Comments on: M4 Carbine torture test http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: ERIC 1/75 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-39969 ERIC 1/75 Thu, 05 Aug 2010 04:28:09 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-39969 @ MARSH, HOW MANY BASES HAVE YOU BEEN TO WITH ONLY 12 PEOPLE IN IT, MORE OVER SO, HOW MANY BASES (PROPERLY CALLED POST WHEN IN REFERENCE TO ACTUAL ARMY SOLDIERS) HAVE YOU BEEN AT WITH SEVERAL HUNDRED PEOPLE ATTACKING, LARGE FORMATIONS HAVE ATTEMPTED TO ATTACK POST INSTALLMENTS BUT FAILED (IN EPIC PROPORTIONS) DUE TO THE INTERVENTION OF PREDITOR DRONES, SATALITE IMAGING AND GOOD OLD FASHION AIR STRIKES. I THINK THE BASE YOU ARE REFERENCING TO IS YOUR HOUSE, AND THE HUNDREDS OF ENEMIES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE IMAGINARY. THIS IS NOT YOUR GRANDPAS WAR MARSH. @ MARSH, HOW MANY BASES HAVE YOU BEEN TO WITH ONLY 12 PEOPLE IN IT, MORE OVER SO, HOW MANY BASES (PROPERLY CALLED POST WHEN IN REFERENCE TO ACTUAL ARMY SOLDIERS) HAVE YOU BEEN AT WITH SEVERAL HUNDRED PEOPLE ATTACKING, LARGE FORMATIONS HAVE ATTEMPTED TO ATTACK POST INSTALLMENTS BUT FAILED (IN EPIC PROPORTIONS) DUE TO THE INTERVENTION OF PREDITOR DRONES, SATALITE IMAGING AND GOOD OLD FASHION AIR STRIKES. I THINK THE BASE YOU ARE REFERENCING TO IS YOUR HOUSE, AND THE HUNDREDS OF ENEMIES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE IMAGINARY. THIS IS NOT YOUR GRANDPAS WAR MARSH.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26717 Lance Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:53:57 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26717 I personaly dont care and will support either going to piston or staying with DI. Ive shot both and both shoot good. What ever AR system the Army wants im sure solders will countinue to enjoy the fine layout of the M-4. I personaly dont care and will support either going to piston or staying with DI. Ive shot both and both shoot good. What ever AR system the Army wants im sure solders will countinue to enjoy the fine layout of the M-4.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26714 Destroyer Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:36:50 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26714 "I am sure the DoD will make the worse decision possible" indeed they will, history is on the side of that fact. I agree with carl and have put much thought into it. Technically you should be able to make a recoil or blowback operated assault rifle. Whatever works i guess “I am sure the DoD will make the worse decision possible”

indeed they will, history is on the side of that fact. I agree with carl and have put much thought into it. Technically you should be able to make a recoil or blowback operated assault rifle. Whatever works i guess

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Carl http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26671 Carl Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:26:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26671 It's worth keeping in mind that there are other reloading mechanisms available. Blowback (Cetme/HK G3) and recoil (Barret M82) for instance. Designers of new weapons should not get fixated on just DI or piston. It’s worth keeping in mind that there are other reloading mechanisms available. Blowback (Cetme/HK G3) and recoil (Barret M82) for instance. Designers of new weapons should not get fixated on just DI or piston.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26667 Steve Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:38:10 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26667 Personally I think whatever works. The gas pistons on AR-15 have their own set of problems such as carrier tilt. I think anybody is going to design a new gas piston system, but the issue is should the AR-15 use a piston. I used to be pro-piston, now I am neutral (with regards to the AR-15/M4/M16). I am sure the DoD will make the worse decision possible ;) Personally I think whatever works. The gas pistons on AR-15 have their own set of problems such as carrier tilt. I think anybody is going to design a new gas piston system, but the issue is should the AR-15 use a piston.

I used to be pro-piston, now I am neutral (with regards to the AR-15/M4/M16).

