Savage Muzzleloader KABOOM
UPDATE: There is more to this story than meet the eye.
There have been a lot of recently publicized KBs. I was emailed these photos of a Savage Model 10ML II "Smokeless" Muzzleloader. The accident happened last October.
The Model 10ML II is designed so that it can be used with smokeless powder, which generates much higher pressure than blackpowder.
The shooters hand, which was holding the fore end of the stock, suffered a lot of damage. I decided not to publish photos of his hand because they are far too graphic, but can be seen here (YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!).
The North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association published the shooters account of the incident ..
"On October 24th, 2009, I went to Broad Valley, Manitoba where I had purchased a hunting cabin with a couple of friends, to do some work on the cabin. And we thought we would get in a hunt that afternoon and the next morning. I had not sighted my muzzleloader this year, so went to a pit south of town to do so. I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet. One of my buddies suggested I shoot over the hood of his truck, but I did not have ear protection, so decided to shoot off of a canvas duffle bag full of clothes. First shot was my last shot - as there was a large explosion...with my hand under the barrel on the forestock. The barrel and forestock blew apart (per pictures), and some part of the gun blew off and dented the door of the truck. My buddies took me to Hodgson General Hospital 20 minutes away. From there, I was transported by ambulance to Winnipeg Health Science Center 2 hours away, where I underwent 6 hours of surgery. Doctors expect 2-3 more surgeries, and I will be off work for 6 months to a year.
[ Many thanks to Frank for emailing me the photo. ]
I tried my best!
Some 9,000-10,000 smokeless shots later I still have all of my appendages.This has user error written all over it. I have taken these guns to extremes with approved and non approved powders. The amount of safety built in to these guns is incedible. They are by far the safest muzzeloaders on the market bar non! I feel the man but stupid is as stupid does…PAY ATTENTION PERIOd!
We have to also consider the material the barrel is made from.
If the barrels are 416 or 416R stainless it is a brittle steel.
A few years ago SAKO had a rash of blow ups of stainless rifles in various calibers, here and in Europe with FACTORY ammo. They instituted a recall, bad lot of steel, they said.
There have been other unexplained blowups of various stainless rifles and there was a significant failure rate in some 1911 45ACP barrels a few years ago. Note that due to design the 1911 blows the case at the feed ramp rather than the barrel from overpressure.
As a result of these, and a warning on the Krieger barrels site, I am not too quick to blame the shooter when a stainless firearm in involved.
I do not believe that 416, a free machining (brittle) stainless is a good choice for firearms barrels. Some research on the WWW will give more info.
But with a ML there is little recourse to the injured since every load in a handload.
I have a Savage 110 ML and love it, weigh each charge, and have a check line on my ramrod. This has DOUBLE CHARGE written all over it. I am a canadian and feel sorry for the damage he suffered but if you look at the gun, this is not from a measured single load.
Ignorance is such an ugly thing. I have a Savage MLII and have had it for 6+ years. Yes it uses smokeless powder instead blackpowder (do you think the pioneers would have not used smokeless powder if they had it back then?) and that is the main reason I bought it. Blackpowder is corrosive and inherently more dangerous than smokeless powder. Pour out 2 grains of each type and light a match to each. Which one lit? Most (not all) smokeless powders take pressure to light. It is the safest muzzleloading rifle ever made and it is the cleanest. The only way it would blow like this – user error. There had to be a double load or obstruction. I feel for the guy, but to blame the manufacture/gun for a user mistake, is just wrong. I hope Savage starts making them again and does a better job of marketing it. They stopped production because of lack of sales – not the gun blowing up.
Better to have socialized healthcare than none at all. My brother was just injured in a hunting accident, using a Savage Arms gun.
He may have to have his leg amputated as a result, because he doesn’t have insurance and the state of Virginia is unwilling to help. He’s 25, a student, and very athletic. This is a real tragedy, and our family sure wishes we had even the most basic socialized healthcare. We feel totally helpless. Whether it’s less better or not, at least Canada takes care of its citizens in the most basic way…
What on earth is the point of having a smokeless load muzzle-loading gun? Is this just yet another way to participate in a so called “muzzleloader season” without having to use a traditional muzzleloader? This is just not right.
Dissapointed.
