Comments on: Why is Remington developing another 6.5mm cartridge for the ACR? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:24:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Lawrence http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-80321 Lawrence Mon, 12 Dec 2011 01:08:57 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-80321 The .303 British, or 7.7x56mmR is by far the best round in terms of ballistics and range and trumps all other rounds in terms of accuracy. The only problem is the recoil oh yeah fire in short controlled bursts, enemy insurgent down. The .303 British, or 7.7x56mmR is by far the best round in terms of ballistics and range and trumps all other rounds in terms of accuracy. The only problem is the recoil oh yeah fire in short controlled bursts, enemy insurgent down.

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]]> By: charles222 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-73805 charles222 Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:33:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-73805 I just don’t understand the whole 6.5 series of development. Essentially, with the advent of body armor, and it’s increasing use, .223 doesn’t cut it. Basically we’re talking about an arms race between bullets and body armor. Why fool around with 6.5/6.8 (whatever), and just go back to a .30 bullet (with known ballistics), with an improved case and propellants. ~~ 5.56mm NATO is an excellent armor-penetrator, actually. DOJ won't rate body armor against it. I just don’t understand the whole 6.5 series of development. Essentially, with the advent of body armor, and it’s increasing use, .223 doesn’t cut it. Basically we’re talking about an arms race between bullets and body armor. Why fool around with 6.5/6.8 (whatever), and just go back to a .30 bullet (with known ballistics), with an improved case and propellants.

~~

5.56mm NATO is an excellent armor-penetrator, actually. DOJ won’t rate body armor against it.

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]]> By: Shugarshack http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-67528 Shugarshack Sat, 16 Jul 2011 20:24:13 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-67528 I have been hooked on 6.5 since Killing my first deer with a 6.5x54. I have a Les Baer chambered for the Grendel and love it. When the 450 bushmaster came out I was hoping some one would neck it down to 6.5, call it a 6.5 30 rar or what ever sounds like an excellent idea to me. I have heard nothing of anyone wildcatting it yet but I'm sure it has been done. The AR platform would be perfect for this round a little more case capacity over the Grendel sounds like a dandy deer round rifle/carbine combination. I don't understand the the negativity towards new cartridge development if you don't like it don't buy it the market will take care of it's self. The 5.56 NATO isn't cutting it at extended ranges and sometimes not up close, the 308 is a wonderful round but so is the 3006, it was shortened for a reason. Humping extra rounds should be made as easy as possible and those rounds should be as effective as possible. Just saying? I have been hooked on 6.5 since Killing my first deer with a 6.5×54. I have a Les Baer chambered for the Grendel and love it. When the 450 bushmaster came out I was hoping some one would neck it down to 6.5, call it a 6.5 30 rar or what ever sounds like an excellent idea to me. I have heard nothing of anyone wildcatting it yet but I’m sure it has been done. The AR platform would be perfect for this round a little more case capacity over the Grendel sounds like a dandy deer round rifle/carbine combination. I don’t understand the the negativity towards new cartridge development if you don’t like it don’t buy it the market will take care of it’s self. The 5.56 NATO isn’t cutting it at extended ranges and sometimes not up close, the 308 is a wonderful round but so is the 3006, it was shortened for a reason. Humping extra rounds should be made as easy as possible and those rounds should be as effective as possible. Just saying?

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]]> By: ByronOdmon http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-67070 ByronOdmon Mon, 11 Jul 2011 04:19:32 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-67070 why not just use the .243 instead of the 6.5 grendel, the .556, the 7.62 all of them! it beats the .556 in range and power, beats the 7.62 in recoil and velocity and range of bullet weight.It has almost as much range as the 7.62. i know it is too big for the ar-15/m4 but would it not be worth using in a lightened ar-10 or some other slightly tweaked ar type platform! i see no end to the possible uses for the .243. it uses the same case as the 7.62 nato so that saves the military from changing everything to make the swap! mainly it comes down to i want an ar with a .243 bullet coming out the end damn it! haha why not just use the .243 instead of the 6.5 grendel, the .556, the 7.62 all of them! it beats the .556 in range and power, beats the 7.62 in recoil and velocity and range of bullet weight.It has almost as much range as the 7.62. i know it is too big for the ar-15/m4 but would it not be worth using in a lightened ar-10 or some other slightly tweaked ar type platform! i see no end to the possible uses for the .243. it uses the same case as the 7.62 nato so that saves the military from changing everything to make the swap! mainly it comes down to i want an ar with a .243 bullet coming out the end damn it! haha

