Comments on: [Guest Post] You Don’t Say? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Cary Harrison http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-43394 Cary Harrison Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:56:35 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-43394 For Mosin-Nagant, the complication is that it's two surnames from different national origins. Mosin was a Russian designer and Nagant was a Belgian. Because they are proper names, the most correct pronunciation would be to use the respective linguistic pronunciations, so we get: "MOE-seen Na-GAHN" Léon Nagant's name is practically a lesson in French letter sounds. It uses the French hard "g" (because it comes before the letter "a" - if it came before "i", "e", or "y" it would be pronounced with a soft "g", like in "mirage"). That means it sounds pretty much like the English hard "g", as in "goat". The ending "t" is silent, since there is no "e" following it. The "a" in "Nagant" is pronounced somewhere between the English "a" and "o". Basically, it's like the second English "a" in "animal". Two other Russian ones that come up are "Tokarev" and "Makarov". What lots of people say: "TOKE-arev" What's right: "TOH-a-rev" The "o" is actually more like it is in the English words "on" or "not". The other Russian one is What lots of people say: "MAK-uh-rov" What's right: "Muh-KAR-ov" Many Russian names accent the second or middle syllable, with "Tokarev" up there being an exception (of which there are a confusingly large number!). The poster who mentioned "Stolichnaya" earlier got a good example of this. Everybody in the US says "STOLIK-naya", but the correct pronunciation is more like "Sto-LEECH-nai-ya". Source: My old Russian friend, armed forces engineer, and vodka-drinking friend Gennady. For Mosin-Nagant, the complication is that it’s two surnames from different national origins. Mosin was a Russian designer and Nagant was a Belgian. Because they are proper names, the most correct pronunciation would be to use the respective linguistic pronunciations, so we get:

“MOE-seen Na-GAHN”

Léon Nagant’s name is practically a lesson in French letter sounds. It uses the French hard “g” (because it comes before the letter “a” – if it came before “i”, “e”, or “y” it would be pronounced with a soft “g”, like in “mirage”). That means it sounds pretty much like the English hard “g”, as in “goat”. The ending “t” is silent, since there is no “e” following it. The “a” in “Nagant” is pronounced somewhere between the English “a” and “o”. Basically, it’s like the second English “a” in “animal”.

Two other Russian ones that come up are “Tokarev” and “Makarov”.

What lots of people say: “TOKE-arev”
What’s right: “TOH-a-rev”

The “o” is actually more like it is in the English words “on” or “not”. The other Russian one is

What lots of people say: “MAK-uh-rov”
What’s right: “Muh-KAR-ov”

Many Russian names accent the second or middle syllable, with “Tokarev” up there being an exception (of which there are a confusingly large number!). The poster who mentioned “Stolichnaya” earlier got a good example of this. Everybody in the US says “STOLIK-naya”, but the correct pronunciation is more like “Sto-LEECH-nai-ya”.

Source: My old Russian friend, armed forces engineer, and vodka-drinking friend Gennady.

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]]> By: makeitshort http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-38619 makeitshort Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:55:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-38619 of course ´ch´ exists in english. you guys can do this, i know! listen to darth vader´s famous breathing. that´s exactly this sound. now try to imitate him, it´s really simple ch....ch....ch no kidding! lol. of course ´ch´ exists in english. you guys can do this, i know! listen to darth vader´s famous breathing. that´s exactly this sound. now try to imitate him, it´s really simple ch….ch….ch no kidding!

lol.

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]]> By: Hej http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-35370 Hej Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:41:09 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-35370 Why is it mispronounced? It’s Swedish. Swedish isn't that hard -_- Hus = House Qvarn is old Swedish, now spelled Kvarn = Mill Synonyms (Swedish) for "kvarn": Mölla See any resemblance? Why is it mispronounced? It’s Swedish.

Swedish isn’t that hard -_-
Hus = House
Qvarn is old Swedish, now spelled Kvarn = Mill
Synonyms (Swedish) for “kvarn”: Mölla
See any resemblance?

