[Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course
[ I am pleased to present this guest post written by Jonathan Sun. ]
A couple weekends ago, I participated in the Bullets and Vehicles course at Sig Sauer Academy in Epping, NH. I wanted to share my experiences during this course for those who might be interested in training there, or firearms training in general.
![3976950619 f8270e5eb7 [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/3976950619_f8270e5eb7.jpg "3976950619 f8270e5eb7 [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo")
My Background
I’ve had an interest in firearms since my teenage years, thanks to my father. Only more recently, I would say the last 4-5 years did my interest in training or competing grow. Training began with Sig Sauer Academy (formerly SigArms Academy). The impetus was that my first handgun was a Sig P229R and the facility was close enough where I thought trying out some of their training wouldn’t cost an arm and a leg. I’m not LE/MIL or a HSLD type, so this type of training is more academic in the sense that it would be something nice to know in case stuff hits the proverbial fan. Previous classes I had taken were:
- Basic Practical Handgun Skills
- Intermediate Handgun Skills
- Intermediate Concealed Carry
- Low Light Pistol Operator
- Close Quarters Pistol Operator
- Advanced Concealed Carry
- Basic Law and Threat Management
This path was recommended to me, while not being a new shooter, it definitely did help fine tune existing fundamentals and reinforce training techniques that they use at Sig. The Bullets and Vehicles course was designed to help expose myths surrounding how bullets behave around vehicles and to help give you a better chance at surviving a confrontation at or around a vehicle.
Morning Drills
This was an 8 hour 1 day course that started at 8:30A. It began with an in classroom meeting to go over the safety guidelines and introduce ourselves to the instructors. There were approximately 8 of us plus 3 visitors from South Korea. Two of the visitors worked for a South Korean gun magazine and the third was a South Korean SWAT member. From there we moved to the indoor range staging area and prepared to gear up. Those who did not have equipment were issued equipment from the armory. After equipping we proceeded to the outdoor range.
The drills began dry and as always the emphasis was on safety. The main thing we had to consider while doing these drills was drawing and not lasering ourselves and our neighbor ahead/behind/or to either side of us. The instructors had us run it dry from seated positions while simulating being seated in a vehicle. After they were confident that we moved on to live shooting drills.
Afternoon Drills
When we returned to class, the instructor, I’ll as SK, showed us a diagram explaining the tendency a bullet will have when shot into or out of a windshield. I say tendency because they emphasized that bullets around vehicles are extremely unpredictable and that the best chance you have is to understand how they tend to behave around them. Essentially when the bullet impacts the windshield, the portion of the bullet that impacts the windshield first, that is the direction the bullet will tend to travel. In the case of shooting outwards the bullet will tend to deflect upward and shooting into a vehicle it will tend to deflect downward. After class we moved to the donor Taurus sitting on the far right of the range. SK demonstrated a way to use the car antenna, assuming the older style wire antenna, as an improvised glass breaker and several dedicated pocket knife like breakers/seatbelt cutters.
![3976959859 0dae8c0e1a [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/3976959859_0dae8c0e1a.jpg "3976959859 0dae8c0e1a [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo")
Fighting from the Vehicle
We took turns taking shots through the windshield from the front passenger seat into a target downrange. The goal of this exercise was to show the angle and degree of deflection once the bullet impacts the windshield. Basically, the amount of deflection in this case, with 9mm and the Taurus windshield, was approximately 7-8 inches. The target we were shooting at was about 5 feet away from the front of the vehicle. About 50-60% of the 9mm rounds exited and struck the target, the other 40-50% of the time, the bullet fragmented before exiting, with small pieces striking the target unpredictably.
The second drill during this phase, they had is sit in the driver’s seat, drawing without lasering ourselves and engage targets from the driver’s side window. Simulating or enhancing stress they had an instructor jumping up and down in the door jamb of the rear passenger side to make aiming more difficult. The big thing they wanted us to take away from shooting within the vehicle was that it was not a great place to be if you needed to engage a threat, and you should make your way out of the vehicle to better cover.
Vehicle as Cover
When using the vehicle for cover, they wanted to emphasize not crowding the vehicle. Crowding the vehicle can make you more likely to get hit from ricochets over the top of the hood or trunk. They had us attempt it, and quite to my surprise it was not difficult to get skipped bullets on target within 1-2 shots. The amount of deflection from the skipped bullets was such that, if you were using a hood/trunk for cover and were sucked up against it, you would very likely get hit if you took a peek. If you were farther away from the vehicle the chance the bullets would deflect over your head increases. The other suggestion besides the obvious engine block was to use the wheels/wheel wells. The thought process behind this being that you had a steel or aluminum wheel and behind that the disc brakes as some intermediate cover. To simulate this, they had us take turns engaging a steel target, while laying prone from underneath the vehicle.