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]]> By: twilson http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-43657 twilson Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:18:43 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-43657 Seems the Grendel has been upstaged by the the "new", but compatible, .264 LBC-AR. Maybe this is the round that we'll see Remington introduce? Seems the Grendel has been upstaged by the the “new”, but compatible, .264 LBC-AR. Maybe this is the round that we’ll see Remington introduce?

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]]> By: Destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-23883 Destroyer Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:00:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-23883 For those that think the 6.5 Grendel is silly, try lugging around your precious 308 in the mountains of afghanistan...nuff said (the 6.5 Grendel has better ballistic properties anyways) I think remington is being foolish by blowing off existing cartridges to invent their own. Don't reinvent the wheel! For those that think the 6.5 Grendel is silly, try lugging around your precious 308 in the mountains of afghanistan…nuff said (the 6.5 Grendel has better ballistic properties anyways)

I think remington is being foolish by blowing off existing cartridges to invent their own. Don’t reinvent the wheel!

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]]> By: martin http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-18739 martin Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:13:40 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-18739 Dave: "Good for Remington! The intellectual property and licensing requirements of the 6.5 Gr****l are ridiculous." From that statement Dave, it seems you have a copy of the IP & licensing. Many people have wanted to see that for years. Time to 'put up' Dave: “Good for Remington! The intellectual property and licensing requirements of the 6.5 Gr****l are ridiculous.”

From that statement Dave, it seems you have a copy of the IP & licensing. Many people have wanted to see that for years.

Time to ‘put up’

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]]> By: Bill Waites http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-17556 Bill Waites Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:27:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-17556 Anyone who thinks dealing with Bill Alexander and Alexander Arms to license the Grendel isn't paying much attention. Small shops have done it, big shops have done it, (Les Baer, JT) big companies (notably Wolf, Hornady, Sabre) have done it. The little guys have said the fees aren't onerous, the big companies obviously don't think they are either. There is a lot of stuff out there that would be libelous if printed, but very little of it is true. And now, with Hornady on board, I suspect we'll see a lot of neat things happening with ammunition, which has been a weak spot in the Grendel world. Anyone who thinks dealing with Bill Alexander and Alexander Arms to license the Grendel isn’t paying much attention.

Small shops have done it, big shops have done it, (Les Baer, JT) big companies (notably Wolf, Hornady, Sabre) have done it. The little guys have said the fees aren’t onerous, the big companies obviously don’t think they are either.

There is a lot of stuff out there that would be libelous if printed, but very little of it is true.

And now, with Hornady on board, I suspect we’ll see a lot of neat things happening with ammunition, which has been a weak spot in the Grendel world.

