Comments on: More reports on M4 limitations. Do the Marines have the right idea? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:24:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: 101abn http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-77124 101abn Sun, 13 Nov 2011 04:06:16 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-77124 Understand I am talking history here. I always made sure my fire team in Vietnam kept the M16s on semi. Auto was "panic" mode. It was not that we saw a lot of our targets, but my reasoning was, why empty a 20 rd magazine on one spot? In semi mode, well spaced fire on target area was more effective. The "hose" effect most likely prevented any heat problems. Those first M16s had problems enough. I understand outnumbered and outgunned, but, keeping up a high rate of fire, direct and cover, is just as possible on semi. A dedicated auto weapon is much better otherwise. Put a selector on an infantry weapon and it will be overused, and the weapon will fail. Understand I am talking history here. I always made sure my fire team in Vietnam kept the M16s on semi. Auto was “panic” mode. It was not that we saw a lot of our targets, but my reasoning was, why empty a 20 rd magazine on one spot? In semi mode, well spaced fire on target area was more effective. The “hose” effect most likely prevented any heat problems. Those first M16s had problems enough. I understand outnumbered and outgunned, but, keeping up a high rate of fire, direct and cover, is just as possible on semi. A dedicated auto weapon is much better otherwise. Put a selector on an infantry weapon and it will be overused, and the weapon will fail.

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]]> By: destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-23796 destroyer Sat, 16 Jan 2010 18:59:40 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-23796 The M16/M4 is not the best assault rifle in the world. The reason why the US military hasn't replaced it is because they are waiting for a significant improvement in technology (whatever that means). In my opinion, the G36 is a fine rifle and those supposed "jamming problems" experienced in afghanistan are just blog BS with no verification whatsoever. Similar to the SIG rifle series. do weapons jam? absolutely. Is the M16/M4 some wonder weapon that is the best in the world? no. Are there better replacements out there? yes. The M16/M4 is not the best assault rifle in the world. The reason why the US military hasn’t replaced it is because they are waiting for a significant improvement in technology (whatever that means). In my opinion, the G36 is a fine rifle and those supposed “jamming problems” experienced in afghanistan are just blog BS with no verification whatsoever. Similar to the SIG rifle series.

do weapons jam? absolutely. Is the M16/M4 some wonder weapon that is the best in the world? no. Are there better replacements out there? yes.

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]]> By: Windy Wilson http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-17223 Windy Wilson Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:51:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-17223 Umm, when it comes to fighting and the tools for fighting, the only time I can think the Marines were even close to wrong was when they initially didn't want the M-1 Garand at Guadalcanal. And there was a strong argument for the Marine's postion at the time. Umm, when it comes to fighting and the tools for fighting, the only time I can think the Marines were even close to wrong was when they initially didn’t want the M-1 Garand at Guadalcanal. And there was a strong argument for the Marine’s postion at the time.

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]]> By: Bobby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16572 Bobby Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:53:53 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16572 Carrier tilt wont happen with LWRC, Ruger, or Adam Arms Systems. Granted you need a different carrier. Carrier tilt wont happen with LWRC, Ruger, or Adam Arms Systems. Granted you need a different carrier.

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]]> By: Witmann http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16522 Witmann Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:28:12 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16522 I've put about 100 rounds out of a 7.62 HK G3 in about a minute. It got pretty hot but it still worked okay! I’ve put about 100 rounds out of a 7.62 HK G3 in about a minute. It got pretty hot but it still worked okay!

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]]> By: Leethal http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16360 Leethal Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:19:51 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16360 I've two words for the piston pushers: carrier tilt. I’ve two words for the piston pushers: carrier tilt.

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]]> By: Bobby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16269 Bobby Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:11:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16269 ''I absolutley agree with Bobby about a transition to LWRCI M6A2s and M6A4s in 6.8mm SPC. However, I don’t think a transition to a .40 would solve the M9s short comings, because if 9mm is the equivalent of .38 then .40 wouldn’t make that much of a difference. I would propose the USP45.'' If you propose a .45 then lets go back to 1911s (Springfield Armory Operator) or Glock 21. I stress Glock. Here's why: High magazine capacity. Cheap. The most reliable and durable pistol ever. IMO. Accurate. Super ergonomic. More accessories. Light. Easy to maintain. USP design is great but not the best. My main gripes: Too heavy. Not enough rounds in magazine. Not enough assessories. Expensive as hell. More bulky than even a Glock. Also... In my honest opinion I think the AR-15 DI platform isn't the best in the world. It is just the stepping stone for the best Assault Rifle platform. Piston AR-15s in higher calibers are the best IMO. I've put my M6A2 through a carbine course multiple times. No failure with quality parts and ammunition. ”I absolutley agree with Bobby about a transition to LWRCI M6A2s and M6A4s in 6.8mm SPC. However, I don’t think a transition to a .40 would solve the M9s short comings, because if 9mm is the equivalent of .38 then .40 wouldn’t make that much of a difference. I would propose the USP45.”