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]]> By: Sporting Shooters Association of New Zealand http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-18765 Sporting Shooters Association of New Zealand Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:28:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-18765 <strong>You Don't Say...</strong> Useful information at the Firearm Blog - You Don't Say. How to say all those German names...... You Don’t Say…

Useful information at the Firearm Blog – You Don’t Say. How to say all those German names……

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17638 Matt Groom Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:50:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17638 Many thanks to the native speakers who have corrected my enunciation. This has been a learning experience for us all. I must say that I was WAY OFF on more than one name! But I think the main thing I've learned is that even if you use the proper form of the name, it's possible that nobody will know what you're talking about! "Val-ta? What's a Val-ta? Oh! You mean Wall-thur!" The audio recordings are a big improvement. On some of the corrections, the way I read them is the way I try to say them, so I believe that the words I use to describe the sounds may be interpreted differently. Like SeanN's example with the J sound in "Legere", I do say it as a J-sound, and would read it that way, but I that's just me. I can see how the way I wrote it would be "Grrrer" and not "J'air", so his is definitely a better description. There are certain things that completely mystify me about foreign languages, like Clodboy's example of Umlauts. I had no idea what an Umlaut was. If it sounds like a different letter, why spell it with that letter? How do you type that? It's like that AE symbol that you see a lot in Gallic, Danish, and Norwegian texts. What the hell is that thing?! I'm not touchin' that! At the end of the day, we're all working from what we know and what we're familiar with. Lacking knowledge of foreign languages, I have to rely on my familars who do. I doubt that very many gun nuts have enough functioning knowledge of German, English, Danish, Belgian, Swiss, Italian, Russian, Hungarian, Czech, Norwegian, Finnish, and Swedish to say all of the words and names that a commonly encountered accurately enough to satisfy everyone. This is globalization at it's finest. The interchange of ideas, language, and products for the betterment of us all and I thank everyone who has or will participate in this discussion. -Matt Groom Many thanks to the native speakers who have corrected my enunciation. This has been a learning experience for us all. I must say that I was WAY OFF on more than one name! But I think the main thing I’ve learned is that even if you use the proper form of the name, it’s possible that nobody will know what you’re talking about! “Val-ta? What’s a Val-ta? Oh! You mean Wall-thur!”

The audio recordings are a big improvement. On some of the corrections, the way I read them is the way I try to say them, so I believe that the words I use to describe the sounds may be interpreted differently. Like SeanN’s example with the J sound in “Legere”, I do say it as a J-sound, and would read it that way, but I that’s just me. I can see how the way I wrote it would be “Grrrer” and not “J’air”, so his is definitely a better description.

There are certain things that completely mystify me about foreign languages, like Clodboy’s example of Umlauts. I had no idea what an Umlaut was. If it sounds like a different letter, why spell it with that letter? How do you type that? It’s like that AE symbol that you see a lot in Gallic, Danish, and Norwegian texts. What the hell is that thing?! I’m not touchin’ that!

At the end of the day, we’re all working from what we know and what we’re familiar with. Lacking knowledge of foreign languages, I have to rely on my familars who do. I doubt that very many gun nuts have enough functioning knowledge of German, English, Danish, Belgian, Swiss, Italian, Russian, Hungarian, Czech, Norwegian, Finnish, and Swedish to say all of the words and names that a commonly encountered accurately enough to satisfy everyone. This is globalization at it’s finest. The interchange of ideas, language, and products for the betterment of us all and I thank everyone who has or will participate in this discussion.

-Matt Groom

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17607 Steve Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:20:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17607 SpudGun, LOL SpudGun, LOL

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]]> By: SpudGun http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17600 SpudGun Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:25:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17600 Thanks Roy, who said Germans don't have a sense of humour? ;) Now if you could do a Frenchman impersonating a medievel Scottish warrior, a Scotsman impersonating an Egyptian Samurai and an American impersonating a Russian mercenary, then I'd be impressed. Thanks Roy, who said Germans don’t have a sense of humour? ;)

Now if you could do a Frenchman impersonating a medievel Scottish warrior, a Scotsman impersonating an Egyptian Samurai and an American impersonating a Russian mercenary, then I’d be impressed.

