier to attach since it won’t have to screw on to a moving part.

  • Mu

    Deconstructed Mauser C96, and if you run out of bullets you can use it to bite your opponent. Neat.

  • Vak

    Honestly, to me it just looks like a TMP/glock hybrid with a big nasty dead weight on the front.

    Also, I wonder if that design isn’t detrimental to the implementation of some kind of rail (because rails makes you a better shooter, it’s a fact).

  • tom

    To me, a pistol with more controlled recoil and a solid scope base = larger caliber. Otherwise there will probably always be better/cheaper options out there.

    But it is always good to see new ideas

  • Carl

    Have they finally managed to circumvent Newton’s third law?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

    Also, from the description it sounds like recoil operation and not blowback.
    Is the bolt opened by pressure on the cartridge or inertia?

    To decrease muzzle flip I think you must move the barrel down. I don’t buy adding a lot of complicated mechanisms in order to fool the laws of nature.

  • subase

    They should call it the KRISS HARD, cause I got a hardon just looking at it. It look like Blade – the vampire hunters gun. It looks really big too.

    Also optics have advanced to the point where it’s not difficult at all to affix them onto slides.

    http://www.onesourcetactical.com/advancedcombatglockslidemodificationsoncustomersslide.aspx

  • Crystal

    Would it be rude of me to say it’s styling has taken way too many notes from the Bloc… I mean, Glock…?
    :)

    Glock jokes aside, cool idea!

  • http:hiddendefense.blogspot.com EV

    You know I had been wondering when a smaller handgun model was going to come out using the Kriss recoiling system or at least a variation of it. I would like to see it in action. It is definitely a bit more complicated than the simple Browning tilting barrel, but I can still appreciate innovation.

  • http://www.howtogetagun.ca/ HowToGetAGun

    If it works as well as the Vector then I suppose they should chamber it in .357 Sig or larger.

  • http://gunnuts.net Caleb

    Holy crap, someone finally went and made Judge Dread’s gun. Awesome. Can you say “re-inventing the wheel”?

  • Vitor

    Guess it will made of titanium/polymer. If steel were used, it would be quite heavy.

  • Matt Groom

    I like anyone who thinks outside the box, and this is WAY outside the box. If they can keep it 40 oz or less, and keep it a reasonable size, and keep it reasonably priced, I’ll buy one!

  • SpudGun

    The cocking handle and bolt remind me of a Ruger Mark 1. Now before I run out and pre-order Judge Dredd’s Lawgiver, I have a couple of questions -

    1. Weight – this thing looks like it weighs a ton and all of it is at the pointy end – how am I supposed to keep this on target with a bag of sugar hanging off the end of the barrel?

    2. How quickly and with how much force does that counter weight snap back into place? Again I’m worried that a moving weight below the muzzle will cause more flip then it seeks to cancel out.

  • rusgunnut1

    Doesn’t make sense to me. Recoil in another direction? Give me no recoil and i’m interested. It WILL be easier mounting heavier supressors on the end of it, because without (to my knowledge) anything that has to tilt, the weight won’t be detrimental to it’s reliability.

  • Crabula

    Wow sweet Glock!!!!!

    But seriously, that is actually pretty cool. The mechanism in that diagram is pretty frickin awesome. I wonder how well it actually works at reducing muzzle flip?

  • Ilkka

    @Freiheit

    That’s exactly what I meant. No tilting barrel so that eliminates the inertia of a tilting silencer. I’ve heard stories that sometimes silencers have fallen off because of the tilting motion.

    Also it might be possible to add a low profile silencer to this weapon so that it wouldn’t impair aiming in anyway even with regular sights.

  • John

    Robocop anyone? I think it might be a little too heavy and bulky for applications in law enforcement. but I’m happy that there is innovation to make things better.

  • http://flavors.me/ctsommerville Caleb Sommerville

    I want one now.
    It reminds me of the Judge Dredd gun. Also, this full-auto would be one helluva pistol.

  • Gir

    the tacticool groups will be so depressed by the lack of rails :(

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Gir, LOL

  • Travis

    I dont see how this will decrease muzzle flip. The mass in the front rotates down… but Newton says the inertia wants that piece to remain at rest, so really the reaction force is trying to rotate the barrel front up.

    Since the barrel pivot point is really at the shooters wrist, that reaction force wanting to pivot the barrel front up is cantilevered against the wrist, basically pushing the hand directly down.

    I guess we’ll see how the force vectors work out, but there is no free lunch.