If you propose a .45 then lets go back to 1911s (Springfield Armory Operator) or Glock 21.

I stress Glock. Here’s why:

High magazine capacity.
Cheap.
The most reliable and durable pistol ever. IMO.
Accurate.
Super ergonomic.
More accessories.
Light.
Easy to maintain.

USP design is great but not the best.

My main gripes:

Too heavy.
Not enough rounds in magazine.
Not enough assessories.
Expensive as hell.
More bulky than even a Glock.

Also…

In my honest opinion I think the AR-15 DI platform isn’t the best in the world. It is just the stepping stone for the best Assault Rifle platform.

Piston AR-15s in higher calibers are the best IMO.

I’ve put my M6A2 through a carbine course multiple times.

No failure with quality parts and ammunition.

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]]> By: Casey http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16241 Casey Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:28:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16241 "direct impingement gas system used in (the M16/M4 family of rifles)" I only notice these things after the fact. “direct impingement gas system used in (the M16/M4 family of rifles)”
I only notice these things after the fact.

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]]> By: Casey http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16240 Casey Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:25:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16240 For Lance, I would like to make it clear that I did not propose a replacement rifle in 5.56mm for the M16/M4. I proposed a 6.8mm, and yes you have a point. Any weapon can jam, but for Lance and jdun1911, my post about "hell" is relative to the amount of abuse other weapons (including ARs) can take compared to the M16/M4. For jdun1911, I would agree that the AR design has the potential to become the best on the battlefield. The AR is certainly the most versitile and accurate assault weapon on the battlefield, but the reliability issues apparent with the direct impingement gas system used in and the lack of kinetic energy delivered by the 5.56mm round has to be addressed. There are American companys that have addressed and solved both of these issues, and have taken the AR design to the next level of its evolutionary process. For Lance, I would like to make it clear that I did not propose a replacement rifle in 5.56mm for the M16/M4. I proposed a 6.8mm, and yes you have a point. Any weapon can jam, but for Lance and jdun1911, my post about “hell” is relative to the amount of abuse other weapons (including ARs) can take compared to the M16/M4. For jdun1911, I would agree that the AR design has the potential to become the best on the battlefield. The AR is certainly the most versitile and accurate assault weapon on the battlefield, but the reliability issues apparent with the direct impingement gas system used in and the lack of kinetic energy delivered by the 5.56mm round has to be addressed. There are American companys that have addressed and solved both of these issues, and have taken the AR design to the next level of its evolutionary process.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16229 Steve Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:56:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16229 Daniel, thanks for the correction. Now that you mention it, I do remember you saying it (my memory is not great). Daniel, thanks for the correction. Now that you mention it, I do remember you saying it (my memory is not great).

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16210 Daniel E. Watters Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:33:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16210 As I said nearly 11 months ago, the event hosted by the Army last year was just a “show and tell” session, not a formal submission for testing. A formal Operational Requirements Document (ORD) has not been approved yet for any M4 carbine replacement. Until there is an approved ORD, there will be no solicitation. Until there is a solicitation, there will be no trials. As I said nearly 11 months ago, the event hosted by the Army last year was just a “show and tell” session, not a formal submission for testing. A formal Operational Requirements Document (ORD) has not been approved yet for any M4 carbine replacement. Until there is an approved ORD, there will be no solicitation. Until there is a solicitation, there will be no trials.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16138 Steve Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:37:59 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16138 I fully support the troops have the best weapon possible. I think the real issue is deciding what a replacement, if any, should be capable of doing. For example, sustained rate of fire, mean time between failure (in hot, desert, snow, arctic, tropical etc conditions). Remember, the Army is running a comparison of the M4 vs. many other possible replacements: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/25/list-of-possible-m4-replacements/ I fully support the troops have the best weapon possible. I think the real issue is deciding what a replacement, if any, should be capable of doing. For example, sustained rate of fire, mean time between failure (in hot, desert, snow, arctic, tropical etc conditions).