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]]> By: Clodboy http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17582 Clodboy Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:40:21 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17582 The "u" in "Fusil Automatique" is pronounced like the "ü" in "Anschütz" (which Stefan so kindly recorded himself speaking). Sort of like a slightly "whistled" cross between the English "u" and "e". Speaking of which, I blame the heavy metal scene for giving English-speakers the false impression that the German Umlaut is there for purely cosmetic reasons. The German "ö" is pronounced like the "u" in "burn", while the "ä" is pronounced like the "a" in "bad". If you don't have a "ü" key or the software won't recognize umlauts, the ä,ö and ü are replaced by "ae", "oe" and "ue" respectively. Merely replacing the Umlaut with the non-umlaut letter will often give rather comedic results: ex.: "Selbstlade-Büchse/Buechse" = "self-loading hunting rifle" "Selbstlade-Buchse" = "self-loading bushing" Then again, even H&K themselves probably wouldn't want to lose too many words about the SL8 ;) The “u” in “Fusil Automatique” is pronounced like the “ü” in “Anschütz” (which Stefan so kindly recorded himself speaking). Sort of like a slightly “whistled” cross between the English “u” and “e”.

Speaking of which, I blame the heavy metal scene for giving English-speakers the false impression that the German Umlaut is there for purely cosmetic reasons.
The German “ö” is pronounced like the “u” in “burn”, while the “ä” is pronounced like the “a” in “bad”.
If you don’t have a “ü” key or the software won’t recognize umlauts, the ä,ö and ü are replaced by “ae”, “oe” and “ue” respectively. Merely replacing the Umlaut with the non-umlaut letter will often give rather comedic results:
ex.:
“Selbstlade-Büchse/Buechse” = “self-loading hunting rifle”
“Selbstlade-Buchse” = “self-loading bushing”
Then again, even H&K themselves probably wouldn’t want to lose too many words about the SL8 ;)

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]]> By: Roy http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17580 Roy Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:36:18 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17580 SpudGun, I'll work on my Brit-doing-a-German-accent impression and report back ;) BTW, a bit of trivia: In the German dubbing of Die Hard, Gruber's first name is not Hans but Jack. Go figure... I guess the 'evil German' bit doesn't work equally well everywhere. Ok, let's get back on topic, that HK P7 is a beautiful piece of hardware, isn't it? SpudGun,
I’ll work on my Brit-doing-a-German-accent impression and report back ;)

BTW, a bit of trivia: In the German dubbing of Die Hard, Gruber’s first name is not Hans but Jack. Go figure… I guess the ‘evil German’ bit doesn’t work equally well everywhere.

Ok, let’s get back on topic, that HK P7 is a beautiful piece of hardware, isn’t it?

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]]> By: Roy http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17579 Roy Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:23:51 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17579 Matt, wrt H&K, I believe you just relayed truthfully whatever you were told. I think the issue is that the reps you talked to were (likely) Americans and, more importantly, were working for H&K USA. That means either they did not know the 'correct' pronunciation or they used the official one adopted by/for the American subsidiary of H&K. After all, if you're trying to sell a product in an English-speaking market, it helps if your customers are physically able to pronounce the brand name. Other examples of brands that are 'officially mispronounced for marketing reasons' are Michelin and Hitachi. However, we should keep in mind that these are names of real persons we're talking about here, and those, unlike geographic names, have no translations. I find it borderline disrespectful if a company deliberately mispronounces the name of one of its founders and would rather see them adopt H&K as their official English name (works for KFC), though admittedly, I don't really know what their official policies are. And it really is a business decision. Sometimes I think one reason for Glock's amazing success is that it is so easy to pronounce ;) Matt, wrt H&K, I believe you just relayed truthfully whatever you were told. I think the issue is that the reps you talked to were (likely) Americans and, more importantly, were working for H&K USA. That means either they did not know the ‘correct’ pronunciation or they used the official one adopted by/for the American subsidiary of H&K. After all, if you’re trying to sell a product in an English-speaking market, it helps if your customers are physically able to pronounce the brand name. Other examples of brands that are ‘officially mispronounced for marketing reasons’ are Michelin and Hitachi.
However, we should keep in mind that these are names of real persons we’re talking about here, and those, unlike geographic names, have no translations. I find it borderline disrespectful if a company deliberately mispronounces the name of one of its founders and would rather see them adopt H&K as their official English name (works for KFC), though admittedly, I don’t really know what their official policies are. And it really is a business decision.