  • B

    Mmmmmm. could you imagine that bad boy chambered in a .357Mag or .44mag?
    To tacti-cool it out even more they should add a bottom accessory rail.
    I want one of these for my weird guns collection, like the Chiappa Rhino.

  • jim

    Looks big, bulky, and stupid! I’m sure it will have a big price tag too. Btw-is that electrical tape around the grip? :)

  • Maigo

    Who is going to buy this?
    Should have gone straight to rifles. Maybe he’s trying to build something with zero felt recoil or point of aim shift?

  • DavidR

    It’s cool, and I really like the concept of transferring the weight of the slide to the muzzle, turning it into a muzzle weight that also has a functional role to play in the operation of the gun.

    I just wonder though–does the size/bulk of a design like this begin to obviate the very point of carrying a pistol?

  • Don

    You can’t make the force go away, you can just spread it out over time.

    The mechanism makes sense to me as far as trying to balance the muzzle flip by throwing some weight near the end of the barrel downward, however when that weight comes back up it will flip the muzzle. I guess the question is whether you want all the flip at once (right after the shot) or half of it after the shot and the other half an instant later.

    I really do appreciate out of the box thinking but sometimes if you just use a stiffer slide spring and put a little mass on the slide of a conventional design you get the same result and have a tried and true mechanism behind it.

    Here’s a free crazy idea:

    Forget about linear momentum exchanges.
    Dump some of the recoil into a small flywheel in the frame. The flywheel is an even longer-duration delay mechanism. On a rapid firing sequence you speed up the wheel and then you are using the built up momentum to gyroscopically stabilize the firearm. The momentum robbed from the wheel due to the muzzle flip and frictional losses will self regulate the wheel.

    Where’s my gun patent?

    -D

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Don, cool, I like that idea :)

  • Josh

    I agree with Carl. How is this a blowback system if, as it says, “Once the barrel recoils back a certain distance, the bolt is unlocked and pushed back.”

    I am certainly no expert on firearms systems, but I thought a blowback system has a fixed barrel and a bolt that doesn’t lock to the barrel. I thought a barrel that recoils and a bolt that has to unlock during operation was indicative of a recoil system.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      I may have confused a locking mechanism in the bolt with the “mobile mass” (the forward weight).

  • http://gunscoffee.blogspot.com/ Fred

    It’s not doing anything weird as far as physics is concerned. Muzzle flip is caused by the recoil rotating the gun in your hand, and to a lesser extent by the slide cycling (it’s not as noticeable since it counteracts itself as the slide goes back into battery.) If you had one of those old squeeze pistols with the barrel sticking out between your fingers, you wouldn’t have any muzzle flip, just straight back recoil. That’s also why extended beavertail safeties on 1911′s are so popular, it spreads out the recoil, fights the muzzle flip, and lets you get a good high grip without getting your hand torn up.

    This one looks to combine a nice low bore hight and a counter weight that counters the mechanical rotation that causes muzzle flip, just like the Super V design. It’s not reducing recoil, just redirecting it, resulting in lower felt recoil.

  • Will W

    10mm AUTO! Do it! Do it now!

  • Komrad

    Is it just me or does this gun look like the 10mm pistol from Fallout 3.

  • Slim934

    OMG!!!!!

    I can’t wait to see a prettied up version of it.

  • HeavenlySword

    dude, its so ugly it makes glocks look like 1911s….

    is it reliable as a glock?

  • subase

    If it doesn’t work, or you run out of bullets, would make a great impact weapon!

    Also it not having a slide makes a touch and shoot weapon, like a revolver.

  • jaekelopterus

    It’s the future, and THIS is my flying car. Awesome!

  • Ben dejo

    The mechanism reminds me much of the Browning Machine guns, (specifically the 1919A4), just rearranged.

    To Josh’s comment about blowback systems, the barrel can either move or be static. the 1911 Colt and P-08 Luger are blowback systems with moving barrels, the Uzi and MAC-10 are unlocked blowback systems with static barrels. Not to be condescending, but I hope these examples do help.

  • DavidR

    Looks like it also has texturing on the part of the gun, forward of the trigger. Think this is intended for a more carbine-like hold?

    With such a short barrel I’d be afraid, but if they increased the bbl length a bit and/or added a hand stop, it’s starting to look like a mini PDW!

  • Josh

    @Ben dejo:

    Everything I’ve seen refers to the M1911 as a short-recoil system, not blowback. Not to be condescending, but that example doesn’t help.