Remember, the Army is running a comparison of the M4 vs. many other possible replacements: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/25/list-of-possible-m4-replacements/

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16115 Steve Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:07:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16115 I just updated the post with clarification about the rate of fire: I just want to clarify a point mentioned by commenters below. If the solider fired his 12 magazines evenly over a 30 minute period he should have had no overheating problems (assuming the Army GPM info is correct). What we do not know is the period of continuous fire. As Bram, who has seen combat, said "Time moves very differently while under fire. It’s impossible to judge how fast those soldiers were actually firing.". Lance, I agree with you. Michael Bane put it well "As is far too often the case, the wars were fighting refuse to pay any attention to the specs.". The issue is not "Is the M4 the best weapon", but "can any 14" carbine stand up to that kind of abuse?". I just updated the post with clarification about the rate of fire:

I just want to clarify a point mentioned by commenters below. If the solider fired his 12 magazines evenly over a 30 minute period he should have had no overheating problems (assuming the Army GPM info is correct). What we do not know is the period of continuous fire. As Bram, who has seen combat, said “Time moves very differently while under fire. It’s impossible to judge how fast those soldiers were actually firing.”.

Lance, I agree with you.

Michael Bane put it well “As is far too often the case, the wars were fighting refuse to pay any attention to the specs.”. The issue is not “Is the M4 the best weapon”, but “can any 14″ carbine stand up to that kind of abuse?”.

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]]> By: Redchrome http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16113 Redchrome Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:57:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16113 typo above. should be "99% of the deployed soldiers probably couldn’t diagram a single reason why an AK47 is more reliable than an M1" This is not to impugn their abilities as soldiers or even shooters; just saying that being a soldier does not make you a gun geek. Feel free to prove me wrong; I want to be proud of our soldiers. Just remember, the plural of anecdote is not data; and the sort of people who read this blog are not even 1% of the population. typo above. should be “99% of the deployed soldiers probably couldn’t diagram a single reason why an AK47 is more reliable than an M1″

This is not to impugn their abilities as soldiers or even shooters; just saying that being a soldier does not make you a gun geek.

Feel free to prove me wrong; I want to be proud of our soldiers. Just remember, the plural of anecdote is not data; and the sort of people who read this blog are not even 1% of the population.

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]]> By: Redchrome http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16112 Redchrome Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:52:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16112 The thing that really bugs me about the article (apart from the hyperbole and technical inaccuracy) is the figure that '90% of the troops think their rifle is good'. 90% of the population probably think their car is a good design. Doesn't mean that it is. 9% of the deployed soldiers probably couldn't diagram a single reason why an AK47 is more reliable than an M16 (as opposed to repeating hearsay). As such, asking them if they're satisfied with their rifle is somewhat dubious. It is a common mistake for people to think that just because someone uses a tool, that they understand that tool and can make meaningful comparisons between it and similar tools. Secretaries use computers, but aren't often computer geeks. Doctors use knives, but aren't usually bladesmiths. Police and soldiers use guns; but this is far from making them gun experts. The thing that really bugs me about the article (apart from the hyperbole and technical inaccuracy) is the figure that ’90% of the troops think their rifle is good’.

90% of the population probably think their car is a good design. Doesn’t mean that it is. 9% of the deployed soldiers probably couldn’t diagram a single reason why an AK47 is more reliable than an M16 (as opposed to repeating hearsay). As such, asking them if they’re satisfied with their rifle is somewhat dubious.

It is a common mistake for people to think that just because someone uses a tool, that they understand that tool and can make meaningful comparisons between it and similar tools. Secretaries use computers, but aren’t often computer geeks. Doctors use knives, but aren’t usually bladesmiths. Police and soldiers use guns; but this is far from making them gun experts.

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]]> By: Redchrome http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16102 Redchrome Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:40:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16102 Small arms design may very well have reached certain limits; but no one has put all the good ideas together yet. There cannot be a 'perfect' rifle; each has its compromises. However, we can do a lot better than some of the broken-by-design items we see widely touted by people who don't compare the mechanics and failure modes of the designs. I have better things to do than argue on the Internet these days, so I'm going to restrain myself from doing so. I'm going to go out this weekend (like I do on most weekends) and teach people to shoot. I challenge everyone else to do the same. Go take your chosen rifle to an Appleseed Shoot, put 800-1200 rounds through it in a weekend, and see where and if it fails. This is nowhere as bad as a battlefield; but if you act conscienciously you'll learn from the experience anyway. Small arms design may very well have reached certain limits; but no one has put all the good ideas together yet. There cannot be a ‘perfect’ rifle; each has its compromises. However, we can do a lot better than some of the broken-by-design items we see widely touted by people who don’t compare the mechanics and failure modes of the designs.