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]]> By: Alan http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-17426 Alan Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:51:16 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-17426 Will be a shame if Remington does (yet another) proprietary cartridge for it's 6.5mm offering. Many, many advantages to the Grendel: - Excellent ballistics in reasonable bullet weights for the AR platform. 6.8 can argue muzzle velocity, but the grendel is close there, and wins once you get downrange. - Sub-moa accuracy is easy in the AR platform. Case design closely matched to the optimum bullet weight/design/pressure for the AR platform. - Mags widely available (C-product, I have about a dozen of them) - Already loaded by Wolf, black hills, and now Hornady - Reloaders can use commonly available 7.62x39 brass - could use common bolt with 7.62x39 if co-designed Seems like the soviet's had no problem with belt-fed MG's using the case angles on the parent 7.62x39 case... Licensing is reportedly reasonable, several mfg's have done it, and based on the difference between their Grendel & 6.8 offerings can't be much. IE: the license is not adding much to the cost of the rifle/ammo/mags. With Remington they'd have enough buying power it should be no-issue. I agonized very hard over 6.8spc, Grendel, and some of the .30 variants. A year later I'm a hard-core Grendel fan, and am converting my 5.56 carbines over as well. I watch the arguing over the 6.8 chambers, specs, etc and feel like I dodged a bullet (no pun intended). Remington, don't shoot yourself in the foot again! Will be a shame if Remington does (yet another) proprietary cartridge for it’s 6.5mm offering.

Many, many advantages to the Grendel:

- Excellent ballistics in reasonable bullet weights for the AR platform. 6.8 can argue muzzle velocity, but the grendel is close there, and wins once you get downrange.
- Sub-moa accuracy is easy in the AR platform. Case design closely matched to the optimum bullet weight/design/pressure for the AR platform.
- Mags widely available (C-product, I have about a dozen of them)
- Already loaded by Wolf, black hills, and now Hornady
- Reloaders can use commonly available 7.62×39 brass
- could use common bolt with 7.62×39 if co-designed

Seems like the soviet’s had no problem with belt-fed MG’s using the case angles on the parent 7.62×39 case…

Licensing is reportedly reasonable, several mfg’s have done it, and based on the difference between their Grendel & 6.8 offerings can’t be much. IE: the license is not adding much to the cost of the rifle/ammo/mags. With Remington they’d have enough buying power it should be no-issue.

I agonized very hard over 6.8spc, Grendel, and some of the .30 variants. A year later I’m a hard-core Grendel fan, and am converting my 5.56 carbines over as well. I watch the arguing over the 6.8 chambers, specs, etc and feel like I dodged a bullet (no pun intended).

Remington, don’t shoot yourself in the foot again!

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]]> By: Confederate Yankee http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-17303 Confederate Yankee Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:40:06 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-17303 <strong>SOCOM SCAR/ Remington ACR Updates...</strong> The FN SCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) that has been deployed in small numbers with U.S. Special Forces will finish an initial deployment in December. Jane's is reporting that a much larger follow-on order of 15,000 5.56 SCAR-L(i... SOCOM SCAR/ Remington ACR Updates…

The FN SCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) that has been deployed in small numbers with U.S. Special Forces will finish an initial deployment in December. Jane’s is reporting that a much larger follow-on order of 15,000 5.56 SCAR-L(i…

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]]> By: Heath http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16716 Heath Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:10:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16716 I look forward to seeing what they come up with. Hopefully they will release it to the civilians in the AR market. I look forward to seeing what they come up with. Hopefully they will release it to the civilians in the AR market.

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]]> By: atek3 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16693 atek3 Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:08:43 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16693 Sorry, but necking down the 6.8 SPC or 30RAR to 6.5mm doesn't make much sense. The former, because the longer case dimension of the SPC vs. the Grendel (43 vs. 39mm) means that useful weight 6.5 bullets (105-123 gr) are too long to fit in AR length magazines. The latter, because the 30AR case is so fat it single stacks in AR magazines, so 15 rounds would be a "big" magazine. 6.5-30RAR COULD be interesting in an NRA OTC Space Gun, but if you go that route, why not go for the already developed and commercially available 6mm AR Turbo. Just my two cents. Sorry, but necking down the 6.8 SPC or 30RAR to 6.5mm doesn’t make much sense.

The former, because the longer case dimension of the SPC vs. the Grendel (43 vs. 39mm) means that useful weight 6.5 bullets (105-123 gr) are too long to fit in AR length magazines.

The latter, because the 30AR case is so fat it single stacks in AR magazines, so 15 rounds would be a “big” magazine.

6.5-30RAR COULD be interesting in an NRA OTC Space Gun, but if you go that route, why not go for the already developed and commercially available 6mm AR Turbo.

