FBI Purchasing .40 S&W AR-15 carbines
Back in August (2009) the Department of Justice published their intention to purchase AR-15 carbines chambered in .40 S&W from Rock River Arms.
Their reasons for choosing the RRA LAR-40 carbine is that, because they already use AR-15s, training and maintenance will be minimized. From the solicitation notice ...
BASED ON THE MARKET RESEARCH AND FBI REQUIRMENTS, , USE OF A COLT PATTERN .40 S&W CALIBER CARBINE, WILL RESOLVE THE MAINTENANCE ISSUE, ENSURING A RELIABLE SOURCE OF PISTOL CALIBER CARBINES. FURTHER, THE ROCK RIVER ARMS LAR40 PISTOL CALIBER CARBINE WILL ALLOW THE FBI TO MAXIMIZE TRAINING, SINCE THE OPERATIN SYSTEM AND CONTROLS ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO THE COLT PATTERN 5.56 X 45 ADDITION, BY USE OF A COMMON WEAPON PLATFORM, THERE IS A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF PARTS INTERCHANGEABILITY BETWEEN EXISTIN FBI 5.56 X 45 MM LAR15 ROCK RIVER ARMS CARBINES AND THE LAR40, FURTHER ENHANCING THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS ACQUISITION. THE FBI REQUIRES AN INTEGRAL MAGAZINE WELL (AS OPPOSED TO A PINNED MAGAZINE WELL ADAPTOR) AND A CALIBER DEDICATED MAGAZINE, DEVELOPED SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS WEAPON SYSTEM AND CALIBER, WHICH ENSURES THE LEVEL OF RELIABILITY REQUIRED BY FBI SPECIAL AGENTS DURING HIGH RISK SITUATIONS. THE FBI REQUIRES THIS CARBINE TO BE MANUFACTURED IN .40 S&W CALIBER, WHICH WILL PROVIDE GREATER OPERATIONAL EFFECIENTCY, SINCE BOTH THE ISSUED SERVICE PISTOL AND THE PISTOL CALIBERCOLT PATTERN CARBINE WILL BE CHAMBERED FOR THE SAME AMMUNITION (I.E., .40 S&W CALIBER). ROCK RIVER ARMS IS THE ONLY MANUFACTURER KNOWN TO MEET THESE CRITICAL REQUIREMENTS.
You have got to hand it to the FBI, first 20mm rifles and now AR-15 carbines chambered in .40 S&W, they do think outside the box.
[ Many thanks to jdun1911 for emailing me the link. ]
It’s a shame they think outside the box of the Constitution too otherwise one wouldn’t mind them so much.
Seems like a very long and cumbersome barrel if this is intended for indoor use. And I wonder wether the .40 S&W really benefits from this. I saw a test somewhere where pistol caliber rounds seemed to max out at just slightly longer than pistol length barrels. Which, of course makes pefect sense, since it is pistol ammo.
And I really don’t know if using the AR for everything can be accurately described as “thinking outside the box”. Seems more like conservatism bordering on stagnation to me.
Question: is this blowback operated like the Colt 9mm SMG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_9mm_SMG)?
If it is indeed blowback operated one wonders how much similarity in parts and maintenance with the regular AR there actually is.
Is it just me or are all the Federal Law enforcement agencies rearming?
Every time I turn around there’s another order for a new type weapon.
Solomon, probably not much different to any other point in time. Right now the AR-15 is very fashionable and so many are switching to it. Hell, its only the military that seems to be reluctant to buy new guns (marines being the exception).
“Seems like a very long and cumbersome barrel if this is intended for indoor use.”
If this is a replacement for the MP5/40 the probably will use them with a 10″ barrel at most.
The picture is just a picture from the RRA website.
Looking at the synopsis, it was dated at the end of August 2009. I wonder if the FBI has taken delivery of these AR-15 in .40s yet.
Bill, I missed the date. Well spotted. I have updated the post.
Have to spend that budget money on something or they won’t get as much next year. Every gov’t bureaucracy does it. Be it office furniture or guns.
Outside the box? I fail to see how.
Feds have long used Colt 635s.
However, females agents at FLETC have long moaned about the “crushing recoil” of the 5.56 rifles. Hurts their qualification scores and they gripe to DOJ supervisors and EEOC.
Return of the dual standards.
this is a great time to visit
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/
and look up the results of .40 sw
What’s the point? If you already have and train with 5.56mm carbines, what does it add to have a .40 S&W carbine? Less power, heavier ammo, and greater overpenetration? Sure sounds like a great combination to me.
My affection for PCC’s seems to have been vindicated. I have and love my 9mm AR. Lots of fun to shoot and cheap to feed. 100% reliable too.
