Comments on: Army still looking got a “subcompact” gun http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Michael Oppenheimer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-24888 Michael Oppenheimer Sat, 30 Jan 2010 08:05:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-24888 we do not pay 500 dollars for a hammer that is put in the buget to hide the money that we send to the C.I.A. and other black ops and spec ops and other thing that we do not want you and other to know about,the army is put up 10 million to come up with a replacement for the m-16 and it well be the 6.5 or the 6.8 and bullpup rifle that comes from the army so that all I know at this time thank you for you time and your input. Mic we do not pay 500 dollars for a hammer that is put in the buget to hide the money that we send to the C.I.A. and other black ops and spec ops and other thing that we do not want you and other to know about,the army is put up 10 million to come up with a replacement for the m-16 and it well be the 6.5 or the 6.8 and bullpup rifle that comes from the army so that all I know at this time thank you for you time and your input. Mic

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]]> By: Edward http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17474 Edward Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:21:18 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17474 I loved the PDR concept when I saw it, but Magpul explained over at ARFCOM (AR15.com, right?) that it's not a priority to R&D when the biggest potential customer hasn't enough interest to call back. I loved the PDR concept when I saw it, but Magpul explained over at ARFCOM (AR15.com, right?) that it’s not a priority to R&D when the biggest potential customer hasn’t enough interest to call back.

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]]> By: Komrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17323 Komrad Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:23:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17323 How about Calico? They already have high capacity (100 rounds) 9mm carbines and pistols. They use helical mags that can be left loaded with the spring disconnected (perfect for leaving in the truck for extended periods), are ambidextrous for less issues with logistics, have speed loaders that allow reloading of magazines in just a few seconds, and have .22lr counterparts for cheap training. To top it all off, they are made in the USA and sold for the low price of only $750. Using steel core rounds even our truck drivers can hit hard. A short barreled version with a folding stock could function as a carbine or a somewhat bulky pistol. It would also give this small company a big boost, maybe a big enough boost for them to make .40 and .45 caliber versions. Helical mags show potential for compact, high capacity weapons. How about Calico? They already have high capacity (100 rounds) 9mm carbines and pistols. They use helical mags that can be left loaded with the spring disconnected (perfect for leaving in the truck for extended periods), are ambidextrous for less issues with logistics, have speed loaders that allow reloading of magazines in just a few seconds, and have .22lr counterparts for cheap training. To top it all off, they are made in the USA and sold for the low price of only $750. Using steel core rounds even our truck drivers can hit hard. A short barreled version with a folding stock could function as a carbine or a somewhat bulky pistol. It would also give this small company a big boost, maybe a big enough boost for them to make .40 and .45 caliber versions. Helical mags show potential for compact, high capacity weapons.

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]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17314 Lance Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:49:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17314 I dont think 5.7 is the awnser. The round never cought on in the Police world because the round has over penatration issues and lacks knockdown power. A MP-5 with ktel rounds would be the best idea. The army already uses 9mm rounds and has a surplus of MP-5s left over frm when Army SOCOM replaced MP-5s with M-4s. Just have Winchester make the Ktel round for the army and add 1913 rails to the subguns to add optics. Im also not a Bullpup fan. There cumbersom heavy and ackward to shoot. The AUG or L-85 already have issues with shooting out to 200 yards. Why buy a weapon that isnt working for the combat your fighting, which is long range firefights. I dont think 5.7 is the awnser. The round never cought on in the Police world because the round has over penatration issues and lacks knockdown power. A MP-5 with ktel rounds would be the best idea. The army already uses 9mm rounds and has a surplus of MP-5s left over frm when Army SOCOM replaced MP-5s with M-4s. Just have Winchester make the Ktel round for the army and add 1913 rails to the subguns to add optics.

Im also not a Bullpup fan. There cumbersom heavy and ackward to shoot. The AUG or L-85 already have issues with shooting out to 200 yards. Why buy a weapon that isnt working for the combat your fighting, which is long range firefights.

