Comments on: FBI Purchasing .40 S&W AR-15 carbines

By: J.B.

J.B. — Sat, 20 Aug 2011 00:52:14 +0000

I sent RRA an email today asking about the LAR-40. They said that they’re still trying to work out an issue with the magazine followers and they’re not available yet. The automated email I got when I sent in my question said they’d try to respond within 3 business days. But they responded in like 3 hours. Makes me think they get that question a lot and have a standard response they send back. I can’t imagine it would be THAT hard to make a reliable .40 follower to go in a Colt pattern 9mm mag. Maybe with all the other military orders going on they don’t have many people to devote to it.

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By: still waiting

still waiting — Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:14:44 +0000

I ordered one of these when they were first announced, been over a year and a half…

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By: Jason

Jason — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:33:41 +0000

And the comment about crushing mil surplus 1911s and getting “piece of crap” plastic Glocks? Wow. Obviously you’ve never handled any old surplus 1911′s. Now THAT is crap. You’re not talking about some $3,000 custom fitted 1911 here. You’re talking about old military junk that has been used and abused for decades and was purposely built with loose tolerances to operate even when covered in mud and junk. I carry 2 Glocks every day, and have every day for 12 years. When I first started I was 21, stupid, and thought Glocks were tactical tupperware. Now I wouldn’t carry anything else on duty. I sure as hell wouldn’t carry an old military surplus 1911.

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By: Jason

Jason — Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:36 +0000

I’m surprised at all the people who think that a .223 penetrates so much. Obviously people who have limited operational experience. A standard .223 round may be kicking along at nearly 3,000 fps, but the bullet only weighs 55-62 grains typically. Most LE .40 loads are 180 grains. Momentum counts for a lot. Whether you’re talking about bodies or structures a .40 S&W will almost always out penetrate a .223. Whether it’s a modern defensive load or an old FMJ. On duty I carry a Glock 22, a Glock 27, a 14″ Remington 870, and a 20 inch select fire Colt M-16. These .40 carbines, if they get the short barrels, are an excellent idea, to supplement .223′s, not to replace them. Anyone who has ever fired a short barreled .223 inside a room will understand why.

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By: Some Guy

Some Guy — Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:29:45 +0000

It would be great to use this in 10mm atuo, lol

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By: Anecdotal

Anecdotal — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:20:43 +0000

Anyone consider the possibility that the feeb wants something that penetrates car doors and glass better than 5.56? I’m not sure the 40 cal is the right caliber for that but it may do better than everything except bonded 5.56 rounds.

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By: mike

mike — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 23:30:48 +0000

For what it’s worth,

I can’t wait for this carbine to come out and have been following the news on it for a few years. I have all the parts for my build sitting in an ammo can. I check the low-down once in a while from Steve on the RRA forum on ar15.com and apparently, the issues with the magazine have been solved as of this date and production of them has begun so they can start shipping them out soon. But who knows. I’ll keep waiting, though.

I get .40cal ammo free. Super. Saves me money.

I reload .40S&W and have a nice recipe for 200gr rounds for use with my YHM Cobra .45 suppressor with .40cal adapter. I load Zero 200gr FMJs and am looking into getting some 200gr cast rounds for a great price. Subsonic fun for cheap.

RRA has told me that the weapon functions well down to a 7 inch barrel, so that’s what I’d love to do. If I didn’t live in Washington State, I would. No SBR’s here. I’ll buy an extra barrel at the 7 inch length, throw it in my safe and hopefully I can get back to Oregon soon.

Proprietary lower? Great. Less parts to pin/weld/whatever. I like that.

Proprietary magazine? Great. Built specifically for the weapon platform. Hopefully they price them reasonably.

As far as the rest of it goes, I don’t really care. On the day that the red balloon goes up, or the reckoning comes, or the zombies attack, I won’t be using this weapon. I have far more .223 saved up.

But for a pistol caliber AR carbine (which I’ve always wanted) this is the best for me. Well, this and eventually that new S&W M&P .22lr AR. THAT little sucker is awesome. And with its polymer upper, forend and lower, it’s very light. If I could SBR that one and nest a YHM Mite down in the polymer quad rail, I would imagine it would be very, very fun. Interested in seeing how those polymer parts hold up over the years, though.

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By: GunBuilder

GunBuilder — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:35:24 +0000

PIGamer, I respect your opinion but do not agree with it. You are implying there is some sort of everyday war going on out there in which criminals are wearing body armor and armed to the hilt, I disagree. On average police are facing civilians with civilian firearms. When the need arises they can always call in a unit like SWAT right, otherwise why do they have them? Please do not get me wrong, I am all for officers having high capacity firearms and calibers that will do the job, I just hate to see them re-purchasing over and over again at my expense. A sheriff here just replaced the M4s with P90s. I asked why in the hell did you do that? He said well the M4s were getting old and they needed something more compact. Ummmm ok, whatever…..

Now your point on the and I will quote you “There are many accounts of enemies taking up to seven 223 rounds before collapsing, although not even dead sometimes.” is rumor and not reality. While there have been some real issues with .223 performance in the field you cannot just say MANY ACCOUNTS of up to SEVEN rounds without making my eyes kinda roll.

I agree the .223 is not well suited for the mission but it is what they decided to buy with our tax money. Clinton also decided to destroy the majority of the M-14 stock (So I have heard) leaving no fall back.

I am a gun lover and a military nut. This argument is from a tax payer perspective, I am paying way to much! Utilize the weapons in inventory and stop buying fad firearms. You will never convince me that a P90 is more effective for CIVILIAN Law Enforcement than an M4. They just wanted the P90 and had money in the budget to spend.