Sometimes I think one reason for Glock’s amazing success is that it is so easy to pronounce ;)

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]]> By: Snackeater http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17572 Snackeater Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:09:22 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17572 Great article. How about "minimi"? As in the M249 squad automatic weapon? I've always wondered about that one. Great article. How about “minimi”? As in the M249 squad automatic weapon? I’ve always wondered about that one.

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]]> By: Some Finnish Speaker http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17557 Some Finnish Speaker Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:01:58 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17557 Sako = SAH-koh Tikka = TEEK-kah (with a pause between the k's) Vihta-Vuori = VEEHH-tah VOO-oh-ree (and, no, you won't get the H sound right, even if you speak Swedish, which is entirely unrelated) Lapua = LAH-poo-ah The only one of those that has an "H" sound in it is "Vihta"; in the others, it is meant only to distinguish "SAH like saw" from "SAY like say". In Finnish, the accent is always on the first syllable, and every letter is pronounced, even double consonants and double vowels. And, while we're on the subject: Nokia = NOH-kee-ah Sauna = SAU-nah (the SAU is like the first part of "sound") Karhu = KAR-hoo with a briefly rolled r (the word means "bear") Tunturi = TOON-too-ree (it's where the Lapps and reindeer live, something like "hilly tundra") Iitala = EEEE-tah-lah Sako = SAH-koh
Tikka = TEEK-kah (with a pause between the k’s)
Vihta-Vuori = VEEHH-tah VOO-oh-ree (and, no, you won’t get the H sound right, even if you speak Swedish, which is entirely unrelated)
Lapua = LAH-poo-ah

The only one of those that has an “H” sound in it is “Vihta”; in the others, it is meant only to distinguish “SAH like saw” from “SAY like say”. In Finnish, the accent is always on the first syllable, and every letter is pronounced, even double consonants and double vowels.

And, while we’re on the subject:

Nokia = NOH-kee-ah
Sauna = SAU-nah (the SAU is like the first part of “sound”)
Karhu = KAR-hoo with a briefly rolled r (the word means “bear”)
Tunturi = TOON-too-ree (it’s where the Lapps and reindeer live, something like “hilly tundra”)
Iitala = EEEE-tah-lah

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17555 Anonymous Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:34:08 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17555 Not Russian, but I watch a lot of Russkie war movies (surely a sign of legitimacy, no?) and know a little Russian Saiga = Сайга = sigh-GAH SVD = СВД = Снайперская винтовка Драгунова = SNI-pear-sky-ah veen-TOV-kah drah-gu-NO-va The Mosin-Nagant? Not sure, but I think the Mosin part is pronounced MO-seen (I believe the common form is Mosin rifle = винтовка мосина = ven-TOV-kah MO-seen-ah (?)) The real problem with pronouncing Russian words is that the getting the accent correct is essential, and it'll shift around depending on any number of reasons, few of which I understand. Not Russian, but I watch a lot of Russkie war movies (surely a sign of legitimacy, no?) and know a little Russian

Saiga = Сайга = sigh-GAH

SVD = СВД = Снайперская винтовка Драгунова = SNI-pear-sky-ah veen-TOV-kah drah-gu-NO-va

The Mosin-Nagant? Not sure, but I think the Mosin part is pronounced MO-seen (I believe the common form is Mosin rifle = винтовка мосина = ven-TOV-kah MO-seen-ah (?))