  • AntiCitizenOne

    do it in 10mm auto? pffft do it in .50 AE

  • Mac_Trekkie

    Good. Gravy. I want one now!

    What calibers will it be offered in? It looks like its begging for 357 Mag. or at least 38 special. I am hoping for the following spread:

    .22LR
    .380ACP
    9mm Para/Luger
    10mm AUTO
    .40S&W
    .45ACP

    I dream of the following list:
    .357 Mag.
    .44Mag.
    .50A/E

    That would be awesome.

  • DaveP.

    @Ben dejo:

    In all of your first three examples (both handguns AND the Browning MG) both barrel and bolt or slide move backwards while locked together until the bullet has left the barrel; therefore they are recoil-operated Since the barrel and the bolt (or slide) unlock before moving a greater distance than the length of the cartridge, they’re considered “short” recoil.
    Both of your submachine gun examples are true blowback: the bolt does not lock to the barrel at all, but is moved by gas pressure from the bullet moving down the barrel: in effect, the cartridge head becomes the head of a piston. Most .380 or smaller handguns work by straight blowback.
    H&K rifles and SMG’s work by delayed blowback: the bolt still isn’t locked to the barrel, but there’s a mechanism (a pair of rollers attached to the bolt that move against shoulders in the reciever) to slow down the bolt so as to allow operation at higher pressures; or with lighter moving parts or lighter recoil springs.

  • SpaceCadet

    definitely looks like Judge Dredd’s LawGiver

  • http://www.kaliber.hu gvass

    OVERCOMPLICATED!

  • glock

    ugly gun that looks useless and has no real function. im sticking with my glock.

  • Jack Dupp

    I should be called the Kriss Tard because it looks like a pistol with Down’s Syndrome. If I buy one I’ll call it Corky.

  • Danny

    Looks very Scifi, pretty awesome. :D

  • Rusty Ray

    Sorry, but what is the point of this gun? And where is all this fear of recoil coming from? GUNS ARE MEANT TO RECOIL!!! It is half the bloody fun.

    Cheers – Rusty

  • William O. B’Livion


    Dump some of the recoil into a small flywheel in the frame. The flywheel is an even longer-duration delay mechanism.”

    You couldn’t get a big enough (as in radius) wheel in there.

  • http://gunscoffee.blogspot.com/ Fred

    I’m sure that this is a very early test model, and rails will come later, especially if the ability for optic mounting is going to be a selling point. I’m sure we’ll see quite a few changes before it hits the market, I mean just look at the first version of the Super V design…

    And yes, it does look a bit like the 10mm from Fallout 3.

  • d

    this reminds me of the Magsec 7 gun in Perfect Dark for N64

  • charles taylor

    I hope people realize that this is just a rough proof of concept prototype pictured. If TDI uses magpul to design the exterior (like they did with the KRISS) then I’m sure it’s going to look MUCH better once they’ve finalized it.

  • http://sheepdogchronicles.com Grey

    It’s as though someone took a picture of Hillary clinton and said design a firearm around the picture.

  • Bryan S

    Anyone else see a custom anno job with graphics to give it teeth like the old jet fighters?

  • http://www.predatorwild.com Heath

    Can you imagine what the holster is going to look like for this thing?

  • Brian

    These guns could take over USPSA if there is such a noticeable reduction in muzzle flip, especially open division where you can mount a scope and add a compensator. IF these are offered in .38 super.

  • Whatever

    I don’t get why this design has any benefits over existing designs. It will probably have less recoil but that will be because it looks like it’ll be very nose heavy, something that can be done with existing designs.

    I’d rather see someone shrink the Desert Eagle design down to use 45 ACP or 9mm.

  • Red

    @DaveP

    Thanks for explenation, do you have a refence you get that from or just threw expeirence. I want to learn more about the different systems.

  • Don

    @ William O. B’Livion

    It wasn’t a really serious suggestion, but then again I’ve seen dumber things patented.

    Actually I take it back partially, maybe for some kind of rapid firing artillery mounted on a large platform. There’s actually people around where I work that do flywheel research and the things they make don’t look anything like what you’d expect…

    Oh and when their experimental flywheels blow up it is a thing to behold.

    -D

  • John Callahan

    cool i wonder if it will be in 9mm first though? cuz a full auto .45 pistol would kick awfully hard…

  • DCanoe

    I hope it comes in 10mm auto :p

  • Adam

    This is a delayed blowback system with a fixed barrel. The moving mass under the barrel needs to be pivoted out of the way for the breach to open and this is what delays the blowback. The mass cannot eliminate any reaction forces on the gun due to exiting projectile and propellants but it may delay the application of the force a little. This can give the shooter more time to react to the force and the weapon will be easier to control. This is why a simi-auto will feel softer than a revolver of the same weight and caliber. The amount of recoil is the same but the moving slide spreads the recoil over time so it is easier to manage.