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17311 Matt Groom Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:26:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17311 "As for hearing damage, since when has the army given a shit about hearing? Just issue them with earplugs." 'Wait! Stop shooting! I have to put my ear plugs in! Thanks. Okay, I'm ready!' The military will not give you disability for hearing loss unless it's significant, like you need hearing aids at age 22. So the policy is "You went deaf? That's your problem." The issue with short barrels is these are the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine and are intended for non-shooters, who's primary duties involve something other than gunplay. Truck drivers, medics, pilots, and the like. People who have other things to do when the shooting starts but might still need to shoot back when the chips are down. The rub then isn't recoil, or weight, or accuracy, or even the size of the weapon, it's the flinching that's associated with the muzzle blast. Those tiny Surefire suppressors that Steve blogged about a few weeks ago would be nearly ideal for a really short barrel, but those AND a PDW length cartridge would be even better, and the cans would last longer. They don't need to be silent, just to keep you from going deaf. “As for hearing damage, since when has the army given a shit about hearing? Just issue them with earplugs.”

‘Wait! Stop shooting! I have to put my ear plugs in! Thanks. Okay, I’m ready!’

The military will not give you disability for hearing loss unless it’s significant, like you need hearing aids at age 22. So the policy is “You went deaf? That’s your problem.”

The issue with short barrels is these are the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine and are intended for non-shooters, who’s primary duties involve something other than gunplay. Truck drivers, medics, pilots, and the like. People who have other things to do when the shooting starts but might still need to shoot back when the chips are down. The rub then isn’t recoil, or weight, or accuracy, or even the size of the weapon, it’s the flinching that’s associated with the muzzle blast.

Those tiny Surefire suppressors that Steve blogged about a few weeks ago would be nearly ideal for a really short barrel, but those AND a PDW length cartridge would be even better, and the cans would last longer. They don’t need to be silent, just to keep you from going deaf.

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]]> By: Jeff M http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17309 Jeff M Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:47:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17309 Hey Steve, I agree with the 9mm PDW. The Brugger & Thomas TP9 would make a good gun for lots of folks in urban situations against soft targets. I'd say the machine pistols are good out to 100 yards. And I think the RFB should be the standard issue carbine. That gun is so frickin awesome, I got mine a few months back, only complaint is that it's a little bit complicated to break down and clean, and it probably heats up quicker than an M4, but the power and compactness is as good as it gets. Could probably hit something at 900 yards with a little luck. Hey Steve,

I agree with the 9mm PDW. The Brugger & Thomas TP9 would make a good gun for lots of folks in urban situations against soft targets. I’d say the machine pistols are good out to 100 yards.

And I think the RFB should be the standard issue carbine. That gun is so frickin awesome, I got mine a few months back, only complaint is that it’s a little bit complicated to break down and clean, and it probably heats up quicker than an M4, but the power and compactness is as good as it gets. Could probably hit something at 900 yards with a little luck.

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]]> By: Vak http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17307 Vak Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:09:13 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17307 @Brad Don't even think of the Famas. It's an heavily flawed weapon : it have to use one and only one kind of 5.56 that is NOT compatible with standard 5.56 NATO ammo for some weird reason, it's actually quite sensitive to dust and foulings (because of it's overtrly complicated action) and it just lacks the now common modern features (ie : rails everywhere). Sure, it looks nice, and this is the kind of weapon that everyone likes in videogames thanks to its rate of fire or for the shooting range for its decent accuracy, but in real life, all french special forces try to dump it aside and use AKs and ARs. @Brad

Don’t even think of the Famas. It’s an heavily flawed weapon : it have to use one and only one kind of 5.56 that is NOT compatible with standard 5.56 NATO ammo for some weird reason, it’s actually quite sensitive to dust and foulings (because of it’s overtrly complicated action) and it just lacks the now common modern features (ie : rails everywhere).

Sure, it looks nice, and this is the kind of weapon that everyone likes in videogames thanks to its rate of fire or for the shooting range for its decent accuracy, but in real life, all french special forces try to dump it aside and use AKs and ARs.

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]]> By: prodromos http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17300 prodromos Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:53:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17300 Talking bullbup , an actual carbine with a barrel of 13" , weight 6,7pds with reflex , and a total length less than 24" . The Micro Tavor-II . Prooven in battle . Or a slightly bigger and heavier AUG like someone allready said. Dont talk about new calibers . The army will not change or even adopt a new round for years to come . Think of a 5.56X45 NATO "Sub compact" . Talking bullbup , an actual carbine with a barrel of 13″ , weight 6,7pds with reflex , and a total length less than 24″ . The Micro Tavor-II . Prooven in battle .
Or a slightly bigger and heavier AUG like someone allready said.