The guy who shot his hand off was sighting hi rifle in for the up coming deer season. that should put the red flags up right there. 7/10 muzzle loader blow ups occur at exactly this time due to improper storage (i.e. leaving a charge in the gun during the off season). Anyone worth their salt in the world of muzzle loading do 3 things. 1 ensure any charge left in the gun has been fired off or removed before long term storage. 2 always have a ramrod with a witness mark. 3 Do a pre season break down of the entire gun including the breech plug not only to ensure the gun is in proper working order but also to safe guard against this kind of disaster.
It is unfortunate that the owner of that hand sent the damaged gun to Toby Bridges. As stated above he has a vendetta against savage after he was shooting the ML2 with loads and charges that were not within the tolerable limits of the gun and had his R&D contract with Saved was severed. It is interesting to note that the only other blown up ML2 was done by Toby Bridges to which he tried to use in a frivolous law suit against Savage Arms. After the gun was tested by an independent lab it was found that the metallurgy of the damaged gun barrel was pristine and that it took over 320,000 psi of pressure to blow up the barrel. This number can be duplicated by …. ya you guessed it double loading the gun. Toby never made dollar one off his suit. Toby has also burned bridges with Knight rifles in the past as well.
Even if the guy with the damaged hand did not trust savage to be on the up and up with the forensics of his blown up rifle then why did he not go to a lawyer and get the gun tested himself? If the gun was indeed defective this would have been a far better way to go than give the gun to a guy who has it in for an ex employer (Savage).
As for the comments about the surgery quality I doubt you guys have the letters MD at the end of your name. Those are post trauma picture and probably not even close to the end product. This guy has a lot of surgeries ahead of him.
Even though the Canadian health care system is flawed I thank GOD I do not have to worry about an insurance company denying me coverage for medical expenses or driving my family into bankruptcy to pay for costly medical care!! That being said USA is still the best place in the world to live…. if you have money!
i have a savage,and u can leave a load in all season, so maybe he shot a double load!!!
This just goes to show that you NEVER put smokeless powder in a black powder gun. Even if the manufacture thinks it is ok. When loading a muzzle loader, you always push the bullet or patched ball down on the powder. It is to my understanding that some rifle loads that are in cased in a regular bullet configuration, require some kind of open space with in the powder chamber of the bullet. With loading a muzzle loader, you simply do not have this ramming the bullet against the powder.
Blackpowder in a muzzleloader is generally measured by volume. Maybe this smokeless charge was not weighed? Would that result in an overcharge?
Addeumen: If someone can pull up other kabooms concerning this rifle, by all means enlighten me. I’m not going to say that this was the only one, just the only one that I found.
(sorry for the double post, I posted, then realized that I should have added this in. you can put it in the first one if you so desire.)
Through my rather limited abilities at googlefu, I have discovered only ONE other separate kaboom from a savage barrel ending in a lawsuit in recent history (past 10 years). And that kaboom was using a metallic cartridge rifle, and has questions of user error. Now, I’ve read Mr. Wakeman’s article, I’ve read all the theories, all the other information on this site and others, and I can’t decide if this is genuine or staged. However, the fact remains that upon my initial search for any other failures of this level, I got bombarded by other sites talking about this story, and only one separate incident, leads me to believe that IF the manufacturer is to blame, this is an isolated fluke, and I have a hard time understanding why it went to lawsuit. Usually, in a kaboom, if the firearm is sent to the manufacturer, they examine it, and if fault lies with them, they are more than happy to make amends to avoid negative press. The fact that there was no mention of Savage Arms being allowed to examine the rifle before a lawsuit was filed makes me question this man’s priorities, character, and motives.
Careful when you cite or quote Randy Wakeman. Randy has a financial stake in the bashing of CVA. He is a paid witness for a law firm that has sued CVA for product liability relating to the old bankrupt CVA and the recalled rifles from 95/96. In at least one of the lawsuits he was not allowed to testify because the judge didn’t think he testify as to what had happened. I do not believe he has any formal engineering training, as in a degree from any type of university.
Before becoming some kind of arm chair expert on muzzleloaders he was and is an expert in illusion and deception randywakemanmagic.com and I will admit he spins a good yarn.
I find it ironic that Randy is so quick to claim that one manufactures is making a substandard product and then dismiss a similar fault when it happens to be a product he likes. Speculation is worthless. the lesson to learned is to be vigilant and careful.