The real problem with pronouncing Russian words is that the getting the accent correct is essential, and it’ll shift around depending on any number of reasons, few of which I understand.

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]]> By: Dom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17550 Dom Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:42:14 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17550 Ah, ya know - like Matt, I'm a guy who values accuracy in all its forms. So I should point out that the word "reframe" is really "refrain." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain Great post, and thanks for the audio! Ah, ya know – like Matt, I’m a guy who values accuracy in all its forms. So I should point out that the word “reframe” is really “refrain.”

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrain

Great post, and thanks for the audio!

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17549 Steve Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:40:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17549 Any Frenchmen (or women) want to contribute a recording of "Lebel" (as in 8mm Lebel), Fusil Automatique Legere (as in FN FAL) and Fusil d'Assaut de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Étienne (as in FAMAS). Any Russians want to have a crack at a recording of Mosin Nagant, Saiga and Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova (SVD Dragunov rifle). And if anyone from another country wants to contribute recordings of the names of locally produced arms, please do so. My email is on the contacts webpage (link is at the top on the page). Any Frenchmen (or women) want to contribute a recording of “Lebel” (as in 8mm Lebel), Fusil Automatique Legere (as in FN FAL) and Fusil d’Assaut de la Manufacture d’Armes de Saint-Étienne (as in FAMAS).

Any Russians want to have a crack at a recording of Mosin Nagant, Saiga and Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova (SVD Dragunov rifle).

And if anyone from another country wants to contribute recordings of the names of locally produced arms, please do so.

My email is on the contacts webpage (link is at the top on the page).

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17548 Steve Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:30:30 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17548 SpudGun, thanks for digging that up. SpudGun, thanks for digging that up.

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]]> By: SpudGun http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17546 SpudGun Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:17:35 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17546 Oh and can you get the German posters to record the following - 'I will count to three...there will not be a four.' :) Oh and can you get the German posters to record the following -

‘I will count to three…there will not be a four.’

:)

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]]> By: SpudGun http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17545 SpudGun Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:14:11 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17545 Found this post by jcmiller from a little while ago - “VLTOR is the ancient Roman spelling for the Latin word ULTOR, meaning “Avenger”. This word was commonly used to describe the Roman God of War, Mars.” The University of Hong Kong says that “the letter U was often represented by V because it was much quicker and easier for a stonemason to make two straight strokes than to reproduce the round base of the letter.” So I suppose you pronounce it Ultor. Found this post by jcmiller from a little while ago -

“VLTOR is the ancient Roman spelling for the Latin word ULTOR, meaning “Avenger”. This word was commonly used to describe the Roman God of War, Mars.”

The University of Hong Kong says that “the letter U was often represented by V because it was much quicker and easier for a stonemason to make two straight strokes than to reproduce the round base of the letter.”

So I suppose you pronounce it Ultor.

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]]> By: SeanN http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17543 SeanN Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:10:25 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17543 matt: Legere = lej-air. flow the "j" sound into the "air" sound. of all the places for french class to come in handy... matt:

Legere = lej-air. flow the “j” sound into the “air” sound. of all the places for french class to come in handy…

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]]> By: Retardo http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/02/guest-post-you-don%e2%80%99t-say/comment-page-1/#comment-17538 Retardo Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:51:22 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8931#comment-17538 "Guh-RAND", yeah, in the last week I've had two different Old Guys gently correct me on that one. One of them also referred to his Winchester 1894 as a "CAR-been". The other was in the Marines when Garands were still being issued, so I'll go along with his version. However, Wikipedia <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand" rel="nofollow">seems to claim that John C. Garand preferred "GAR-and"</a> (end of the second paragraph), if I'm interpreting their phonetic symbols right. “Guh-RAND”, yeah, in the last week I’ve had two different Old Guys gently correct me on that one. One of them also referred to his Winchester 1894 as a “CAR-been”. The other was in the Marines when Garands were still being issued, so I’ll go along with his version.

However, Wikipedia seems to claim that John C. Garand preferred “GAR-and” (end of the second paragraph), if I’m interpreting their phonetic symbols right.

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