![3977716364 d2d308aacf [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/3977716364_d2d308aacf.jpg "3977716364 d2d308aacf [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo")
From a Moving Vehicle
We then proceeded to engage multiple targets while in a moving vehicle. SK drove his Tundra diagonally across the outdoor range and had students take turns sitting in the passenger seat engaging multiple stationary targets while the vehicle was in motion. The point of these exercises was that it is not a great situation to be in and that the best case scenario is that any amount of ammo you’re sending downrange will at least keep heads down if you’re unable to neutralize the threat.
Various Calibers
For the last part of the range exercise, they had us engage the vehicle with various calibers to see how effective/ineffective each round was. We tried .22, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP,.357Mag,.44Mag,.223,.308,.338Lapua and finally .50cal. The results were such that someone reasonably armed for CCW, 9mm appeared to be the most well rounded for usage around a vehicle. The interesting to note, the .40S&W (what I shoot) and .45ACP were poor at traveling through the windshield, they tended to fragment catastrophically. They also tended not to travel through the vehicle, when shot door to door. The lack of over travel may or may not be something you may want depending on whether the threat is inside/outside of the vehicle.
![3977717636 b638752251 [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/3977717636_b638752251.jpg "3977717636 b638752251 [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo")
Concluding
This class was as engaging as any other of their classes, possibly more so due to the amount of myths and conjecture about how bullets will behave around vehicles. The instructors are extremely attentive and knowledgeable. While being experienced, they have a demeanor that makes it easy to ask questions and they invite it. The facilities have reactive plates so you’ll get immediate feedback when you’re on target or not, which is great for tuning or fine tuning your training. The round count for the class was just under 300, which is about average for a one day class. I highly recommend professional firearms training for anyone, regardless of where it may be, as there are a lot of things to consider that you might not realize if you plan on CCW.
If you have any questions for me or about any of the courses above, please feel free to email me, or ask in the comments below.
![jonaddr tfb [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/jonaddr-tfb.png "jonaddr tfb [Guest Post] Sig Academy Bullets and Vehicles Course photo")
Contact Info for:
SIG SAUER Academy
233 Exeter Road
Epping, NH 03042
Phone: 603-679-2003
Fax: 603-679-1639
Email: sigsaueracademy@sigsauer.com
Web: www.sigsaueracademy.com
The driving and shooting was interesting. The first pass (they made 3-4) was very difficult, we were trying to hit steel plates, I want to say about 15 yards away (at the start and by the end they were 3 yards away and they drove us forward diagonally across the range). The second pass seemed a little easier as the targets were closer (going in reverse diagonally now), and after getting a chance to adjust your aim to the vehicle speed.
Hey in the class I took we had some ammo let at the end. I suggested that I wish we could have done more shooting at the vehicle. Wish granted; we (class of 15) got to do “the gauntlet” simulation at the end; about 500 rounds in 45 seconds was pretty neat. These guys can be very serious and informal and very safe all at the same time.
I learned that from a moving vehicle (extreme shooting on the move) you need a weapon will a well defined breakpoint to do well. An undefined breakpoint meant you werent sure when the round would go off. At that speed in a confined space there was no way to hold on the target for long. So I decided then and there that the Sig P250′s long travel, reset and undefined breakpoint was very handicapping.
My big big complaint with most academy classes indoors (B&V is outdoors) is the cost per round for the frangible; at the end of 09 they were stocking it at 42 cents a round for 9mm ouch. In the fall of 08 it was .24 cents a round. Thats a 75% increase. I told them they need to get into some forward ammo contract lock ins with a supplier because it became clear I could afford the tuition or the ammo but not both. I really support lead free projectile and primer in ammo but the ammo companies have gotten into crazy price gouging. They seem to think that frangible should be as expensive as duty ammo because I guess they feel that the governments will pay whatever they ask; what is happening is the gubermints are just cutting back on training. There were a lot of crickets at the academy in the fall 09 except for 101 and 102 courses for all the newbies.
Just to clarify, frangible rounds were used for demonstration purposes, to show us what would happen following that, we used standard FMJ rounds which exhibited the fragmenting described in the article. In many of the cases shooting outward, the jacketing had seperated from the bullet once impacting the windshield, with the fragments of lead exiting. After shooting we observed the jacketing fragments remaining on the dashboard.
the fact the frangible rounds were used would explain most of the inconsistencies noted when shooting through the windshield.
Okay.
Thanks for the answers.
Vak: I should rephrase the “you can bring whatever you want…” part, you can bring whatever you like, as long as you have or Sig is able to provide frangible ammo for.
Vak: you can bring whatever sidearm you’d like, but practicality speaking it would be ideal if it is what you normally shoot (and are familiar with) or plan to CCW with. That said if you wanted to try one of their handguns, they will let you borrow them. The only requisite is that you clean it afterwards
The driving and shooting was interesting. The first pass (they made 3-4) was very difficult, we were trying to hit steel plates, I want to say about 15 yards away (at the start and by the end they were 3 yards away and they drove us forward diagonally across the range). The second pass seemed a little easier as the targets were closer (going in reverse diagonally now), and after getting a chance to adjust your aim to the vehicle speed.
They did mention the dust and unfortunately we didn’t have masks, but our exposure was only for a couple rounds at a time.