Just my two cents.

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]]> By: rm http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16554 rm Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:36:21 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16554 @latdarkearth The main problem is what Dave said. The mag issue is not a real one.. ..as seen here.. http://www.65grendel.com/65g_25rdmags.jpg -- Alexander Arms also offers a 26-round stainless spring steel magazine, complete with an anti-tilt follower, a chrome silicon spring, and a black teflon coating. --- Twenty six rounds that perform well enough to threaten 308 fans seems good to me! @latdarkearth
The main problem is what Dave said.
The mag issue is not a real one..
..as seen here..

http://www.65grendel.com/65g_25rdmags.jpg
–
Alexander Arms also offers a 26-round stainless spring steel magazine, complete with an anti-tilt follower, a chrome silicon spring, and a black teflon coating.
—

Twenty six rounds that perform well enough to threaten 308 fans seems good to me!

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]]> By: latdarkearth@gmail.com http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16533 latdarkearth@gmail.com Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:52:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16533 Nobody's mentioned that the Grendel case doesn't properly doublestack in any derivative of the standard AR magazine? The grendel tries to do too much with too little. Too much case/powder volume for too little magwell area. They're neat for range guns and some kinds of competition, but a combat gun with those or any better ballistics is going to need a different magwell design. Nobody’s mentioned that the Grendel case doesn’t properly doublestack in any derivative of the standard AR magazine? The grendel tries to do too much with too little. Too much case/powder volume for too little magwell area. They’re neat for range guns and some kinds of competition, but a combat gun with those or any better ballistics is going to need a different magwell design.

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]]> By: Brad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16514 Brad Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:45:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16514 Makes me wonder how much hair-pulling and squabbling would have been prevented if the original M-1 rifle had just been chambered for the contemporary .250 Savage cartridge. How many 'ideal' cartridge concepts have never been attempted if the .250 Savage had gained a foothold as the dominant American rifle cartridge of WWII? An M-1 designed for the .250 Savage might have been lighter than the M-1903 rifle, and eliminated the perceived need for the M-1 carbine and the .30 Carbine cartridge. I could see a .250 Savage chambered FAL becoming the post-WWII NATO standard weapon which could actually have been controllable firing full-auto. That could have short-circuited the .223 cartridge and the AR-15. Makes me wonder how much hair-pulling and squabbling would have been prevented if the original M-1 rifle had just been chambered for the contemporary .250 Savage cartridge. How many ‘ideal’ cartridge concepts have never been attempted if the .250 Savage had gained a foothold as the dominant American rifle cartridge of WWII?

An M-1 designed for the .250 Savage might have been lighter than the M-1903 rifle, and eliminated the perceived need for the M-1 carbine and the .30 Carbine cartridge.

I could see a .250 Savage chambered FAL becoming the post-WWII NATO standard weapon which could actually have been controllable firing full-auto. That could have short-circuited the .223 cartridge and the AR-15.

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]]> By: Dave http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16483 Dave Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:37:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16483 Good for Remington! The intellectual property and licensing requirements of the 6.5 Gr****l are ridiculous. I can't imagine Remington bending over for Bill Alexander. More folks need to begin ignoring him immediately. Good for Remington! The intellectual property and licensing requirements of the 6.5 Gr****l are ridiculous. I can’t imagine Remington bending over for Bill Alexander. More folks need to begin ignoring him immediately.

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]]> By: Martin http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16479 Martin Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:05:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16479 RM I'm still with TOM on this one. Modern combat is a <500yd exercise, and all of the 6mm family's improvements at ranges that are not relevant. Just looking at the case size, I don't see how you could carry more. It may have better penetration numbers, for now, but don't think that won't take long correct. It might make a good round for a special purpose weapon, but I doubt any of these rounds will hit the mainstream. RM

I’m still with TOM on this one. Modern combat is a <500yd exercise, and all of the 6mm family's improvements at ranges that are not relevant. Just looking at the case size, I don't see how you could carry more. It may have better penetration numbers, for now, but don't think that won't take long correct.