    I suspect most of the reduction in muzzle climb will be due to low bore axis and hanging weight at the nose of the gun. Both of these benefits can be had in more conventional and proven short recoil designs.

    The fixed barrel should make the gun more accurate. Also optics can be rigidly mounted further increasing accuracy potential. This is a moot point considering most pistols sold today are more accurate than their users. It would be good for hunting but I fear this will not be chambered in an appropriate hunting round. Delayed blowback systems can have strength issues that prevent them from being used with the larger cartridges. Also the swinging mass would need to be a lot bigger.

    I do have a safety concern with this system. The pivoting mass appears to have a catch that holds it in the down position until the bolt has returned and chambered a round. If the mass gets jammed in the down position the gun will become a straight blowback system with a very light bolt. This would most likely result in case rupture resulting in an unscheduled dissassembly of the firearm. The fix for this is using a firing pin safety that is engaged until the mass is in the up position. I could not tell from the pictures if this was the case and I was to lazy to read the whole patent application.

  • Bobby

    I kind of like the idea, but if it’s anywhere near as reliable as the TDI KRISS.

    I won’t buy one. I couldn’t fire a full magazine out of a KRISS without the trigger locking up.

  • DavidR

    Adam, judging solely from the drawings, it looks like the bolt cannot go fully back into battery w/o the forward block returning to the “up” position.

  • adamr

    This should be chambered in .224 BOZ.

  • zak

    I third the vote for 10mm Auto

  • Anton

    The KRISS KARD: There’s a full butter-brick in the front housing!

  • Vaarok

    Sure looks like the Automag Enforcer from Unreal / Tournament videogames. Seriously creepy resemblance.

  • Adam

    DavidR, I still have not read the whole patent app but I did get past paragraph 0016. It states that the mobile mass can have a catch that holds the mass in the down position until the mobile bolt has returned to firing position. I don’t know why the call it a “mobile” bolt. It would not be much of a bolt if it wasn’t.

    I’m still not buying their “redirecting the recoil” argument. All the force acting on the bullet and propellant to accelerate them downrange will act on the gun in the opposite direction. This is a basic law of physics and no internal mechanism is going to change it. There are ways of tweaking how the loads are applied but at the end of the day action is going to equal reaction.

  • MIKEONE

    Nice to see new designs being brought to the market. Instead of another rebranded renamed 1911 type handgun. After firing the Kriss Subgun, I have to say these guys who built that thing new their stuff. It may sound like battlestar galactica hoopla but if it works it works.

    As for the handgun it does look large in the frontal area and I betcha this is just a prototype and the end version may have found weight watchers by release time.

    If the gun doesn’t muzzle flip, and I can put a red dot where I want on the top, and I can run a can with no Neilson device then A+ I may buy one one two.

    This design kinda looks like the relatively unknown Hogue Avenger
    http://www.getgrip.com/main/whatsnew/avenger.html

  • EGO

    looks like a glock ugly mod dont you think?

    • NOxONE

      It’s not the cosmetics that matter, it’s the weapon system inside the piece. Any gun with a boxed appearance looks like a Glock, don’t you think?

      • noob

        I woudln’t be surprised if KRISS has to put some rounded corners on it to get away from glock’s trade dress. sigh.

  • 777conservativesquid

    dear lord in heaven please let there be high cap mags please also some night sights

  • Bang

    Think of the inherent accuracy. Its more of a target pistol hybrid.
    I wonder how well it will work in low G ?

  • Jake

    I know, make one for .410 shotshells. The Auto-Judge.

  • Mouse

    According to a company spokesperson, it will come in full auto. You can hear him say so in the video below:

  • Dario

    Its in black ops 2… Come at me bro.! It’s at 1:09 in the trailer…!

    • Derka

      That’s a modified Glock.

      • troll

        No its not bitch
        the picture is from a game called ROBLOX

      • ALRIGHTY THEN

        DUDE THIS IS A GLOCK

  • John Bourbon

    I have the Vector. I like it. It’s def for close quarters only. Only thing is that it is very picky with the ammo. Kriss recommends only using 5or 6 types. Hope the new one is a little more rugged and lenient on ammo.