Tony: I checked out the Buick O’Truth and it looks pretty accurate compared to what we experienced. I think the Taurus windshield was at more of an angle than the Buick (the Buick windshield seemed more upright). The only thing I am not sure of is/was the amount of deflection between the 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP I didn’t take note of what happened when we shot, but the Buick O’truth results make sense.
Jon, does your experience in the course correspond with The Buick O’ Truth jdun1911 linked to?
Shooting from inside a car… hope they wore masks. Glass dust congeals in the lungs.
This sounds absolutely great !
I’ve gotta do this. Shooting from a car while someone else drive have always been one of my shooting fansaies (blame hollywood and video games, not me).
(by the way, stupid question, but can you use any gun you want for this course. Let’s say I come to this course with a mousesgun or a revolver, what are they going to do ? Kick me out, laugh at me, give me another gun (most likely a sig) ?)
Spud: I haven’t ever gone hunting either, but I suspect my experience would be identical to yours! You know of all the courses I’ve taken, a majority (here at least) have been civilians from pretty much all walks of life.
Steve: If you were inside shooting out, the bullet would typically travel upward. So from the outside if you were shooting into the vehicle the bullet would tend to travel at a downward angle. Basically the angle it hits the windshield, that is the direction it will tend to travel.
Jon, cool, just checking.
Jon, so if you shoot into a windscreen, the bullet will be deflected at a downward angle into the car … is that right? I always thought it would be deflected upwards.
That’s good to know Jon, I’m always afraid that if I went on one of these courses as a civilian it would be full of ‘shouty’ people taking themselves far too seriously.
When I first went shooting at the range with a friend of mine, he immediately put my worries at ease by telling me that ‘You’re not a proper shooter until you’ve done an accidental discharge and received a vicious dressing down from the Range Officer’.
This was in stark contrast to the advice I received when I went hunting for the first (and last) time in which I was told ‘If you shoot yourself out here, there is just not enough physical time to get you to the hospital’.
Both pieces of advice have stuck with me for decades.
BTW I only went hunting once because I found it incredibly dull, I spent most of the day soaking wet and they wouldn’t let me smoke a cigarette.
Spiff: that was indeed a Glock 21 in that shooters hands. I believe it was his duty weapon so we tried not to hold it against him.
Thanks for the comments! These classes are addictive (it doesn’t help they give discounts if you sign up for a future class during your class), and always a great learning experience.
Someone: I honestly don’t remember if we did, for some reason it’s not standing out in my mind and I wrote the article a bit after I took the course. Sort of ironically, I shot 357Sig for the first time at the Defensive Shotgun class I took over this past weekend but it was at a conventional (ie boring) reactive plate.
Tony: I wish I had paid more attention (we covered a lot of stuff in a short span of time and I didn’t take notes). The impression I got was that ball ammo had more of a tendency to stay together than the JHP. Again I want to reiterate that it had the tendency to stay together but not all the time. The JHP we shot, when it did fragment, was so inconsistent, I wouldn’t want to use JHP around a car if I knew (there’s the catch) I would be shooting through vehicular glass. Didn’t use anything with a meplat from what I recall. The thing I noticed but didn’t mention originally, the jacketing from a lot of the rounds fired, ended up on the dashboard while most of the lead traveled through the windshield.
SpudGun: I highly doubt you would get thrown out, the instructors have pretty good senses of humor so as long as everyone is safe you’d be GTG.
Nice to see a Taurus being some use in a firearms training class, shame it’s the four wheeled variety.
(Sorry Steve)
As someone who has shot up a few cars with buckshot, 9mm and 7.62 Combloc, it’s amazing just how much punishment a modern vehicle can take.
One thing I did learn is that a lot of the bullets would travel very easily through both sets of doors, not like in the movies at all.
I’d like to go on one of these courses, but I’d probably get thrown off for cracking jokes, especially if the other participants had moustaches. I don’t know what it is with firearms courses and hairy upper lips, but the two can’t seem to seperate.
Anyways, I enjoyed your post and glad you had a good time on the course, it does look like a lot of fun.
Car window test.
The Box O’ Truth – The Buick O’ Truth
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
I can’t imagine how much fun (and eye opening) that must have been!
Jon,
Great review of an exciting class. Makes me wish I lived in New Hampshire.
That sure looks like a Glock in the car drivers hands!
Spiff
Thank you for this very interesting post!
One thing that I remain curious about is the ammunition used – especially with the .45 as I’ve got a few of those myself.
Did you test penetration and deflection with hollow point ammunition only – and if so, did you use more than one brand and was there any significant difference? What about FMJ – traditional ball ammo? Something with a meplat? I realize that ammunition testing wasn’t the point of the course, but hey – I figured it can’t hurt to ask. 
Excellent article, I’ve forwarded it on to a few friends who will enjoy it also.
I’m somewhat surprised they didn’t have you shoot .357 SIG… partially because you were training at Sig Academy, and it would seem perfect for the course you were taking (.357 SIG has a reputation as a great penetrator)