It might make a good round for a special purpose weapon, but I doubt any of these rounds will hit the mainstream.

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]]> By: Vitor http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16475 Vitor Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:00:30 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16475 Actually the 6.5mm is a great sweet spot, where it bullet doesnt need to be very heavy to have a great BC, nor extremely fast to reach far away (less recoil and barrel wear). The 7.62mm is far from being a sweet spot, a 120grain 6.5 has better BC than a 175grain 7.62mm. And Tom, soldiers are concerned about recoil and how much ammunition they can carry and how often they need to change the barrel. Actually the 6.5mm is a great sweet spot, where it bullet doesnt need to be very heavy to have a great BC, nor extremely fast to reach far away (less recoil and barrel wear). The 7.62mm is far from being a sweet spot, a 120grain 6.5 has better BC than a 175grain 7.62mm.

And Tom, soldiers are concerned about recoil and how much ammunition they can carry and how often they need to change the barrel.

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]]> By: rm http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16459 rm Sat, 17 Oct 2009 07:06:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16459 Tom you are welcome to your opinion but it is strange to see you pointing out the advantages of the 6xx and dismissing them as capabilities you are not interested in! You left out the better resistance to wind drift and the slightly flatter trajectory..any others? Lots of folks are interested in rounds that have all those advantages. ;-) The 6.5xx are too good to be useful? ;-) Tom you are welcome to your opinion but it is strange to see you pointing out the advantages of the 6xx and dismissing them as capabilities you are not interested in! You left out the better resistance to wind drift and the slightly flatter trajectory..any others?
Lots of folks are interested in rounds that have all those advantages. ;-)
The 6.5xx are too good to be useful? ;-)

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]]> By: Tom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/17/why-is-remington-developing-another-6-5mm-cartridge-for-the-acr/comment-page-1/#comment-16456 Tom Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:38:21 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-16456 I think 6.8, 6.5, 5.56 rifles are kind of silly. I'm not concerned with recoil because none of my rifles are fully automatic, and I like to take time to aim, even with semi-automatics, I think I'll keep shooing 7.62x51mm for now so I can be sure whatever needs to be dead, ends up dead. People are always like "Oh goodness look at the 6.5's energy retention at 1000 yards! it's as good as the thirty!" Yeah, except I'm never going shoot anything that I need to kill at 1000' more like 400 tops. 200 yards is even long. Not to mention the cost and availability of high quality 7.62x51mm. Sure 6-7mm rounds let you carry more ammunition and have a quick follow up shot. However I don't have to carry more than 50 ever, and it's not like I can't do that .338 Magnum let alone 7.62x51mm. I don't need 100 rounds, not even for defense against humans, not even in crazy SHTF scenarios. Maybe we should all be cambering in 5.8x42mm in case the Chinese invade? Rrriiiggghhttt. I think 6.8, 6.5, 5.56 rifles are kind of silly.

I’m not concerned with recoil because none of my rifles are fully automatic, and I like to take time to aim, even with semi-automatics, I think I’ll keep shooing 7.62x51mm for now so I can be sure whatever needs to be dead, ends up dead.

People are always like “Oh goodness look at the 6.5′s energy retention at 1000 yards! it’s as good as the thirty!”

Yeah, except I’m never going shoot anything that I need to kill at 1000′ more like 400 tops. 200 yards is even long.

Not to mention the cost and availability of high quality 7.62x51mm.

Sure 6-7mm rounds let you carry more ammunition and have a quick follow up shot. However I don’t have to carry more than 50 ever, and it’s not like I can’t do that .338 Magnum let alone 7.62x51mm. I don’t need 100 rounds, not even for defense against humans, not even in crazy SHTF scenarios.

Maybe we should all be cambering in 5.8x42mm in case the Chinese invade? Rrriiiggghhttt.

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