I saw this awhile back & I thought the conclusion was that he fired it with the ram rod still in the barrel?
That is socialized heathcare. Instead of getting patched up and having to file for bankruptcy, (like my father) he will just get patched up.
Either way, I’m not a doctor so I won’t comment on what it looks like. He did blow part of his hand off though. What do you expect?
Now that says a lot about socialized healthcare. :/
Out of curiosity, I looked up the owner’s manual for the rifle on the Savage Arms website. The .pdf file manual says that the 43.5 grain load of IMR4759 was within the recommended range of loads for a 250 grain bullet. From the look of the rifle, it looks like the barrel was obstructed with something.
I would have guessed that an error in powder measurement or bullet selection would have led to a very loud report and recoil with the bolt leaving the rifle, rather than the barrel bursting.
For those of you who are worried about reloading or shooting muzzleloaders, please bear in mind that almost all competitive shooters reload thousands of rounds a year without incident and that literally millions of hunters use muzzleloaders in the US every year without any explosions. Like anything dealing with firearms, these activities can be dangerous if handled in a cavalier or careless fashion.
Curtis, they designed it to be able to work with smokeless powder, and part of the design includes the bolt closing over the percussion cap to make the breech stronger, as I recall.
.45-70 is not a high pressure load. You should not use that for comparison to a modern smokeless powder rifle load.
Woodrow, please feel free the source for any info, it is encouraged! Welcome to the blog!
I would like to point everyone to this article:
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm
The account from the North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association is to the site hpmuzzleloading.com, which is operated by Toby Bridges, an ex-employee of Savage who has attempted to extort money by using pictures of a Savage 10-ML II that he appears to have purposefully blown up. I wouldn’t trust anything connected to this man.
RedMinotaur, thanks. I have added a link to the top of the page.
That’s how it look like after surgery. It’s normal. Trust me. Once the swelling are gone and the healing started it should look a lot better. Not sure if he will have full function of his hand tho.
I don’t have muzzle loader firearms experience, so I’m going to stay out of this one.
It’s Canada. Government supplied health care.
i really hope we see a follow up to this… too often with a Kb we get pictures, armchair guesses and then nothing.
it would be nice to get a definitive conclusion from someone in the know.
It’s Canada. Even their PM goes to the US when he wants good healthcare. It’s a real shame what happened, but I’ve seen worse. I saw a guy step on an unexploded bomblet from a 155mm DPICM round. That was not pretty.
That’s nationalized health care right there.
I have seen alot of the same type of claims with CVA products. Have to wonder if the gun was properly loaded? Most muzzle loader or black powder firearms come with a warnings that the projectile must be fully seated on top of the charge. Any air pockets between black powder(&substitues), and the charge can cuase this exact problem. It appears this is a possibility considering the area of explodage:( Get well soon dude!
The pictures of that guy’s hand actually made me reconsider my shooting techniques and practices.
Wow. That guy’s hand is straight out of Frankenstein now.
forgive me for being uninformed but why dose it have a bolt handle if it’s a muzzle loader?
curtis, the primer still has to be loaded from the back.
He’s in Canada. No insurance involved.
FWIW, I suspect he didn’t seat his bullet – no clue about smokeless powder front loaders, but it’s a pretty classic obstructed bore rupture, IMHO.
Pardon my ignorance, but why does this muzzleloading gun have a bolt action at the rear?
You warned about the hand pictures, but I clicked the link anyway. Now I’m cleaning vomit off my keyboard. FAIL
Doogie, yep, I knew y’all would click anyway
I tried my best!
D’oh, I should have read the first paragraph more closely. A smokeless muzzleloader, huh. You can deny my first comment and save me some embarrassment, Steve.
Anyway, something about the idea of a smokeless muzzleloader kinda bothers me. Higher pressures and a less controlled loading.
Intentionally shooting without ear protection doesn’t exactly give me the impression of a responsible shooter. Not that that is any proof that the kaboom was caused by the shooter, of course.
Muzzleloading, like handloading, but perhaps even more so, seems like a somewhat dangerous pastime. As well as difficult to determine after an accident who is to blame, of course. I think I’ll stick with name brand factory made ammo, complete in shell casings, myself, for the time being…
Either the poor fellow had bad insurance, which only allowed him so much care or he’s in for a lawsuit with the E.R that took care of him as well. That’s sloppy surgery right there.