I am sure the DoD will make the worse decision possible ;)

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26661 Destroyer Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:18:55 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26661 lance, obviously not everyone has moved on. People on various posts (im not going to name names) are still fixated on the direct impingement design by looking at ways to improve them when it is a obsolete design. You also completely missed my previous posts supporting whatever design works the best (the fact is that the DI design doesn't work as well as other technology). As i previously said, my posts grind gears with AR15 fanboys but could care less. My intention is for the military to be equipped with the best rifle in the world to suit soldier's needs. The truth hurts, doesn't it? lance, obviously not everyone has moved on. People on various posts (im not going to name names) are still fixated on the direct impingement design by looking at ways to improve them when it is a obsolete design. You also completely missed my previous posts supporting whatever design works the best (the fact is that the DI design doesn’t work as well as other technology). As i previously said, my posts grind gears with AR15 fanboys but could care less. My intention is for the military to be equipped with the best rifle in the world to suit soldier’s needs. The truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26638 Lance Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:03:26 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26638 Destroyer you seem fixed on attacking a AR when ever it appears on this site. I know many have differnt opions on ARs but good greef every one has moved on past M-4 debate since the Pentagon has asked a M-4 upgrade. Destroyer you seem fixed on attacking a AR when ever it appears on this site. I know many have differnt opions on ARs but good greef every one has moved on past M-4 debate since the Pentagon has asked a M-4 upgrade.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-26627 Destroyer Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:22:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-26627 high temp alloy or not, the DI design still heats up the bolt and chamber, drying up the lubrication, increasing friction between the bolt and bolt carrier, and increasing wear on parts because of lack of lubrication. This video is further evidence damning direct impingement designs. high temp alloy or not, the DI design still heats up the bolt and chamber, drying up the lubrication, increasing friction between the bolt and bolt carrier, and increasing wear on parts because of lack of lubrication. This video is further evidence damning direct impingement designs.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25792 Lance Sun, 07 Feb 2010 03:07:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25792 I like your idea Tom ive never thought of that before. I like your idea Tom ive never thought of that before.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Tom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25778 Tom Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:10:18 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25778 of all the gas tubes out there.. who use`s a better quality high temp metal ? i have never seen this discussed before of all the gas tubes out there.. who use`s a better quality high temp metal ? i have never seen this discussed before

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Tom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25777 Tom Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:05:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25777 I`d like to see gas tubes made of High Temp Alloy`s I`d like to see gas tubes made of High Temp Alloy`s

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Redchrome http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25760 Redchrome Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:27:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25760 For those who want an empirical comparison between DI and piston designs, read the article here: http://www.pof-usa.com/articles/P416Torture.pdf A full-auto m4gery lasted 264 rounds on full auto (feeding from C-mags) before the gas tube burst. Bolt face got to 133F after only 264 rounds. A piston gun went 1036 rounds with the only problems being a bad magazine. Bolt face got to 122F at the end of all that. They did note that the DI gun's gas block was cooler; reaching 339F. The piston gun's block reached 697F. The more massive gas block on the piston gun took longer to dissipate heat. That said, a burst gas tube is a deadlined AR. It's not a binary failure either... As witnessed by the difference between 264 rounds to failure with one gun, and 911 rounds with another, and the failure progressively getting worse along that time; gas tube failures are dependent on rate of fire, lifetime heat cycles, storage & cleaning conditions, and other environmental factors. Sometimes they last a long time. Sometimes they don't. In any case, there seems to be some pretty firm evidence that piston guns are more reliable. For those who want an empirical comparison between DI and piston designs, read the article here:

http://www.pof-usa.com/articles/P416Torture.pdf

A full-auto m4gery lasted 264 rounds on full auto (feeding from C-mags) before the gas tube burst. Bolt face got to 133F after only 264 rounds.

A piston gun went 1036 rounds with the only problems being a bad magazine. Bolt face got to 122F at the end of all that.

They did note that the DI gun’s gas block was cooler; reaching 339F. The piston gun’s block reached 697F. The more massive gas block on the piston gun took longer to dissipate heat.

That said, a burst gas tube is a deadlined AR. It’s not a binary failure either… As witnessed by the difference between 264 rounds to failure with one gun, and 911 rounds with another, and the failure progressively getting worse along that time; gas tube failures are dependent on rate of fire, lifetime heat cycles, storage & cleaning conditions, and other environmental factors. Sometimes they last a long time. Sometimes they don’t. In any case, there seems to be some pretty firm evidence that piston guns are more reliable.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25736 Destroyer Sat, 06 Feb 2010 04:29:24 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25736 i don't have any problem with the HK 416 and believe it would serve the military fine, though i disagree with adopting another 5.56mm rifle. Perhaps a M4 with a heavier barrel, gas piston design, and 6.5 grendel upper would serve the military better. i don’t have any problem with the HK 416 and believe it would serve the military fine, though i disagree with adopting another 5.56mm rifle. Perhaps a M4 with a heavier barrel, gas piston design, and 6.5 grendel upper would serve the military better.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Tom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25709 Tom Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:22:14 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25709 Heavy barrels are better.. I would like to see this same test done with Colt`s piston system.. or other piston system`s out there.. That would answer every ones question`s.. Heavy barrels are better.. I would like to see this same test done with Colt`s piston system.. or other piston system`s out there.. That would answer every ones question`s..