Dont talk about new calibers . The army will not change or even adopt a new round for years to come . Think of a 5.56X45 NATO “Sub compact” .

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]]> By: Mike http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17299 Mike Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:09:56 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17299 Let me guess? Is this a proposal to (re)invent the submachine gun? Golly gosh, what goes around comes around! Let me guess? Is this a proposal to (re)invent the submachine gun? Golly gosh, what goes around comes around!

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]]> By: Brad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17298 Brad Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:25:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17298 Carl was on the right track To meet the Army requirements, of sling like a subgun but fire like a rifle, the only way with 5.56 is to use a bullpup. If the Army insists on using the AR platform with stubby 10 inch barrels, then a caliber change is necessary such as .357 SIG. How has the shorty version of the FAMAS worked out? Carl was on the right track

To meet the Army requirements, of sling like a subgun but fire like a rifle, the only way with 5.56 is to use a bullpup. If the Army insists on using the AR platform with stubby 10 inch barrels, then a caliber change is necessary such as .357 SIG.

How has the shorty version of the FAMAS worked out?

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]]> By: seeker_two http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17297 seeker_two Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:12:40 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17297 Another vote for the P90 here....you could even solve the ammo supply problem by replacing the M9 with the FN Five-Seven pistol....if you feel comfortable with the 5.7 load.... Another vote for the P90 here….you could even solve the ammo supply problem by replacing the M9 with the FN Five-Seven pistol….if you feel comfortable with the 5.7 load….

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]]> By: subby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17295 subby Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:55:21 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17295 The RFB is compact enough but its too heavy at 8.1 pounds and service people who already can't shoot for shit, will look retarded shooting 7.62mm. The kel tec SU-16D is the smallest compact carbine, but there are also many other options (ACR, SCAR). As for hearing damage, since when has the army given a shit about hearing? Just issue them with earplugs. Military won't agree to introducing a new calibre and 9mm isn't able to penetrate body armor. Too bad theres no compact, light bullpup in 5.56mm around. (FN FS2000 is heavy and bulky as shite.) Kel tec is releasing a new 5.56 bullpup modeled after the RFB in a couple of years. They should just wait for that. Or better yet work with them to develop a weapon. Most likely we'll get a retarded pipsqueak M4 lwith a super short barrel. Don't forget your earplugs. The RFB is compact enough but its too heavy at 8.1 pounds and service people who already can’t shoot for shit, will look retarded shooting 7.62mm.

The kel tec SU-16D is the smallest compact carbine, but there are also many other options (ACR, SCAR). As for hearing damage, since when has the army given a shit about hearing? Just issue them with earplugs.

Military won’t agree to introducing a new calibre and 9mm isn’t able to penetrate body armor.

Too bad theres no compact, light bullpup in 5.56mm around. (FN FS2000 is heavy and bulky as shite.)

Kel tec is releasing a new 5.56 bullpup modeled after the RFB in a couple of years. They should just wait for that. Or better yet work with them to develop a weapon.

Most likely we’ll get a retarded pipsqueak M4 lwith a super short barrel. Don’t forget your earplugs.

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]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17294 Lance Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:23:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17294 Sorry about the bad spelling was in a hurry. You dont need a micro rifle. A XM-177 without the long flashhider would be fine. But a M-4 is fine for noe combat users. $ inches is not that much longer and that wahts a carbines job is. A weapon none riflemen use. Sorry about the bad spelling was in a hurry. You dont need a micro rifle. A XM-177 without the long flashhider would be fine. But a M-4 is fine for noe combat users. $ inches is not that much longer and that wahts a carbines job is. A weapon none riflemen use.

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]]> By: Brian http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17292 Brian Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:58:49 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17292 Lance, turn on your spell-check for God's sake! Lance, turn on your spell-check for God’s sake!

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]]> By: prodromos http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17291 prodromos Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:56:19 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17291 The kac pdw , the xcr-micro , and others like them in size but chambered 5,56X45 are the answer . The kac pdw , the xcr-micro , and others like them in size but chambered 5,56X45 are the answer .