There are more weapons in military stockpile the government could give to LEO than you might imagine. Instead they crush Colt 1911s and then LEO but piece of crap plastic Glocks. It makes me so mad! LOL

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By: PIGamer

PIGamer — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:13:41 +0000

While i understand the mentality GunBuilder, i have to disagree. Officers may want to subdue someone rather than straight out kill them. So headshots are a no-go most of the time. With body armor of varying degrees being more readily available year after year, law enforcement officials have to adapt by adopting calibers with a little more stopping power. While one might disagree with what should adopted, i feel it only makes sense that as criminal’s technology changes so should the officers’.
223, for example, is not quite as reiable as it used to be. There are many accounts of enemies taking up to seven 223 rounds before collapsing, although not even dead sometimes. What do you propose then. Tell our soldiers to shoot better? Because changing to 6.8 or 6.5 ammo would be stupid right?

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By: GunBuilder

GunBuilder — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:42:51 +0000

I find it amusing how people like to critique firearms and the abilities of calibers like fine wine. The firearm is a just a tool. Truth is the majority of law enforcement has no use for this type of equipment in everyday work. A 12 gauge shotgun is good for an entry situation and a bolt action .308 is good for those outside ranged encounters. They buy them because they are cool and they like toys as much as you do. A perpetrator 99% of the time does not care if you shot him with a .223 vs. .40 cal he is still going to go down. You cannot plan every single firearm purchase around the LA bank robbery as this was a rare occurrence. It frustrates me to see civilian law enforcement tooling up with military style carbines, not because of the weapons but because of the cost to tax payers. Keep what you have already purchased no need for new rifles in any law enforcement arsenal at this point. Anyway back to my point on the critique of calibers. There is little in the way of consistency in bullets. One time a .22 will blast through a house and another time a .308 will stop in the first wall. You cannot simulate this in testing; combat is a very different thing. Regardless of caliber I prefer accuracy and dependability that my friend is the most deadly combination regardless of the firearm or caliber.

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By: justdavid

justdavid — Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:46:48 +0000

Erwoson, doesn’t look like this design will take Glock mags so they’re not even getting mag compatibility out of this. Not that it’s necessarily worth all that much.

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By: Ramtinxxl

Ramtinxxl — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:14:14 +0000

I, too, noted the very unprofessional nature of the “solicitation notice” with regard to spelling, word usage, etc. Adds to the idea of the FBI as ILLITERATE “jack boot thugs,” eh?

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By: Destroyer

Destroyer — Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:36:49 +0000

stella, that is exactly what i was saying. Fast handgun calibers (like the 40 and longer 10mm) have a tendency to over penetrate compared to 5.56mm rounds because they stay intact. 5.56 ammunition does not over penetrate. This was discovered because soldiers and police officers, believing in the 5.56mm’s implied penetrative abilities, during firefights, did not have sufficient penetration of walls or even car glass (one law enforcement officer failed to penetrate an assailants front windshield with his AR15 loaded with polymer ammunition). The civilian 5.56mm’s comparatively higher tendency to tumble, thus reducing its odds of over penetration, makes the AR15 a viable solution for law enforcement. Stella’s references are pretty damning for the false conception that the 223/5.56mm is a over penetrating liability.

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By: jdun1911

jdun1911 — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:34:28 +0000

Steve is correct that if you got a 5.56 bullet that is design to break up and penetrate less. Well it going to do just that. But a typical 62 gr bullet or higher will keep it shape and mass much more better then a bullet that design to fragment.

Also try at different impact range. The closer the 5.56 impact on an object from the muzzle the more likely it will break depending on the bullet design and weight.

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By: jdun1911

jdun1911 — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:24:37 +0000

Put more walls up and see what penetrate further. Most pistol calibers have energy less then 400 lbs ft. The 5.56 has over 1700 lbs ft. It will penetrate more and dump more at all range compare to pistol calibers.

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By: Steve

Steve — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:24:25 +0000

Stella, hmmm … I can’t argue with their results but it is depending on the 5.56mm bullet tumbling. If it does not tumble it is going to go much further.

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By: Stella

Stella — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:11:45 +0000

jdunn1911:

Really? .223/5.56 penetrates less than pistol rounds in the stuff that homes are made of. Examples:

http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_2.htm

Purpose built bullets like TAP will do even worse. If the FBI is concerned with over-penetration defensive .223 is a better choice than .40 S&W JHP.

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By: jdun1911

jdun1911 — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 02:13:44 +0000

I can assure you Stella that the 5.56 will penetrate far more then any pistol caliber at any range.

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By: Daniel E. Watters

Daniel E. Watters — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:50:26 +0000

After the “Miami Massacre” in 1986, the Bureau purchased 9mm MP5 for issue to field agents, but these had semi-auto trigger groups installed. The MP5/10 purchased later were for the high speed/low drag types. The Bureau tried to get HK to make more a while back, but clearly HK has no interest in reviving the MP5/10 and MP5/40. The Bureau also evaluated the UMP in .40 S&W, and rejected it. There is an unflattering briefing available that shows the effects of a 9x19mm cartridge finding its way inside the UMP’s barrel followed by the firing of a .40 S&W round. It wasn’t very healthy for the UMP’s plastic receivers.

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By: Stella

Stella — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:18:13 +0000

Destroyer:

Most .223/5.56 bullets have fairly poor barrier performance and in most mediums pistol rounds will produce similar if not greater over-penetration issues.

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