I am surprised that they didn’t choose the Olympic arms .40 cal AR-15 rifle. Does the Olympic arms use a “pinned mag well adapter”? I did not see anything on their site. All that it says is “Pistol cal 40 S&W in an AR-15 platform with a purpose-made lower receiver that uses Glock® magazines. “
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=60&category_id=7&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37
It would make since to use the Olympic arms since their agents are issued Glock 22 and 23 pistols. They then could use the same mags. What am I missing?
Anyone have any experiences with this gun?
What kind of a chump packs a pistol caliber (short and wimpy caliber at that) rifle to a “high risk situation”.
Also, I’d bet my life on a MP5 any day over a AR conversion.
Agency training does not always seem as thorough as one might think. I’ll be watching news footage for a guy with a .40 carbine and a tac vest loaded with 5.56 mags.
Seems pointless to me. I would get M4’s in .223. Anything the .40 can do the .223 could do better.
What’s with the shitty grammar punctuation and spelling?
‘Twould be a better choice in 10mm.
Todd,
M169 video. Too hot for me.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=39
i find this transaction a little ironic since the FBI apparently arrested S&W executives at SHOT show
. that being said, i think the 5.56 would serve just as good, if not better, than the 40. loaded with polymer rounds, the 5.56 does not have the over penetration issues it normally does.
Don’t they already have 10mm MP5’s? What a waste.
Would this tie in with the huge order of .40 ammo posted on a while back?
Yeah, I think I’d pick the 10mm MP-5 every time over this. Only reason I see for it is to maybe have magazine compatibility with their sidearms, and that seems rather over-rated…
Im with therreyman on this just buy regular M-4s or CAR-15 with good TRU or TAP ammo alot better than going to .40 S&W. Pistol caliber caribines are over grown pistols. Might as well buy Glocks with a 16 inch barrel same thing.
If I had to guess, they’re simply a replacement for aging MP5’s that H&K doesn’t build or support well enough anymore.
Add to that the fact that it does simplify training (same control and manual of arms for sub-guns and carbines) as well as maintaining ammo compatibility between sub-guns and pistols, it’s not a bad move in my mind. I’m sure that needing to cushion the budget had something to do with it, but switching from worn, high maintainence MP5s (roller-lock system vs. blowback) is probably cheaper in the long run.
Of course this all assumes that they are going to be select fire. If not, then it’s retarded and a 5.56 would be better.
Destroyer:
Most .223/5.56 bullets have fairly poor barrier performance and in most mediums pistol rounds will produce similar if not greater over-penetration issues.
After the “Miami Massacre” in 1986, the Bureau purchased 9mm MP5 for issue to field agents, but these had semi-auto trigger groups installed. The MP5/10 purchased later were for the high speed/low drag types. The Bureau tried to get HK to make more a while back, but clearly HK has no interest in reviving the MP5/10 and MP5/40. The Bureau also evaluated the UMP in .40 S&W, and rejected it. There is an unflattering briefing available that shows the effects of a 9×19mm cartridge finding its way inside the UMP’s barrel followed by the firing of a .40 S&W round. It wasn’t very healthy for the UMP’s plastic receivers.
I can assure you Stella that the 5.56 will penetrate far more then any pistol caliber at any range.
jdunn1911:
Really? .223/5.56 penetrates less than pistol rounds in the stuff that homes are made of. Examples:
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_2.htm
Purpose built bullets like TAP will do even worse. If the FBI is concerned with over-penetration defensive .223 is a better choice than .40 S&W JHP.
Stella, hmmm … I can’t argue with their results but it is depending on the 5.56mm bullet tumbling. If it does not tumble it is going to go much further.
Put more walls up and see what penetrate further. Most pistol calibers have energy less then 400 lbs ft. The 5.56 has over 1700 lbs ft. It will penetrate more and dump more at all range compare to pistol calibers.
Steve is correct that if you got a 5.56 bullet that is design to break up and penetrate less. Well it going to do just that. But a typical 62 gr bullet or higher will keep it shape and mass much more better then a bullet that design to fragment.
Also try at different impact range. The closer the 5.56 impact on an object from the muzzle the more likely it will break depending on the bullet design and weight.
stella, that is exactly what i was saying. Fast handgun calibers (like the 40 and longer 10mm) have a tendency to over penetrate compared to 5.56mm rounds because they stay intact. 5.56 ammunition does not over penetrate. This was discovered because soldiers and police officers, believing in the 5.56mm’s implied penetrative abilities, during firefights, did not have sufficient penetration of walls or even car glass (one law enforcement officer failed to penetrate an assailants front windshield with his AR15 loaded with polymer ammunition). The civilian 5.56mm’s comparatively higher tendency to tumble, thus reducing its odds of over penetration, makes the AR15 a viable solution for law enforcement. Stella’s references are pretty damning for the false conception that the 223/5.56mm is a over penetrating liability.
I, too, noted the very unprofessional nature of the “solicitation notice” with regard to spelling, word usage, etc. Adds to the idea of the FBI as ILLITERATE “jack boot thugs,” eh?