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]]> By: Brian http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17289 Brian Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:46:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17289 Forgot the link: http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw1.html Official Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Wl2hvHleU Unofficial Youtube Futureweapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Wl2hvHleU Forgot the link:
http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw1.html
Official Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Wl2hvHleU
Unofficial Youtube Futureweapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Wl2hvHleU

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]]> By: Brian http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17288 Brian Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:22:19 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17288 The KAC PDW is the American equal of the Krinkov. So what if it adds another caliber. REMFs and vehicle operators need something they can deploy quickly but still not get in the way of their primary duties. RFB? Get serious. Full sized M16? In a truck cab? The KAC PDW deserves a hard look. The KAC PDW is the American equal of the Krinkov. So what if it adds another caliber. REMFs and vehicle operators need something they can deploy quickly but still not get in the way of their primary duties. RFB? Get serious. Full sized M16? In a truck cab? The KAC PDW deserves a hard look.

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]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17275 Lance Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:16:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17275 I dont know why the Army is crying and moening over it. In the Marine Corps Truck drivers or none infantrymen either are given a M-4 or a M-16A2. Yeah its heavy to pack around but when the enemy attacks its sure handy. Is the Army full of whiners who cry at a heavy load? Every other service including the Marines are pleased and are keeping there weapons for at least 10 year in the future. I think Col Tamilo is getting money from other gun makers and is makeing up mosty army whineing over M-4s. The Pentigon is such a load of crap. If every servy shows 89-90% happines with a gun. DO NOT REPLACE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do you think Steve. I dont know why the Army is crying and moening over it. In the Marine Corps Truck drivers or none infantrymen either are given a M-4 or a M-16A2. Yeah its heavy to pack around but when the enemy attacks its sure handy. Is the Army full of whiners who cry at a heavy load? Every other service including the Marines are pleased and are keeping there weapons for at least 10 year in the future.

I think Col Tamilo is getting money from other gun makers and is makeing up mosty army whineing over M-4s. The Pentigon is such a load of crap.

If every servy shows 89-90% happines with a gun. DO NOT REPLACE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you think Steve.

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]]> By: prodromos http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17268 prodromos Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:32:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17268 And the lethality of 5,56 from short barrels , i think this matter is going to be adressed with the new socom rounds . And the lethality of 5,56 from short barrels , i think this matter is going to be adressed with the new socom rounds .

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]]> By: prodromos http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/28/army-still-looking-got-a-subcompact-gun/comment-page-1/#comment-17267 prodromos Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:30:40 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8886#comment-17267 Actualy you have to count out pistol calibers with pistol ballistics . (9mm-40s&w-45ACPetc) . The "sub-compact" must be able to launch aimed fire to 200m . So we are talking pistol calibers with rifle ballistics (5,7X28 , 4,6X30 , 224boz , 5,56X30 , 6,5cbz etc) Talking it one step further , i think that the army wants specificaly a very short barrelled rifle in 5,56X45 NATO . That is why i think they dont call it PDW(mp-7) or MG(mp-5) or MP(glock-18) . And by very short barrelled i mean >10" . I believe that that is why they call it "sub compact" and not carbine (14,5") or sub carbine(<14") . To be more precise , i believe that they have a model like the ROBARM-XCR , G-36C , or a colt M4 with a 8-9" barrel in their minds (there are many more in this category) . They could even consider a model without stock like the one in the XM-8 family (allthow i dont know how an AR type pistol could deliver aimed fire at 200m) Actualy you have to count out pistol calibers with pistol ballistics . (9mm-40s&w-45ACPetc) .
The “sub-compact” must be able to launch aimed fire to 200m .
So we are talking pistol calibers with rifle ballistics (5,7X28 , 4,6X30 , 224boz , 5,56X30 , 6,5cbz etc)

Talking it one step further , i think that the army wants specificaly a very short barrelled rifle in 5,56X45 NATO . That is why i think they dont call it PDW(mp-7) or MG(mp-5) or MP(glock-18) . And by very short barrelled i mean >10″ . I believe that that is why they call it “sub compact” and not carbine (14,5″) or sub carbine(<14") .
To be more precise , i believe that they have a model like the ROBARM-XCR , G-36C , or a colt M4 with a 8-9" barrel in their minds (there are many more in this category) .
They could even consider a model without stock like the one in the XM-8 family (allthow i dont know how an AR type pistol could deliver aimed fire at 200m)

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