I have better things to do than argue on the Internet these days, so I’m going to restrain myself from doing so. I’m going to go out this weekend (like I do on most weekends) and teach people to shoot. I challenge everyone else to do the same. Go take your chosen rifle to an Appleseed Shoot, put 800-1200 rounds through it in a weekend, and see where and if it fails. This is nowhere as bad as a battlefield; but if you act conscienciously you’ll learn from the experience anyway.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16051 jdun1911 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 04:19:56 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16051 Steve, I did a google search on AR15.com. From time to time that information pop up on forums. swisshegemonist, There was a guy on the AR15.com thread that was nearby and was listening to the radio when the SHTF. Those guys did have close air support (CAS) and all the air assets that was require for the entire fight. What they didn't have was more men. Casey, No weapons send to hell and back will work. It's isn't my opinion it is a fact. If the weapon is abuse enough it will fail. Period. There is no better rifle in the battlefield then the AR. If there is I would be all over it. Lance, I agree. There are a lot of people that do not understand how the AR works or why the US military is in love with it. They all think the US military high command has some grand sinister plan and hence do not want to replace the AR. The US military is in love with it because it is the best rifle in the world. Another thing people do not understand is that small arms has more or less reach it mechanical limits. All those new weapons on the block are recycle from older weapon system design. New body old soul. Steve,

I did a google search on AR15.com. From time to time that information pop up on forums.

swisshegemonist,

There was a guy on the AR15.com thread that was nearby and was listening to the radio when the SHTF. Those guys did have close air support (CAS) and all the air assets that was require for the entire fight. What they didn’t have was more men.

Casey,

No weapons send to hell and back will work. It’s isn’t my opinion it is a fact. If the weapon is abuse enough it will fail. Period. There is no better rifle in the battlefield then the AR. If there is I would be all over it.

Lance,

I agree. There are a lot of people that do not understand how the AR works or why the US military is in love with it. They all think the US military high command has some grand sinister plan and hence do not want to replace the AR. The US military is in love with it because it is the best rifle in the world.

Another thing people do not understand is that small arms has more or less reach it mechanical limits. All those new weapons on the block are recycle from older weapon system design. New body old soul.

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]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16050 Lance Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:40:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16050 I disagree with Casy. Theres no real 5.56 rifle thats so much better than a M-16. The German and British force have had there G-36 and L-85 weapons jam on them. Ive read about Soviet troops dureing the Soviet war have there Ak-74s jam in combat as well theres no clear gun which wont jam in the dust of afghanistain. A piston AR could help a bit but a European gun which some people here lover so much like a G36 or Sig552 have had problums with dust as well. The marines have had few if no complantes about 20inch M-16A4s. There is no perfect gun which will never jam. Anyone who thinks a gun is perfect in anyway is selling you beach front property in Arizona. Agree Steve? I disagree with Casy. Theres no real 5.56 rifle thats so much better than a M-16. The German and British force have had there G-36 and L-85 weapons jam on them. Ive read about Soviet troops dureing the Soviet war have there Ak-74s jam in combat as well theres no clear gun which wont jam in the dust of afghanistain. A piston AR could help a bit but a European gun which some people here lover so much like a G36 or Sig552 have had problums with dust as well. The marines have had few if no complantes about 20inch M-16A4s. There is no perfect gun which will never jam. Anyone who thinks a gun is perfect in anyway is selling you beach front property in Arizona.

Agree Steve?

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]]> By: Casey http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16047 Casey Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:36:50 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16047 I really should proof read my posts BEFORE I submit them. I really should proof read my posts BEFORE I submit them.

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]]> By: Casey http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/12/more-reports-on-m4-limitations-do-the-marines-have-the-right-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-16046 Casey Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:25:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8421#comment-16046 Oh, and here's one for Steve. There are a number of weapons you can send to hell and back that won't ever let you down. Unfortunately, for the fighting men and women of our armed forces, none of those are among the ranks of direct impingement ARs. Our soldiers deserve the best, the best is available, but they're just not getting it. I'm won't make any remarks as to who is to blame (General Mark Brown), but "good enough" just doesn't cut it these days. Oh, and here’s one for Steve. There are a number of weapons you can send to hell and back that won’t ever let you down. Unfortunately, for the fighting men and women of our armed forces, none of those are among the ranks of direct impingement ARs. Our soldiers deserve the best, the best is available, but they’re just not getting it. I’m won’t make any remarks as to who is to blame (General Mark Brown), but “good enough” just doesn’t cut it these days.

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