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25708 Lance Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:17:50 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25708 @ Marsh The Army is doing just what you were telling us the Army should do. The marines are looking into the HK 416 for ther IAR many think its a way to adopt the 416 period. @ Marsh

The Army is doing just what you were telling us the Army should do. The marines are looking into the HK 416 for ther IAR many think its a way to adopt the 416 period.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Marsh http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25661 Marsh Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:30:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25661 It is a problem. Soldiers have complained about their M4s overheating and not working in firefights. When you're stationed in a base in the middle of enemy territory and there's only 12 of you and several hundred of the enemy you have to shoot a lot and quickly. Not all soldiers can maintain shot per minute discipline in order to prevent their guns from overheating. Heavy barrels are a must. They're more accurate too. The military needs to force Colt to update their design and put heavy thick barrels on their guns. Going to a piston system as well is debateable but I'd rather have a piston gun because they're easier to maintain and while the may not be magnitudes more reliable they're still more reliable on average. It's worth the extra weight and slightly slower target presentation as far as I'm concerned. It is a problem. Soldiers have complained about their M4s overheating and not working in firefights. When you’re stationed in a base in the middle of enemy territory and there’s only 12 of you and several hundred of the enemy you have to shoot a lot and quickly. Not all soldiers can maintain shot per minute discipline in order to prevent their guns from overheating. Heavy barrels are a must. They’re more accurate too. The military needs to force Colt to update their design and put heavy thick barrels on their guns. Going to a piston system as well is debateable but I’d rather have a piston gun because they’re easier to maintain and while the may not be magnitudes more reliable they’re still more reliable on average. It’s worth the extra weight and slightly slower target presentation as far as I’m concerned.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25601 Destroyer Fri, 05 Feb 2010 02:53:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25601 yes, even gas piston weapons do get hot. How can you use this excuse to justify the direct impingement design? gas piston designs keep most of the heat in the gas tube and behind the piston, away from where the bullets are fed and the action (which is where most of the malfunctions are caused). Direct impingement heats up the action and dries up the lubrication, which accelerates wear. Yes, this is a test that exceeds the purpose of the M4, though stress tests are invaluable to military arms. yes, even gas piston weapons do get hot. How can you use this excuse to justify the direct impingement design? gas piston designs keep most of the heat in the gas tube and behind the piston, away from where the bullets are fed and the action (which is where most of the malfunctions are caused). Direct impingement heats up the action and dries up the lubrication, which accelerates wear.

Yes, this is a test that exceeds the purpose of the M4, though stress tests are invaluable to military arms.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25486 Lance Thu, 04 Feb 2010 08:23:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25486 I agree with Jdun1911 look at it this way as well Charles E Kelly a WW2 hero won his C.M.H. with 2 BARs he shot his first one so many times it warped the Barrel and got too hot to touch nad almost the same to the second BAR. The BAR was ment to be shot on ful auto for long periods of time but even that had its limataions. The piston on them gets too hot to function. Same for a AK or M-1 the piston can only take so much punishment before amlfuntion and yes they happend to M-1s as well. Its a matter of useing the weapon beyound of whats its designed for its what as fault here. I agree with Jdun1911 look at it this way as well Charles E Kelly a WW2 hero won his C.M.H. with 2 BARs he shot his first one so many times it warped the Barrel and got too hot to touch nad almost the same to the second BAR. The BAR was ment to be shot on ful auto for long periods of time but even that had its limataions. The piston on them gets too hot to function. Same for a AK or M-1 the piston can only take so much punishment before amlfuntion and yes they happend to M-1s as well.

Its a matter of useing the weapon beyound of whats its designed for its what as fault here.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: Tom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25463 Tom Thu, 04 Feb 2010 02:41:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25463 What is the barrel Dia. of the M4 and M4A1 under the handguards ? What is the barrel Dia. of the M4 and M4A1 under the handguards ?

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/02/m4-carbine-torture-test/comment-page-1/#comment-25453 jdun1911 Thu, 04 Feb 2010 01:58:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=10856#comment-25453 The comments section pointed out that it was probably less then 700 rdns through the AK. It caught on fire on same region as the AR DI gun. The gas block is the hottest part of any auto rifle. You can't denied that piston doesn't generate extra heat by moving. To said that piston run cooler then DI guns is ridiculous. The comments section pointed out that it was probably less then 700 rdns through the AK. It caught on fire on same region as the AR DI gun.
The gas block is the hottest part of any auto rifle.

You can’t denied that piston doesn’t generate extra heat by moving. To said that piston run cooler then DI guns is ridiculous.

Please rate this comment: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0
]]>